PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," U.W.
SYSTEM PRESIDENT TOMMY THOMPSON
IS HERE.
HE'LL DETAIL PLANS FOR OPENING
STATE UNIVERSITIES FOR THE FALL
SEMESTER.
LATEST FROM ONE OF THE NATION'S
TOP EXPERTS ON COVID-19
TRANSMISSION.
AND SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER
ZAC SCHULTZ INVESTIGATES HOW
POLICE UNIONS PLAY A ROLE IN ANY
MEANINGFUL CHANGES AHEAD.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR
JULY 24TH.
?
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.
>> WITH AN ANNUAL BUDGET OF
$6 BILLION, THE UNIVERSITY OF
WISCONSIN 26 CAMPUS SYSTEM IS
AMONG THE LARGEST IN THE
COUNTRY.
THIS WEEK EVEN AS THE SYSTEM
DETERMINES HOW TO SAFELY OPEN
FOR THE FALL SEMESTER, GOVERNOR
TONY EVERS ANNOUNCED
$250 MILLION IN PANDEMIC-RELATED
STATE PENDING CUTS.
THIS AFTER A 70 MILLION
REDUCTION IN MAY.
U.W. SYSTEM PRESIDENT TOMMY
THOMPSON RESPONDED ALMOST
IMMEDIATELY SAYING THE
UNIVERSITY SYSTEM ALREADY
ABSORBED MORE THAN ITS FAIR
SHARE OF CUTS LAST SPRING.
THIS DISCLAIMER, PBS WISCONSIN
IS PART OF U.W. MADISON.
LATE THIS WEEK I SPOKE WITH
SYSTEM PRESIDENT THOMPSON ABOUT
THE THREAT OF FURTHER BUDGET
CUTS AND ALSO ASKED HIM HOW THE
SYSTEM WAS PREPARING FOR SAFE
RETURN TO CAMPUS INSTRUCTION FOR
THE FALL TERM.
>> SECRETARY, GOVERNOR, NEW
PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY
SYSTEM, THANK YOU FOR BEING
HERE.
>> MY HONOR, FREDERICA, A
PLEASURE TO SEE YOU.
I REMEMBER FONDLY OUR DAYS WHEN
YOU USED TO INTERVIEW ME WHEN I
WAS GOVERNOR, SO VERY HAPPY TO
BE BACK ON YOUR PROGRAM AND
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR
HAVING ME.
>> WELL, THANK YOU.
WELL, JUST TO JUMP IN, CAN K-12
DISTRICTS IN CERTAIN PARTS OF
THE STATE DECIDING TO GO
VIRTUALLY FOR THE START OF THE
SCHOOL YEAR, HOW CAN THE U.W.
SAFELY OPEN TO EVEN A HYBRID OF
REMOTE AND IN-PERSON CLASSES
SAFELY?
>> WE ARE DEDICATED AND
PASSIONATE ABOUT MAKING SURE
THAT OUR PROFESSORS, OUR
INSTRUCTORS, OUR EMPLOYEES, AND
ABOVE ALL, OUR STUDENTS ARE
GOING TO BE SAFE.
YOU GOT TO REMEMBER THAT I WAS
SECRETARY OF HEALTH, AND I WOULD
NEVER PUT ANYBODY AT HARM'S WAY
IF I CAN HELP IT AND WE ARE
DOING EVERYTHING, WE ARE
PREPARING OUR CLASSROOMS, MAKING
SURE OUR LARGE CLASSROOMS ARE
NOT UTILIZED, EVERY STUDENT HAS
TO HAVE A MASK ON WHEN THEY ARE
INSIDE.
ALSO ASKING THEM TO WEAR THEIR
MASKS OUTSIDE IF THEY CANNOT
SOCIALLY DISTANCE.
AND ENTRANCE AND EXITS, A LOT OF
THEM ARE ONE WAY.
MAKING SURE OUR CLASSROOMS GOT
THE HIGHEST CLEANING STANDARDS
PUT DOWN BY C.D.C.
WE ARE DEDICATED TO THAT.
WE ARE PUTTING INSTRUCTIONS OUT
DAILY AS TO HOW TO MAKE SURE OUR
CLASSROOMS ARE SAFE.
WE FEEL THAT WE ARE GOING TO
HAVE OUR CLASSES AND CLASSROOMS
AS PUBLICLY SAFE AND AS SAFE FOR
OUR EMPLOYEES AS WE POSSIBLY CAN
AND ABOVE ALL, OUR STUDENTS.
SO I FEEL VERY CONFIDENT.
WE ARE OPENING ON SEPTEMBER 2ND,
AND I'M HERE TO TELL YOU I'M
DEDICATED TO MAKE SURE THAT
EVERYBODY WILL BE SAFE.
>> YOUNG ADULTS, AS YOU KNOW,
WERE IN LARGE MEASURE
RESPONSIBLE FOR KIND OF THE MOST
RECENT SURGE.
HOW CAN THE UNIVERSITY MANAGE
THEIR BEHAVIOR ON AND OFF
CAMPUSES?
>> WELL, THERE'S NO WAY THAT YOU
ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO,
FREDERICA, MANAGE STUDENTS OFF
CAMPUS BUT WHAT WE ARE DOING IS
WE ARE ASKING STUDENTS TO WEAR
THEIR MASK, PUTTING OUT A LOT OF
INFORMATION, WE ARE ASKING
STUDENTS TO GET FLU VACCINATED,
AND HAVE THE VACCINE, YOU KNOW,
PURCHASED SO WE CAN HELP
STUDENTS GET VACCINATED.
WE ARE PUTTING OUT A LOT OF
INSTRUCTIONS.
WE ARE TALKING TO A LOT OF
STUDENTS AND WE ARE ENCOURAGING
STUDENTS AND THE MOST IMPORTANT
WAY TO DO IT HAVING STUDENTS
TALK TO OTHER STUDENTS.
LET'S GE SAFE, LET'S BE HEALTHY.
WE ARE GOING TO ENJOY CAMPUS,
BUT WE HAVE TO BE HEALTHY TO
ENJOY IT.
THIS IS THE MESSAGE GOING OUT,
AND USING MY PUBLIC HEALTH DAYS,
MY PUBLIC HEALTH HAT ON, I'M
GOING TO DO EVERYTHING I
POSSIBLY CAN THROUGH SOCIAL
NETWORKING, THROUGH SIGNS,
THROUGH ENCOURAGEMENT, USING
STUDENTS, USING OUR PROFESSORS
TO MAKE SURE OUR STUDENTS ARE
SAFE BOTH ON AND OFF CAMPUS.
>> NOW, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY DEEP
INTO THE BOOKS AT THE U.W.
SYSTEM.
WHAT KIND OF FINANCIAL -- WHAT
KIND OF FINANCIAL HIT IS THE
U.W. DEALING WITH BECAUSE OF
CLOSURES LAST SPRING?
>> WELL, HUGE.
AMAZING THING.
WE HAD TO REFUND PRO RATA THE
SHARE OF THE STUDENT DORMS, THE
FOOD WE PURCHASED.
A LOT OF FOOD WE PURCHASED FOR
THE FULL SEMESTER AND HAD TO
GIVE IT AWAY, SO IT WAS A
FINANCIAL REALLY STRONG HIT.
HARDER ON SOME CAMPUSES THAN
OTHERS, BUT OVERALL, IT WAS
REALLY TOUGH FOR THE SYSTEM AND
NOW, AND WE ALSO GOT IN THE
FIRST SEMESTER WE ALSO GOT HIT
BY ABOUT $50 MILLION FROM THE
STATE OF WISCONSIN, WE ARE GOING
TO HAVE TO TAKE ANOTHER HIT.
SO, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN
SYSTEM HAS FINANCIAL PROBLEMS.
BUT I AM CONFIDENT, I AM
CONFIDENT WORKING WITH THE
GOVERNOR'S OFFICE, WORKING WITH
D.O.A., WORKING WITH MY CONTACTS
IN WASHINGTON THAT WE ARE GOING
TO BE ABLE TO GET ENOUGH STATE
AND FEDERAL DOLLARS WITH THE
HELP OF WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO,
MANAGING THIS PROBLEM AT THE
SYSTEM LEVEL, WE ARE GOING TO
MAKE IT.
WE ARE GOING TO MAKE IT AND WE
ARE GOING TO COME OUT STRONGER
NEXT YEAR THAN WE ARE THIS YEAR.
>> BECAUSE AS YOU MENTIONED,
GOVERNOR TONY EVERS HAS
ANNOUNCED ADDITIONAL
$250 MILLION BUDGET CUT TO STATE
AGENCIES AND PRESUMABLY THE U.W.
WOULD HAVE TO TAKE A PORTION OF
THAT.
IS THERE ANY PORTION OF THAT
THAT YOU BELIEVE THE SYSTEM CAN
TAKE AND STILL EMBARK ON
REOPENING AND PROVIDING ALL OF
THE KINDS OF P.P.E., ETC., THAT
YOU NEED TO DO TO DO SO SAFELY?
>> WELL, THERE ARE TWO POTS OF
MONEY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.
THE STATE MONEY THAT THE
GOVERNOR IS TALKING ABOUT IS
MONEY THAT CAN BE LAPSED BY THE
GOVERNOR AND HIS OFFICE, AND WE
ARE PUSHING BACK ON THAT, BUT WE
ARE TRYING TO ACCOMMODATE THE
GOVERNOR AND THE D.O.A.
WE ARE TRYING TO SHOW HOW
DIFFICULT IT'S GOING TO BE AND
WHY IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE
PROBLEMATIC FOR THE SYSTEM.
BUT WE ARE WORKING WITH THE
GOVERNOR AND HIS STAFF AND
D.O.A.
WE WANT TO BE -- WE DON'T WANT
TO BE CONFRONTATIONAL, WE WANT
TO BE COOPERATIVE AND WANT TO
MAKE SURE THAT THEY UNDERSTAND
OUR FINANCIAL CONDITIONS.
WE ARE ALSO WORKING IN
WASHINGTON TO GET MORE FEDERAL
DOLLARS.
AND AS YOU KNOW, I'VE ASKED THE
GOVERNOR FOR $110 MILLION FOR
PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT,
AS WELL AS FOR TRACKING AND
TRACING.
AND TESTING.
AND WE THINK, YOU KNOW, WITH
THAT MONEY, IF WE COULD GET 100
MILLION, WE WOULD BE ABLE TO
DEFINITELY OPEN, WELL, WE ARE
GOING TO OPEN UP, WE'LL BE SAFE.
BUT WOULD BE MUCH MORE HELPFUL
IF WE HAD THE EXTRA MONEY FOR
TESTING AND TRACING AND FOR
PURCHASING THE PROTECTIVE
EQUIPMENT.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE
LIKELIHOOD IS OF GETTING THAT
KIND OF MONEY?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS AN
UPHILL BATTLE.
NOTHING IS EASY WHEN YOU ARE
ACTING PRESIDENT OF THE
UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN SYSTEM,
I'M FINDING OUT.
BUT WE ARE GOING TO DO
EVERYTHING WE POSSIBLY CAN.
I AM AGGRESSIVELY SEEKING MONEY
FROM THE STATE AND FEDERAL
LEVELS.
I THINK THAT WE ARE GOING TO
BE -- I'M CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC.
I COME FROM ELROY, WISCONSIN.
YOU HAVE TO BE CAUTIOUSLY
OPTIMISTIC JUST WAKING UP IN THE
MORNING, AND SO I FEEL THAT WE
ARE GOING TO DO IT, AND WE ARE
GOING TO BE -- WE ARE GOING TO
GET THROUGH THIS, AND WE ARE
GOING TO BE ABLE TO BE STRONGER
AND HEALTHIER NEXT SPRING THAN
WE ARE TODAY.
I AM CONFIDENT OF THAT.
>> WE LEAVE IT THERE.
FORMER GOVERNOR TOMMY THOMPSON,
NOW PRESIDENT OF THE U.W.
SYSTEM.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US.
>> FREDERICA, IT'S ALWAYS A
PLEASURE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> IT'S BEEN ANOTHER
RECORD-SETTING WEEK OF COVID-19
NUMBERS IN WISCONSIN, INCLUDING
THE FIRST DAY OF OVER 1,000
POSITIVE CASES REPORTED.
SECRETARY OF HEALTH DESIGNEE
ANDREA PALM SAID THERE ARE TWO
MAIN REASONS FOR THE CONTINUED
INCREASE.
>> THESE NUMBERS ARE AT LEAST IN
PART A REFLECTION OF TWO
PATTERNS.
SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF CASES THAT
REPORTED ATTENDING GATHERINGS
LIKE PARTIES AND BARS AND
BARBECUES AND INCREASE IN CASES
AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE.
>> WE TAKE WISCONSIN'S ALARMING
COVID-19 NUMBERS TO MINNESOTA
NOW WHERE WE ARE JOINED BY ONE
OF THE NATION'S TOP
EPIDEMIOLOGISTS, DR. MICHAEL
OSTERHOLM.
DIRECTOR FOR THE CENTER OF
INFECTIOUS DISEASE AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA.
DOCTOR, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> WISCONSIN HAS SEEN A SURGE IN
POSITIVE CASES CHARTING DAY OVER
DAY, RECORD NUMBERS JUST THIS
WEEK.
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING NOW?
>> WELL, THIS VIRUS IS DOING
WHAT IT WAS MADE TO DO.
INFECT HUMANS.
AND THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO TO
STOP THAT FROM HAPPENING IS HOW
WE DISTANCE OURSELVES FROM
PEOPLE, HOW WE MAKE SURE THAT WE
ARE NOT SHARING AIR WITH EACH
OTHER.
THAT IS WHERE THE VIRUS IS
LARGELY BEING TRANSMITTED NOW.
AND UNFORTUNATELY, AROUND
MEMORIAL DAY WE DECIDED THAT WE
WERE DONE TRYING TO DEAL WITH
THE VIRUS AND WE WENT ON TO OUR
EVERYDAY LIVES AS WE HAD LARGELY
DONE BEFORE AND THE VIRUS NOW IS
BEING TRANSMITTED AT LEVELS THAT
ARE VERY CONCERNING.
>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE FACT
THAT PEOPLE DON'T SEEM TO
UNDERSTAND THAT OR BE WILLING TO
DISTANCE?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, AT THIS POINT
I THINK WE ARE GOING TO BE
SEEING SOME CHANGES IN THAT.
ONLY BECAUSE WHEN THIS ALL
STARTED IT SEEMED TO BE A BLUE
STATE OR A RED STATE OR BLUE
COUNTY OR RED COUNTY KIND OF
EVENT.
AND WHAT'S HAPPENING IS IT'S
REALLY BECOMING A COVID COLOR
EVENT, WE ARE SEEING MORE AND
MORE CASES OCCURRING IN URBAN
AND RURAL AREAS, WE ARE SEEING
MORE DEATHS IN PEOPLE WE KNOW IN
LOVED ONES, AND IN THE END WHEN
YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT
RIGHT NOW ABOUT 8 TO 9% OF THE
U.S. POPULATION HAS BEEN
INFECTED WITH THIS VIRUS TO
DATE, YOU THINK ABOUT ALL THE
PAIN AND SUFFERING, ECONOMIC
DISRUPTION AND DEATHS THAT HAVE
OCCURRED JUST WITH THAT 8 TO 9%,
THINK WHAT IT'S GOING TO TAKE TO
GET US TO PROBABLY 50 TO 70% OF
THE POPULATION INFECTED BEFORE
WE WOULD REACH WHAT WE CALL HERD
IMMUNITY, A STATE WHERE THE
TRANSMISSION WOULD SLOW DOWN.
NOW WE ARE HOPING WE CAN GET A
VACCINE TO BE AVAILABLE BEFORE
WE GET THERE THROUGH ILLNESS,
BUT RATHER THROUGH PROTECTION
WITH THE VACCINE.
BUT OVER THE NEXT 6 TO 10 MONTHS
AT A MINIMUM, WE ARE GOING TO
SEE LOTS AND LOTS OF THIS
TRANSMISSION UNLESS PEOPLE
UNDERSTAND THAT THIS, YOU KNOW,
WE WON'T WIN A DEBATE WITH THIS
VIRUS.
YOU HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF
WINNING A DEBATE WITH 2,000
TIRED ANGRY 2-YEAR-OLDS THAN YOU
DO WITH THIS VIRUS.
AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE
HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD YET.
>> DID IT SURPRISE YOU THAT THIS
VIRUS TURNED RED AND BLUE OR
POLITICAL?
>> YOU KNOW, GIVEN THE
CONDITIONS IN THE COUNTRY BEFORE
THIS PANDEMIC BEGAN, AND
REALIZING THAT IT GOES TO THE
VERY HEART OF WHO WE ARE AS A
SOCIETY IN TERMS OF ECONOMIC
ISSUES, ACCENTUATING THE ISSUES
WITH CLASS AND FINANCIAL
SECURITY, IT'S NOT SURPRISING.
THE POINT IS THOUGH IF THERE WAS
EVER A TIME THAT ANYTHING COULD
AND SHOULD RALLY US TO COME
TOGETHER, IT'S ABOUT THIS VIRUS.
THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, ONE POLITICAL PARTY OR ONE
SKIN COLOR OR ONE GEOGRAPHIC
LOCATION.
IT'S ABOUT US AGAINST THE VIRUS.
AND IF WE CAN JUST STICK WITH
THAT, IF WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT
WE ARE ALL IN THIS TO HELP EACH
OTHER, I THINK THAT THAT WILL
SURELY BE A START FOR US TO
ACTUALLY HAVE MORE IMPACT ON
THIS VIRUS.
PLEASE DON'T FORGET, THERE ARE
LESSONS TO BE LEARNED HERE THAT
HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED.
IF WE LOOK AT MANY OF THE
COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD,
EARLIER THIS SPRING IN THE SAME
DIRE STRAITS WE WERE WHEN WE SAW
THIS VIRUS GOING THROUGH NEW
YORK AND PLACES LIKE THAT,
CAUSING THE DAMAGE, THESE
COUNTRIES STAYED THE COURSE.
THEY GOT THE VIRUS LEVELS DOWN
TO A VERY LOW LEVEL AND THEN
THEY COULD USE TESTING AND
CONTACT TRACING TO TRY TO KEEP
THEM DOWN.
WE NEVER DID THAT.
WE DECIDED WE WERE DONE BEFORE
WE GOT THOSE NUMBERS DOWN LIKE
THAT AND NOW YOU ARE SEEING THE
SITUATION AND I THINK IT'S NOT
UNTIL WE ACTUALLY TAKE SOME MORE
EXTREME MEASURES TO DO A RE-DO,
TO TRY TO GET THE NUMBERS DOWN,
TO TRY TO DO THE TESTING,
CONTACT TRACING, FOLLOW-UP
BEFORE WE ARE GOING TO SEE
REALLY REDUCTION IN THESE CASES.
THEY ARE JUST GOING TO CONTINUE
OTHERWISE.
>> IF WE DID A RE-DO, COULD WE
REDUCE THE INFECTION RATE TO,
SAY, NEAR 0 BEFORE WE COULD SEE
A VACCINE?
>> YOU KNOW, LOOK AT ALL THE
OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD
THAT HAVE DONE IT.
SOME SAY IT'S THE ASIAN
COUNTRIES THAT ARE UNIQUE, AND
LOOK AT THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES,
THEY HAVE DONE IT TOO.
IT'S VERY POSSIBLE.
WE HAVE THE TOOLS IN THE
COUNTRY, DO WE HAVE THE
POLITICAL WILL TO DO IT AND HOW
ARE WE GOING TO TAKE CARE OF
THOSE WHO MIGHT SUFFER UNDER
FURTHER RESTRICTIONS.
ECONOMICALLY, PEOPLE NEED TO
WORK, PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE JOB,
NEED TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO
SCHOOL WE KNOW ALL THOSE THINGS.
AS A SOCIETY AND THE NEXT YEAR
WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WE MAY
HAVE THE COVID YEAR.
WHETHER IT'S ABOUT SCHOOLS,
WORK, PUBLICLY, GET OVER THE
COVID YEAR, GET IT DONE, GET
BEHIND US AND MOVE ON.
IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THOSE
THINGS, WE ARE JUST GOING TO BE
IN THIS LIMBO LAND WHERE
BASICALLY YOU ARE GOING TO SEE A
HUGE FOREST FIRE OF THE VIRUS
TRANSMISSION THROUGH THE COUNTRY
AND LOOKING FOR EVERY PIECE OF
HUMAN WOOD IT CAN BURN AND WILL
FIND MANY OF THEM.
>> AS TO A VACCINE, HOW FAR ARE
WE FROM HAVING AN EFFECTIVE ONE?
>> THIS IS THE TRILLION DOLLAR
QUESTION.
WE WILL HAVE VACCINES, WE HAVE
OVER 200 RIGHT NOW TO SEE HOW
THEY WILL PROTECT.
THE CHALLENGE, THIS IS THE
CORONAVIRUS, HISTORICALLY
UNSATISFIED ABILITY TO DEVELOP A
VACCINE THAT MAY PROVIDE DURABLE
OR LONG-TERM IMMUNITY.
WHEN WE FIND THE EFFECTIVE
VACCINE, WHAT DOES IT MEAN, WHAT
IT PROTECTS ONLY 50% OF THE
POPULATION AND NOT THE
POPULATION AT RISK FOR SERIOUS
DISEASE, IS THAT CONSIDERED
ACCEPTABLE.
AND WHAT IF WE FIND ONE THAT
WORKS FOR 6 TO 12 AND 18 MONTHS
AND KEEP VACCINATING LIKE
INFLUENZA, INTERNATIONAL LEVEL
WOULD BE AN INCREDIBLE EFFORT TO
BE ABLE TO DO THAT.
A LOT OF QUESTIONS LEFT AND
FINALLY ASSURE IT'S SAFE AND
DECISIONS WHETHER TO GO FORWARD
WITH THE VACCINE.
WE CAN'T WAIT FOR FIVE YEARS TO
FIND OUT HOW DURABLE THE
IMMUNITY IS BEFORE WE USE IT.
WE ARE GOING TO BE DOING
INTENSIVE STUDIES, LOOK AT THE
POTENTIAL FOR REACTIONS EARLY
ON, AND ALSO TELL THE PUBLIC
WE'LL KEEP THEM INFORMED.
MOST OF ALL, WE NEED A VACCINE.
WE ARE HEADED BACK TO WHERE WE
WERE IN LATE APRIL OR EARLY MAY.
IF YOU THINK ABOUT THIS, THE
FIRST WEEK OF MARCH IN THE
COUNTRY, COVID-19 WAS NOT THE
TOP 75 CAUSES OF DEATH.
BY APRIL AND MAY, THE NUMBER ONE
CAUSE OF DEATH EVERY DAY.
NOW SAW THE NUMBERS COME DOWN
AS A RESULT OF THE IMPROVEMENT
BUT UNFORTUNATELY THEY ARE GOING
RIGHT BACK UP AND VERY POSSIBLE
SOON COVID WILL AGAIN BE THE
NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF DEATH IN
THIS COUNTRY.
>> WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE,
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, THANK YOU
VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US AND
HOPE TO SPEAK WITH YOU AGAIN.
>> THANK YOU.
>> HOMELAND SECURITY AGENTS
ENGAGE CITY OF PORTLAND
PROTESTORS EVERY NIGHT THIS WEEK
UNDER ORDERS TO PROTECT THE
FEDERAL COURTHOUSE FROM
VANDALISM.
THIS WEEK PRESIDENT TRUMP
ANNOUNCED MORE FEDERAL
ENFORCEMENT TO OTHER CITIES,
CHICAGO, ALBUQUERQUE, KANSAS
CITY, AND MILWAUKEE.
A GROUP OF SENATE DEMOCRAT,
INCLUDING TAMMY BALDWIN, SAYS A
LIST OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE
DEPLOYMENT OF FEDERAL FORCES TO
WILLIAM BARR AND ACTING HOMELAND
SECURITY SECRETARY CHAD WOLF.
ALL PART OF THE TRUMP
ADMINISTRATION TAKING AGGRESSIVE
RESPONSE IN THE CATALYST AFTER
THE KILLING OF GEORGE FLOYD.
AND GOVERNOR SENT A LETTER.
LAST MONTH PROTESTORS IN MADISON
DESTROYED STATUES ON THE CAPITOL
SQUARE.
THE BOARD THAT OVERSEES CAPITOL
RESTORATION WILL RESTORE THE
STATUES, FORWARD, AND THE STATUE
OF ABOLITIONIST AND SOLDIER HANS
CHRISTIAN HEG WILL BE RETURNED
TO THEIR PEDESTALS.
TWO MONTHS SINCE THE KILLING OF
GEORGE FLOYD IN MINNEAPOLIS.
A NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT
POLICE REFORM IS ONGOING.
ONE OF THE ISSUES, HOW TO MAKE
SURE THE "BAD APPLES" IN THE
POLICE PROFESSION CAN BE REMOVED
FROM THE FORCE.
ZAC SCHULTZ HAS BEEN WORKING
WITH OUR COLLEAGUES FROM
WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO AND
WISCONTEXT TO EXAMINE POLICE
UNION CONTRACTS AND THE ROLE
THEY PLAY IN PROTECTING BAD
COPS.
>> BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT
IS HIGHLIGHTING POLICING UNIONS
AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY IN
PROTECTING OFFICERS.
YOU'VE PROBABLY SEEN STORIES
ABOUT THE BAD COPS WHEN GET
REINSTATED TO THE FORCE.
SHIELDED FROM CONSEQUENCES BY A
BUREAUCRATIC SYSTEM AND A UNION
CONTRACT.
>> YOU REACT, I REACT.
>> SO, WE HAVE TO TALK ABOUT
LIMITING THE POWER OF POLICE
UNIONS.
>> THE CO-FOUNDER OF A
NON-PROFIT GROUP FOCUSSED ON
ELIMINATING POLICE VIOLENCE.
IT TRACKS CONTRACTS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY AND A LIST OF PROVISIONS
WHICH IT SAYS BLOCK
ACCOUNTABILITY, LIKE GIVING
ACCUSED OFFICERS ACCESS TO VIDEO
AND EVIDENCE BEFORE THEY ARE
INTERVIEWED, NOT ALLOWING
OFFICERS TO BE INTERVIEWED AFTER
AN INCIDENT, AND POLICIES THAT
ERASE OLD MISCONDUCT RECORDS
AFTER A FEW YEARS.
>> THE BEST CHIEF AND THE BEST
MAYOR, THEY ARE LIMITED WHAT
THEY CAN DO BECAUSE IT'S
NEGOTIATED AWAY.
>> WE WANTED TO KNOW WHETHER
PROVISIONS ARE IN UNION
CONTRACTS IN WISCONSIN.
ALONG WITH OUR COLLEAGUES AT
WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO AND
WISCONTEXT, WE EXAMINE THE
POLICE UNION CONTRACTS FOR EIGHT
CITIES.
MILWAUKEE, WAUKESHA, RACINE,
KENOSHA, MADISON, BELOIT, GREEN
BAY, AND WAUSAU.
WHAT WE FOUND IS THAT WISCONSIN
IS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THE REST
OF THE COUNTRY.
>> THERE'S A LEVEL OF
TRANSPARENCY, ACCOUNTABILITY AND
INDEPENDENCE THAT EXISTS IN
WISCONSIN THAT DOES NOT EXIST
ELSEWHERE.
>> JIM PALMER, EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF WPPA.
WISCONSIN'S LARGEST POLICE
OFFICER UNION.
SHERIFF DEPUTIES AND PRISON
GUARDS.
>> OVER 10,000 MEMBERS FROM MORE
THAN 300 LOCAL ASSOCIATION
AFFILIATES.
>> MOST POLICE UNION CONTRACTS
IN WISCONSIN HAVE LITTLE TO SAY
DISCIPLINE.
>> WE DON'T HAVE LANGUAGE --
>> STATE LAW SAYS POLICE
MISCONDUCT IN WISCONSIN IS
GOVERNED BY LOCAL POLICE AND
FIRE COMMISSIONS.
CITIZEN BOARDS WITH MEMBERS
APPOINTED BY THE MAYOR.
>> LEGITIMATE FORM OF CIVILIAN
CONTROL AND HAVE EXISTED IN
WISCONSIN OVER 100 YEARS.
>> NO MAYOR IN WISCONSIN CAN
FIRE A POLICE OFFICER.
OUTSIDE OF MILWAUKEE, NO POLICE
CHIEF CAN EITHER.
TYPICALLY, INTERNAL
INVESTIGATION WILL HAND OVER
EVIDENCE AND A RECOMMENDATION TO
THE P.F.C. AND IT WILL DECIDE
THE PUNISHMENT.
SECOND BIG DIFFERENCE IN
WISCONSIN.
>> VAST MAJORITY OF LAW
ENFORCEMENT OFFICER IN THE STATE
OF WISCONSIN CAN ARBITRATE THE
DISCIPLINE.
>> ARBITRATION IS OFTEN BLAMED
ANY TIME A BAD UNION EMPLOYEE
KEEPS THEIR JOB.
>> THESE OFFICERS AND MANY
OTHERS WERE FIRED AND ALL OF
THEM GOT THEIR JOBS BACK THANKS
TO A POLICE UNION CONTRACT AND
STATE LAW THAT LEAVES FINAL
PUNISHMENT IN THE HANDS OF AN
ARBITRATOR.
>> ARBITRATOR BASICALLY LISTENS
TO THE PARTIES AND MAKES A
DECISION.
KIND OF LIKE BEING A JUDGE BUT
IT'S A WHOLE LOT LESS FORMAL.
>> SUE BAUMAN IS AN ARBITRATOR
RULED ON LAW ENFORCEMENT
DISCIPLINE CASES IN WISCONSIN
AND MINNESOTA.
THE ARBITRATORS ARE SUPPOSED TO
BE NEUTRAL.
BUT BOTH SIDES GET TO INFLUENCE
WHO HEARS THE CASE.
>> THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT
UNIONS AND MANAGEMENT KEEP SCORE
ON ARBITRATORS, THEY KNOW BETTER
THAN ARBITRATORS KNOW HOW MANY
TIMES AN ARBITRATOR HAS FOUND
FOR THE UNION OR FOR THE
EMPLOYER.
>> IN WISCONSIN, SHERIFF'S
DEPUTIES CAN ARBITRATE
DISCIPLINE, EVEN THOUGH IT IS
RARE.
BAUMAN IS ALSO THE FORMER MAYOR
OF MADISON, AND SHE SAYS
WISCONSIN'S P.F.C. MODEL IS NOT
PERFECT.
>> THE FACT THAT ALL DISCIPLINE
HAS TO GO THROUGH THE P.F.C. AND
THAT THE POLICE CHIEF CAN ONLY
MAKE A RECOMMENDATION, AND THE
MAYOR HAS ABSOLUTELY NO SAY
DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME.
>> BAUMAN SAYS NO MATTER WHETHER
IT'S ARBITRATION OR A P.F.C.,
THE BIGGEST FACTOR IN
DISCIPLINING A POLICE OFFICER IS
WHETHER THEIR SUPERVISORS DID
THEIR JOB IN PRESENTING THE
EVIDENCE.
>> THE EMPLOYEE BROKE THE RULES
AND THE EMPLOYER SHOWS THAT TO
THE ARBITRATOR.
THE ARBITRATOR WILL UPHOLD THE
DECISION.
>> HOW MANY YEARS HAVE WE HEARD
YOU CAN'T FIRE A BAD TEACHER,
AND NOW WHAT WE ARE HEARING
WELL, YOU CAN'T FIRE A BAD COP.
>> DON TAYLOR, PROFESSOR AT THE
UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN SCHOOL
FOR WORKERS AND SPECIALIZES IN
LABOR RELATIONS.
HE SAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT
PROTECTION IN POLICE CONTRACTS
IS DUE PROCESS.
>> NOT JUST POLICE CONTRACTS,
BUT ALL CONTRACTS CONTAIN SOME
SORT OF PROVISION THAT THE
EMPLOYER HAS TO FOLLOW SOME TYPE
OF DUE PROCESS IN ORDER TO
DISCIPLINE OR TERMINATE ANY
EMPLOYEE.
>> TAYLOR SAYS GETTING
DISCIPLINE TO STICK COMES DOWN
TO MANAGEMENT FOLLOWING THE
PROPER STEPS.
>> IN 70% OF CASES WHERE AN
EMPLOYEE WAS REINSTATED IT WAS
DUE TO MANAGEMENT ERROR,
OVERLOOKING MITIGATING
CIRCUMSTANCES, NOT CREATING A
PAPER TRAIL, THINGS LIKE THAT.
>> WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT POLICE
UNION CONTRACTS IS WHETHER THOSE
STEPS INCLUDE STRICT TIMELINES,
AND LETTING THE OFFICER REVIEW
THE EVIDENCE BEFORE AN
INTERVIEW.
TAYLOR HAS DONE WORK FOR POLICE
UNIONS IN WISCONSIN AND SAYS IF
THOSE ITEMS ARE IN THE CONTRACT,
THEY DIDN'T GET THERE BY
THEMSELVES.
>> WE SHOULDN'T FORGET THOSE
WERE NOT JUST SIMPLY CARVED INTO
STONE BY THE POLICE OFFICERS AND
THEIR UNION, THE MUNICIPALITY OR
WHATEVER GOVERNMENT ENTITY THEY
WORK FOR AGREED TO THOSE THINGS.
>> THERE'S ALWAYS ITEMS IN THE
CONTRACT WE WISH WE COULD HAVE.
>> WHICH BRINGS US TO THE
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND
CHIEF ALFONSO MORALES.
>> YOU READ BETWEEN THE LINES,
COMMIT CRIME THEY LOSE THEIR JOB
AFTER DUE PROCESS.
>> THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE IS
TREATED DIFFERENTLY, AND THAT
EXTENDS TO THE POLICE
DEPARTMENT.
THE ONLY SPECIAL PROVISION
RELATED TO DISCIPLINE IN THE
UNION CONTRACT SAYS OFFICERS CAN
REVIEW BODYCAM AND SQUAD CAR
VIDEO BEFORE BEING INTERVIEWED
ABOUT AN INCIDENT.
HERE THE CHIEF OF POLICE IMPOSES
DISCIPLINE AND THE P.F.C. IS
CALLED THE FIRE AND POLICE
COMMISSION AND IT ACTS AS A
COURT OF APPEALS TO THE CHIEF'S
DISCIPLINE.
>> THE FIRE POLICE COMMISSION
HERE
HEARS IT, DONE PROPERLY, AND
FOCUSSES ON DISCIPLINE.
>> CHIEF MORALES CAME UP THROUGH
THE RANKS, HAS SEEN HOW THE
UNION WORKS.
>> SOMETIMES THE ENTIRE
ORGANIZATION, UNION MEMBERS SAY
THAT PERSON SHOULD BE PUSHED OUT
OF THE DEPARTMENT, THEY ARE
GIVING LAW ENFORCEMENT A BAD
IMAGE.
>> AS THE DEBATE OVER POLICE
REFORM CONTINUES AT BOTH THE
LOCAL AND STATEWIDE LEVEL, CHIEF
MORALES SAYS THERE IS NOT A
PERFECT SOLUTION.
>> THERE'S PROS AND CONS TO
EITHER WAY.
I DON'T THINK EITHER -- THERE'S
NO SYSTEM THAT'S PERFECT.
>> REPORTING FROM MADISON, I'M
ZAC SCHULTZ FOR "HERE AND NOW."
>> EARLIER THIS WEEK PROTESTORS
IN MILWAUKEE GATHERED OUTSIDE A
MEETING OF THE FIRE AND POLICE
COMMISSION TO CALL FOR CHIEF
MORALES FIRING.
THE COMMISSION DECLINED TO FIRE
THE CHIEF BUT IS CALLING FOR
MORE TIMELY REPORTS ON
INVESTIGATIONS, DISCIPLINE AND
PROMOTION.
THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.
?
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS