PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> KENOSHA.
NO CHARGES AGAINST A POLICE
OFFICER IN THE SHOOTING OF JACOB
BLAKE.
A COMMUNITY IS DIVIDED BY THE
DECISION.
WASHINGTON D.C., DEADLY VIOLENCE
AS EXTREME TRUMP SUPPORTERS
RANSACK THE U.S. CAPITOL AS THE
PRESIDENT WATCHES THE CARNAGE ON
TELEVISION.
CONGRESS RECONVENED CERTIFYING
THE ELECTORAL VOTES CEILING THE
BIDEN-HARRIS VICT TORI AND NOW
THERE ARE CALLS FOR THE REMOVAL
OF PRESIDENT TRUMP.
>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW,"
REPRESENTATIVES POCAN AND
GROTHMAN ARE HERE.
THE POLICING EXPERT ON THE JACOB
BLAKE CASE IS HERE TO EXPLAIN
HIS RECOMMENDATION FOR NO
CHARGES IN THE SHOOTING.
WE'LL HEAR FROM A KENOSHA
COMMUNITY ORGANIZER WHO IS ALSO
A BLAKE FAMILY FRIEND.
AND ZAC SCHULTZ REPORTS ON THE
FIRST WEEK OF THE LEGISLATIVE
SESSION AT THE STATE CAPITOL.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR
JANUARY 8.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.
>> MR. PRESIDENT, YOU HAVE GOT
TO STOP THIS.
YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN
CALL THIS OFF.
CALL IT OFF.
>> THAT WAS WISCONSIN U.S.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE GALLAGHER IN
A TWEET DURING THE SIEGE ON THE
U.S. CAPITOL ON WEDNESDAY.
HE WENT ON TO VOTE TO CERTIFY
THE HE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES
OF STATES AS HE HAD SUPPORTED
BEFORE THE RIOTING.
TAMMY BALDWIN AND RON JOHNSON
ALSO VOTED TO CERTIFY, THOUGH
JOHNSON WAS FULLY BEHIND VOTING
TO REJECT UNTIL THE CAPITOL WAS
OVERRUN.
WISCONSIN'S OTHER MEMBERS OF
CONGRESS, SCOTT FITZGERALD AND
U.S.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM TIFFANY TIFFANY VOTED TO REJECT
ELECTORAL VOTES.
THOSE HAVE THE STATE'S LARGEST
NEWSPAPER CALLING FOR THEM AND
SENATOR JOHNSON TO BE
IMMEDIATELY EXPELLED FROM THEIR
SEATS OR TO RESIGN AS MEMBERS OF
WHAT'S BEEN DUBBED THE SEDITION
CAUCUS.
TOUGH WORDS FOR ACTIONS IN A
FAILED ATTEMPT TO OVER OVERTURN
RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.
WE WILL BE JOINED BY GLENN
GROTHMAN.
JOINING US NOW IS DEMOCRATIC
MARK POCAN AND THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> AT THIS POINT, YOU ARE AMONG
THOSE CALLING TO IMPEACH
PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT WHY WITH
ONLY 12 DAYS LEFT IN HIS TERM?
>> BECAUSE WITH 14 DAYS LEFT IN
HIS TERM WE HAD AN ATTEMPTED
COUP ON THE U.S. CAPITOL.
DONALD TRUMP IS NOT NORMAL BY
ANY STRETCH OF THE DEFINITION.
NO PREVIOUS DEMOCRATIC OR
REPUBLICAN HAS BROUGHT FOLLOWERS
INTO WASHINGTON D.C. WHEN YOU'RE
THERE TO CERTIFY THE ELECTORS,
ASK THEM TO MARCH ON THE
CAPITOL.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT ELSE HE COULD
DO IN THE REMAINING TWO WEEKS.
TODAY NANCY PELOSI HAD TO REACH
OUT TO THE HEAD OF THE JOINT
CHIEFS AND WORRY ABOUT ACCESS TO
THE NUCLEAR CODES.
IT'S THE WALL STREET JOURNAL,
ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS,
IT'S REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS
CALLING FOR THIS BECAUSE WE HAVE
REAL CONCERN FOR OUR COUNTRY.
>> SOME REPUBLICANS SAY SUCH
MOVES JUST ENHANCE DIVISIONS AT
A TIME WHEN PRESIDENT-ELECT
BIDEN IS CALLING FOR UNITY.
>> YOU CAN'T HAVE UNITY IF
YOU'VE GOT SOMEONE WHO COULD DO
A DANGEROUS ACTION.
THE LAST TIME THAT THERE WAS A
STORMING OF THE U.S. CAPITOL WAS
IN THE WAR OF 1812 BY THE
BRITISH.
SO SINCE THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
DONALD TRUMP DID THAT HASN'T
HAPPENED IN SEVERAL HUNDRED
YEARS AFTER FOLLOWING A PANDEMIC
THAT WE HAVEN'T HAD A 100 YEARS,
WE'RE STARTING TO NOTICE A
PATTERN HERE.
THIS PRESIDENT HAS ACTED IN
UNPRECEDENTED WAYS.
DONALD TRUMP DOESN'T CARE ABOUT
THE COUNTRY.
HE CARES ABOUT DONALD TRUMP AND
HIS FAMILY AND HIS FAMILY'S
BUSINESS.
AND I THINK PEOPLE REALLY WOKE
UP THIS WEEK TO THAT.
BUT ALL THE MORE WE'VE GOT TO
PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY AND THE
INTEGRITY OF THE COUNTRY.
AND YOU DO THAT BY EITHER, ONE,
HAVING THE CABINET INVOKE THE
25TH AMENDMENT OR, TWO, IF THEY
WON'T, WE HAVE TO DO
IMPEACHMENT.
>> WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO
CAPITOL POLICE LOSING CONTROL
AND ALLOWING THE BUILDING TO BE
PREACHED IN THAT WAY?
>> YEAH.
IT WAS SAD.
THE FEELING I STILL HAVE IS
SADNESS FROM WHAT HAPPENED THE
OTHER DAY.
ONE, I THINK THERE WAS SOME ILL
PREPAREDNESS.
THEY WEREN'T READY AND THEY
SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER
PREPARED.
WE LOST ONE OF THE OFFICER'S
LIVES DURING THIS.
AND, YOU KNOW, BY THE END OF THE
DAY THEY HAD 1800 PEOPLE TO MAKE
SURE WE COULD GET THE REST OF
THE BUSINESS DONE.
I'M GLAD WE WENT BACK INTO
SESSION AND GOT THE BUSINESS
DONE THAT WE HAD TO.
BUT IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN
THAT FAR.
WE NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAD TO
WORRY ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
DONALD TRUMP INVITED THOSE
PEOPLE TO COME THAT DAY AND HE
WENT TO A RALLY AND HE AND HIS
FAMILY AND LAWYER EGGED THEM ON
FOR THEIR ACTIONS.
SO NO ONE CAN ACT LIKE DONALD
TRUMP IS INNOCENT ON THIS AND
UNFORTUNATELY, AS YOU SAW FROM
THE EDITORIAL, THE MILWAUKEE
JOURNAL SENTINEL AND OTHER
PLACES, THEY'RE NOW REFERRING TO
PEOPLE AS THE SEDITION CAUCUS.
NONE OF THIS IS NORMAL.
I'M JUST HOPING THAT IN A COUPLE
WEEKS WE CAN GET BACK TO A PLACE
WHERE BUSINESS IS DONE THE WAY
IT TRADITIONALLY HAS BEEN DONE
WITH JOE BIDEN IS PRESIDENT.
BUT IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS I'M
STILL VERY CONCERNED FOR WHAT
COULD HAPPEN.
>> I JUST WANTED TO POINT TO
THIS.
HOW DIFFERENT DO YOU THINK THIS
WOULD HAVE BEEN FOR THE PROTEST
PROTESTORS HAD THEY BEEN BLACK
LIVES MATTER DEMONSTRATORS?
>> NO QUESTION.
THERE WERE OVER 200 ARRESTS
DURING THE BRETT BRETT KAVANAUGH
HEARINGS.
THIS WAS A POORLY-EXECUTED
EFFORT.
MY COMMITTEE IS HAVING A
HEARING.
THERE'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE
MORE REVIEWS AND REPORTS DONE.
THE CHIEF OF THE CAPITOL POLICE
IS RESIGNING.
THIS CLEARLY WAS DONE POORLY.
AND TO SAY YOU'RE GOING TO GO
AND ARREST PEOPLE AFTER THE
FACT, ARRESTS THAT DAY WOULD
HAVE HELPED QUITE A BIT.
>> DO YOU HAVE REAL CONCERNS FOR
THE NEXT DAYS IN TERMS OF
NATIONAL SECURITY WITH DONALD
TRUMP STILL THE SITTING
PRESIDENT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
ABSOLUTELY.
DONALD TRUMP IS SO
UNPREDICTABLE.
HE'S SUCH A NARCISSIST.
WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE HE COULD DO?
AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK OUR REAL
WORRIES ARE.
HE'S ALREADY BEEN TALKING ABOUT
BEING TOUGHER ON IRAN.
WE DON'T NEED TO START A LAST
COUPLE WEEKS OF ANYONE'S
PRESIDENCY WHEN YOU'VE GOT
SOMEONE NEW COMING IN.
THAT'S WHY WE'RE SO CONCERNED.
NOT ONLY DOES HE HAVE TO BE
PUNISHED FOR WHAT HE DID, WHAT
WAS AN ASSAULT ON OUR DEMOCRACY
ON WEDNESDAY, BUT WE HAVE TO
MAKE SURE THAT HE DOESN'T DO ANY
MORE DAMAGE TO THIS COUNTRY.
>> MEANWHILE, NEARLY LOST IN ALL
OF THIS, DEMOCRATS JUST WON
CONTROL OF THE SENATE.
WHAT WILL DEMOCRATS DO WITH THIS
LEADERSHIP?
>> SO IT'S A TIGHT MARGIN.
IT'S A 50-50 SENATE.
THE TIE-BREAKING VOTE WILL BE
KAMALA HARRIS.
OUR HOUSE MARGIN IS A SMALL
MARGIN.
SO IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE GOING TO
SEE A LOT OF ACTION HAPPENING ON
THINGS THAT I MIGHT LIKE TO SEE
AS SOMEONE WHO'S MORE OF A
PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT.
BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT HOPEFULLY
WE CAN GET SOME OF THE
APPOINTMENTS THROUGH THAT WE
NEED TO, WE CAN GET SOME BASIC
BILLS THAT NEED TO FIX SOME OF
THE DAMAGE THAT WAS DONE BY THE
TRUMP PRESIDENCY THROUGH
CONGRESS.
BUT IT'S NOT EXACTLY A HUGE
MARGIN IN EITHER HOUSE.
>> ALL RIGHT.
U.S. REPRESENTATIVE MARK POCAN,
THANKS FOR JOINING US.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THANK YOU.
>> WE MOVE TO THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE AISLE NOW.
REPUBLICAN U.S. GLENN GROTHMAN
DID NOT VOTE TO REJECT THE
ELECTORS.
HE JOINS US FROM FOND DU LAC.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> GLAD TO BE BACK IN WISCONSIN.
>> I IMAGINE.
SO AS TO THE DEADLY VIOLENCE AT
THE U.S. CAPITOL IN A STATEMENT
YOU CONDEMNED THE RIOTERS AND
PUT BLAME ON RUDY GIULIANI AND
DONALD TRUMP JR. FOR ENCOURAGING
THE BEHAVIOR.
WHAT ABOUT THE PRESIDENT
HIMSELF?
WHAT BLAME DO YOU GIVE HIM?
>> WELL, I HAVEN'T HEARD HIS
STATEMENTS, YOU KNOW.
FIRST OF ALL, WHEN THE KIND OF
INSURRECTION, WHATEVER WE CALL
IT, TOOK PLACE, I WAS IN MY
OFFICE.
SO I FOLLOWED THINGS ON TV
RATHER THAN LIVE.
AND ON TV THEY KEPT REPEATING
RUDY GIULIANI AND DONALD TRUMP
JR.'S STATEMENTS.
SO THAT'S WHY THEY WERE INCLUDED
IN MY PRESS RELEASE.
>> WHAT ABOUT THE RALLY BEFORE
THAT?
WHAT ABOUT THE RALLY THAT THE
PRESIDENT FRONTED BEFORE THEY
MARCHED DOWN PENNSYLVANIA
AVENUE?
>> RIGHT.
I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE SAID.
I WILL SAY THIS.
I THINK THERE WERE IRRESPONSIBLE
PEOPLE WHO DESCRIBED THIS DAY AS
BEING MORE THAN IT WOULD BE.
NORMALLY THIS IS A VERY
PERFUNCTORY VOTE.
IT'S SOMETHING YOU BARELY
REMEMBERED WHEN IT WAS DONE WHEN
DONALD TRUMP WAS SWORN IN.
AND I THINK LED BY SOME I'LL
CALL THEM IRRESPONSIBLE
CONGRESSMEN, THE POWER WAS
ALLOWED TO BELIEVE THAT THIS WAS
GOING TO BE A MUCH MORE
SIGNIFICANT VOTE THAN IT WAS.
AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAD TENS OF
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THERE, MANY
OF THEM VERY WONDERFUL PEOPLE
FROM WISCONSIN.
>> MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE
WONDERFUL PEOPLE IS WHAT YOU'RE
SAYING NOW?
>> WELL, THERE WERE TENS OF
THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WEST OF THE
CAPITOL THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE ON
TV.
AND A LOT OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE
VERY NICE PEOPLE.
THEY WERE TYPICAL PEOPLE THAT
YOU'D SEE AT ANY RALLY AND I
DON'T THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
AWARE THAT THEY WERE AROUND HERE
AS WELL.
>> I WANT TO ASK YOUR REACTION
TO EFFORTS TO REMOVE THE
PRESIDENT BEFORE HIS TERM ENDS
IN 12 DAYS.
>> I THINK IT'S A SILLY MEDIA
CIRCUS.
HE'S GOING TO END IN 12 DAYS.
WHY YOU WOULD TRY TO RUSH
SOMETHING THROUGH AND HAVE MIKE
PENCE BE PRESIDENT FOR ONE OR
TWO DAYS SEEMS SILLY.
>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE
PRESIDENT AFTER THIS RIOT AT THE
CAPITOL REPRESENTS A NATIONAL
SECURITY RISK IN HIS REMAINING
DAYS?
>> NO, I DON'T THINK SO.
HE'S SAID HE'S GOING TO GO ALONG
WITH THE TRANSITION.
I EXPECT THE NEXT 12 DAYS TO BE
AS BORING AS THE LAST 12 DAYS OF
BARACK OBAMA'S PRESIDENCY.
>> YOU SAY NOW THAT THE U.S.
CONSTITUTION IS VERY CLEAR THAT
STATES DETERMINE THEIR OWN
ELECTORS, CALLING VOTES TO
REJECT RESULTS IN CONGRESS THIS
WEEK, YOU SAID BOTH ABSURD AND
DANGEROUS.
BUT YOU ALSO SAY THAT YOU ALMOST
DID THAT YOURSELF.
WHAT STOPPED YOU IN THE 11TH
HOUR?
WAS IT A POLITICAL CALCULATION?
>> NO.
POLITICALLY IT WOULD HAVE BEEN
EASIER TO VOTE THE OTHER WAY.
LIKE I SAID, IT WAS A VERY CLOSE
DECISION, AND I THINK THE PEOPLE
WHO MADE THE POINT, THE
IMPORTANCE OF THE ELECTORAL
COLLEGE, THE BAD PRECEDENCE
YOU'RE SETTING FOR THE FUTURE IS
THE REASON WHY I DECIDED TO
UPHOLD THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
THE OTHER REASON WOULD BE THERE
ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO FELT
THIS ELECTION WAS -- THERE WAS
CHEATING GOING ON AND I THINK
THEY NEED A VOICE AS WELL AND I
SYMPATHIZE WITH THE CONGRESSMEN
WHO VOTED THE OTHER WAY.
>> YOU DESCRIBE IT AS A VERY
CLOSE CALL FOR YOURSELF AND YET
ON THE OTHER HAND YOU TALK ABOUT
THIS BEING DANGEROUS AND ABSURD.
BUT I JUST WANT TO MOVE ON.
YOU THINK THAT WE DO NEED TO
INVESTIGATE ELECTION FRAUD,
BECAUSE, YOU SAY, TRUMP
SUPPORTERS BELIEVE THE ELECTION
WAS STOLEN.
BUT HASN'T THIS BEEN KIND OF
ASKED AND ANSWERED IN THE
COURTS?
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR
ELECTION-TIPPING FRAUD.
CAN'T YOU JUST TELL YOUR TRUMP
SUPPORTERS THAT?
>> WELL, LET'S GO THROUGH THINGS
THAT ARE INCONTROVERTIBLE.
HERE IN WISCONSIN WE HAD OVER
200,000, I BELIEVE, VOTERS WHO
CLAIMED TO BE INDEFINITELY
CONFINED WHO PROBABLY WEREN'T.
WE PUT UP WITH THAT ALL THE
TIME, BUT I THINK THAT'S --
PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR A LITTLE BIT
MORE ABOUT THAT.
IN OTHER STATES, WE HAD A JUDGE
IN ARIZONA, WHERE THEY DON'T
HAVE SAME-DAY REGISTRATION,
EXTEND THE TIME TO VOTE, WHICH
EVENTUALLY WAS UNDONE BY THE 9TH
CIRCUIT.
NOW, I HAVE A FEELING THAT
PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SUPPORTERS
WILL COME OUT OF THERE BECAUSE
PEOPLE WILL REALIZE THAT NOT
THAT MANY NEW PEOPLE VOTED.
BUT IT'S THE TYPE OF THING THAT
CONCERNS PEOPLE.
>> WELL, IT MAY CONCERN PEOPLE
BUT YOU KNOW AS WELL AS OTHERS
THAT THE JUDGES IN THESE CASES
ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HERE IN
WISCONSIN, MANY OF THEM TRUMP
JUDGES, SO-CALLED, RULED THERE
WAS NO EVIDENCE TO MOVE THESE
CASES FORWARD.
>> WELL, LET'S TAKE THE EXAMPLE
IN ARIZONA.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT, SIR?
ACTUALLY, ACTUALLY, I'M OUT OF
TOWN AND I'M SORRY.
I'M SORRY TO CUT YOU OFF.
>> I'M SORRY.
>> WITH THE ARIZONA EXAMPLE.
BUT WE LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING
WITH YOU AGAIN.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
OKAY.
VERY GOOD.
>> FROM WASHINGTON TO KENOSHA,
WHERE THIS WEEK PROSECUTORS
DECIDED NO CHARGES WOULD BE
FILED AGAINST THE OFFICERS
INVOLVED IN THE AUGUST SHOOTING
THAT LEFT JACOB BLAKE PARALYZED.
KENOSHA RESIDENTS TOOK TO THE
STREETS IN THE WAKE OF THE
DECISION, BUT REMAINED PEACEFUL
IN CALLING FOR CHANGE.
"HERE AND NOW" REPORTER WILL
KENNEALLY REPORTS FROM KENOSHA.
>> IT IS MY DECISION NOW THAT I
ANNOUNCE TODAY BEFORE YOU THAT
NO KENOSHA LAW ENFORCEMENT
OFFICER IN THIS CASE WILL BE
CHARGED WITH ANY CRIMINAL
OFFENSE.
>> IT WAS THE DECISION THAT
JACOB BLAKE'S FAMILY DIDN'T WANT
TO HEAR.
>> WE'RE UNHAPPY WITH WHAT WAS
SAID TODAY.
WE EXPECTED IT.
IT DID NOT SIDESWIPE US OR JUMP
US FROM THE BACKSIDE.
>> KENOSHA DA MICHAEL GRAVELY
SAID IT WOULD BE TOO HARD TO
PROVE OFFICERS DID NOT SHOOT
BLAKE IN SELF-DEFENSE.
POLICE FIRST RESPONDED TO A 911
CALL OVER A DISPUTE ABOUT A
VEHICLE.
THEY TRIED TO ARREST BLAKE ON A
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE WARRANT.
>> OKAY.
>> I SAID DON'T DO THAT.
>> YOU TOLD THEM NOT TO DO THAT?
>> THEY TOLD ME NOT TO DO THAT.
>> OKAY.
>> SO THEN THEY HIT ME AGAIN.
>> BLAKE MOVED TOWARD THE CAR
CARRYING A KNIFE.
THE DA SAID POLICE STARTED
SHOOTING WHEN BLAKE TURNED
TOWARD THE OFFICERS WITH THE
KNIFE.
>> SHOOT ME LIKE THAT.
>> THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO TREAT YOU
LIKE THAT?
>> I WAS JUST TRYING TO LEAVE.
HE HAD AN OPTION TO SHOOT THE
TIRES, EVEN PUNCH ME.
>> THE OFFICERS INVOLVED IN THIS
USED EVERY ONE OF THE
INTERVENTION OPTIONS TO TRY TO
RESTRAIN BLAKE DURING THIS
SITUATION.
IT WAS EVERYTHING FROM PRESENCE,
DIALOGUE, HAND TECHNIQUES,
DIFFUSING TECHNIQUES, THE
TASERS, TO EVENTUALLY REALLY
UNFORTUNATELY WAS THE USE OF
DEADLY FORCE.
>> THE DECISION DREW PROTESTS
FROM KENOSHA RESIDENTS, WHICH
REMAINED LARGELY PEACEFUL.
MEMBERS OF BLAKE'S FAMILY WANT
TO TURN THAT ENERGY INTO ACTION.
>> THEY'RE STARTING TO PUT OUT
WORKING BOOTS AND GET IN THIS
GAME.
WE BUILT THIS NATION BUT WE
DON'T REAP THE BENEFITS.
IT'S UNCONSCIONABLE IN 2021.
>> REPORTING FROM KENOSHA, I'M
WILL KENNEALLY FOR "HERE AND
NOW."
>> THE MAN APPOINTED BY THE
STATE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO
RECOMMEND WHETHER TO CHARGE THE
POLICE OFFICER WHO SHOT JACOB
BLAKE SAID HE STRUGGLEED WITH
SEEING A BLACK MAN SHOLT SHOT IN THE
BACK.
WE SAW DOWN WITH FORMER MADISON
POLICE CHIEF NOBLE WRAY.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
APPRECIATE IT.
>> ARE YOU AT PEACE WITH THE
RECOMMENDATION YOU GAVE TO THE
KENOSHA DA NOT TO CHARGE THE
OFFICER WHO SHOT JACOB BLAKE?
AND, IF SO, WHY?
>> I WAS AT PEACE WITH COMING TO
THAT CONCLUSION, BUT I WOULD
NEVER BE AT PEACE WHEN A
CITIZEN, AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN
MALE, IS SHOT ON A CITY STREET
IN THE UNITED STATES.
>> BECAUSE A FRIEND OF THE BLAKE
FAMILY AND ORGANIZER IN KENOSHA
LAMENTED YOUR AND THE DA'S
DECISION SAYING THAT WE SHOULD
NOT LIVE IN COMMUNITIES WHERE AS
BLACK PEOPLE, QUOTE, IF YOU STEP
OUTSIDE, YOU'RE FAIR GAME.
SO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT SHE'S
SAYING.
>> I UNDERSTAND IT, AND IN SO
MANY WAYS.
AND THAT IS THE STRUGGLE.
BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND IT FROM A
-- YOU KNOW, A POLICE OFFICER.
POLICE OFFICERS, THERE ARE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN POLICE OFFICERS
FEEL THE SAME WAY.
I UNDERSTAND IT FROM A PERSONAL
STANDPOINT.
I DON'T -- I FEEL THAT WAY.
I HAVE -- LIKE I SAID, I HAVE
SONS.
NOW I HAVE GRANDSONS.
I FEEL THAT WAY.
IT IS LIKE THIS HEAVY WEIGHT
THAT SITS OVER US THAT IS KIND
OF PERVASIVE, THAT -- IT IS A
WEIGHT THAT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM
-- IT JUST SEEMS LIKE IT HANGS
OVER BEING BLACK IN AMERICA.
>> UNDER ONE POLICE REFORM
PROPOSAL IN THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN, THE STANDARD FOR USE
OF FORCE WOULD CHANGE TO USING
DEADLY FORCE ONLY AS A LAST
RESORT.
WOULD THAT HAVE CHANGED YOUR
RECOMMENDATION HAD THAT BEEN IN
PLACE?
>> YOU KNOW, DON'T STOP SHOOTING
UNTIL YOU STOP THE THREAT.
I THINK THAT DOES DESERVE SOME
MORE DIALOGUE AND UNDERSTANDING.
I THINK BY INTRODUCING A LAW
THAT SAYS THE LAST RESORT WOULD
CAUSE US TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT
THAT.
IN MY REPORT, THAT'S THE LAST
THING I ENDED ON MY REPORT.
I SAID THAT WE STILL NEED TO
FOCUS ON THE SANCTITY OF LIFE.
AND WHAT I MEANT BY THAT IS JUST
THAT.
I DON'T THINK WE'RE DOING ENOUGH
IN THIS.
THE PARAMETER THAT'S WE HAVE TO
USE TO JUDGE THIS PUTS US IN A
FRAMEWORK WHERE WE DON'T HAVE
THE FLEXIBILITY OF BEING ABLE TO
THINK OUT OF THE BOX.
NOW, OBVIOUSLY, THOSE THAT ARE
IN THE POLICING PROFESSION RIGHT
NOW WOULD PROBABLY PUSH BACK ON
THAT.
BECAUSE IT IS A TOUGH JOB.
IT IS TOUGH WHEN YOU ARE
EXERCISING AND USING DEADLY
FORCE, TO MAKE THAT IN A SPLIT
SECOND DECISION WITH ALL OF
THESE THINGS GOING ON.
BUT I DO THINK THE OBLIGATION
FOR US TO LOOK AT THIS AS A LAST
RESORT, BUT HAVE A FRAMEWORK, IT
WOULD BE REALLY IMPORTANT.
>> ON ANOTHER MATTER, AND
UNRELATED, WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE
TO THE U.S. CAPITOL POLICE
BASICALLY LOSING CONTROL TO THE
TRUMP MOB, AS IT WERE, COMPARED
TO RESPONSE IN WASHINGTON AND
ELSEWHERE TO BLACK LIVES MATTER
PROTESTORS?
>> CLEARLY THEY WERE NOT
PREPARED.
CLEARLY THERE WAS A DIFFERENTIAL
RESPONSE.
EVERYONE THAT WATCHED THE
PROTESTS THAT TOOK PLACE IN THE
SPRING AND THE SUMMER,
POST-GEORGE FLOYD, SAW THIS.
BUT THE REALITY IS IS THAT THEY
DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH.
AND IT WAS PAINFULLY OBVIOUS
THEY DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH.
>> SO YOU JUST DESCRIBED IT AS
PAINFULLY OBVIOUS.
WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU
SAW THAT AND REALIZED THAT THAT
WAS HAPPENING?
>> MY REACTION WAS FROM AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN IN THIS SOCIETY
IS WHY IS THAT HAPPENING THAT
WAY?
IT ALMOST APPEARED TO ME TO COME
ACROSS AS INTENTIONAL.
IT WAS SO OBVIOUS THAT THERE
WERE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE.
YOU HAVE A NATIONAL EVENT TAKING
PLACE.
BUT FROM A POLICING STANDPOINT,
I HAD MIXED FEELINGS, OBVIOUSLY.
I KNEW THAT THE OFFICERS THAT
WERE OUT THERE WERE TRYING THEIR
BEST.
THEY WERE TRYING THEIR BEST TO
DO IT.
SO I'VE BEEN IN THOSE
SITUATIONS, YOU KNOW, BEING
GIVEN MIFFLIN STREET ON
HALLOWEEN HERE IN MADISON, WHERE
YOU WANT TO PUT PEOPLE IN THEIR
BEST POSITION TO SUCCEED.
I DON'T THINK THE LEADERSHIP,
CAPITOL POLICE, PUT THOSE FOLKS
IN THE BEST POSITION TO SUCCEED.
AND WE'RE VERY LUCKY THAT MORE
DID NOT HAPPEN IN THIS WHOLE
THING OR PEOPLE WERE NOT HURT OR
POTENTIAL LOSS OF LIFE.
>> AS TO THE JACOB BLAKE
SHOOTING, NOBLE WRAY SAYS IN HIS
VIEW ALL OFFICERS IN WISCONSIN
SHOULD BE EQUIPPED WITH BODY
CAMERAS.
KENOSHA OFFICERS ARE NOT.
THE FULL-LENGTH INTERVIEW WITH
WRAY CAN BE SEEN AT PBS WIS.ORG.
EARLIER IN THE WEEK, "HERE AND
NOW" REPORTER MARISA WOJCIK MAT
SOWN WITH TANYA MCLEAN EXECUTIVE
LEADER OF KENOSHA AND FRIEND OF
THE BLAKE FAMILY FOR REACTION
AND NEXT STEPS.
>> JACOB IS DISAPPOINTED.
HE'S LAYING PARALYZED RIGHT NOW
IN A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF PAIN
CONSTANTLY.
SO HE'S DISAPPOINTED AND
SADDENED BY GRAVELY'S DECISION.
HIS FATHER IS SADDENED.
THE ENTIRE FAMILY IS.
JUSTIN IS EXTREMELY EMOTIONAL.
HE'S JUST CONCERNED FOR, YOU
KNOW, AFRICAN DESCENDENTS
THROUGHOUT THIS COUNTRY THAT
BASICALLY IF YOU STEP OUTSIDE
YOU'RE FAIR GAME.
IF SOMEONE SAYS, WELL, I FELT
THREATENED.
AND THAT'S NO WAY ANY OF US
SHOULD HAVE TO LIVE.
WE'RE DEMANDING THINGS NOW ON.
THIS WHOLE NARRATIVE OF ASKING
AND ALL OF THAT, WE'RE DONE WITH
THAT, BECAUSE, I MEAN, WE'VE
DONE ALL WE CAN DO.
I MEAN, WE'RE MARCHING, WE'RE
PROTESTING, WE'RE GETTING TO THE
POLLS.
WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING THE
CORRECT WAY.
WE'RE FOLLOWING PROTOCOL, RIGHT,
AS TO HOW WE WANT THINGS TO
CHANGE.
WE HAVE LAWMAKERS AND OFFICIALS
SAY, WELL, JUST DO THIS.
WELL, WE'VE DONE EVERYTHING.
AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DOING THIS
FOR MANY, MANY YEARS BEFORE US.
AND WE'RE STILL FIGHTING THE
EXACT SAME FIGHT.
I WAS ON A CALL LAST NIGHT AND
THE QUESTION WAS ASKED WHAT DO
WE NEED TO DO.
BUT WE'RE COMMITTED TO
CONTINUING TO FIGHT.
SO THERE'S A LARGE GROUP OF US.
WE'RE GOING TO BE MEETING TO
TALK ABOUT DIFFERENT STRATEGIES
BECAUSE WE KNOW WE HAVE TO BE
STRATEGIC ABOUT HOW WE MOVE
FORWARD.
YOU KNOW, ALL OF US BASICALLY
HAVE HAD THE WIND KNOCKED OUT OF
US.
SO WE'RE JUST TRYING TO REGROUP
AND FIGURE OUT THE BEST WAY TO
MAKE THE THINGS HAPPEN THAT WE
NEED TO SEE HAPPEN IN OUR
COMMUNITIES AND TO STOP ALL THIS
-- THE POLICE TERROR.
BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
IT'S POLICE TERROR.
>> YOU CAN WATCH THE EXTENDED
INTERVIEW WITH TANYA MCLEAN ON
OUR WEBSITE.
NOW TO THE WISCONSIN CAPITOL,
WHERE ASSEMBLY REPUBLICANS ARE
ALREADY SETTING UP THEIR FIRST
SHOWDOWN OF THE NEW LEGISLATIVE
SESSION WITH GOVERNOR TONY
EVERS, THIS TIME OVER THE
STATE'S COVID-19 RESPONSE.
"HERE AND NOW" SENIOR POLITICAL
REPORTER ZAC SCHULTZ HAS THE
STORY.
>> THAT I WILL SUPPORT THE
CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED
STATES.
>> THE BIENNIAL INAUGURATION IS
SUPPOSED TO BE A BIPARTISAN
CELEBRATION OF THE NEW
LEGISLATIVE SESSION.
FOR ONE DAY AT LEAST, DEMOCRATS
AND REPUBLICANS WELCOME NEW
MEMBERS AND PLAY NICE.
>> TODAY WE CELEBRATE OUR
WISCONSIN BONDS, NOT AS
REPUBLICANS OR DEMOCRATS, EVEN
THOUGH DEMOCRATS AREN'T HERE,
BUT AS WISCONSINITES.
>> BUT THE POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE
OF THE DAY COULD NOT MASK OUR
STATE'S FRACTURED AND PARTISAN
RESPONSE TO THE COVID-19
PANDEMIC.
DEMOCRATS IN THE ASSEMBLY DID
NOT EVEN TAKE THE FLOOR BECAUSE
REPUBLICANS WOULD NOT MANDATE
MASKS AT THIS INDOOR EVENT.
>> I'M ABSOLUTELY JAZZED TO BE
HERE TODAY AND I WANT TO OFFER
MY SINCERE CONGRATULATIONS TO
EVERYONE GETTING SWORN IN.
>> SOME TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE
BEFORE THE NEW YEAR,
ADMINISTERED OVER ZOOM BY
GOVERNOR TONY
GOVERNOR TONY EVERS.
OTHERS OUTSIDE BEFORE A JUDGE.
>> MY DUTY AS STATE
REPRESENTATIVE.
>> WISCONSIN'S COVID-19 RESPONSE
IS ALSO THE FIRST ISSUE TO REACH
THE FLOOR.
GOVERNOR EVERS REEF ISSUED HIS
BILL FROM LAST DECEMBER.
DEMOCRATS INTRODUCED THEIR OWN
BILL.
BUT REPUBLICANS CONTROL THE
LEGISLATURE, SO ASSEMBLY BILL 1
COMES FROM THEM.
>> THE PROPOSAL WE ARE
INTRODUCING TODAY HAS OVER 44
PROVISIONS TO HELP FIGHT THE
VIRUS AND REOPEN OUR ECONOMY AND
OUR SCHOOLS.
>> THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL
PROVISIONS INCLUDE A CIVIL
LIABILITY SHIELD FOR BUSINESSES,
MEANING THEY COULDN'T BE SUED BY
EMPLOYEES WHO GET COVID ON THE
JOB.
BANNING A LOCAL HEALTH AUTHORITY
FROM SHUTTING DOWN RELIGIOUS
SERVICES.
LOCAL SCHOOL CLOSURES LIMITED TO
TWO WEEKS, WHILE SHUTDOWN ORDERS
ARE LIMITED TO TWO DAYS.
AFTER THAT THE SCHOOL BOARD OR
LOCAL GOVERNMENT WOULD NEED TO
VOTE BY A TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY
FOR ANOTHER TWO-WEEK ORDER.
THE BILL PASSED THURSDAY ON A
PARTY LINE VOTE, WITH DEMOCRATS
DEBATING THE MEASURE WEARING
PLASTIC FACE SHIELDS WHILE SOME
REPUBLICANS DID NOT WEAR A MASK
AT ALL.
IT MOVES ON TO THE SENATE WHERE
SOME REPUBLICANS SAY IT DOESN'T
GO FAR ENOUGH.
EVEN IF IT PASSES THERE,
DEMOCRATS SAY IT FACES A CERTAIN
VETO FROM GOVERNOR EVERS.
REPORTING FROM MADISON, I'M ZAC
SCHULTZ FOR "HERE AND NOW."
>> AS TO HOW THE COVID RELIEF
PACKAGE FARES IN HIS CHAMBER,
DEVIN LEMAHIEU JOINS US NEXT
FRIDAY, WHEN HE'LL ALSO RESPOND
TO THE GOVERNOR'S STATE OF THE
STATE ADDRESS, BEING DELIVERED
REMOTELY THIS COMING TUESDAY AT
7:00 P.M.
WE WILL AIR THAT ADDRESS ON THE
WISCONSIN CHANNEL AND LIVESTREAM
IT ON pbswisconsin.org.
MEANWHILE, THURSDAY THE STATE
ANNOUNCEED THAT OVER 1 # -- 110,000
VACCINE DOSES HAVE BEEN
ADMINISTERED.
THERE'S A NEW DATA VISUALIZATION
OF THE DISTRIBUTION.
IT'S PART OF AN ONGOING SERIES
OF CHARTS AND MAPS TRACKING THE
COVID-19 PANDEMIC IN WISCONSIN.
AGAIN, THAT'S AT WISCONTEXT
DORK.
AND THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR
TONIGHT.
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.