- Our next guest is nationally
recognized in the field of
police reform.
Noble Wray is the former chief
of Madison Police and longtime
officer.
He is now a consultant for
community and trust based
policing methods across
the country.
And thank you so much for
joining us.
- Thank you.
- So as an expert in police
practices and reform,
when you saw the images of what
happened to George Floyd,
what went through your head?
- First of all, just like many
Americans, it was just
horrific to see
that, that, just
so emotional.
It's just a lot of emotions
going through my head.
You know, I feel it from a
community member and
an African-American male
or someone that's been in
policing for now over
30 years, really.
And, you know, I felt
for the family.
It was just a, just a terrible,
just a terrible
set of circumstances.
- So putting even
a finer point on that,
how well do you understand the
anger of protesters
marching in solidarity
over racism and
white supremacy as they
mourn the death of another
black man?
- I understand it from
different angles.
I came up in Milwaukee.
My parents and my family was
very much involved with Father
Groppi an d the civil rights
movement.
And so that that rings
very, very strong for me.
As a police officer,
as one that has
advocated for police, but also
police reform,
it hit me hard because
all of those gains that we
fought that we were making over
the years, you know, I'm
recognizing that trust can be
lost in just one instant.
Just one instant.
So so that was very difficult.
But understanding that
talking to community members
both here in Madison and across
the nation, this is a
real issue.
It's been a real issue.
And one of the things that I
think we
mistake we we do
by mistake in our profession
is that if there is an absence
of tension or if people are
not complaining
to law enforcement, it sends
a signal that things are OK.
But in reality, this is a
perfect example that things are
not.
The tension was out there.
The frustration, the decades
of frustration was out there.
And then this was,
this was the match that
that that really hit
at the core of so
many people.
One of the other things that
I'd like to say, Fredrica, this
is different.
I've been in a lot of protests.
I mean, Madison is a state
capital.
This is not a protest.
This is a movement.
And a movement happens when
the people that are directly
impacted by a particular issue,
they're not the only ones
impacted.
This has gone beyond
African-Americans.
This has gone to-- this
is worldwide.
The other thing in a movement
is when you see
a shift in status quo
thinking. What I'm
hearing out there is people
are asking for something
different. They're saying we
want
a response to police misconduct
to happen in a more rapid
fashion.
We want police officers
that are engaged in similar
conduct to be treated
just like an average citizen
would be treated.
And it should be if we're
the guardians of democracy, we
should be held to a higher
standard.
- Do you think that those calls
will be different this time?
Will this be
the situation that causes
change?
I hope so.
I hope that the
change that takes place, the
reform that takes place
goes beyond the moment.
And as I alluded to earlier,
we get lulled into thinking
just because people are not out
there protesting, that there's
not an issue, because there are
clear issues of reform
that need to take place in this
production.
- Like?
- Like, I think,
you know, areas for--
I'll give you an example.
I think law enforcement
needs to provide
disciplinary, automated
disciplinary records to the
public. It needs to be
transparent.
Needs to be done in a way
where, you know, human
resource issues are protected
within a department.
But I think, you know, over
time, people need to know
what is, what's happening on
a disciplinary standpoint.
I think Graham
v.Conner, the Supreme Court,
the landmark Supreme Court
decision that took place in the
80s regarding use of
force.
I think, I think those things
need to be looked at.
I give you-- just drilling down
into that a bit more.
There's a proposal at the
state, at the state level,
and that proposal is to
look at how
do we focus in
on the minimal amount of force
necessary in
a use of force situation.
California has passed
legislation kinda similar
to that. What
Graham v.Connor did, which
there are aspects of it that I
really liked, but it
moved us away from focusing
in on the minimum amount of
force, which I think has a more
of a moral objective
in the operations of police
when you're dealing with force,
when you're dealing with the
use of force. That is always--
when I came on, that was always
in the back of my mind.
Use the minimum amount of force
necessary when you're engaged
in that situation.
I think we lost that under
the objectively reasonable
standard that came out
of the Graham v.
Connor decision.
- And so do you support
the proposal that exists
at the state, a
bill by Democrats that
that deals with
use of force?
You support that provision?
- I have not seen the bill, so
I'm always
reluctant to say that I support
it in its entirety until I see
it.
I have just heard about it.
And from what I've heard, I
think it's going in the right
direction. I'd like to see the
legislation.
But I know that-- I
was tracking California's
legislation on it.
And I think they're going in
the right direction with it.
- The legislation seems
fairly brief.
It basically says that the
primary duty of officers
is to preserve
the life of all people
and use
deadly force as a last
resort. There are some other
provisions, but those are the
two main prongs.
- I think that's going in the
right direction.
Again, I follow the California
legislation and they had to
work that that through the
language so that
it met the needs, but what
it comes down to one of the
things that we have lost
as it relates to
use of force in policing
is
language, statutory language,
Supreme Court language
that reinforces the morality,
the ethics, the humanity
of policing.
And I think that legislation
that's being proposed is trying
to get at that.
- Very briefly, what
learned wisdom would you
impart on current
police officers?
- Learned wisdom is this.
I think policing
has really evolved.
I think we've made great
strides
but the learned wisdom is,
is that it's constant.
We lose sometimes because
we get caught up in the day to
day
push of things. I mean, we're
out there fighting fires and it
is a difficult job.
But the things that are
important about our profession:
building trust, connecting with
people, procedural
justice,
you know, the competency
in the character that it takes
to do this job of guardianship,
which we're entrusted with.
That takes
work. And it's every day.
And it's hard to do.
And so that is something that
we still have to emphasize.
- We leave it there.
Noble Wray, thank you very
much.
- Thank you.