DIZZYING DISPLAY OF PARTISAN
DIVIDE IN OUR COUNTRY AND OUR
STATE.
IN TONIGHT'S CLOSER LOOK, AN
EXPERT ON ELECTIONS, MEDIA,
AMERICAN POLITICS, THE
PRESIDENCY, POLITICAL
COMMUNICATION, POLITICAL
BEHAVIOR AND PUBLIC OPINION.
HE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SORT THIS
OUT.
UW-MADISON PROFESSOR OF
JOURNALISM MIKE WAGNER JOINS US.
SORRY TO GO ON LIKE THAT, BULL
YOU ARE THE EXPERT.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE
AVERAGE WISCONSIN VOTER IS
TUNING INTO THIS IMPEACHMENT
SHOWDOWN?
>> I THINK A LITTLE BIT MORE
THAN BEFORE BECAUSE CHANGE IS
STARTING TO HAPPEN.
MORE WISCONSINITES ARE BECOMING
FAVORABLE TOWARD IMPEACHMENT.
I WOULD SAY THE AVERAGE PERSON
IS STILL PROBABLY SEEING THIS
THROUGH THE LENS OF THEIR
PARTISANSHIP AND FOLLOWING WHAT
ELITES ON THEIR SIDE ARE SAYING
ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP AND WHAT
SHOULD HAPPEN TO HIM NEXT.
>> IN FACT, MY NEXT QUESTION WAS
DO YOU THINK THAT AS THIS
PROGRESSES, POTENTIALLY, THAT
THIS WILL CHANGE THE MIND OF
SOME TRUMP VOTERS IN TERMS OF
VOTING FOR HIM?
>> I THINK IT DEPENDS UPON WHAT
WE LEARN ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP
THROUGHOUT THIS PROCESS.
I THINK IF WE LEARN MUCH OF
WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN REPORTED, I
THINK PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY THEN
MADE UP THEIR MINDS ABOUT
PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THOSE WHO
LIKE HIM WILL CONTINUE TO LIKE
HIM AND THOSE WHO HAVE OPPOSED
HIM WILL SEE THIS AS EVIDENCE
THAT THEY WERE RIGHT TO OPPOSE
HIM.
IF WE LEARN MORE OR IF THERE'S
MORE OPPORTUNITIES FOR MORE
PEOPLE TO EXPLAIN WHY THE
CHARGES AGAINST HIM ARE
PROBLEMATIC FOR SOMEONE IN THE
POSITION OF THE PRESIDENCY, THAT
MIGHT CHANGE SOME POSITIONS
AMONG REPUBLICANS OR
INDEPENDENTS WHO ARE AMBIVALENT
OR JUST TORN.
>> HOW RESONANT DO YOU THINK THE
ARGUMENT ON THE PART OF THE GOP
IS THAT THIS IS JUST AN ATTEMPT
BY DEMOCRATS TO UNDO THE RESULTS
OF THE 2016 ELECTION?
>> THE CONSTITUTION OUTLINES A
PROCESS FOR IMPEACHMENT.
THE FOUNDERS ALWAYS THOUGHT THIS
SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD
HAPPEN.
IT IS NOT UNDOING AN ELECTION.
IT IS IN FACT DOING THE
CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY OF THE HOUSE
OF REPRESENTATIVES.
THEY MAY ULTIMATELY DECIDE THEY
SHOULD NOT IMPEACH THE
PRESIDENT, BUT IT'S NOT TRYING
TO UNDO THE RESULTS OF THE
ELECTION.
IT'S NOT LIKE HILLARY CLINTON
BECOMES PRESIDENT IF PRESIDENT
TRUMP WERE REMOVED.
MIKE PENCE WOULD BECOME
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT VOTERS
THINK RUDY GIULIANI'S SO-CALLED
SHADOW DIPLOMACY IS NO BIG DEAL?
OR, AGAIN, IS THIS JUST THE WAY
THE PARTISAN MINDSET WORKS?
>> I DON'T THINK THAT THE
AVERAGE VOTER HAS BEEN ABLE TO
LEARN ENOUGH ABOUT THAT BEHAVIOR
TO KNOW MUCH MORE THAN WAS IT ON
MY SIDE OR NOT.
THE MORE WE LEARN ABOUT THAT,
WHICH I PRESUME WE MIGHT IN THE
IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY, THE MORE
SOME VOTERS MAY DECIDE THAT
THAT'S REALLY PARTICULARLY
TROUBLING BECAUSE IT'S FOREIGN
POLICY BEING NEGOTIATED OUTSIDE
OF THE APPARATUS OF THE
EXECUTIVE BRANCH.
REALLY IT'S OUTSIDE OF WHAT THE
DEPARTMENT OF STATE MIGHT DO OR
THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE OR THE
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
OR OTHER RELEVANT DEPARTMENTS
THAT ENGAGE IN FOREIGN POLICY
MAKING.
SO IT COULD BE THAT THE MORE WE
LEARN, THE MORE TROUBLING
PEOPLE'S ATTITUDES BECOME TOWARD
IT.
OR IT COULD BE THAT IT WAS MUCH
ADO ABOUT LESS THAN WE CURRENTLY
THINK.
>> IS PRESIDENT TRUMP'S KIND OF
FIGHTING STYLE ATTRACTIVE TO
VOTERS POTENTIALLY, DESPITE THE
FACTS?
>> AGAIN, I WOULD SAY IT'S
ATTRACTIVE TO HIS VOTERS.
I DON'T THINK IT'S ATTRACTIVE TO
EVERYONE.
I THINK THAT HIS STRATEGY TO
CREATE A CAW BLURRY OF ACCUSATIONS
AND WILD TWEETS AND STATEMENTS
THAT ARE NOT TRUE ARE DESIGNED
TO WIN THE SHORT-TERM NEWS
CYCLE.
IMPEACHMENT IS A LONG PROCESS.
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS NOT REALLY
HAD TO GO THROUGH A LONG PROCESS
OF A METICULOUS CASE BEING BUILT
AGAINST HIM.
THE MUELLER REPORT WASN'T A SET
OF HEARINGS THAT LASTED FOR
MONTHS ON END.
IT WAS DRIP, DRIP, DRIP WITH
SOME LEAKS HERE AND THERE, THEN
THE RELEASE OF THE REPORT BUT
THEN IT STOPPED.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COULD GO
ON FOR A VERY LONG TIME IN A
SUSTAINED WAY THAT WOULDN'T STOP
AND HIS STRATEGY MAY BE LESS
EFFECTIVE OR ON IT MAY BE
EFFECTIVE IN TURNING PEOPLE'S
ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE
OBJECTIONABLE ISSUE.
>> DO YOU FEEL AS THOUGH THIS IS
ALMOST ENTIRELY HIS STRATEGY AND
THAT THERE ISN'T A CONCERTED
EFFORT?
>> I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE'S A
SET OF MEETINGS WHERE THEY AGREE
ON EXACTLY WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS
GOING TO BE TWEETING OR SAYING
AT A NEWS CONFERENCE OR SAYING
AS HE STANDS OUT BY THE
HELICOPTER BEFORE IT TAKES OFF.
I THINK THOSE OFTEN COME AS
SHOCKS TO HIS STAFF, IT'S BEEN
REPORTED, SHOCKS TO REPUBLICAN
LEADERSHIP AND OTHERS.
AND SO IT SEEMS THAT SO FAR THE
STRATEGY FOR MOST REPUBLICAN
LEADERS HAS BEEN TO FIRST SAY I
DIDN'T HEAR WHAT HE SAID.
THEN AFTER THEY'VE HAD TIME TO
TALK ABOUT IT, END UP SUPPORTING
THE PRESIDENT.
>> WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE KIND OF
FOREVER-GROWING PARTISAN DIVIDE
THAT MAKE PEOPLE COVER THEIR
EARS AND COVER THEIR EYES IN
FAVOR OF THE TALKING POINTS OF
THEIR PARTY?
>> I THINK WE'VE BECOME TOO
QUICK TO DISMISS ANY PROBLEM
WITH WHAT WE MIGHT CALL WHAT
ABOUTISM.
SOMETHING OBJECTIONABLE IS
RAISED ABOUT REPUBLICANS.
PRESIDENT CLINTON DID SOMETHING
SIMILAR.
DEMOCRATS GET ACCUSED OF
SOMETHING AND THEY SAY WHAT
ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP.
RATHER THAN SAYING THIS IS
BEHAVIOR IS NOT OKAY, PEOPLE ARE
TOO QUICK TO PUT ON THEIR HOME
TEAM COLORS AND BEGIN ATTACKING