>> NOW TO THE 2020 RACE FOR
PRESIDENT AND WISCONSIN'S ROLE.
IN TONIGHT'S INSIDE LOOK, WE GOT
A CHANCES TO CATCH UP WITH 538
SENIOR POLITICAL WRITER CLARE
MALONE.
MALONE SERVED AS THE FALL 2019
PUBLIC AFFAIRS JOURNALIST IN
RESIDENCE AT UW-MADISON.
SHE TALKS ABOUT ELECTABILITY AND
IDENTITY POLITICS.
IN OUR DISCUSSION, WE STARTED BY
ASKING ABOUT THOSE TERMS AND HOW
THEY FACTOR IN THE RACE FOR
PRESIDENT HERE IN WISCONSIN.
>> WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT
IDENTITY POLITICS, WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HOW WHITE PEOPLE AND BLACK
PEOPLE AND WOMEN AND MEN SEE THE
SAME ISSUE IN VERY DIFFERENT
WAYS.
AND I THINK IDENTITY POLITICS
CAN SOMETIMES GET THROWN AROUND
AS A BAD TERM.
BUT I DO ACTUALLY -- OR A TERM
THAT'S MEANT TO BE DE DERISIVE.
BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND
BECAUSE WE ARE REACTING TO
ISSUES EMOTIONALLY.
THAT'S THE WAY HUMAN BEINGS
INTERACT WITH THE WORLD.
>> HOW DOES IDENTITY POLITICS
FACTOR INTO WISCONSIN WITH ITS
OBAMA/TRUMP VOTERS?
>> WISCONSIN IS AN IMPORTANT
STATE.
IT HAS DEMOCRATIC VOTERS WHO
VOTED FOR OBAMA AND SWITCHED
OVER TO TRUMP.
THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT
WISCONSIN IS THAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT THE IDENTITY POLITICS OF
WHITE PEOPLE.
SO THOSE OBAMA/TRUMP VOTERS
TENDED TO BE WHITE PEOPLE
WITHOUT A COLLEGE EDUCATION WHO
HAD VOTED FOR DEMOCRATS FOR A
REALLY LONG TIME AND SOMETHING
KIND OF CHANGED IN THEIR PARTY
AFFILIATION DURING THE OBAMA
YEARS, DURING A TIME WHEN, YES,
WE HAD A BLACK PRESIDENT.
I THINK ISSUES ABOUT RACE WERE
TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE MORE
FRANKLY AND A LITTLE MORE OUT IN
THE OPEN.
AND I DO THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE,
YOU'LL HEAR PEOPLE TALK ABOUT PC
CULTURE, RIGHT?
I THINK SOME SOME WAYS THAT'S A
REFERENCE TO THE MORE OPEN
CONVERSATION PEOPLE WERE HAVING
ABOUT RACE AND SOME OF THOSE
VOTERS SAW THAT AS, YOU KNOW,
YOU COULD SAY -- YOU CAN CALL IT
RACISM OR YOU CAN SAY IT'S A
REACTION TO WHAT THEY SAY IS A
BAD FOCUS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY.
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY SHOULD ONLY
BE FOCUSED ON ECONOMIC ISSUES,
NOT ISSUES OF RACE.
THOSE PEOPLE ENDED UP VOTING FOR
DONALD TRUMP.
YOU NO,THERE'S A LOT OF REASONS PEOPLE
VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP, BUT WE
DO SEE IN THE NUMBERS THAT THERE
WAS A REAL REALLY BIG SHIFT OF WHITE
NONCOLLEGE EDUCATED PEOPLE
SWITCHING OVER TO THE REPUBLICAN
SIDE OF THINGS.
AND YOU CAN'T HELP BUT THINK
THAT THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT
HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT.
>> HOW WILL THOSE VOTES BE WON
OVER IN THIS NEXT ELECTION?
>> WELL, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
ON JOE BIDDEN'S TEAM WOULD TELL
YOU THAT JOE BIDEN IS THE
LEADING CANDIDATE WITH BLACK
VOTERS AND THEY WOULD SAY THAT
JOE BIDEN FOR THOSE OBAMA/TRUMP
VOTERS WHO KEEP ON ASKING OR
SAYING WE WANT THE DEMOCRATIC
PARTY OF OLD, WE WANT TO FOCUS
ON ECONOMIC ISSUES, THEY MIGHT
FIND JOE BIDEN TO BE, A, MORE OF
A MODERATE PERSON, BUT, B, HE
ALSO KIND OF LOOKS HOW WE THINK
PRESIDENTS HAVE TYPICALLY
LOOKED, RIGHT?
HE'S AN OLDER WHITE MAN.
AND I THINK THAT THERE IS
SOMETHING COMFORTING IN BIDEN'S
IDENTITY TO MAYBE THOSE
OBAMA/TRUMP VOTERS, WHITE,
NONCOLLEGE EDUCATED VOTERS IN
WISCONSIN, OHIO, PENNSYLVANIA
AND MICHIGAN.
SO THE OTHER CANDIDATES, I THINK
YOU'LL SEE PEOPLE MAKE ATTACKS
ON WARREN HARRIS OR EVEN
SANDERS FOR BEING TOO LIBERAL,
FOR ONE THING, AND ALSO BEING,
YOU KNOW, IN THE CASE OF THE
WOMEN, REMINDERS OF HILLARY
CLINTON AND THE 2016 CAMPAIGN.
>> SO IS ALL OF THAT AROUND
ELECTABILITY?
>> YES.
I MEAN, I THINK THAT THERE IS --
ELECTABILITY IS SUCH A FREIGHTED
TERM THESE DAYS.
WHAT IT HAS COME TO MEAN IN THIS
CURRENT ELECTION CYCLE IS IT'S
BECOME A SHORTHAND FOR WHO CAN
WIN THOSE OBAMA/TRUMP VOTERS
BACK IN THE ELECTORALLY KEY
STATES OF WISCONSIN, FOR
INSTANCE.
AND I THINK IT IS AN UNDENIABLE
FACT THAT THOSE WISCONSIN SWING
VOTERS OF A CERTAIN PERSUASION
MIGHT BE MORE INCLINED TO LIKE
JOE BIDEN AND HIS IDENTITY AND
HIS MORE MODERATE POLICIES.
BECAUSE ONCE YOU GET INTO THE
ZONE OF TALKING ABOUT SAY BERNIE
SANDERS' AND ELIZABETH WARREN'S
HEALTH CARE PLANS, EVEN A LOT OF
DEMOCRATS DON'T LOVE THE IDEA OF
MEDICARE FOR ALL AND THEY MIGHT
BE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH BIDEN'S
PLAN, WHICH IS MEDICARE FOR SOME
OR A PUBLIC OPTION.
SO I THINK YOU START TO GET INTO
REALLY INTERESTING INTERSECTING
ISSUES OF IDENTITY POLITICS BUT
ALSO JUST THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
IS IN AN IDEOLOGICAL FLUX.
>> IN TERMS OF THE ELECTABILITY
WORD, IS IT KIND OF FAIR OR
RIGHT TO DECIDE WHO TO SUPPORT
BASED ON ELECTABILITY?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT A LOT OF
DEMOCRATIC VOTERS ARE DOING IT.
THIS IS A FIRST -- AND TO A
CERTAIN EXTENT, YES.
IT'S A RATIONAL REACTION TO THE
REALITIES OF THE WORLD, RIGHT?
I THINK DEMOCRATIC VOTERS, THIS
IS THE FIRST TIME IN QUITE SOME
TIME THAT DEMOCRATIC VOTERS HAVE
TOLD POLLSTERS I WOULD VOTE FOR
SOMEONE WHO I THINK HAS THE BEST
CHANCE TO WIN EVEN IF I DON'T
REALLY AGREE WITH HIM THE MOST
OUT OF ANY OF THE CANDIDATES IN
THE FIELD.
AND I THINK THAT THAT'S A
STRATEGIC WAY OF THINKING ABOUT
THE ELECTION, RIGHT?
IT'S A STRATEGIC WAY OF
UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE A
COUNTRY THAT ELECTS ITS
PRESIDENTS NOT BY POPULAR VOTE,
BUT BY ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTE.
AND CERTAIN STATES HAVE MORE
POWER IN THAT PROCESS.
CERTAIN STATES LIKE, AGAIN,
WISCONSIN, OHIO, PENNSYLVANIA,
THAT HAVE SPECIFIC POPULATION,
THE DEMOGRAPHICS IN THEIR
POPULATION, RIGHT?
THEY TEND TO BE WHITER,
PARTICULARLY WISCONSIN, FOR
EXAMPLE.
SO PEOPLE ARE KIND OF BOWING TO
THE REALITIES OF, OKAY, THIS IS
WHO'S DECIDING THE ELECTION.
MAYBE WE SHOULD CHOOSE A
CANDIDATE THAT WILL APPEAL TO
THEM.
THEN I THINK YOU HAVE THE OTHER
SIDE OF THE ELECTABILITY THING,
WHICH IS SHOULD WE BE
PERPETUATING THESE KIND OF I
THINK MOST PEOPLE WOULD AGREE
THAT RACISM AND SEXISM ARE BAD
THINGS IN THE WORLD.
AND SO THE IDEA OF SHOULD WE BE
PERPETUATING THOSE STANDARDS
THAT ONLY CERTAIN CANDIDATES
SHOULD BE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE OUR
CANDIDATE BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE
APPEALING TO RACIST OR SEXIST
PEOPLE.
THAT'S A REALLY HARD
CONVERSATION TO HAVE.
AND I THINK DEMOCRATIC VOTERS DO
KIND OF FIND THEMSELVES IN A
MORAL BIND, WHICH IS ONE OF THE
REASONS WHY I THINK YOU SEE
PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE JOE BIDEN
WHO ARE DEMOCRATIC VOTERS REALLY
DON'T LIKE JOE BIDEN IN PART
BECAUSE WHAT THEY THINK HE
REPRESENTS ABOUT ELECTABILITY,
BECAUSE THEY THINK PERHAPS HE'S
A CONCESSION TO TRUMP VOTERS,
MOB LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC VOTERS,
MIGHT SEE AS HAVING ENABLED A
RACIST OR SEXIST PRESIDENT.
>> WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
CLARE MALONE, THANKS VERY MUCH.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> MALONE HAS A STORY UP ON
538.com TITLED "THE
FRONT-RUNNER