>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," A
FIRST LOOK AT THE BALANCE OF
POLITICAL POWER IN WISCONSIN AND
HOW IT IS NOW IN THE HANDS OF
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT.
AFTER THAT, A CLOSER LOOK AT THE
REACTION FROM CONGRESSIONAL
LEADERS FOLLOWING THE SHOOTING
RAM PAIN IN LAS VEGAS.
THEN IN OUR INSIDE LOOK, SEE HOW
THE STATE'S FARM LABOR LANDSCAPE
IS CHANGING OVER FEARS OF
DEPORTATION FOR IMMIGRANT WORKERS.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR FRIDAY,
OCTOBER 6.

>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED, IN PART,
BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC
TELEVISION.

>> OUR FIRST LOOK THIS WEEK,
ARGUMENTS BEFORE
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT
REGARDING WISCONSIN'S POLITICAL BOUNDARIES.
THIS CASE STARTED IN 2010, WHEN
REPUBLICANS GAINED COMPLETE
CONTROL OF WISCONSIN'S
GOVERNMENT.
IN 2011, REPUBLICANS REDREW
STATE ASSEMBLY DISTRICT MAPS TO
HELP THEM CONVERT NORMALLY CLOSE
ELECTIONS
INTO LEGISLATIVE MAJORITIES.
THE FOLLOWING YEAR REPUBLICANS
WON ONLY 48.6% OF THE STATEWIDE
VOTE, BUT CAPTURED 60 OF 99
SEATS.
IN 2015, THE CASE GILL VERSUS
WHITFORD WAS FILED AS DEMOCRATIC
VOTERS SUED, SAYING VOTING MAPS
WARPED BY POLITICS VIOLATED THE
CONSTITUTION.
THIS PAST JUNE, THE U.S.
SUPREME COURT AGREED TO HEAR
THIS CASE.
THE SUPREME COURT HAS NEVER 2
STRUCK DOWN A REDISTRICTING MAP
BASED ON WHETHER IT WAS DRAWN TO
BENEFIT ONE POLITICAL PARTY.
THE COURT HAS, HOWEVER, LEFT
OPEN THE POSSIBILITY THAT SOME
POLITICAL MANEUVERING MAY BE TOO
EXTREME.
THE WISCONSIN CASE IS EXPECTED
TO HAVE NATIONAL IMPLICATIONS.
WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO'S CAPITAL
BUREAU CHIEF SHAWN JOHNSON JUST
RETURNED FROM THE SUPREME COURT
HEARINGS IN WASHINGTON AND HE
JOINS US FROM THE STATE CAPITOL,
WHERE LAWMAKERS ARE WATCHING
HOW IT COULD IMPACT THEIR ELECTIONS.
SHAWN, THANKS A LOT FOR BEING
HERE.
REFRESH OUR RECOLLECTION ABOUT
THE ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS.
>> YEAH.
I THINK THIS CASE IN A NUTSHELL
KIND OF BOILS DOWN TO WHEN
PARTISAN REDISTRICTING BECOMES
TOO PARTISAN TO THE POINT THAT
IT VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTIONAL
RIGHTS OF THE PARTY THAT WASN'T
IN POWER, THE VOTERS FOR THE
PARTY THAT WASN'T IN POWER WHEN
MAP LINES GET DRAWN.
AND SO THAT IS WHAT FRAMES THIS
CASE,
IS DEMOCRATS HAVE SAID INDEED
WISCONSIN'S MAP WAS TOO
PARTISAN, WE DON'T HAVE A VOICE
IN OUR STATE GOVERNMENT AND SO
THEY NOT ONLY WANT WISCONSIN'S
MAP OVERTURNED.
IT WOULD ALSO SET A NATIONAL
STANDARD SO THAT CASES LIKE
THESE COULD BE BROUGHT ELSEWHERE
IN THE COUNTRY.
>> SO HAVING HEARD THE ORAL
ARGUMENTS,
WHAT CAN YOU ASCERTAIN ABOUT THE
POSITION OF THE JUSTICES?
>> WELL, WE WENT IN KIND OF
KNOWING THAT THERE WAS THIS
CONSERVATIVE BLOCK WHO WE
THOUGHT VIEWED THE CASES ONE
WAY 3 AND THIS LIBERAL BLOCK
THAT VIEWED THEM ANOTHER ONE.
THE JUSTICES RECONFIRMED THOSE
SUSPICIONS.
YOU HAD THREE CONSERVATIVES
EXPRESS QUITE OF BIT OF
SKEPTICISM ABOUT WHETHER THE
COURT
SHOULD STEP INTO CASES LIKE THIS.
I THINK YOU'D HAVE TO SAY THE
MOST OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OR SKEPTIC
AT LEAST OF WHETHER OR NOT THE
SUPREME COURT SHOULD GET
INVOLVED IN PARTISAN
GERRYMANDERING CASES
WAS CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS.
HE SAID THAT IF PARTISAN
GERRYMANDERING CLAIMS LIKE THESE
BECOME SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN
TAKE TO THE COURT,
WE WILL GET EVERY ONE OF THEM
AND THAT EVEN IF WE BASED OUR
DECISIONS ON THE LATEST SOCIAL
SCIENCE, ON MATH,
THAT THE AVERAGE PERSON IN THE
STREET IS GOING TO VIEW THE
COURT AS SIDING WITH DEMOCRATS
OR WITH REPUBLICANS.
HE SAID THAT'S GOING TO DAMAGE
THE REPUTATION OF THE COURT.
HERE'S CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN
ROBERTS.
>> AND THAT'S GOING TO COME OUT
ONE CASE AFTER ANOTHER,
AS THESE CASES ARE BROUGHT IN
EVERY STATE.
AND THAT IS GOING TO CAUSE VERY
SERIOUS HARM TO THE STATUS AND
INTEGRITY OF THE DECISIONS OF
THIS COURT IN THE EYES OF THE
COUNTRY.
>> NOW, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE
COURT,
THE OTHER PERSUASION OF THE
JUSTICES,
THEY SUGGEST THAT THESE
LEGISLATIVE BOUNDARIES
IN WISCONSIN RESULT IN
PREDETERMINED RESULTS.
>> AND YOU HAD KIND OF THE
COUNTERWEIGHT TO JUSTICE
ROBERTS' ARGUMENT DELIVERED
BY JUSTICE GINSBURG,
ONE OF THE FOUR ON THE COURT
WHO WAS APPOINTED
BY DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS.
SHE SAID WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU
HAVE A LEGISLATIVE MAP THAT HAS
KIND OF STACKED THE LINES TO
SUCH A DEGREE THAT WHEN IT COMES
TIME FOR ELECTIONS, VOTERS
ALREADY KNOW THE OUTCOME.
HERE'S JUSTICE GINSBURG.
>> WHAT BECOMES OF THE PRECIOUS
RIGHT TO VOTE?
WILL THEY HAVE THAT RESULT WHEN
THE INDIVIDUAL CITIZEN
SAYS,"I HAVE NO CHOICE.
"I'M IN THIS DISTRICT
AND WE KNOW HOW THIS DISTRICT IS GOING TO COME OUT."
I MEAN, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT THE SOCIETY
SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT.
>> AND YOU ALSO HEARD THREE OF
THE OTHER JUSTICES APPOINTED BY
DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS SAY, LOOK,
THE CASE HERE IS PRETTY CLEAR.
WE KNOW THAT THEY DREW THE MAPS
AS PARTISAN AS THEY COULD.
WE ALSO KNOW THAT WE CAN MEASURE
THESE THINGS NOW,
THAT SOCIAL SCIENCE HAS ADVANCED
TO A DEGREE NOW THAT EVEN JUDGES
CAN FIGURE OUT HOW THESE MAPS
CAN BE EVALUATED.
>> MEANWHILE, JUSTICE KENNEDY IS DESCRIBED
AS THE SWING VOTE ON THIS.
DID YOU GET THAT SENSE FROM HIS
QUESTIONS?
>> YEAH.
WE WENT INTO ARGUMENTS THINKING
THAT HE WAS THE PIVOTAL VOTE AND
EVERYBODY WAS WONDERING WHAT
KIND OF HINTS
HE WAS GOING TO SEND DURING ARGUMENTS.
I THINK EVERYBODY LEFT ARGUMENTS
THINKING THE SAME THING,
THAT WHILE YOU HAD THREE OF THE
FOUR CONSERVATIVES WHO SEEMED TO
TIP THEIR HAND A BIT AS TO WHERE HEY WERE GOING AND A FOURTH,
JUSTICE THOMAS, WHO EVERYONE
ASSUMES IS GOING TO VOTE WITH
THEM, AND YOU HAD THE COURT'S
FOUR LIBERALS TIPPING THEIR HAND
AS WELL, YOU HAD JUSTICE KENNEDY
PLAYING HIS CARDS
PRETTY CLOSE TO HIS VEST.
>> YEAH. NO. GO AHEAD.
I UNDERSTOOD THAT, TOO, THAT HE
ASKED QUESTIONS
MOSTLY PERTAINING TO STANDING.
>> YEAH.
RIGHT OUT OF THE GATE, I MEAN,
WHEN ARGUMENTS STARTED,
HE CUT OFF THE WISCONSIN
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ATTORNEY
RELATIVELY QUICKLY AND WANTED TO
KNOW, YOU KNOW,
WHETHER THIS CASE WOULD BE
VIEWED DIFFERENTLY IF IT WAS A
FIRST AMENDMENT CASE VERSUS A
14TH AMENDMENT CASE.
HE WAS VERY INTERESTED IN
STANDING.
AND SO THAT'S LEFT PEOPLE KIND
OF SCRATCHING THEIR HEADS AS TO
WHAT HE MIGHT BE THINKING AS
HE'S LOOKING AT THAT STANDING.
WHAT HE DID NOT GET INTO IS
WHETHER OR NOT THIS CASE HAS
THAT KIND OF BRIGHT LINE METRIC
TO MEASURE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING.
THAT'S SOMETHING THAT KENNEDY
SAID IN 2004 HE WAS LOOKING FOR.
WE PRESUME HE'S STILL LOOKING
FOR IT IN 2017.
BUT HE GAVE NO HINTS AS TO
WHETHER OR NOT HE THOUGHT THIS
CASE HAD WHAT IT TAKES.
>> BRIEFLY, WITH LESS THAN A
MINUTE LEFT,
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE HIGH COURT
OVERTURNS THESE MAPS AND WHAT
HAPPENS IF THEY DON'T?
>> IF THE HIGH COURT OVERTURNS
THESE MAPS,
WE DON'T EXACTLY KNOW.
THE PRESUMPTION IS YOU'D HAVE A
LEGISLATIVE MAP EVENTUALLY
IN WISCONSIN THAT'S MORE
COMPETITIVE,
THAT LEADS TO MORE DEMOCRATS
BEING ELECTED
AND FEWER REPUBLICANS.
BUT WE DON'T KNOW.
AND WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THAT'S
GOING TO HAPPEN,
WHETHER IT BE BEFORE 2018.
IF THE COURT DECIDES NOT TO
STRIKE DOWN WISCONSIN MAP;
THAT IS, IT UPHOLDS THE MAP,
DOES NOT SET A NEW STANDARD
NATIONWIDE, THIS COULD BE THE
LAST TIME THE COURT
REVISITS THIS ISSUE
FOR YEARS.
COULD BE A LONG TIME.
>> VERY MEANINGFUL STUFF.
SHAWN JOHNSON, THANKS VERY MUCH
FOR YOUR REPORTING.
>> YOU'RE WELCOME.
>> THIS WEEK, OUR PARTNERS AT
WISCONTEXT LANDED IN THE MIDDLE
OF THE GERRYMANDERING LAWSUIT
BECAUSE REPUBLICANS FILED A
AMICUS BRIEF IN THE CASE CITING
ANALYSIS FROM THE UW POPULATION
LAB THAT LOOKED AT THE DENSITY
OF VOTERS BY COUNTY IN
WISCONSIN.
BUT WAS THAT ANALYSIS PUBLISHED
IN A WISCONTEXT REPORT AN
APPLES-TO-APPLES ARGUMENT FOR
JUSTICES TO CONSIDER?
WE ASK ITS AUTHOR, MALIA JONES.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
HOW SURPRISED WERE YOU THAT YOUR
ANALYSIS ENDED UP IN THIS AMICUS
BRIEF ON BEHALF OF THE RNC?
>> WE WERE VERY SURPRISED.
THAT IS CERTAINLY I HAD NOT
EXPECTED TO HAVE AS AN OUTCOME
AND PROBABLY WILL NEVER HAPPEN
TO ME AGAIN.
>> AS WE SUGGESTED, THOUGH, WAS
THIS AN APPLES-TO-APPLES
COMPARISON TO YOUR RESEARCH?
>> IT REALLY WAS NOT BECAUSE THE
AMICUS BRIEF TALKS ABOUT OUR

REPORT, WHICH ANALYZED THE
POPULATION DENSITY AT THE COUNTY
LEVEL OF WISCONSIN, AND 7
PARTISANSHIP AT THE COUNTY
LEVEL, AND THIS CASE IS ABOUT
ASSEMBLY DISTRICTS,
WHICH ARE IN SOME CASES LARGER
THAN COUNTIES,
IN OTHER CASES MUCH SMALLER THAN
COUNTIES.
SO IT IS NOT AN APPLES-TO-APPLES
COMPARISON.

>> SO WHAT DID YOUR RESEARCH
SHOW?
>> SO WHAT WE SHOWED IS THAT
COUNTIES IN WISCONSIN,
LIKE IN MANY OTHER PLACES, HAVE
BECOME MORE CONCENTRATED IN
TERMS OF PARTISANSHIP OVER TIME
AND ESPECIALLY URBAN COUNTIES
HAVE BECOME MORE AND MORE
DEMOCRATIC-LEANING OVER TIME,
WHERE RURAL COUNTIES, MANY OF
THEM REMAIN MIXED,
BUT OVERALL BECOMING LESS
DEMOCRATIC OVER TIME.
>> SO THAT'S WHAT YOU SHOWED.
HOW DID THE RNC USE IT?
>> THE RNC USED THIS ANALYSIS TO
SUPPORT THEIR ARGUMENT THAT ONE
OF THE TWO MAIN PROCESSES THAT'S
USED TO ACHIEVE GERRYMANDERING,
WHICH IS CALLED PACKING,
IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE REPUBLICAN
MAJORITY IN THE STATE
LEGISLATURE DID ON PURPOSE,
BUT WAS JUST SORT OF A NATURAL
DEMOGRAPHIC PROCESS RELATED TO
HOW POPULATIONS HAVE CHANGED
OVER THE COURSE OF THE DECADES.
AND SO THEY USED OUR BRIEF OR
OUR REPORT TO SUPPORT THEIR
ARGUMENT THAT ACTUALLY PACKING
IS HAPPENING,
HAPPENING SORT OF AS A NATURAL
BACKGROUND DEMOGRAPHIC PROCESS.
>> PACKING IS HAPPENING AS KIND
OF A SELF-SELECTION PROCESS?
>> EXACTLY.
SO PEOPLE ARE SELF-SELECTING
INTO URBAN PLACES AND THAT'S WHY
WE SEE "PACKING" IN THESE URBAN
LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS IN PLACES
LIKE MILWAUKEE AND MADISON.
>> BUT SO HOW ARE THESE KIND OF
POLITICAL GEOGRAPHIES NOT
EQUIVALENT, THE COUNTY VERSUS
THE LEGISLATIVE BOUNDARY LINES
AS DRAWN?
>> SO THE MAIN WAY THAT THEY ARE
NOT EQUIVALENT IS THAT
LEGISLATIVE BOUNDARIES ARE
REDRAWN EVERY TEN YEARS,
SPECIFICALLY TO RESPOND TO
POPULATION CHANGE,
AND WE DO THAT IN ORDER TO
MAINTAIN THE EQUAL
REPRESENTATION OR THE ONE PERSON/ ONE VOTE RULE.
SO AS URBAN PLACES GROW AND RURAL PLACES MANY TIMES STAY THE
SAME IN TERMS OF POPULATION OR
EVEN DECREASE IN TERMS OF
POPULATION, THE DISTRICT
BOUNDARIES HAVE TO BE REDRAWN IN
ORDER TO ENSURE THAT EACH PERSON
HAS ABOUT AN EQUAL AMOUNT OF
REPRESENTATION IN STATE
GOVERNMENT.
AND SO THAT -- THOSE ASSEMBLY
DISTRICT BOUNDARIES ARE
PURPOSEFULLY REDRAWN AND THEY'RE
DONE IN THIS STATE BY THE PARTY
WHO IS IN POWER AT THE TIME.
WHEREAS COUNTY BOUNDARIES IN
GENERAL,
THEY REMAIN FIXED EXCEPT FOR
EXCEPTIONAL CASES WHERE
SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT CHANGES
THE COUNTY BOUNDARY.
SO THEY'RE JUST NOT AT RISK FOR
MANIPULATION
FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES.
>> SO DID YOU HAVE ANY
DISCUSSIONS WITH EITHER SIDE OF
THIS CASE ABOUT YOUR ANALYSIS OR
THE USE OF IT?
>> WE DID NOT HAVE DIRECT
DISCUSSIONS WITH EITHER SIDE OF
THE CASE, BUT WHEN WE SAW THAT
THE BRIEF HAD BEEN FILED BY THE
RNC, I REALLY WANTED TO RESPOND
WITH MY OPINION ABOUT
WHETHER THAT WAS APPROPRIATE.
AND SO WE DID PUBLISH A
FOLLOW-UP REPORT WHERE WE GO
INTO SOME DETAIL ABOUT HOW
EQUIVALENT THESE TWO DIFFERENT
KINDS OF GEOGRAPHIES ARE AND WHY
THEY REALLY ARE NOT EQUIVALENT.
>> AND ANY RESPONSE TO THAT ON
YOUR PART?
ANY RESPONSE TO YOUR RESPONSE?
>> NOT FROM ANYBODY WHO'S BEEN
INVOLVED IN THE CASE,
ALTHOUGH WE'VE HAD A POSITIVE
RESPONSE FROM READERS ON IT.
>> SO WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO
RESEARCH IN REGARD
TO THIS ISSUE COMING UP?
>> WELL, WE'LL BE VERY
INTERESTED TO FOLLOW THE SUPREME
COURT CASE OUTCOME AND SEE --
AND ESPECIALLY SEE IF WE WILL BE
REQUIRED TO DRAW NEW BOUNDARIES
IF THE COURT UPHOLDS THE LOWER
COURT'S DECISION THAT THIS WAS A
CASE OF GERRYMANDERING.
>> ALL RIGHT.
MALIA JONES, THANKS VERY MUCH
FOR YOUR WORK.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> IN OUR CLOSER LOOK THIS WEEK,
THE FALLOUT AND REACTION IN THE
WAKE OF THE LAS VEGAS SHOOTING.
THAT SHOOTING HAS PUT
REPUBLICANS ON THE DEFENSIVE
OVER THEIR OPPOSITION TO NEW GUN
RESTRICTIONS AND THEIR EFFORTS
TO ELIMINATE EXISTING ONES.
THIS WEEK REPUBLICANS HALTED AT
LEAST TEMPORARILY A PLAN TO
ADVANCE LEGISLATION MAKING IT
EASIER TO BUY GUN SILENCERS.
THE SHOOTING IN LAS VEGAS THAT
LEFT AT LEAST 59 DEAD AND
HUNDREDS INJURED MAGNIFIED THOSE
EFFORTS.
HOUSE SPEAKER PAUL RYAN SAYS THE
FOCUS SHOULD BE ON MENTAL HEALTH
RATHER THAN ON GUN RESTRICTIONS.
>> SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT AS WE SEE THE DUST SETTLE
AND WE SEE WHAT WAS BEHIND SOME
OF THESE TRAGEDIES,
THAT MENTAL HEALTH REFORM IS
A CRITICAL INGREDIENT TO PREVENT
THESE THINGS FROM HAPPENING IN
THE PAST.
SO THAT'S JUST ONE EXAMPLE OF
THE THINGS THAT CONGRESS HAS
DONE TO TRY AND GET AHEAD OF
THESE PROBLEMS.
>> FOLLOWING THE ATTACK,
WISCONSIN REPUBLICAN U.S.
SENATOR RON JOHNSON, WHO CHAIRS
THE SENATOR HOMELAND SECURITY
AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
COMMITTEE,
SAID MY COMMITTEE WILL WORK TO
SUPPORT THE FEDERAL RULE IN
INVESTIGATING THIS ATTACK AND
PROTECTING
AGAINST FURTHER THREATS.
WE MIGHT UNITE TO DEFEAT THREATS
TO OUR NATION'S SECURITY,
BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.
WISCONSIN'S DEMOCRATIC U.S.
SENATOR, TAMMY BALDWIN, SAID IN
A STATEMENT,
IT'S FRANKLY HARD TO COMPREHEND
A TRAGEDY OF THIS MAGNITUDE.
IT'S EVIL AND SENSELESS.
SO TO MY COLLEAGUES, LET'S MOVE
PAST AND PRAYERS.
IT'S TIME FOR ACTION.
ACCORDING TO WISCONSIN LAW
MACHINE GUNS ARE FOR THE MOST
PART ILLEGAL.
UNDER FEDERAL LAW THERE ARE
EXCEPTIONS.
YOU CAN PURCHASE WHAT'S CALLED A
BUMP STOCK LEGALLY IN WISCONSIN
OR ONLINE, WHICH CAN CONVERT A
SINGLE-FIRE SEMIAUTOMATIC GUN
INTO A FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPON
THAT FILES 400 TO 600.
HOWEVER, IN WISCONSIN,
IT'S A FELONY TO MODIFY A
WEAPON USING THAT DEVICE.
SENATOR JOHNSON AND SPEAKER RYAN
SAID THEY ARE OPEN TO THE IDEA
OF BANNING BUMP STOCKS.
FOXCONN REVEALED THE LOCATION
FOR ITS FACTORY.
THE RACINE COUNTY LOCATION IS IN
THE VILLAGE OF MOUNT PLEASANT.
THE TAIWAN-BASED COMPANY WILL
ACQUIRE MORE THAN 2,500 ACRES
FOR FUTURE EXPANSION
AND CONSTRUCTS STAGING.
FOXCONN WOULD BE BY FAR THE
LARGEST MANUFACTURING CAMPUS IN
THE STATE, WITH AN ESTIMATED
WORKFORCE OF 13,000.
IN ADDITION TO THE $3 BILLION
STATE INCENTIVE PACKAGE,
THE VILLAGE OF MOUNT POLICE AND
RACINE COUNTY WILL PROVIDE
$764 MILLION FOR DEVELOPMENT.
OFFICIALS SAY ALL OF IT WILL BE
REPAID BY TAXES IT GENERATES.
OUR PARTNERS AT WISCONTEXT HAVE ALSO LEARNED
THE CITY OF RACINE WILL PROVIDE WATER FOR THE COMPLEX.

>> THIS WEEK, OUR INSIDE LOOK
EXAMINES A KEY LABOR MARKET
SHIFT IN THE STATE.
WISCONSIN DAIRY FARMERS NOW
DEPEND ON IMMIGRANT LABOR TO
PRODUCE THE AMOUNT OF MILK THAT
RANKS US SECOND IN THE NATION.
BUT WITH IMMIGRATION FEARS AND
AN ALREADY SHORT SUPPLY OF
WORKERS, FARMERS WORRY ABOUT WHO
WILL HELP THEM GET THE CHORES
DONE AND THE MILK TO MARKET
WITHOUT BREAKING THE BANK.
THIS WEEK WE CHECK IN WITH THE
WISCONSIN CENTER FOR
INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM WHICH
ASKED WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO
STABILIZE THE LABOR SITUATION ON
WISCONSIN'S DAIRY FARMS.
WE STARTED BY ASKING MANAGING
EDITOR DEE HALL HOW
FEARS OF DEPORTATION HAVE CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE
FOR FARMERS
AND THEIR IMMIGRANT WORKERS.
>> THAT'S A BIG CONCERN AMONG THE WORKERS.
WE'RE SEEING EVIDENCE THAT SOME
OF THE WORKERS ARE LEAVING IN
ANTICIPATION OF AN IMMIGRATION
CRACKDOWN.
WE HAVEN'T ACTUALLY SEEN
EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S
A CRACKDOWN ON FARMS OR IN
WISCONSIN PARTICULARLY,
BUT THERE IS A FEAR BECAUSE OF
THE RHETORIC SURROUNDING BOTH
THE ELECTION AND THEN THE
ADMINISTRATION'S TALK ABOUT
GETTING RID OF ALL ILLEGAL
IMMIGRANTS.
>> SO THIS WOULD SUGGEST THAT A
CERTAIN NUMBER AT LEAST OF THIS
IMMIGRANT LABOR ARE
UNDOCUMENTED.
>> YES.
IT IS NOT KNOWN IN WISCONSIN,
FOR EXAMPLE,
HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE
UNDOCUMENTED.
WE KNOW NUMBERS ABOUT IMMIGRANTS
AND IT IS PRETTY OVERWHELMINGLY
IMMIGRANT LABOR THAT PRODUCES
MOST OF THE MILK NATIONWIDE.
>> ONE OF YOUR EXPERTS -- AND
THAT WAS KIND OF THE POINT OF
THIS OVERALL COVERAGE, WAS TO
PICK THE BRAINS OF ALL THESE
DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN THIS REGARD.
BUT ONE OF YOUR EXPERTS SAID
IMMIGRATION IS REALLY A SYMPTOM
OF A RURAL LABOR SHORTAGE.
WHAT DOES YOUR REPORTING SHOW
ABOUT THAT TREND?
>> WE HAVE ACTUALLY AT THE
WISCONSIN CENTER FOR
INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM, WE
ACTUALLY DOCUMENTED THAT SEVERAL
YEARS AGO, THAT SOME OF THE MOST
RURAL COUNTIES ARE FACING THE
LARGEST DEPOPULATION, ESPECIALLY
THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT YOU WOULD
EXPECT TO WORK ON DAIRY FARMS.
THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THERE IS A
RURAL LABOR SHORTAGE
OF SOME TYPE.
IT'S CAUSED BY MANY FACTORS.
SO THERE'S A GENERAL RURAL LABOR
SHORTAGE.
AND THEN THERE'S THE SPECIFIC
ONE REGARDING DAIRY FARM.
WE HAVE FEWER FAMILY FARMS.
SO THAT USED TO BE A PIPELINE
FOR PEOPLE TO COME IN AND WORK
AT FARMS.
A LOT ARE CLOSING AND
CONSOLIDATING AND AS A RESULT
YOU DON'T HAVE THE PEOPLE
GROWING UP ON A DAIRY FARMER
WHO ARE READY TO WORK ON ONE WHEN THEY GROW UP.
>> WHY CAN'T THEY BE MITIGATED
BY OFFERING HIGHER WAGES,
WHETHER IT'S TO LOCAL WORKERS OR
IMMIGRANT WORKERS?
>> WELL, IT IS A DEBATE.
IT IS NOT KNOWN WHETHER THAT
WOULD ALLEVIATE THE PROBLEM.
SOME EXPERTS BELIEVE THIS WOULD
SIMPLY NOT BE ENOUGH.
AMERICAN WORKERS DO NOT WANT TO
DO SOME OF THE REALLY HARD AND
DIRTY WORK OF DAIRY FARMING.
IT'S 365 DAYS A YEAR,
24/7, LONG HOURS.
OTHERS BELIEVE THAT IF YOU DID
RAISE THE WAGES SIGNIFICANTLY
ENOUGH THAT IN FACT AT SOME
POINT AMERICAN WORKERS WOULD BE
TEMPTED TO TAKE THE JOB.
>> AND YET THAT WOULD BE
DIFFICULT
FOR THE FARMERS AND THEIR BUSINESSES.
>> EXACTLY, SO THE FARMERS CANNOT CONTROL THE COST OF MILK.
IT'S A FIXED PRICE.
IT'S A COMPLICATED FORMULA.
THEY HAVE TO TAKE WHAT THAT
PRICE IS AND
USE THAT TO RUN THEIR FARMS.
AND WHAT THEY'RE SAYING IS
SOMETIMES THEY WOULD BE CAUGHT
VERY SHORT IF THE PRICE DROPS,
WHICH IT TENDS TO DO.
IT CAN BE PRETTY ERRATIC.
>> AND YET DOES IMMIGRANT LABOR
DRIVE DOWN THE WAGES?
>> THAT IS ONE OF THE CONCERNS
AS WELL,
IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE IMMIGRANT
LABOR,
PEOPLE WHO ARE USED TO MAKING
SIGNIFICANTLY LESS MONEY,
THEY WILL SETTLE FOR
LOWER AGES AND THAT WILL BECOME
THE MARKET RATE FOR THOSE WAGES.
SO THAT'S ANOTHER DEBATE.
I CAN'T ANSWER IT EXCEPT THAT
DEFINITELY THERE'S AN OPINION
OUT THERE THAT THIS IS HAPPENING
AND IT'S MAKING THESE JOBS EVEN
LESS ATTRACTIVE TO AMERICANS.
>> ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU
INTERVIEWED TALKED ABOUT THE
NEED TO AUTOMATE ON THE DAIRY
FARM TO HELP THIS SITUATION.
BUT CAN FAMILY FARMERS OR EVEN
MEDIUM-SIZE FARMS
AFFORD THIS AUTOMATION?
>> THAT CAN BE VERY EXPENSIVE.
SO THAT IS THE QUESTION, IS WHAT
ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND ON
AUTOMATION AND WILL IT REPLACE
ENOUGH LABOR
TO MAKE IT WORTHWHILE.
SOME FARMS ARE FINDING THAT IT
DOES.
SOME ASPECTS OF MECHANIZATION
ARE WORKING,
BUT OTHERS HAVE NOT GONE THAT
DIRECTION YET.
>> YOU ALSO DISCUSSED CHANGING
FEDERAL LAW BECAUSE HOW ARE
DAIRY WORKERS TREATED NOW UNDER
VISA PROGRAMS?
>> WE HAVE VISA PROGRAMS FOR
SEASONAL WORKERS WHO COME TO THE
UNITED STATES TO HARVEST CROPS.
WE DON'T HAVE A SIMILAR PROGRAM
FOR DAIRY WORKERS
WHO NEED TO BE HERE YEAR-ROUND.
THERE ARE SOME MOVES IN CONGRESS
RIGHT NOW TO CREATE A SEPARATE
VISA PROGRAM THAT WOULD MEET THE
NEEDS OF THE FARMERS AND THE
IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE COMING HERE
TO WORK ON THE DAIRY FARMS.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CHANCES OF
THAT PASSING ARE.
BUT THERE IS A RECOGNITION I
THINK NOW FINALLY THAT THIS IS
AN ISSUE THAT NEEDS TO BE
ADDRESSED.
>> THE WISCONSIN CENTER FOR
INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALISM REPORT
ON IMMIGRANT DAIRY WORKERS CAN
BE SEEN ONLINE AND IN
NEWSPAPERS ACROSS THE STATE.

>> IN TONIGHT'S LOOK AHEAD,
THE FUTURE OF BROADCAST NEWS,
SPECIFICALLY PBS.
I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY THIS WEEK
TO INTERVIEW PBS PRESIDENT AND
CEO PAULA KERGER DURING HER
VISIT TO MADISON.
WE DISCUSSED THE ATTACKS ON
MAINSTREAM MEDIA AND THE
CHALLENGES NEWS ORGANIZATIONS
FACE.
I STARTED BY ASKING WHAT SHE
THINKS EXPLAIN POLLS SHOWING
ONLY 24% OF AMERICANS TRUST TV
NEWS.
>> I THINK PART OF WHAT HAS
CONTRIBUTED TO A MISTRUST IN
MEDIA IS WHAT WE OBSERVE IN A
NUMBER OF MEDIA ORGANIZATIONS
THAT BLUR NEWS AND POINT OF
VIEW.
AND I THINK ONE OF THE
PRINCIPLES FOR US IN THE WORK
THAT WE DO IN OUR NEWS COVERAGE
IS WE UNDERSTAND WHAT'S NEWS,
WE UNDERSTAND WHAT'S POINT OF
VIEW,
I THINK BOTH ARE IMPORTANT AND
RELEVANT,
BUT YOU NEED TO KEEP THEM SEPARATED
AND LABEL THEM AS SUCH.
>> IN FACT, YOU HAVE SAID THAT
INMATE TO PBS' CORE IS TO FIND
COMMON GROUND ON EVEN THE MOST
DIVISIVE ISSUES AND THAT YOUR
NETWORK HAS A RELENTLESS QUEST
FOR GETTING AT THE TRUTH.
BUT IN THIS ERA WHERE EVEN
DEMONSTRABLE FACTS CAN BE
RECAST, HOW HAS THE WORK OF
GETTING AT THAT TRUTH CHANGED?
>> I THINK THERE IS A
SIGNIFICANT NEED IN THIS COUNTRY
FOR MEDIA LITERACY AND FOR
PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND,
BEGINNING WITH THE WORK THAT WE
DO WITH KIDS,
TO REALLY UNDERSTAND
IN LOOKING AT ANY STORY
HOW TO FIGURE OUT THE ACCURACY OF THE SOURCES.
SO MANY PEOPLE IF YOU TALK TO
THEM, YOUNG PEOPLE,
YOU TALK TO THEM, WHERE DID YOU
GET THE INFORMATION?
I GOT IT FROM MY PHONE.
THEY DON'T ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION
TO THE SOURCE OF THAT
INFORMATION AND IS IT COMING
FROM A CREDIBLE NEWS SOURCE OR
IS IT COMING FROM, YOU KNOW,
SOMEONE'S BLOG OR IS IT COMING
FROM A NEIGHBOR WHO'S GIVING
OPINION.
AND IT IS A COLLECTIVE EFFORT,
BOTH KIDS AS WELL AS ADULTS,
ON REALLY UNDERSTANDING WHERE
YOU'RE GETTING YOUR INFORMATION
AND THE ACCURACY OF IT.
>> NOW, PBS AND PUBLIC MEDIA IN
GENERAL, OFTEN HAS THE RAP
OF HAVING A LIBERAL BIAS.
WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?
>> WELL, PEOPLE HAVE LEVELED
THAT FROM TIME TO TIME.
I WILL TELL YOU THAT AS WE LOOK
AT DIFFERENT POLLS, YOU KNOW,
WE SEE THAT WE ARE APPEALING TO
PEOPLE OF ALL POLITICAL STRIPES.
AND SO I THINK THAT
THERE ARE PEOPLE
THAT I THINK
BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF
SOME OF THE STORIES
THAT WE REPORT ON
MAY QUESTION
WHETHER THERE IS SOME BIAS.
I'VE BEEN IN THIS JOB THROUGH
THREE ADMINISTRATIONS AND
QUESTION WHETHER WE'RE BEING TOO
HARD OR NOT HARD ENOUGH ON THE
PRESIDENT, YOU KNOW.
THE FACT IS THE PRESIDENT IS IN
A VERY DIFFERENT ROLE
AND IS GOING TO BE WRITTEN ABOUT
CRITICALLY,
WHETHER IT'S A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT
OR A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT.
AND PEOPLE WILL SEE THAT AND
RESPOND TO IT.
I ALSO THINK THAT BECAUSE OF
THE FACT THAT SO MANY MEDIA
ORGANIZATIONS ARE REFLECTING
OPINION ALONGSIDE OF NEWS,
PEOPLE ARE GRAVITATING TO PLACES
WHERE THEY SEE THEIR OWN OPINIONS REFLECTED BACK.
AND SO FOR AN ORGANIZATION LIKE
OURS THAT TRIES DILIGENTLY
EVERY DAY TO REFLECT THE NEWS AS
IT OCCURS,
I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE SOME
PRESSURE FROM THOSE WHO WOULD
LIKE TO SEE THEIR OWN POINT OF
VIEW.

>> WE COULDN'T LET THE WEEK PASS
WITHOUT TELLING YOU ABOUT
A MONUMENTAL SHIFT AT THE STATE
CAPITOL IN A TRADITION
THAT DATES BACK TO 1853.
THAT'S WHEN THE FIRST
LEGISLATIVE BLUE BOOK WAS ISSUED
IN WISCONSIN.
IT'S A ROADMAP OF INFORMATION
ABOUT EVERY STATE LEGISLATIVE
DISTRICT, LAWMAKERS, STATE
OFFICE HOLDER AND
A WHO'S WHO IN WISCONSIN POLITICS.
THE ICONIC BLUE-BOUND BOOK TAKES
ON A DIFFERENT COLOR THIS YEAR, HOWEVER.
STATE LAW MANDATES
THAT THE PINE BE BLUE,
BUT THE FRONT AND BACK COVER
THIS YEAR
ARE REDESIGNED WITH A GRANITE COVER.
THE BOOK ITSELF IS SHORTENED,
SHEDDING NEARLY 300 PAGES.
THE CHIEF OF THE LEGISLATIVE
REFERENCE BUREAU SAYS THIS IS TO
MAKE THE BOOK MORE ACCESSIBLE TO
HIGH SCHOOL CIVICS CLASSES
AS WELL AS REFLECTING
A CITIZENRY MORE PRONE TO LOOKING THINGS UP ONLINE.

>> AND THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR
THIS WEEK.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW"
ISPROVIDED, IN PART,
BY FRIENDS OF WISCONSIN PUBLIC
TELEVISION.