- I'm Frederica Freyberg.
Tonight on "Here and Now," in our first look,
former Governor Tommy Thompson on the future of health care
and his impressions of the new Administration in Washington.
After that, a closer look at state transportation funding.
And in our look ahead,
our political panelists talk President Trump
and forecast Governor Walker's budget due out next week.
It's "Here and Now" for February 3rd.
- Funding for "Here and Now" is provided, in part,
by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.
- A first look tonight at the future of health care
with former Governor Tommy Thompson.
Thompson served as
U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services
under George W. Bush and has been
advising the current administration as it works
to repeal, replace or repair the Affordable Care Act.
Our interview took place earlier this week.
- Governor Thompson, thank you very much for being here.
- It's an honor for me to be here.
I'm so glad to see you again
and be on a program moderated by you.
Thank you and I wish you the best.
- Thank you.
You served as an agency secretary in Washington
and were in politics for a very long time.
We wanted to ask you right of the chutes
what you make of
President Trump's first two weeks in office?
- I think they've been good.
I means he's had some stumbles,
but the truth of the matter is he's doing exactly what he said.
You may disagree with what he's doing, but the truth
of the matter is he hasn't deviated from what he told
the American public that elected him what he was going to do.
I happen to like people that kept their word and do things.
I don't agree with everything he's done so far,
but, you know, the fact that he's done them
and continues to do them,
I give him credit.
I give him high marks for his willingness and his
intestinal fortitude to stick it out and do what he said.
- On some policy matters, you are on record as saying
that you would like to repeal
the Affordable Care Act or Obamacare?
- Well, that's a little bit over-broad statement, Frederica.
What I want to do is I want to fix the health care system
and make it more accessible to everybody,
but also make it affordable and make more--
willing to be more competitive
and allow individuals to have more opportunities.
- Okay. So--
- So you have to amend the Obamacare.
Obamacare is the only major social policy
that only had Democrat votes and as a result of that,
there's been a lot of problems
because it was just one party that passed it.
- So are you saying that you would like to fix Obamacare?
- Yes.
- And not ditch it.
- I don't think you can ditch it.
You know, people say you're going to do it.
But everybody that says they're going to ditch says
but there are a few parts I like.
- Right.
- Such as allowing individual children to be
with their parents on their parents' insurance til 26.
Make sure somebody is not cut off from insurance
after they hit so many expenditures.
Two provisions of Obamacare that everybody seems to like.
So that part is going to stay.
So what I'm talking about, Frederica,
is you have an opportunity now with Republicans in control
of the executive branch, the congressional branch,
you have a chance to fix it and make it better
and that's what I want to see happen.
- You'd like to see that happen, but that doesn't seem
to be the course that is taking shape in Washington right now
because they are moving ahead on some of these resolutions
to basically replace Obamacare,
repeal it and then they want to replace it,
but they don't really have anything bona fide in place yet.
I mean, right? That's what's happening.
- No, Frederica. It's not.
That's what everybody thought was going to happen.
But things have changed in the last week.
They're not talking about that right now.
They're talking about, yes,
repealing and repairing Obamacare and making it better.
They're not talking about completely--
the resolution you're talking about
was an executive order by the president giving--
but in order to change it,
you have to do it in the Congressional body.
- Right.
- And there's lots of problems with that.
And I've been pointing them out to the leadership
in the Executive branch, as Tom Price, and so on.
You just can't do that.
You have to be-- you have to be able to get the votes to do it.
And so far they don't have the votes for a particular plan.
So what you're saying, partially correct,
but not totally correct.
What I'm saying is let's take a look at it.
Let's find where we've got the votes,
but let's improve and make better health care in America
and that's what we can do and that's what America wants.
- And are the people you're talking to
in Washington listening?
- Sure. Absolutely.
Right now, I'll give you three examples
which they can't seem to come to grips with.
That's why, what you said, they're going to just repeal it
and get rid of it.
Number one, if you take away all the taxes
you don't have any money left over to rebuild it.
I pointed that out.
I said, "Do you think the Republicans are going to then,
once they've taken away a trillion dollars in taxes,
turn around and vote for it?
I don't think so.
And I don't think anybody does.
Therefore, you better go slow on the tax repeals at this point
in time, until you know how much money you're going to
have to spend to repair it or rebuild it or replace it.
Second thing is the baseline.
The baseline, you know, that--
on Medicaid, some states took an expanded match.
Wisconsin didn't.
Now, how do you-- how do you--
how do you bring equity to that system?
- Good question.
- How do you bring equity?
Is Wisconsin going to get penalized
because they didn't take the federal money?
I don't think so, not with Speaker Ryan there.
And the states like Republican states that put Trump in office,
Pennsylvania, Ohio and Florida,
are they going to want to take less now? No.
So that's a huge problem.
And they haven't been able to come to grips.
How are they going to do it?
These two-- the taxes, how much taxes they repeal,
and how they develop an equitable system on the baseline
are two problems they have not been able to come to grips with
because you have Republicans on both sides.
The third thing is what is going to go into that?
Are you going to be able to
cross state lines and buy insurance?
What about insurance exchanges?
I talked to Speaker Ryan about that.
Speaker Ryan is actually
the godfather of insurance exchanges.
People don't realize that,
but he was one of the founders of insurance exchanges.
But he wants unlimited exchanges so that whatever insurance
company is going to put out there gets on the exchange,
not a gold, platinum, or bronze or silver.
Whatever Frederica wants to buy, we'll put it on there.
And then the fourth thing is who regulates across state lines?
Is it the state where the insurance company is
or the state where you sell the insurance?
These are problems that have to be developed.
So moving fast is what everybody said they were going to do.
- Right.
- But the problem is they haven't thought through
how they solve these big problems.
- Do you have an answer to the Medicaid problem?
- I think I do. - What is it?
- Well, I think what you have to do
is you have to make sure there's equity.
And I think the only way you're going to have equity
is to bring everybody up to the same baseline.
Because Ohio and Pennsylvania and California,
Florida and Michigan are not going to take less.
- Right.
- And Wisconsin will get crucified if they take less.
We'll be penalized forever.
So I think the only equitable system is
you got to adjust where the baseline is for the highest
and freeze it at that and put an inflationary index in.
If you do that, then you treat equity.
But that costs money.
And therefore go back to my taxes.
- Right.
- If you take care of all the taxes,
there's no money to backfill that.
That's why this thing is not going to move
as rapidly as you indicated in your question.
It's got to have these answers solved
in order to make it happen.
- Now, one thing that you're quoted as saying is that
just like people are required to have car insurance,
they should be required to have health insurance.
Still think that?
- No.
I didn't-- I said take into consideration.
That statement was one that I just had at the noon luncheon.
And that is not what I basically said.
I said this is an example where there's mandatory insurance.
We have car insurance, so you could make the argument that you
should have health insurance.
But you got to be able to get people in the system.
Because if you don't have everybody buying health
insurance, then the healthy are going to stay away
and sick people are going to go in there,
which will drive up the cost
and nobody will want to sell it and nobody will want
to be able to pay for it or will be able to pay for it.
So you got to have a broad parameter.
And that means in order to get people in there,
I'm not big on mandates.
I'm big on trying to make sure that the health care system
is so affordable and accessible, that, Frederica,
this is what you want in a policy
for you and your family, your husband, your family.
This is what I want.
I may not need as much as you do.
So I want to be able to do that.
But I want to be able to go into the system and do that
and not have the government tell me
what I have to have but what I think I should have.
- How do you get at that affordability?
- That's the problem?
You can do it, I think,
by allowing for a lot of information.
You're going to have to have insurance companies.
You're going to have the states and the federal government
really be able to talk to you and explain to you
what health insurance is all about
and be able to try and give you a tutorial on what, Frederica,
at your age level, your marriage status, children you have,
what you need.
And that's going to be an educational thing.
It may not be a gold, silver, platinum.
It may be a thing called a copper program,
which we don't have.
- Do you think the insurance agencies, though, are really
going to want to tailor each kind of health insurance plan
to the individual?
- No, but the insurance exchanges can.
You can set up on the insurance exchanges, Frederica,
all of the things that are out there that company A
is selling and be able to buy into that thing
and you're going to be able to pick and choose.
It's not there yet, but it certainly is conceivable
and could be easily done.
So insurance companies could have it.
And have a-- just like anything.
You go into a grocery store.
- Ala carte. - Ala carte.
You buy what you need and you put it on the insurance program
and this is what I need for myself and my family
and that's how you do it.
- Now, you very much espouse prevention; is that right?
- I'm big on that.
I really sincerely believe, you know,
that the problem we are-- in our society is
133 people over the age of 65
have got one or two or three chronic illnesses.
75% of the cost of health care is because of chronic illnesses.
And that's because of individual decisions.
We still have too many people smoke.
We too many individuals that are overweight.
We have too many individuals that are not exercising.
And we have too many people, you know,
that don't know about nutrition, so on and so forth.
All of these things, exercise, eating properly,
getting the proper amount of sleep,
can do a tremendous amount to make you healthy.
And that's what I'm trying to say.
Let's build-- let's build a healthier society,
which will hold down costs, make you healthier
and put prevention front and center.
91% of health insurance dollars and health care costs
go to fix you.
Only 9% of the money goes to keep you well
in the first place.
Isn't there something wrong with that scenario?
- Now, the ACA had built in a lot of preventive services
that ended up under that law being free.
What do you think of that?
- Well, the problem is somebody's got to pay.
We've got to come to the realization in society
there's nothing free.
Somebody pays for it.
- So do you think that ought to be in
any of the array of the ala carte plans?
- Absolutely.
I think anything dealing with wellness and health
and prevention has got to be
in that array or you're not doing your job.
As I said, 91-92% goes to get you well in the first place
after you get sick.
I want a bigger share of that money to keep Frederica
and Tommy Thompson and all the people who work around here
healthier at the beginning.
And we can do that.
- I want to switch gears to FoodShare and a plan that our
Governor Walker wants to institute requiring
able-bodied parents who are on FoodShare
to either train or work 80 hours a month.
Now, a critic of this that we had on our program last week
said that if you dock parents of FoodShare, that food is
literally going to come out of the mouths of their children.
What do you say to that?
- Well, they said the same thing about me when I put in W-2
and so on and so forth.
I sat down with welfare mothers,
and I had a tremendous exchange with them.
And I said, "Why don't you work?"
If I work, I don't get child care.
If I work, I don't get health insurance.
I said, "What if I give you child care and health insurance?"
Yeah, but I don't have any training.
So I said, "Give them training." And then they said,
"How am I going to get there?"
I said, "I'll set up transportation for you."
I did this.
And so I don't want to be punitive
and I don't think Governor Walker does.
What he wants to do is get people to work.
And there's nothing wrong with that.
And I think if you do it right, roll it out
and get buy-in from people that are doing it.
You know, people want the same thing.
They want a good home.
They want a good education for their children.
They want safe streets.
You know, it's not rocket science.
It's right there.
So let's do that.
Let's make it easier.
- We spoke with former Governor Tommy Thompson
earlier this week.
- Now for our closer look at the state budget,
which Governor Walker presents next Wednesday.
How to make up for the state's transportation shortfall
continues to be a sticky budget issue.
We hit the highway to learn more, as Andy Soth reports
from a travel plaza in western Wisconsin.
- With this location next to Crystal Cave,
the TEAM Oil Travel Center in Spring Valley
is built to handle thousands of tourists that visit each season.
- This building was built by people that do maintenance, not
by people who sit behind a desk.
- But on this frigid January morning,
only a few regulars are here.
[indistinct conversation, laughter]
- There we go. There we go. That's good.
- The team behind TEAM Oil is really Tony Huppert and family.
- Every morning, I come in and say good morning to April.
She says good morning to me. Works out good.
If we both say good morning, we're having a good day.
TEAM stands for Trudy, my wife, Eric, my son
and I'm actually Anthony, and my daughter-in-law is Michelle.
So that's where TEAM comes from.
It was cold, too.
Eric came up with it.
- The 65-year-old is happy, having son Eric onboard.
- He runs the show.
I just have to--
I got the ideal job.
So as far as retiring, here I can act like a boss.
If I'm retired, I'm home with Trudy and she's the boss.
- That gives Huppert the time to sit at the round table with
the regulars.
With last night's snowfall,
weather conditions are on everyone's mind.
- When's the last time you pulled someone
out of the ditch right out here?
- You.
- That was a whiteout that morning.
- The most recent automobile accident is another topic.
- Did you know about that accident out by Martel?
- Phone rings.
Daughter Karen, she works at the title company in River Falls.
She says, "Good, I'm glad you answered the phone.
There's an accident out there."
- It's not you. - Wasn't me.
- Of course, transportation is also a professional interest
for Huppert and an issue he watches closely.
- In a rural area, because less state funding, the early areas
are having to make a decision, as all communities,
what do we do about roads?
So Gilman Township, where this place is located in,
just raised the levy 35%.
TEAM Oil will pay $1300 a year more.
- Huppert's also concerned about a bridge
that's out a few miles away.
It's created a detour for a popular local restaurant.
- You have to go an extra ten miles to get to this place.
Plus I have people stopping here saying they just can't find it.
He employs 90 people on his payroll,
pays in over a half a million dollars in total taxes
and it's going to start up again this spring
and the bridge is still going to be out.
That bridge should have been done six months ago.
- And Huppert is not seeing much help or hope from Madison.
- As far as the transportation fund in Wisconsin, I don't
understand how there can be any hesitation on doing something.
-Legislators have been reluctant to unfreeze the state's gas tax.
And tax revenues have declined as gas mileage has improved.
That means the state's designated transportation fund
is seriously under-funded.
- So where is the money supposed to come from?
There should be the designated transportation fund
or it's got to come out of the general fund.
Well, then when it comes out of the general fund,
you got everybody fighting for that.
You got education fighting for it.
We have to maintain the infrastructure
of the state of Wisconsin.
It isn't because we like pretty roads.
- Huppert is frustrated and
his irritation at the inaction of politicians is growing.
- Somebody's got to get off their butt
and start to realize this is not funny anymore
and, you know, it really irritates me.
Coming from a person with two heart attacks,
my wife says, "Don't get irritated."
- That was Andy Soth reporting.
And this program note.
Governor Scott Walker's State Budget Address
will be carried live on Wisconsin Public Television
at 4:00 p.m. next Wednesday afternoon, February 8.
I'll anchor that broadcast with Wisconsin Public Radio's
State Capitol bureau chief, Shawn Johnson.
- A look ahead to Governor Walker's state budget is next,
but not before getting our political panelists' response
to President Trump's first couple of weeks on the job.
Welcome to One Wisconsin Now's Scot Ross
and managing partner of Capitol Consultants, Bill McCoshen.
Thanks for being here. - Thanks.
- So how about Donald Trump's first two weeks
of shock and awe?
What do you guys make of it?
- I think, first of all, the Muslim ban is exactly the way
the country didn't need to start with the Trump years.
It's something that's unconstitutional.
It turns out it wasn't even vetted by actual security,
National Security folks.
And there are people who are really suffering
because of what he's been doing.
And I think that that sort of typifies the way he's been
running things, which is reckless and without regard
to the implications of what he is doing.
- It's all about results.
It's exactly what voters wanted
when they voted for Donald Trump, including in
the state of Wisconsin first-- the first time since 1984.
He's off to an unbelievable pace in two weeks.
Look at the things he's been able to accomplish already.
The TPP, which voters wanted for the U.S. to get out of,
the acceleration of the Keystone pipeline
which the Obama administration had rejected,
the nomination of a conservative Supreme Court justice.
These are all things he promised on the campaign trail,
and he's actually delivering.
I think what's surprising to the other side is they're not used
to politicians who actually deliver on what they promised
and Donald Trump's doing that.
- You were citing some of those things and I had almost
forgotten them, they are coming at such a rapid pace.
Is that part of the idea here?
- It's the business model.
He's really the first true businessman
we've had in the White House in a very long time,
maybe at his level ever.
And he's used to working 20 hours a day
and seems like he goes to the private quarters and tweets
once he's done working in the office.
But he's getting stuff done.
For him, this is all about results.
He's tired of the status quo.
Voters were tired of the status quo.
They want action in Washington and Donald Trump's bringing it.
- I don't know.
I don't know that they wanted action like what he's doing.
For instance, like a four-year-old child in Iraq,
whose grandparents are citizens, being denied the ability to
come here for the heart surgery that's going to save her life.
I don't think that's what people were asking for.
And I think what we've seen more than anything else
is just how quickly Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell
are going to roll over and do whatever Donald Trump wants
and that is scary because they are supposed to be a check.
- Saving jobs at Carrier, saving jobs at Ford,
making the focus on American jobs,
that's what people wanted.
I think they're excited about it.
Rasmussen Polls show his job approval is at 53%.
Maybe not as high as other presidents
12 days into their presidency,
but I'll tell you what, results are going to take some time.
He's making bold actions early in the administration
and I think it's going to play out pretty well for him
politically and policy-wise.
- Let me ask you about Obamacare.
We had Tommy Thompson on,
who said that repealing Obamacare is "so last week."
So now they want to do surgery and repair it aparently.
What do you make of that?
- I think that Paul Ryan has had more than 2,500 days
since the ACA passed the House of Representatives
and he still doesn't have a plan.
He doesn't have a plan to prevent 30 million people
losing their health care.
He doesn't have a plan to ensure that preexisting conditions
are no longer denying people health care
or the fact that being a woman is a preexisting condition.
I mean they have had time to do this.
They have no answers.
I think they're delaying, delaying, delaying.
What's going to end up happening is they're going to put it off
so that the effects of the cuts don't come
until after the 2018 election, but the cuts are coming.
- Tommy Thompson's my mentor.
He's a surrogate father to me.
I wouldn't question him because
he's certainly involved both with Paul Ryan,
with the president himself and with Reince Priebus.
But I would say this.
ACA repeal was last week.
It's this week. It's next week.
It's going to happen.
The Republicans ran on this time and time again.
The House Republicans actually passed it 67 times,
the repeal of it, and the Senate rejected it.
They're going to do and they're going to do it in 2017.
- As your mentor says, "It's complicated."
Let me ask about Act 10 going national.
- Yeah.
- Well, what have been the results here?
We are near the bottom of job creation in the Midwest.
Just last year we lost 2,700 manufacturing jobs.
We are divided as never before.
Education has been able to be cut by nearly $2 billion
and student loan debt has gone up
so those are the results of Act 10.
- Act 10 has proven to be successful.
Wisconsin saved more than $5 billion since it's been enacted.
And I'll tell you what.
This is one where Donald Trump is probably
a little bit different than what we did here in Wisconsin.
You saw that he had union leaders in the White House,
literally in the Oval Office on day two or day three
of his administration.
They left there saying nicer things about him than
they said about the previous president, Barack Obama.
So there is a difference between public sector employees
and private sector union employees
and I think Donald Trump is going to try and walk that line.
- Looking ahead to Scott Walker's budget, it looks like
he's going to be talking about the Earned Income Tax Credit,
giving more money to rural schools and then a little bit
of Tommy Thompson's kind of welfare reform
with FoodShare beneficiaries.
So this seems like a budget
that's like something for everyone.
- Yeah, in the third year, you try and build a budget,
especially if you're going to run for reelection.
What we used to say in the Thompson administration
is you win reelection in the third year.
You lose it in the fourth year.
In other words, do the right things in the budget
and the politics should take care of itself
unless you make a big mistake in the fourth year.
I think Governor Walker calls it a reform dividend.
There is extra money this time around,
which is new to Wisconsin for the last three budget cycles.
So look for Governor Walker to spread that to K-12 schools,
to higher education and to take care of some of the needy
here in the state.
- Let's take the Earned Income Tax Credit.
We have raised taxes under Governor Walker $144 million
on the working poor as a result of what he did
with the Earned Income Tax Credit in his first budget.
Now he's going to give back $20 million.
That I think makes him $124 million short.
His rural schools initiative.
He literally had his three events at three schools
that have seen their aid drop by double digits
under Scott Walker.
So yes, he is trying to do his reelection budget
and he's very good at that because it is all he knows.
But the fact is our budget is in a mess.
We can't pay for education.
We can't pay for higher education,
and we certainly can't pay for our roads.
- We know that he inherited a mess
from the previous administration and he fixed it.
- Come on.
- Made some tough decisions.
Had to make very tough choices.
Now as he calls it, we have a reform dividend
and he's going to start to give that back.
- Jim Doyle was last on the ballot 11 years ago.
It's time to let go of that talking point.
- We need to leave it there. Thank you very much.
Now for an update away from the State Capitol.
This week, UW-Madison Chancellor Rebecca Blank proposed
free tuition for all first generation college students
who transfer from one of the state's two-year colleges.
But the proposal, which Blank announced
during a Board of Regents meeting Thursday,
depends she says, on whether
the UW System gets sufficient new investment from the state.
- And finally tonight, a look ahead to next week.
The head of immigration assistance
for Wisconsin Lutheran Social Services will be here
for an update on the U.S. travel ban's impact in Wisconsin.
And look for our live coverage
of Governor Walker's Budget Address
on Wednesday, February 8, at 4:00 p.m.
I'm Frederica Freyberg.
Have a great weekend.
- Funding for "Here and Now" is provided, in part,
by Friends of Wisconsin Public Television.