- Is what's being described as cyber sabotage
on the part of the Russians bad CIA intelligence
or even Democrats looking for a scapegoat in a losing election
or is it serious and nefarious?
We wanted to check in with an expert on Russia.
He's UW-Madison's Sociology Professor Ted Gerber
who's traveling right now but agreed to join us by phone.
He's in Amsterdam.
And professor, thanks for joining us.
- Thank you. It's my pleasure.
- As an expert on Russia, what's been your reaction to
this cyber intrusion or hacking during the 2016 election that
the CIA attributes to Russia and now directly to Vladimir Putin?
- My own view is that it's a very serious threat and I'm not
at all surprised that the Russians would take this step.
They've been known to have tried to manipulate elections in other
countries all over the world, but particularly in their own
neighborhood in places like Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia.
They've invested a lot of resources in manipulating their
own elections, so the ruling party in Russia is quite adept
at the whole concept of interfering in election results.
And finally, they've accused the U.S., the United States
government, of taking measures to try to interfere in the
electoral processes in other countries.
So from their perspective, it's a sort of a fair game,
tit-for-tat type of message to send to the United States.
So I certainly think there's the claims that the CIA and others
have made are very credible.
I don't think those who are skeptical of those claims
really have much grounds for their skepticism
other than their own partisan self-interest.
- What does Russia get out of this?
- Well, I think Russia-- a number of things.
So I actually think that probably going into this
process, I doubt that the Russians actually thought they
could alter the outcome of the election.
My suspicion is that going into this,
they calculated that Clinton would most likely win,
but they could give her some problems.
They could cause some concerns.
They could undermine her legitimacy and they could raise
questions about the legitimacy of the American electoral
process.
I think they're absolutely delighted by -- so those would
have been legitimate goals from their perspective in and of
themselves because from their standpoint part of their
argument in recent years has been that the west is corrupt.
It's hypocritical.
The United States is an aggressive power
seeking world domination, and it uses notions such as
democracy and human rights and civic freedoms as an excuse
to pursue its own political and economic interest.
And so by casting doubt on the legitimacy of the American
electoral process, the Russians figured that they could further
that argument in the court of world public opinion.
- Now, you know, just back to kind of our elections,
it's reported that a super PAC tied to Speaker Paul Ryan used
leaked material from hacks in political ads in congressional
race, any yet his spokesperson he says he finds foreign
intervention in our elections unacceptable.
What kind of position does this put leaders in in the U.S.?
- Well it does put them in a difficult position.
I think without question the partisan interest of those who
have benefited from the Russian hacking; that is, Donald Trump,
the president-elect, and also various Republicans who have
used this information to their advantage,
it puts those partisan interests in conflict with the interests
of the country.
And so I think the media, I think other politicians,
I think public leaders need to really ask those who use this
material where their loyalties lie, first and foremost.
I think, you know, naturally in our hyper-partisan political
environment in the United States,
politicians have a tendency to frame everything through the
question of whether it's going to help their electoral
interests and those of their party.
But one would hope, anyway, that at some point the interests of
the country and the interests of protecting the country's
institutions would come first.
So I think this does raise some very awkward questions for
Speaker Ryan and for others, including the President-elect,
who has been very dismissive of the possibility that Russia has
actively intervened to benefit him in the election.
But it does raise serious questions.
And I really hope that our social institutions,
including the mass media, are up to the task of pushing this
issue hard and not letting it dwindle or disappear,
because I think it raises fundamental questions about--
poses fundamental challenges to our country
and our political system.
- All right.
Professor Ted Gerber, we need to leave it there.
Thanks very much for taking time out to join us.
- Thank you.