>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF
WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.
>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT, A SPECIAL EDITION OF
"HERE AND NOW."
WE'RE GOING TO EXPLORE HOW ONE
PIECE OF ART HELPED -- AND
HINDERED -- CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
RACE RELATIONS IN MILWAUKEE.
FOR ONE NEIGHBORHOOD, IT RAISED
QUESTIONS HOW TO EVEN START A
DIALOGUE ABOUT THAT IMPORTANT
TOPIC.
IN THE ART WORLD, MURALS HAVE
BECOME A POPULAR VEHICLE OF
EXPRESSION.
IB STEADINSTEAD OF TRYING TO PERSUADE
PEOPLE INTO AN ART GALLERY,
MURALS CAN BRING A MESSAGE TO
THE MASSES.
NOW MEET A MILWAUKEE MAN MAKES
HIS FIRST FORAY IN PUBLIC ART.
A MURAL CAN GENERATE MORE
QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS.
THERE'S A SAYING THAT
CONVERSATION IS AN ART FORM.
>> GOING UP.
>> FOR MILWAUKEE ARTIST ADAM
STONER, ART IS HOW HE STARTS A
CONVERSATION.
>> IT BECOMES A THING THAT
ALLOWS ME TO CONTEMPLATE ISSUES
THAT I THINK AREN'T BEING DEALT
WITH EITHER IN MYSELF OR IN
SOCIETY AS A WHOLE.
>> THE ISSUES CLOSEST TO
STONER'S HEART INVOLVE MASS
INCARCERATION.
HE SPENT A YEAR WORKING AS A
CHAPLAIN FOR INCARCERATED YOUTH
IN MICHIGAN, AN EXPERIENCE THAT
DEEPLY AFFECTED HIM.
>> I SORT OF SAW THE
SCHOOL-TO-PRISON PIPELINE, AS
PEOPLE CALL IT, ACTUALLY
HAPPENING.
>> IN WISCONSIN, THE
INCARCERATION RATE FOR
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN IS AMONG
THE HIGHEST IN THE NATION.
ACCORDING TO THE LAST U.S.
CENSUS IN 2010, WISCONSIN WAS
RANKED FIRST IN THE COUNTRY AT
12.8%.
THAT'S ONE IN EIGHT
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MEN.
>> WE HAVE TO LOOK CRITICALLY AT
THAT SYSTEM AND THINK ABOUT WHY
DOES THIS PLAGUE THIS ONE
COMMUNITY SO MUCH.
>> STONER HOPED TO BRING
ATTENTION TO THAT STATISTIC WITH
THAT MURAL FOR BLACK CAT ALLEY,
AN OUTDOOR STREET ART GALLERY ON
MILWAUKEE'S EAST SIDE.
THE MURAL DEPICTED AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MANITOU MAN TOWERING
OVER THE ALLEY IN AN ORANGE
JUMPSUIT.
>> IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT WE
TALK ABOUT THIS WITH ALL THE
THINGS GOING ON IN MILWAUKEE AS
IT INVOLVES RACE AND CLASS AND
SEGREGATION.
I THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT
WE HONESTLY AND CANDIDLY BRING
IT UP.
>> STONER WOULD START A
CONVERSATION, JUST NOT THE ONE
HE INTENDED.
LESS THAN A WEEK AFTER THE MURAL
WAS UNVEILED, MILWAUKEE ARTIST
KARI GARON POSTED A PUBLIC
STATEMENT ON HER FACEBOOK PAGE.
IT READ "THE SOARING BLACK MAN
IN PRISON ORANGE IS NOTHING MORE
THAN ANOTHER SYMBOL OF
OPPRESSION.
PERHAPS IT WAS PAINTED WITH THE
INTENT TO GENERATE DISCUSSION,
TO DRAW ATTENTION, TO EMPHASIZE
WITH THE HUMAN CONDITION.
BUT ARE SUCH GOODWILL OFFERINGS
OF VISIBILITY ENOUGH?
WHEN I LOOK AT IT, I DON'T SEE
ANOTHER AGGRESSION.
>> CAR CAR ON CALLED SHE CALLED FOR THE MURAL TO
BE REMOVED.
>> WE HAVE ENOUGH NEGATIVE
DEPICTION OF US
AFRICAN-AMERICANS IN THE ARTS AS
IT IS, FILM, MUSIC, YOU KNOW,
FORTH AND SO ON.
SO FOR ME, IT WAS NOT AN
UPLIFTING MURAL TO BE VIEWED.
>> JEANETTE WRIGHT-CLAUS IS A
MILWAUKEE ARTIST.
SHE ALSO HAS TWO SONS IN PRISON.
SHE BELIEVES STONER AND BLACK
CAT ALLEY ORGANIZERS FAILED TO
CONVEY THE CONTEXT OF STONER'S
MESSAGE TO THE COMMUNITY.
>> YOU'RE GOING TO DO THIS
SUBJECT MATTER, LIKE
AFRICAN-AMERICAN SUBJECT MATTER
LIKE THIS, IT'S A GOOD THING TO
AT LEAST EXPLAIN WHERE YOU'RE
COMING FROM BEFOREHAND, I THINK.
>> I THINK IT'S CONTEXT, AND I
THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T KNOW
ADAM'S STORY.
>> DELLA WELLS IS AN ARTIST WHO
HAS SPENT DECADES IN THE
MILWAUKEE ART SCENE.
>> I THINK THAT THE STORY NEEDED
TO BE CLEARER, BUT, YOU KNOW,
BUT WHOSE RESPONSIBLE?
WAS THAT ADAM'S RESPONSIBILITY
OR BLACK CAT ALLEY?
>> IT WAS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY,
BUT MEANT TO BE VIEWED BY THE
COMMUNITY.
THAT CAN CREATE DIVERSION.
>> I DO BELIEVE ARTISTS HAVE THE
RIGHT TO CREATE WHAT THEY WANT,
BUT THE PUBLIC ALSO HAS A RIGHT
NOT TO PLIEK LIKE WHAT THE ARTIST
CREATES.
>> FOR ISSUES LIKE
INCARCERATION, ARTISTS SHOULD BE
STIRRING THE POT.
>> HOW DO YOU GET IT TO THE
FOREFRONT?
YOU MAKE CONTROVERSIAL
STATEMENTS WHEN YOU'RE SOMEONE
WHO'S VOICELESS THROUGH THE
MEDIUM THAT YOU HAVE, WHICH IS
ART.
>> WILLIE WEAVER-BEY IS AN
AWARD-WINNING ARTIST.
HE ALSO SPENT 40 YEARS IN PRISON
ON DRUG CHARGES BEFORE BEING
RELEASED IN 2015.
HE'S A FAN OF STONER'S WORK.
>> WHO TALKS ABOUT BLACK MALE
INCARCERATION?
NO ONE.
THEY DON'T EVEN CARE.
YOU JUST A NUMBER.
YOU STOP EVEN BEING A PERSON.
YOU BECOME 69034-359.
FOR DECADES.
WHAT ADAM DISPLAYED IN THE MURAL
IS BASICALLY EVERYDAY LIFE FOR
MANY OF US, YOU KNOW?
>> SOME QUESTIONED WHETHER
STONER WAS THE RIGHT PERSON TO
PRESENT THIS MESSAGE.
MILWAUKEE HAS A LONG HISTORY OF
RACIAL TENSION.
IT'S A FRAGILE TIGHTROPE FOR ANY
ARTIST TO CROSS.
>> I DON'T THINK THERE WOULD
HAVE BEEN AS MUCH OF A
CONTROVERSY IF IT HAD HAVE BEEN
COMING FROM AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN
ARTIST.
>> I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF
HISTORY THAT -- THAT'S COME TO
LIGHT BECAUSE OF THIS MURAL.
BUT FOR ME, REGARDLESS OF WHAT
HIS RACE IS, IF HE'S SPEAKING ON
THIS BEING A NEGATIVE, HEY, MY
HAT'S OFF TO HIM.
IF HE'S SPEAKING ON THIS BEING
THE NORM, YOU KNOW, I HAVE ISSUE
-- TAKE ISSUE WITH THAT.
>> REALLY THERE'S NO BLACK OR
WHITE.
BLACK IS NOT EVEN A COLOR.
WHITE ISN'T, EITHER.
YOU KNOW?
IT'S THE LABELS THAT WE AS
PEOPLE PUT ON THINGS.
AND I THINK THAT PEOPLE SHOULD
TAKE ANOTHER LOOK, TRY TO ASK
SOME QUESTIONS.
WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?
WHAT WAS THE STATEMENT YOU WERE
TRYING TO CONVEY?
>> IS DELLA WELLS WORRIES THAT
SOCIETY HAS BECOME TOO
POLARIZED.
THE ART OF CONVERSATION HAS BEEN
LOST.
>> I THINK IT'S TOO EASY TO BEAT
PEOPLE ON THE HEAD.
YOU BEAT PEOPLE ON THE HEAD, YOU
NEVER GET ANYTHING RESOLVED.
I'M MORE ABOUT DIALOGUE.
>> BLACK CAT ALLEY ORGANIZERS
DECLINED AN INTERVIEW FOR THIS
STORY.
STONER STARTED OUT TO DIALOGUE
ON HIS OWN.
HE HELD A COMMUNITY MEETING TO
ENCOURAGE DISCUSSION OF HIS
WORK.
>> THE ONLY WAY THAT WE CAN
CREATE A DIALOGUE ABOUT BEING
WHETHER IT'S BLACK OR WHITE OR
RACE OR WHATEVER IS TO BEGIN TO
HAVE CONVERSATIONS.
>> SOME VOICED SUPPORT FOR THE
MURAL.
OTHERS BELIEVED IT WAS A
NEGATIVE STEREOTYPE.
STONER SAYS IT WAS A LEARNING
EXPERIENCE.
>> THERE'S A REAL DIFFICULTY IN
PUBLIC ART.
AS SOMEONE SAID IN THE THE
MEETING, IT'S A COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT BEAST THAN A GALLERY
SHOW AND YOU'RE ACCOUNTABLE FOR
A LOT MORE.
>> WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO TACKLE
THESE TOPICS: FIRST AMENDMENT
RIGHTS, MASS INCARCERATION,
RACIAL DIVISION.
ADAM STONER'S MURAL RAISED A
NUMBER OF COMPLEX QUESTIONS,
SOME THAT HAVE BEEN DEBATED IN
THIS COMMUNITY FOR DECADES.
THEY WON'T BE SOLVED IN A SINGLE
MEETING AND THEY WEREN'T IN THIS
ONE.
AFTER TWO HOURS, THERE WAS NO
FINAL DECISION ON THE MURAL'S
FATE.
THERE WAS A FACE-TO-FACE
CONVERSATION, THOUGH, AND FOR
ADAM STONER THAT'S A SUCCESS.
>> I HAVE HOPE THAT THERE IS A
WAY THAT WE CAN TELL THIS STORY,
THIS STORY OF MASS INCARCERATION
IN WISCONSIN, AND IN AMERICA,
THAT ENDS WITH SOME KIND OF REAL
CLOSURE.
>> THAT STORY WAS PRODUCED BY
TREVOR KELLER AND RYAN WARD.
THEY TELL IT US THE MURAL ARTIST
ADAM STONER PLANS TO INSTALL A
STATEMENT ALONGSIDE HIS PIECE
PROVIDING CONTEXT.
STONER IS ALSO ADVOCATING FOR
BLACK CAT ALLEY TO INVITE A
MILWAUKEE-BASED AFRICAN-AMERICAN
ARTIST TO TAKE HIS SPOT IN THE
EVENT NEXT NIEWR.
-- YEAR.
IT RAISES MANY QUESTION.
PERHAPS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST
IS THE NEED TO START A
CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE
RELATIONS.
MR. WEAVER-BEY IS HERE IN THE
STUDIO TONIGHT.
HE'S JOINED BY TWO OTHERS WHO
WORK FULL-TIME ON THAT QUESTION.
THEY ARE RACHEL KRINSKY, CEO OF
THE MADISON YWCA AND TRACEY
ROBERTSON, COFOUNDER OF FIT
OSHKOSH, A NONPROFIT WITH A
MISSION TO INCREASE RACIAL
LITERACY IN WINNEBAGO COUNTY AND
ACROSS WISCONSIN AND WE WELCOME
ALL OF YOU HERE TO AWR STUDIOS.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
I WANTED TO START WITH YOU,
WILLIE, AND IN THE STORY, AGAIN,
YOU SAID THAT YOU FEEL LIKE WE
NEED TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION,
A DIALOGUE ON ISSUES OF RACIAL
DIVISION.
IN YOUR MIND, WHERE DO WE START?
>> WELL, FIRST YOU START BY
BEING WILLING TO TALK TO SOMEONE
OR ANYONE ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL
ABOUT RACE RELATIONS.
IN AMERICA, NO ONE WANTS TO TALK
ABOUT RACE RELATIONS.
IF YOU SEE ME WALKING DOWN THE
STREET, I DON'T CARE IF I'M
DRESSED LIKE THIS OR IF I JUST
GOT ON A JOGGING SUIT.
MOST WHITE AMERICANS WILL CROSS
THE STREET, CRINGE, GRAB THEIR
PURSE LIKE I'M A PARIAH OR
SOMETHING, LIKE I'M GOING TO
ATTACK YOU.
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ME AND YET
YOU'VE ALREADY STEREOTYPED ME
AND PASSED JUDGMENT BECAUSE OF
WHAT YOU SEE IN THE MEDIA.
>> AND SO I WANT TO ASK RACHEL
THAT SAME QUESTION.
WHERE DO YOU THINK WE START THIS
CONVERSATION, THIS DIALOGUE?
>> IT'S A HUGE QUESTION,
FREDERICA.
BECAUSE IT'S MORE THAN RACE
RELATIONS.
WE DO HAVE TO BE ABLE TO TALK TO
EACH OTHER AND GET PAST
STEREOTYPES.
BUT SO MUCH OF WHAT'S HAPPENING
AROUND RACE IS ABOUT POLICY, AND
THE ENTIRE CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM NEEDS TO BE REEXAMINED.
THERE ARE SO MANY PLACES THAT WE
ARE SET UP, WE'RE SET UP BY THE
MEDIA, WE'RE SET UP BY OLD
HOUSING LAWS THAT CREATED
SEGREGATION, WE'RE SET UP BY THE
CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM TO BE
SEPARATE FROM ONE ANOTHER AND TO
NOT HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS
BACK AND FORTH.
AND ALL OF THOSE PIECES CONNECT
TO EACH OTHER.
>> TRACEY ROBERTSON, YOU FOCUS
ON RACIAL LITERACY IN WINNEBAGO
COUNTY.
WHAT IS IT TO BE RACIALLY
LITERATE?
>> IT'S TO HAVE THE TOOLS,
CONTEXT, HISTORY AROUND RACE TO
BE ABLE TO ENGAGE IN THAT IN A
REAL AND AUTHENTIC WAY.
AND THAT'S THE WORK WE DO AT FIT
OSHKOSH.
WE THINK IT'S CRITICALLY
IMPORTANT.
WHEN RACHEL WAS SAYING THAT THE
SYSTEMS ARE PROBLEMATIC, SHE'S
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WE DON'T SEE PEOPLE RUNNING
AROUND IN HOODS.
WE SEE RACISM AND SYSTEMIC
POLICIESSYSTEMICCHALLENGES IN THE POLICIES AND
LAWS THAT HELP SOME PEOPLE TO
HAVE MORE OPPORTUNITY THAN
OTHERS.
AND SO THAT'S WHAT WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT HERE.
NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUALS, BUT ABOUT
POLICIES AND PRACTICES THAT HAVE
US WHERE WE ARE TODAY.
>> YOU KNOW, WILLIE, YOUR FIRST
RESPONSE WAS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU
WANT PEOPLE TO COME TOGETHER AND
SPEAK TO ONE ANOTHER, BUT THAT
YOU FEEL LIKE AS A BLACK MAN IF
YOU'RE ON THE STREET AND NO
MATTER HOW YOU LOOK OR WHAT
YOU'RE WEARING, A WHITE PERSON
WOULD CROSS THE STREET.
WELL, WOULD YOU WANT THAT WHITE
PERSON TO COME UP TO YOU AND
SAY, HEY, HOW YOU DOING?
I MEAN, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN,
THAT INTERACTION?
>> FOR HE ME, IT WOULD BE OKAY
BECAUSE YOU LEARN ABOUT THINGS
OF THE WORLD BY ENGAGING IN
CONVERSATION ABOUT THINGS OF THE
WORLD.
I AGREE WITH BOTH OF THEM, THAT
THE POLICIES, THE SYSTEMIC
POLICIES THAT HAVE BEEN CREATED,
THE WAY THAT WE ARE VIEWED AS
AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALES OR
ASIATIC MALES IS SYSTEMATIC.
THE WAY THE POLICE TARGET US
WHEN WE DRIVE DOWN THE STREET IS
SYSTEMATIC.
>> OKAY.
SO IF THIS IS POLICY KIND OF
BASED OR GENERATED, HOW DO
INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE GET BEYOND THE
POLICIES THAT YOU SAY, YOU KNOW,
EMBRACE THIS?
>> THAT'S MY FAVORITE QUESTION,
SO I'M GOING TO GIVE MY FAVORITE
ANSWER, WHICH I SAY ALL THE
TIME, WHICH IS THAT IF EVERY
PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY WOULD TRY
AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THEIR
OWN SPHERE OF INFLUENCE,
MEANING, YES, IF YOU SEE WILLIE
ON THE STREET, IT WOULD BE REAL
NICE TO SAY HI IF YOU SAY HI TO
OTHER PEOPLE ON THE STREET, BUT
ALSO WHO DO YOU HIRE?
WHO DO YOU ASSOCIATE WITH?
WHERE DO YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY?
WE ALL HAVE DECISIONS WE MAKE
EVERY DAY ABOUT HOW WE ENGAGE
WITH THE WORLD.
AND PARTICULARLY AS WHITE
PEOPLE, IF WE DON'T HAVE SOME OF
THIS LITERACY AND WE DON'T
UNDERSTAND HOW OUR DAILY
INTERACTIONS CAN SUPPORT
EXISTING SYSTEMS, THEN WE'RE NOT
CHANGING THEM.
AND ONE OF MY BIGGEST CONCERNS
ABOUT WELL-MEANING WHITE PEOPLE
IS THAT I THINK THERE ARE A LOT
OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY DO BELIEVE
THAT IF THR THEY'RE JUST NICE TO
PEOPLE OF COLOR, THEN EVERYTHING
IS GOING TO BE FINE.
>> TRACEY ROBERTSON, ON THIS
RACIAL LITERACY, HOW DO PEOPLE
BECOME RACIALLY LITERATE?
>> SO WE DO IT AT FISH FIT OSHKOSH
THROUGH BOOKS, VIDEO, FILMS.
WE WOULD A TAKE A CLIP LIKE WE
SAW TODAY AND INVITE PEOPLE AND
SAY LET'S EXPLORE WHAT WE SEE
HERE.
WHAT IS THE INTENT?
WHAT IS THE IMPACT?
HOW DO WE CHANGE THE NARRATIVE?
WHY SHOULD WE CHANGE THE
NARRATIVE?
WHO DOES THIS IMPACT?
WHAT DOES THIS CHANGE?
WE WOULD TAKE A DEEP DIVE INTO
WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE.
WE'RE ALL GETTING MESSAGES ALL
THE TIME.
THERE ARE MESSAGES ABOUT HOW
WE'RE SUPPOSED TO ENGAGE AS A
CULTURE, RIGHT?
SO WHAT WE ASK PEOPLE TO DO IS
DIVE IN, HAVE THOSE REALLY
CHALLENGING CONVERSATIONS TO
LOOK AT THINGS WITH A REALLY
CRITICAL EYE AND SAY WHERE IS
THIS MESSAGING COMING FROM, WHAT
DOES IT MEAN?
IN ALL THE PLACES THAT I WORK,
PLAY AND INFLUENCE.
THOSE CONVERSATIONS ARE REALLY
CRITICAL.
>> HAS THAT BEEN SUCCESSFUL FOR
YOU?
>> WE THINK SO.
LAST YEAR WE DID A COMMUNITY
READ OF A BOOK "BETWEEN THE
WORLD AND ME."
WE HAD 339 PEOPLE IN OSHKOSH,
WISCONSIN SIT DOWN AND READ THIS
REALLY CHALLENGING BOOK ABOUT
POLICE ENGAGEMENT WITH BLACK
MEN.
IT'S BEEN REALLY POWERFUL.
PEOPLE ARE STILL HAVING THOSE
CONVERSATIONS, STILL DOING THAT
REFLECTION.
AND FOR ME IT'S NOT ABOUT
PEOPLE'S COMFORT, IT'S NOT ABOUT
PEOPLE NEED TO BE COMFORTABLE IN
THESE CONVERSATIONS.
PEOPLE NEED TO HAVE THESE
CONVERSATIONS.
THAT'S WHERE I'LL START.
>> BECAUSE THESE CONVERSATIONS
VERY OFTEN MUST NOT BE VERY
COMFORTABLE.
>> YES.
I WOULD SAY SO.
I WOULD SAY FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
NOT PEOPLE OF COLOR, ABSOLUTELY.
YOU'VE HAD NO PRACTICE.
WHAT WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT, THE KEY
IS TO BE COLOR-BLIND, RIGHT?
THE ANSWER IS TO JUST PRETEND
LIKE RACE DOESN'T EXIST, THAT WE
DON'T CECLOR.
AND IN OUR WORK WE'RE
CHALLENGING PEOPLE WITH THAT ALL
THE TIME.
WE'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO BE
COLOR-BRAVE, NOT ALWAYS HAVING
THE RIGHT ANSWERS OR THE WORDS,
BUT STEPPING OUT AND HAVING THE
DIALOGUE EVEN THOUGH YOU DON'T
FEEL EQUIPPED TO DO THAT.
>> WILLIE, YOU WERE INCARCERATED
FOR 40 YEARS.
>> YES.
>> HAVE THINGS CHANGED FROM WHEN
YOU WENT IN TO WHEN YOU GOT OUT
JUST LAST YEAR?
>> NOT VERY MUCH.
I THINK EDUCATION IS A KEY IN
THUNGSTHINGS THAT WE DO.
WHEN I WENT INTO PRISON, I WAS A
FUNCTIONING ILLITERATE, BUT I
TAUGHT MYSELF BECAUSE I FOUND
THAT THE EDUCATION I GAVE MYSELF
WAS FAR BETTER THAN THE
EDUCATION THAT WAS GIVEN TO ME.
I BECAME AWARE OF WHO I WAS AND
WHAT I WAS.
MOST PEOPLE WHEN YOU ASK THEM
"WHO ARE YOU?"
, THEY GIVE YOU THEIR NAME.
THEY DON'T GIVE YOU WHO THEY
ARE.
SO WHEN YOU LEARN WHO YOU ARE,
WHEN YOU LEARN WHO YOUR
ANCESTORS ARE AND THE TRIALS AND
TRIBULATIONS THAT THEY WENT
THROUGH TO ALLOW YOU TO STAND ON
THEIR SHOULDERS TO CONTINUE TO
EVOLVE AND EXIST, THEN THAT'S A
VERY POWERFUL THING THAT HAPPENS
IN YOUR LIFE.
SO WHEN I LEARNED WHO I WAS AND
THAT I -- THAT PRISON WOULD NOT
BE THE DEFINING MOMENT FOR ME,
THAT THAT DIDN'T DEFINE WHO I
WAS, I TAUGHT MYSELF HOW TO
REALLY READ BECAUSE I DIDN'T
READ.
I JUST PRONOUNCED WORDS, BECAUSE
I LEARNED THAT COMPREHENSION IS
THE REAL KEY TO READING,
UNDERSTANDING WHAT IT IS THAT
YOU READ.
SO WHEN I TAUGHT MYSELF THESE
THINGS AND I BEGAN TO BECOME
AWARE OF WHO MY ANCESTORS WERE
-- WE HAD A NAME BEFORE WE WERE
CALLED NEGRO, BLACK,
AFRICAN-AMERICAN, COLORED, ALL
THESE THINGS.
WE WERE MORE.
SO WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT
MEANS, WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND HOW
YOU EVOLVE FROM ONE -- WE'RE THE
ONLY RACE OF PEOPLE IN THE
COUNTRY THAT HAS HAD A NAME
CHANGE EVERY 15 OR 20 YEARS OR
MORE.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT?
I WANT TO BRING THIS BACK.
I APPRECIATE YOUR PERSPECTIVE.
AND I ASKED YOU ABOUT THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.
BUT I WANT TO BRING THIS BACK TO
THE TOPIC THAT WAS AT HAND IN
THAT STORY THAT TREVOR AND RYAN
DID.
SOME PEOPLE TOOK EXCEPTION, AS
YOU KNOW, TO THE IDEA OF A WHITE
MAN REPRESENTING A BLACK MAN'S
PLIGHT.
WHAT IS ALL OF YOURS'
PERSPECTIVE ON WHO SHOULD SPEAK
TO RACIAL JUSTICE, RACIAL
ISSUES, RACISM?
>> SO I BELIEVE THAT THE STATE
OF WISCONSIN HAS A LITTLE OVER
6% AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY.
THE ENTIRE STATE.
AND SO IF WE WAITED UNTIL THAT
6% WERE THE VOICE OF THESE
IMPORTANT TOPICS, WE'D BE PRETTY
STUCK.
I THINK IT'S CRITICAL OF
NONPEOPLE OF COLOR ARE HAVING
THESE CONVERSATIONS.
I THINK WHAT TENDS TO HAPPEN,
THOUGH, IS THOSE ALLIES DON'T
VET THE THINGS WITH THE
COMMUNITIES THEY'RE HOPING TO
SUPPORT.
THAT'S WHERE THESE OPPORTUNITIES
FALL SHORT.
>> RACHEL?
>> I THINK THAT'S HUGE.
IT REALLY IS IMPORTANT TO VET.
BUT I WILL ALSO ADD TO THAT THAT
WE HAVE A FICTION THAT ALL
PEOPLE OF COLOR THINK THE SAME
THING.
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> AND CLEARLY THAT'S NOT TRUE.
AND SO TO ME THE MOST
INTERESTING THING ABOUT THIS
CONTROVERSY ACTUALLY IS ALL THE
DIFFERENT WAYS THAT PEOPLE CAN
INTERPRET THE ART.
AND ONE OF MY BIGGEST CONCERNS
IS THAT I THINK THERE IS MORE
PUBLICITY THAN THERE USED TO BE
AND MORE UNDERSTANDING IN THE
GENERAL PUBLIC THAT WE HAVE VERY
DISPROPORTIONATE INCARCERATION
OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS AND
PARTICULARLY MEN.
BUT WHAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T
UNDERSTAND IS WHAT ARE THE
CAUSATIVE FACTORS OF THAT.
AND SO YOUR AVERAGE WHITE PERSON
WHO DOESN'T HAVE ANY CONNECTION
TO THE TOPIC AND MAYBE DOESN'T
KNOW PEOPLE OF COLOR AT LEAST
VERY WELL, CAN BEGIN TO THINK --
ALTHOUGH THEY WON'T SAY IT OUT
LOUD BECAUSE IT'S NOT POLITE --
THAT SOMETHING'S WRONG WITH
BLACK PEOPLE AND THAT'S WHY
THEY'RE IN JAIL.
THAT THEY'RE MORE CRIMINAL,
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.
AND WHAT YOU HOPE IS THAT AN ART
PIECE LIKE THIS COMES WITH SOME
CONTEXT OR SOME EXPLANATION OR
SOME CONVERSATION TO UNDERSTAND
ALL THE EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT
ARE MAKING THIS HAPPEN.
>> WILLIE, TO THAT QUESTION
ABOUT WHO'S ALLOWED TO SPEAK TO
THESE ISSUES.
>> I THINK THAT ANYONE WHO IS
CONSCIOUS ENOUGH TO REALIZE THAT
THERE'S A NEED TO HAVE THIS
CONVERSATION, TO TRY TO
UNDERSTAND CULTURALLY WHAT
PEOPLE GO THROUGH.
BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENS WITH MOST
PEOPLE IS THEIR ENVIRONMENT
CREATES THAT INDIVIDUAL.
AND A MAN'S CHARACTER IS THE
REAL MAN.
AND IF YOU GROW UP IN AN
ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU'RE STOPPED
30 TIMES A MONTH JUST BECAUSE OF
THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN, THEN
YOU'RE GOING TO START TO FEEL
SOME KIND OF WEIGHT.
YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TRUST.
YOU'RE GOING TO BE MAD AND
ANGRY.
AND SO WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE WORK,
WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE EDUCATION
AND YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE IT THE
BEST WAY THAT YOU CAN, YOU MAKE
MISTAKES LIKE I DID WHEN I WAS A
YOUNG MAN.
I WAS MAKING IT THE BEST WAY I
KNEW HOW.
>> I HAVE A QUESTION.
IF A PERSON CANNOT RELATE TO
ANOTHER'S EXPERIENCE AS A PERSON
OF COLOR OR A PERSON OF COLOR
CANNOT RELATE TO A WHITE PERSON,
HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO COME
TOGETHER AND GAIN THIS
UNDERSTANDING?
I MEAN, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT
YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A BLACK MAN.
THAT'S PROBABLY VERY DISPARATE
FROM MANY WHITE PEOPLE'S
EXPERIENCE, RIGHT?
SO HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO LEARN
ABOUT THAT EX EXPERIENCE AND GO
FORWARD AND TRY TO COME TOGETHER
TO HAVE THESE KINDS OF
CONVERSATIONS?
>> I THINK A MORE IMPORTANT
QUESTION IS WHY, WHY SHOULD WE
ENGAGE IN THIS WORK WHEN OUR EX
PRNSESEXPERIENCES ARE VERY DIFFERENT.
>> YEAH.
>> SO THE NATION IS BROWNING,
RIGHT?
THE CENSUS BUREAU IS PREDICTING
THAT WITHIN THE NEXT 30 YEARS
WE'LL HAVE MORE PEOPLE WHO
IDENTIFY AS A PERSON OF COLOR
THAN PEOPLE WHO IDENTIFY AS
WHITE.
WHICH MEANS THE PLACES WE PLAY,
WORK, INFLUENCE ARE GOING TO
LOOK DIFFERENT.
SO IT'S REALLY CRITICAL THAT
PEOPLE DO THIS WORK, HAVE THIS
UNDERSTANDING SO THEY CAN BE
SUCCESSFUL IN A 21ST CENTURY
WORLD.
SO I THINK WHY IS MORE IMPORTANT
THAN HOW OR EQUALLY AS IMPORTANT
AS HOW.
>> OKAY.
SO WHY?
WHY DO YOU THINK, RACHEL, WE
SHOULD DO THIS?
>> I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF
DIFFERENT REASONS.
FIRST OF ALL, IT'S JUST THE
RIGHT THING TO DO AND FOR SOME
PEOPLE THAT'S COMPELLING ENOUGH.
THE SECOND REASON IS WHETHER
YOU'RE A BUSINESS PERSON OR YOU
HAVE KIDS IN SCHOOL OR YOU'RE A
PARENT, THE CHANGE IN WORLD IS
GOING TO IMPACT YOU AND YOUR
CHILDREN AND YOUR WORKPLACE.
SO THAT'S MOTIVATION.
THERE WAS A GREAT CASE THAT
KELLOGG CAME OUT WITH A COUPLE
YEARS AGO.
>> YEAH.
>> AND I ALWAYS LIKE TO SAY
THIS.
IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT YOU HAVE TO
GO FIND SOMEBODY DIFFERENT FROM
YOU AND MAKE THEM THEIR FRIEND
IN SOME TOKEN WAY.
THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS TO DO
THIS.
IF YOU'RE SERIOUS ABOUT
LEARNING, THEN YOU START READING
AND YOU START WATCHING FILMS AND
YOU START ASKING QUESTIONS AND
YOU START PARTICIPATING IN
WORKSHOPS AND EDUCATION.
PEOPLE CAN QUICKLY FIGURE OUT
HOW TO DO SO.
>> WILLIE, WHY DO YOU THINK WE
NEED TO WORK ON THIS?
>> I THINK WE NEED TO WORK ON IT
FOR A LOT OF DIFFERENT REASONS.
I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE
IS THAT IF WE DON'T CHANGE THE
WAY THAT WE VIEW ONE ANOTHER AND
SEE THE WORLD, EVERYBODY ELSE IN
THE WORLD IS ADVANCING AND
AMERICA IS SLIPPING.
WE'RE GOING TO BE LEFT BEHIND.
BECAUSE THE WORLD STAGE IS
CHANGING, LIKE SHE SAID.
PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE GOING TO BE
THE MAJOR COMPONENT IN THE
WORLD.
WE'RE NOT THE MINORITY ANYMORE.
WE'RE BECOMING THE MAJORITY.
>> WELL, NOT ONLY THAT.
I THINK WE WANT OUR KIDS TO HAVE
OODADVANCED SKILLS AROUND
EVERYTHING.
BUT WE WANT THEM TO HAVE VERY
DATED IDEAS AND ATTITUDES AROUND
RACE.
IT DOESN'T WORK IN THE 21ST
CENTURY MODEL.
IT JUST DOESN'T.
IT DOESN'T WORK IN A COMMUNITY,
IN A WORLD, IN A SPACE WHERE
THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR
THAN THERE ARE WHITE PEOPLE.
SO I THINK WE NEED TO PUT WHITE
PEOPLE ON THE HOOK.
THIS WHOLE IDEA OF I GREW UP IN
WISCONSIN SO I DON'T KNOW PEOPLE
WHO ARE OF DIFFERENT CULTURES
WON'T WORK.
IT DOESN'T APPLY.
>> IT'S NOT AN EXCUSE.
>> IT'S A STARTING PLACE, BUT
YOU DON'T STOP THERE.
>> ALL RIGHT.
>> SO THE STARTING POINT IS
THERE.
SO NOW HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD?
THE QUESTION FOR ME WOULD BE HOW
DO WE MOVE FORWARD AND ADVANCE
THIS CONVERSATION?
BECAUSE NOW THAT WE BEGAN -- AND
I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY THOUSANDS
OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WATCH
THIS OR HOW MANY THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE WATCH THIS SHOW, BUT HOW
DO WE ADVANCE AND MOVE FORWARD
FROM THIS POINT, FROM CREATING
THIS DIALOGUE.
WHAT DO WE DO?
>> WELL, THAT IS A GOOD
QUESTION, BUT WE HAVE TO LEAVE
THIS DIALOGUE HERE FOR THIS
MOMENT.
AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO PURSUE
THAT QUESTION AND MOVE THIS
FORWARD, BECAUSE THAT IS PART OF
WHAT WE DO.
AND WE REALLY VERY MUCH
APPRECIATE ALL OF YOU BEING HERE
TODAY.
WILLIE WEAVER-BEY, RACHEL
KRINSKY AND TRACEY ROBERTSON,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE WORK
YOU DO AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR
ARTISTIC EXPRESSION AS WELL.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR
TONIGHT.
NEXT WEEK "HERE AND NOW" IN THE
NEW YEAR.
LOOK FOR A NEW FORMAT WITH A NEW
MISSION OF BRINGING YOU NEWS AND
POLITICS.
NEXT FRIDAY, A POLITICAL LOOK
AHEAD TO 2017, INCLUDING AN
INTERVIEW WITH U.S. SENATOR
TAMMY BALDWIN.
UNTIL THEN, I'M FREDERICA
FREYBERG.
HAVE A SAFE AND HAPPY NEW YEAR.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF
WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.