- FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF
WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.
- DANE COUNTY CLERKS PORE OVER 2016 PRESIDENTIAL BALLOTS AS OUR
STATE'S HISTORIC RECOUNT GETS UNDERWAY.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," WE HEAR FROM THE STEIN CAMPAIGN ON
WHY THEY'VE CALLED FOR AND FUNDED THE RECOUNT.
ELECTIONS COMMISSION CHAIR MARK THOMSEN IS HERE TO TELL US HOW
THE PROCESS IS GOING SO FAR.
LATER OUR CURRENT DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP EXPLAINS WHY A
DEPARTMENT REALIGNMENT IN THE PERMIT PROCESS IS A GOOD IDEA.
THEN A PAST DNR SECRETARY WILL WEIGH IN WITH HIS CONCERNS.
BUT FIRST, GREEN PARTY CANDIDATE JILL STEIN IS GETTING WHAT SHE
WANTED AND HAS SO FAR PAID $3.5 MILLION FOR IT IN THIS STATE.
A RETABULATION OF WISCONSIN'S NEARLY THREE MILLION BALLOTS
CAST IN THE NOVEMBER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.
BALLOTS THAT PENDING THE RECOUNT PUT DONALD TRUMP UP 22,000 VOTES
OVER HILLARY CLINTON.
THE STEIN CAMPAIGN TRIED UNSUCCESSFULLY THIS WEEK TO
MANDATE A STATEWIDE HAND COUNT OF BALLOTS.
STILL, MANY COUNTIES HAVE CHOSEN ON THEIR OWN TO HAND COUNT.
HERE'S HOW IT ALL BREAKS OUT.
47 COUNTIES PLAN TO RECOUNT BY HAND.
13 COUNTIES PLAN A COMBINATION OF OPTICAL SCANNERS AND HAND COUNT.
12 COUNTIES PLAN TO USE OPTICAL SCANNERS.
THE DEADLINE FOR COUNTY BOARDS OF CANVASSERS TO COMPLETE THEIR
RECOUNT WORK IS 8:00 P.M., MONDAY, DECEMBER 12.
THE COMMISSION PLANS TO CERTIFY RESULTS ON TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13.
MARK THOMSEN IS CHAIR OF THE WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION.
HE JOINS US AT THE END OF A HECTIC WEEK FROM MILWAUKEE.
MR. THOMSEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
- GREETINGS. THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
-SO HOW IS THIS RECOUNT PROGRESS GOING NOW ONE DAY INTO IT?
- FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW,
I THINK IT'S GOING REMARKABLY WELL.
YOU KNOW, WE GOT THE PETITION MIDDLE OF THANKSGIVING WEEKEND.
LATE FRIDAY AFTERNOON WE CONTACTED FELLOW COMMISSIONERS
TO SCHEDULE A MEETING FIRST THING MONDAY MORNING, KNOWING
THAT WE HAD TO BE DONE BY DECEMBER 13.
YOU KNOW, WE HAD AN UNANIMOUS AGREEMENT AMONGST THE THREE
DEMOCRATS, THREE REPUBLICANS THAT THIS STATE WOULD GET IT
DONE, GET IT DONE TIMELY FASHION AND WE FULLY ANTICIPATE THAT WE
WILL CONFIRM THE PRESIDENT-ELECT AS THE NEXT PRESIDENT.
- MEANWHILE, HOWEVER, A LAWSUIT HAS BEEN FILED IN FEDERAL COURT
IN MADISON SEEKING TO STOP THIS RECOUNT.
WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT YOUR RESPONSE AND REACTION TO THAT?
- I THINK PERSONALLY I WAS SURPRISED THAT A PAC ASSOCIATED
WITH THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WOULD TRY TO STOP THE RECOUNT.
IT WAS OUR INTENTION TO FOLLOW STATE STATUTES AND GET THIS DONE
IN A TIMELY FASHION.
WE HAVE 72 COUNTY CANVASSING BOARDS WORKING AROUND THE CLOCK,
OR VIRTUALLY AROUND THE CLOCK, WORKING VERY, VERY HARD.
AS OF LAST NIGHT, WE HAD TWO COUNTIES COMPLETE, MENOMINEE
COUNTY, IRON COUNTY.
IT CONFIRMED THAT THERE HAD BEEN A NET CHANGE OF VOTES BETWEEN
THE CLINTON AND TRUMP CAMPAIGN OF ONE VOTE.
YOU KNOW, LAST TIME THERE WAS A STATEWIDE COUNT THERE WERE ABOUT
300 VOTES THAT CHANGED OUT OF 1.5 MILLION.
FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, I WANTED THIS COUNT, THIS RECOUNT TO BE
COMPLETED TO CONFIRM THAT WE'RE NOT COUNTING ILLEGAL BALLOTS IN
THE STATE OF WISCONSIN AND THAT HARD-WORKING WISCONSINITES ARE
GETTING IT DONE.
WITH RESPECT TO THIS ATTEMPT TO STOP THE RECOUNT, I THINK IT'S
VERY, VERY IRONIC.
WE ARE IN THE PROCESS OF TRYING TO CONFIRM THAT THE
PRESIDENT-ELECT WON THIS RACE AND THAT THERE IS NOT ANY
ILLEGAL CONDUCT GOING ON STATEWIDE.
AND WHY NOW THE WINNER OR FRIENDS OF WINNER WOULD WANT TO
STOP IT IS BEYOND ME.
THE ONLY REASON I CAN GUESS IS THAT THEY DON'T WANT THE TRUTH
TO COME OUT THAT WE'RE NOT COUNTING ILLEGAL VOTES, YOU
KNOW?
I MEAN, THIS IS AN ACCURATE PLACE.
WHY ELSE WOULD THEY WANT TO STOP THE COUNT RIGHT NOW, YOU KNOW,
IF WE'RE TRYING TO CONFIRM THAT THE PRESIDENT-ELECT WON.
- YOU KNOW, IN FACT EARLIER THIS WEEK PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP
COMMENTED THAT THERE WERE MILLIONS OF ILLEGAL VOTES CAST
ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN THE ELECTION, GIVING HILLARY CLINTON
THE POPULAR VOTE.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
YOU KNOW, ALSO IN KEEPING WITH THIS LAWSUIT SEEKING TO STOP
DOWN YOUR RECOUNT?
- FROM THE VANTAGE POINT AS CHAIR OF THE COMMISSION, BASED
ON THE HISTORICAL PRACTICE OF HARD-WORKING PEOPLE STATEWIDE
THAT HANDLE THESE ELECTIONS, YOU KNOW, IT WAS MY OPINION THAT IT
WAS A FALSE CHARGE AGAINST THE PEOPLE THAT RUN OUR ELECTIONS.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A VERY SAFE SYSTEM.
IT HAS BEEN DOUBLE-CHECKED.
IT'S HISTORICALLY BEEN AUDITED.
THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY ALLEGATIONS OF SPECIFIC HACKS
AROUND THE STATE.
AND I BELIEVE AND PERSONALLY WANTED THIS RECOUNT COMPLETED SO
THAT THE WORLD KNOWS THAT WE ARE COUNTING REAL VOTES, NOT ILLEGAL
VOTES.
- NOW, WHAT ABOUT THE CONCERNS ON THE PART OF THE JILL STEIN
CAMPAIGN THAT NOT COUNTING BY HAND ACROSS THE BOARD RISKS
SCANNING PAPER BALLOTS THROUGH THE SAME COMPUTERIZED VOTING
MACHINES THAT WERE USED FOR THE INITIAL COUNT, WHICH ACCORDING
TO THAT UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN COMPUTER SCIENCE PROFESSOR MIGHT
BE HACKED?
- THAT ISSUE WAS RESOLVED BY THE JUDGE IN DANE COUNTY.
JILL STEIN HAD THE RIGHT TO APPEAL FROM THAT DECISION.
SHE DIDN'T.
THE LAW IS VERY CLEAR THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A COURT ORDER
BEFORE YOU GET A RECOUNT.
AND IT IS PROCEEDING ALONG THOSE LINES.
I THINK I CAN SAY THIS.
SIGNIFICANTLY, IN THE COUNT AT MENOMINEE COUNTY, IT CONFIRMED
THAT THERE HAD BEEN AN ERROR AND 17 JILL STEIN VOTES HADN'T
ACTUALLY BEEN COUNTED.
SO HAVING THIS RECOUNT ACTUALLY HAVE -- IT CONFIRMS THESE 17
VOTERS, THAT THEIR VOTE WILL COUNT.
SO IT MAY BE A VERY EXPENSIVE UNDERTAKING FOR THOSE 17 VOTES,
BUT I'M SURE THOSE 17 PEOPLE VERY MUCH APPRECIATE THAT THEIR
VOTES ARE GOING TO BE COUNTED.
- TO THAT LARGER ISSUE, COULD WISCONSIN'S VOTING MACHINES
HAVE CYBERSECURITY RISKS?
- THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT WE'VE HAD THAT PROBLEM.
YOU KNOW, HOMELAND SECURITY WAS HERE BEFORE THE ELECTION.
MICHAEL HAAS AND HIS STAFF HAVE, YOU KNOW, DONE ALL THE
DOUBLE-CHECKS.
OF COURSE, THERE'S ALWAYS SOME OUTSIDE POSSIBILITY.
BUT WE ARE VERY, VERY FORTUNATE IN THIS STATE TO HAVE A VERY,
VERY COMPETENT STAFF, AND WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE KEEP
THEM FULLY FUNDED.
THAT'S THE NEXT BIG STEP HERE.
ONCE WE GET THIS RECOUNT DONE, IS TO GET OUR STAFF FUNDED BY,
YOU KNOW, THE LEGISLATURE.
A LOT OF OUR STAFF RIGHT NOW IS FUNDED ON FEDERAL DOLLARS, AND
IT'S GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THIS
RECOUNT MOVE TO GET THE BUDGET PASSED SO WE HAVE THE STAFF.
IF WE LEARN ANYTHING FROM THIS RECOUNT IS THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE
A VERY COMPETENT, FULLY-FUNDED STAFF TO HANDLE THESE KINDS OF
MATTERS.
I MEAN, WE HAVE ASKED OUR STAFF AND THE STATEWIDE COUNTIES TO DO
A MAJOR, MAJOR UNDERTAKING.
AND AS YOU AND I TALK, THEY'RE WORKING VERY, VERY HARD.
AND I HOPE THAT MY FELLOW CITIZENS REALLY, REALLY
APPRECIATE THEIR EFFORTS.
- I'M SURE THEY DO.
MARK THOMSEN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
- THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
- AS WE MENTIONED EARLIER, THE DEADLINE FOR THE 72 COUNTY
RECOUNT IS MONDAY, DECEMBER 12 AT 8:00 P.M.
THE ELECTIONS COMMISSION PLANS TO CERTIFY THOSE RESULTS IN
SHORT ORDER.
THE NEXT DAY IN FACT, TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13.
THE RECOUNT WAS CALLED FOR AND IS BEING PAID FOR BY THE JILL
STEIN CAMPAIGN.
MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF IS LEAD COUNSEL FOR THE JILL STEIN
CAMPAIGN RECOUNT EFFORT.
HE JOINS US BY PHONE FROM NEW YORK CITY AND THANKS VERY MUCH
FOR BEING HERE. - MY PLEASURE.
- FIRST, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THE LAWSUIT FILED ON THE PART
OF PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP SUPPORTERS TO STOP THIS RECOUNT?
- I DON'T THINK IT REALLY HAS ANY MERIT AND IT WON'T BE
SUCCESSFUL AND I CAN'T SAY I'M COMPLETELY SURPRISED ALTHOUGH I
AM DISAPPOINTED.
I WOULD LIKE TO THINK ALL PEOPLE, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT
PARTY THEY MIGHT SUPPORT OR WHAT CANDIDATE THEY MIGHT SUPPORT,
WOULD SUPPORT A PROCESS WHERE WE CAN VERIFY AND ENSURE THE
INTEGRITY OF THE VOTE AND MAKE SURE THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY
KIND OF OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE OR MANIPULATION.
- SO WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR LEGAL RESPONSE TO THIS?
- WELL, WE ARE PREPARING PAPERS AND WILL BE INTERVENING
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT A PARTY TO THE LAWSUIT.
BASICALLY, IT'S A COUPLE OF PACS OR SUPER PACS, PERHAPS, I'M NOT
EVEN SURE, WHO HAVE FILED THE CASE TO SEEK AN INJUNCTION TO
STOP THE RECOUNTING OF THE VOTE, WHICH IS RATHER ANTIDEMOCRATIC,
I MIGHT ADD.
BUT, IN ANY EVENT, WE WILL INTERVENE AND CERTAINLY DEFEND
ALONGSIDE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE, WHO WILL BE DEFENDING
THE WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION, WHO'S JUST FOLLOWING
THE STATUTES THAT ARE LAID OUT IN WISCONSIN LAW AS PASSED BY
THE LEGISLATURE.
- FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HOW IS THE RECOUNT GOING IN WISCONSIN?
- I MEAN, CERTAINLY THE REPORTS THAT I'VE BEEN GETTING ARE --
YOU KNOW, I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING PARTICULARLY NOTABLE OR
UNUSUAL.
NO RECOUNT GOES PERFECTLY SMOOTHLY, SO I CERTAINLY AM
AWARE OF VARIOUS SMALLER KINDS OF ITEMS THAT HAVE COME UP.
BUT I'VE BEEN VERY IMPRESSED AS SOMEBODY WHO DOES NOT LIVE IN
WISCONSIN WITH JUST THE HARD WORK AND THE PROFESSIONALISM OF
EVERYBODY WITHIN THE ELECTION COMMISSION AND THE WORK THAT
THEY'RE DOING.
- WELL, THANK YOU ON THEIR BEHALF.
EVERYONE, IT SEEMS, EXPERTS, CANDIDATES, ELECTION OFFICIALS
SAY THAT THIS RECOUNT IS NOT LIKELY AT ALL TO CHANGE THE
OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION.
WHY THEN DID JILL STEIN EMBARK ON IT?
- WELL, IF THERE HAS BEEN NO OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE, I THINK
THE LIKELIHOOD OF THERE BEING A 11,000 VOTE SHIFT, WHICH IS WHAT
WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN FOR THERE TO BE A CHANGE IN THE OUTCOME,
IS PROBABLY STATISTICALLY UNLIKELY.
BUT THE BASIS FOR THIS CAMPAIGN EFFORT BY THE STEIN CAMPAIGN IN
MULTIPLE JURISDICTIONS IS REALLY -- STARTS FROM THE UNPRECEDENTED
ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT LEADING UP TO THE
ELECTION OF SUCCESSFUL BREACHES BY FOREIGN IP ADDRESSES HACKING
INTO THE DNC, HACKING INTO THE CAMPAIGN CHAIR PODESTA'S EMAIL,
HACKING INTO THE ILLINOIS ELECTIONS OFFICIAL WEBSITE AND
TAKING VOTER DATA, DOING THE SAME THING IN ARIZONA.
THERE HAS BEEN A CONCERTED EFFORT BY SOPHISTICATED CYBER
ATTACKERS ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE THE OUTCOME OF OUR
ELECTION.
AND THE ONLY WAY TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THAT HAS HAPPENED
IN ANY WAY THAT IS RELIABLE IS TO COUNT THE HAND RECORD.
THAT IS THE FAILSAFE THAT WISCONSIN FORTUNATELY FOR THE
MOST PART HAS, SOME OTHER STATES LIKE MICHIGAN HAVE.
UNFORTUNATELY, SOME OTHER STATES DON'T.
- DO YOU HAVE SPECIFIC EVIDENCE THAT VOTER RESULTS WERE HACKED
OR ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES COMPROMISED IN WISCONSIN?
- I GUESS THERE'S TWO ANSWERS TO THAT.
ONE IS IT'S A BIT OF A CATCH-22, RIGHT?
THE ONLY WAY TO GET THAT EVIDENCE IS TO EXAMINE THE
RECORD TO SEE IF THERE'S SOME KIND OF DIVERGENCE.
BUT THE OTHER ANSWER -- AND IT'S AN IMPORTANT ONE -- IS THAT
THERE WAS A STUDY DONE BY A STATISTICIAN AT THE UNIVERSITY
OF MICHIGAN THAT WAS PUBLISHED JUST A FEW DAYS AGO WHERE HE DID
A VERY SOPHISTICATED ANALYSIS THAT IS ACTUALLY BASED ON THE
FINAL DIGIT IN THE NUMBERS AT THE WARD LEVEL IN WISCONSIN ON
ALL OF THE COUNTS AND ASSUMES THAT BASED ON PROBABILITY THE
MEAN OF THAT NUMBER SHOULD ALWAYS BE 4.5.
I HOPE THIS ISN'T TOO TECHNICAL.
BUT IN THE END, THE END RESULT WAS HE IDENTIFIED ANOMALIES THAT
ARE INDICATIVE OF THERE BEING MANIPULATION OF THE VOTE IN
WISCONSIN IN THE SMALLER WARDS.
AND SO THERE IS, YES, ABSOLUTELY HARD, ACTUAL EVIDENCE OF A
STATISTICAL SORT BASED ON THIS ANALYSIS.
- GIVEN THAT NOT ALL OF THE RECOUNTING WILL BE DONE BY HAND
IN WISCONSIN, CAN THE STEIN CAMPAIGN EVER BE SATISFIED OF
THE VERACITY OF THE OUTCOME?
- I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY THAT WAS OUR PREFERENCE.
AS YOU KNOW, WE WENT TO COURT TO TRY TO CONVINCE A JUDGE TO ORDER
THAT IT ALL BE DONE BY HAND.
APPROXIMATELY 49 COUNTIES ARE DOING THE RECOUNT ENTIRELY BY
HAND.
ANOTHER TEN OR SO ARE MACHINE.
AND THEN THE REST ARE A MIX.
SO AN AWFUL LOT OF THE VOTE, WELL PAST A MAJORITY OF THE
VOTE, WILL BE RECOUNTED BY HAND.
AND ALTHOUGH OUR PREFERENCE WOULD BE FOR A FULL RECOUNT, AS
I SAID, IT WILL CREATE -- IF THERE WAS HACKING OF THE SORT
THAT WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT OR INTERFERENCE OF ANY SORT, WE'RE
VERY HOPEFUL THAT IT WOULD BE REVEALED BASED ON THE RECOUNT
THAT WE HAVE SOUGHT AND THAT IS BEING DONE.
- WITH JUST ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT, DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF CALLS
THIS A, QUOTE, SCAM BY THE GREEN PARTY FOR AN ELECTION THAT HAS
ALREADY BEEN CONCEDED AND SAYS THAT THE RECOUNT WAS A WAY FOR
STEIN TO FILL HER COFFERS WITH MONEY.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
- WELL, ALL THE MONEY THAT'S BEEN RAISED THUS FAR, $3.5
MILLION HAS ALREADY BEEN PAID TO THE STATE OF WISCONSIN TO PAY
FOR THE RECOUNT WHICH THE CAMPAIGN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR.
THIS IS JUST ONE OF A WHOLE SERIES OF COUNTLESS,
IRRESPONSIBLE COMMENTS AND TWEETS BY PRESIDENT-ELECT TRUMP.
YOU KNOW, HE'S ALSO SAID THAT THERE'S WIDESPREAD VOTER FRAUD.
SO IF THERE'S WIDESPREAD VOTER FRAUD, THEN EVERYBODY, INCLUDING
HIM, SHOULD BE SUPPORTING VERIFICATION.
SO I DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY.
I DON'T TAKE ALMOST ANYTHING HE SAYS VERY SERIOUSLY,
TO BE HONEST.
- WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US, MATTHEW BRINCKERHOFF.
- THANK YOU.
- A FEDERAL JUDGE IN MADISON THIS AFTERNOON REJECTED A
TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER TO HALT THE WISCONSIN PRESIDENTIAL
RECOUNT, BUT DID SET A HEARING DATE OF NEXT FRIDAY TO CONSIDER
THE LAWSUIT ITSELF.
IN THE 32nd STATE SENATE RACE, THE RECOUNT HAS BEEN COMPLETED.
DEMOCRATIC SENATOR AND MINORITY LEADER JENNIFER SHILLING
ANNOUNCED TODAY SHE RETAINS HER SEAT OVER REPUBLICAN DAN
KAPANKE.
THE WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION, HOWEVER, HAS YET TO
OFFICIALLY REPORT THE FINAL TALLY.
MORE WORK AND FEWER PEOPLE TO DO IT.
THAT'S WHAT THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES FACES DOWN
EVERY DAY.
SO AFTER A YEAR OF TAKING A LOOK AT HOW TO PRIORITIZE RESOURCES,
THE DNR THIS WEEK CAME OUT WITH A REORGANIZATION PLAN FOR THE
AGENCY.
DNR SECRETARY CATHY STEPP JOINS US
FROM UW-PARKSIDE TO EXPLAIN IT.
SECRETARY, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
- OH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
- WELL, SO PEOPLE ARE LIKELY CONCERNED THAT THIS
REORGANIZATION, AS YOU CALL IT, STRATEGIC ALIGNMENT, WILL WEAKEN
ENVIRONMENTAL OR CONSERVATION STANDARDS, BUT YOU ASSURE IT
WILL NOT.
DESCRIBE WHY IT WON'T.
- WELL REALLY WHAT THIS IS JUST ABOUT IS ABOUT A PRIORITIZATION
OF OUR RESOURCES, BOTH HUMAN RESOURCES AND FISCAL RESOURCES.
IT'S NOT A SECRET THAT WE'VE SEEN DWINDLING SUPPLY OF BOTH.
OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, WE'VE SEEN JUST ABOUT A 20% DECREASE
ESPECIALLY IN THE HUMAN RESOURCES SIDE.
SO WE REALLY HAVE TO FIND A WAY, JUST LIKE THE PRIVATE SECTOR
DOES, TO DO THINGS BETTER, MORE EFFICIENTLY AND TAKE
OPPORTUNITIES WHERE WE CAN TO LEAN MORE ON EXPERTISE IN THE
PRIVATE SECTOR WHILE STILL RETAINING OUR IMPORTANT
REGULATORY FUNCTIONS.
I DO WANT TO ASSURE EVERYBODY THERE'S NOTHING IN THIS PLAN
THAT ROLLS BACK OR WEAKENS OR LOOSENS ENVIRONMENTAL
REGULATIONS OR STANDARDS.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THAT.
IT'S ABOUT HOW WE DO THE BUSINESS WE DO, NOT THE ACTUAL
WHAT IT IS THAT'S GETTING DONE ON THE GROUND.
- HOW DO THESE CHANGES ADDRESS CONCERNS RAISED IN A RECENT
AUDIT CRITICAL OF THE DNR FOR ITS BACKLOG IN WASTEWATER
PROGRAM AND FOR THINGS INCLUDING LARGE FARMS AS WELL AS A SMALL
NUMBER OF VIOLATION NOTICES GIVEN?
- THIS WAS REALLY ONE OF THE FRONT BURNER CONCERNS THAT WE
HAD, WAS THAT THAT PARTICULAR PROGRAM WAS UNDER-FUNDED,
UNDERSTAFFED.
THIS ALIGNMENT EFFORT THAT WE'VE JUT GONE THROUGH HAS ALLOWED US
TO REALLOCATE SOME OF THE RESOURCES WE HAD IN OTHER AREAS
SO WE COULD PUT THEM TO MORE HIGH-PRIORITY URGENT NEEDS THAT
WE HAD ON THE GROUND.
SO WE CAN GET ACTUAL FEET IN THE BOOTS ON THE GROUND.
SO THAT'S HELPED US DO THAT.
BY AGAIN JUST LIKE YOU LOOK AT WHAT'S THE POT OF MONEY THAT
YOU'VE GOT AVAILABLE TO YOU, WHAT LIMITATIONS ARE THERE TO
THOSE POTS OF MONEY BECAUSE WE HAVE LOTS OF STRINGS ATTACHED TO
THOSE.
AND LUCKILY THROUGH THIS EFFORT, THROUGH EVERY LEVEL OF STAFF
THAT WAS INVOLVED AS WELL AS EXTERNAL INPUT THAT WE TOOK FROM
PEOPLE WHO WE SERVE, WHICH IS EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD WHO
LIVES HERE, WORKS HERE, PLAYS HERE OR MAKES ANYTHING HERE IS
OUR CUSTOMER.
SO WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE TO ANSWER TO.
BUT THIS IS ACTUALLY GOING TO GIVE US MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO
GET OUT FROM UNDER FLUORESCENT LIGHTS, OUT OF THE CUBICLES,
ONTO THE FIELD AND MAKING SURE THAT OUR FOLKS ARE DOING THE
WORK TO MAKE SURE THERE'S COMPLIANCE WITH WHAT THE PERMITS
ARE WRITTEN TO SAY.
THAT'S THE BEST SERVICE WE CAN PROVIDE TO THE PUBLIC IS MAKE
SURE WE'RE OUT THERE, THINGS ARE GETTING DONE RIGHT ON THE GROUND
AND THIS PLAN IS GOING TO GET US THERE.
- STILL, ALL OF THAT SAID, DO YOU WISH YOU HAD A BIGGER POT OF
MONEY TO WORK WITH?
- I DON'T KNOW ANY AGENT SECRETARY THAT WOULDN'T WISH FOR
MORE MONEY.
BUT WE JUST DON'T HAVE THAT LUXURY.
AND FRANKLY THE PRIVATE SECTOR GOES THROUGH THIS ALL THE TIME.
ALL HEALTHY, DYNAMIC ORGANIZATIONS GO THROUGH REGULAR
REVIEWING OF WHAT IT IS THAT THEY'VE GOT AVAILABLE TO THEM.
WHAT ARE THE EXPECTATIONS OF THEIR CUSTOMERS?
WHAT ARE THEIR PRICE POINTS AND THEN THEY ADJUST THEIR
OPERATIONS ACCORDINGLY.
WE HAVE A REAL RESPONSIBILITY TO DO THAT FOR TAXPAYERS IN
WISCONSIN, TO MAKE SURE THE INVESTMENT THAT TAXPAYERS,
LICENSE PAYERS, PERMIT APPLICANTS ARE PAYING ARE
RETURNING THE BEST POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW, BENEFIT TO ALL OF THOSE
USERS.
AND THAT MEANS THAT INSTEAD OF SHUFFLING PAPERS AND CHECKING
BOXES, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THE RIGHT THINGS ARE BEING DONE OUT
ON THE GROUND.
AND THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT IT'S ABOUT PRIORITIZING THAT,
BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS WITH PRODUCERS OF ALL KINDS, ACROSS
ALL INDUSTRIES AND MAKING SURE WE'RE GETTING THE JOB DONE.
- PART OF YOUR REORGANIZATION CALLS FOR A NEW WAY OF
PERMITTING LARGE ANIMAL FARMS THAT GENERATE WATER-POLLUTING
MANURE.
YOU CALL FOR ALLOWING PRIVATE CONSULTANTS TO WRITE PERMIT
APPLICATIONS FOR FARMERS.
WHAT ROLE DOES THE DNR THEN PLAY IN PERMITTING THESE LARGE ANIMAL
OPERATIONS AND IN APPROVING THEIR SO-CALLED NUTRIENT
MANAGEMENT PLANS?
- SO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DOING IS SIMILAR TO WHAT WE'VE
BEEN DOING IN WISCONSIN FOR OVER TEN YEARS NOW.
WE'VE GOT A PROGRAM CALLED THE WETLAND DELINEATOR ASSURANCE
PROGRAM.
TO WHERE WE'VE GOT CREDENTIALED PROFESSIONALS IN THE PRIVATE
SECTOR WHO HAVE LOTS OF TECHNICAL TRAINING FOR THIS TYPE
OF WORK WHO ACTUALLY GO OUT AND MAP OUT WETLANDS FOR EXAMPLE.
THEY HAVE TO GO THROUGH A RIGOROUS PROCESS OF APPROVAL AT
WISCONSIN DNR BEFORE THEY CAN GET ON THAT LIST.
WHEN WE GET THOSE APPLICATIONS IN, IT DOESN'T TAKE AS MUCH TIME
TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THE THOUSANDS OF PAGES, WHEN WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT PLANS, FOR EXAMPLE,
TO BE ABLE TO BE ASSURED THAT THE WORK THEY'RE DOING WE CAN
RELY UPON WHEN WE WRITE THE PERMITS.
SO THIS ISN'T ABOUT PRODUCERS WRITING THEIR OWN PERMITS.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THEM WRITING THEIR OWN REGULATIONS OR
STANDARDS.
THIS IS ABOUT SOME OF THE MORE HEAVY-DUTY, TECHNICAL PAPERWORK
SIDE OF THINGS GETTING DONE BY PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE VERY WELL
EDUCATED AND CREDENTIALED TO DO THAT.
WE'VE DONE THAT WITH WETLANDS IN THE PAST IN 10 YEARS.
WE'RE LOOKING TO KIND OF MIRROR THAT PROGRAM.
WE'LL BE DOING SPOT AUDITS AND REGULAR CHECK-INS TO MAKE SURE
THAT THOSE CALCULATIONS ARE BEING DONE CORRECTLY.
BUT THE REGULATORY FUNCTION DOES NOT LEAVE WISCONSIN DNR.
SO AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN APPROVE
OR DENY A PERMIT APPLICATION.
IT'S JUST ONE CHUNK OF THAT APPLICATION CAN BE DONE BETTER
IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, FREEING UP MY STAFF TO GET OUTSIDE, ON
THE GROUND TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE RULES ARE BEING FOLLOWED.
- THERE WAS AN OUTCRY WHEN THE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH STAFFING WAS
CUT BY MORE THAN 30%.
WHAT DOES YOUR STRATEGIC REALIGNMENT DO WITH DNR
SCIENTISTS GOING FORWARD?
- ONE THING I WANT TO REMIND EVERYBODY, OUR AGENCY IS FULL OF
SCIENTISTS.
WE'VE GOT BIOLOGISTS, GEOLOGISTS, HYDRO-GEOLOGISTS ALL
THROUGHOUT THE DEPARTMENT.
THE PORTION THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS OUR RESEARCH DIVISION,
TO WHERE WE'RE ACTUALLY DOING RESEARCH IN DIFFERENT AREAS.
AND THE LEGISLATURE IN THE LAST BUDGET GO-AROUND DECIDED WE HAD
MORE RESEARCHERS THAN WHAT THEY FELT WE NEEDED.
AND SO WHAT WE HAD TO DO AGAIN IS TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT'S THE
ACTUAL WORK THAT'S BEING DONE AND HOW CAN WE BETTER STREAMLINE
THE WORK THAT OUR MANAGERS AND OUR SCIENTISTS OUT ON THE GROUND
NEED TO HAVE DONE, THOSE QUESTIONS THAT THEY NEED
ANSWERED TO DO A BETTER JOB OF MANAGEMENT.
SO THAT'S WHAT WE'VE DONE NOW.
WE'VE ALIGNED SOME OF THOSE RESEARCH PROFESSIONALS INTO
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE DEPARTMENT SO THEY CAN BETTER
WORK IN SYNC WITH THE MANAGERS THAT ARE OUT ON THE GROUND WITH
THEIR PARTNERS.
SO THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR BETTER COMMUNICATION, BETTER
ANSWERS COMING TO US QUICKER ON SOME OF THE CONCERNS THAT WE'RE
FACING.
- ALL RIGHT.
SECRETARY CATHY STEPP, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
- THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
- FORMER DNR SECRETARY AND CURRENT EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF
THE WISCONSIN WILDLIFE FEDERATION, GEORGE MEYER, IS
HERE WITH HIS TAKE ON THIS REORGANIZATION.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
- THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
- SECRETARY STEPP ASSURES THAT THIS PLAN WILL NOT WEAKEN
ENVIRONMENTAL OR CONSERVATION STANDARDS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
- WELL, THE STANDARDS AREN'T REALLY AT STAKE.
THOSE ARE SET IN LAW.
BUT THE STAFFING TO IMPLEMENT THE PROGRAMS AND TO MEET THE
STANDARDS IS REALLY THE CHALLENGE FOR DNR THESE DAYS.
THEY'RE TREMENDOUSLY UNDER-STAFFED, UNDERFUNDED.
THEY'VE LOST BETWEEN 15% AND 20% OF THEIR EMPLOYEES AND JUST DO
NOT HAVE ENOUGH STAFF TO GET THE WORK DONE.
- SO IF YOU WERE CURRENT DNR SECRETARY AND LOOKING AT THAT
ISSUE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
- WELL, AND I HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE SECRETARY AND HER STAFF
ON THIS.
ONE OF THE MAJOR CONCERNS MANY OF US HAVE AND THE PUBLIC HAS IS
WATER QUALITY IN OUR LAKES AND STREAMS, OUR DRINKING WATER.
AND, FOR INSTANCE, THE PROGRAMS, YOU KNOW, FOR MUNICIPALITIES AND
INDUSTRY TO DISCHARGE THEIR PERMITS AND THE CONTAMINATED
RUNOFFS FROM AGRICULTURE AND CITIES INTO THE WATERWAYS, THE
PERMIT FEES HAVEN'T BEEN INCREASED FOR OVER 20 YEARS.
SO THERE'S NO FUNDING TO HIRE THE STAFF TO GET THE JOB DONE.
YOU KNOW, THE REORGANIZATION DOES HAVE SOME GOOD POINTS THAT
I'VE SEEN IN IT SO FAR.
THERE'S MANY THINGS THAT STILL NEED SOME DETAILS.
BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S REARRANGING THE CHAIRS ON THE DECK.
THE PROBLEM IS THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH CHAIRS.
- IT'S NOT LIKELY, WOULD YOU THINK, THAT PERMIT FEES WOULD
INCREASE?
- WELL, I THINK THE LEGISLATURE NEEDS TO REALLY TAKE A LOOK AT
IT.
AND SENATOR ROB COWLES AND OTHERS HAVE HAD THE LEGISLATIVE
AUDIT BUREAU DO AN AUDIT AND SHOWED THE SHORT STAFFING AT
DNR.
IT'S HARD TO GET GENERAL TAX DOLLARS TO IMPLEMENT SOME OF
THESE PROGRAMS.
BUT FEES JUST HAVE TO GO UP AT CERTAIN TIMES TO MEET THE
ADDITIONAL COST OF RUNNING PROGRAMS.
THAT WILL BE A SOLUTION WE HOPE THEY CHOOSE.
- SPECIFIC TO SOME OF THE PLANS IN THIS REALIGNMENT, THE
PERMITTING OF CONCENTRATED ANIMAL FEEDING OPERATIONS, IS IT
A CONCERN THAT PRIVATE CONSULTANTS WILL WRITE UP THESE
PERMITS?
- I THINK THERE'S SOME INFORMATION OUT THERE THAT NEEDS
CLARIFICATION.
I THINK DNR'S STARTING TO DO THAT.
THE UNDERSTANDING IS THE ACTUAL PERMITS WILL STILL BE WRITTEN BY
DNR, BUT A LOT OF BACKGROUND WORK ON THE NUTRIENT PLANS,
WHICH IS HOW MUCH MANURE TO SPREAD WHERE.
THAT'S GOING TO BE DONE BY THE CONSULTANTS, BY CERTIFIED
CONSULTANTS.
AND AS LONG AS THEY'RE CERTIFIED AND UP TO STANDARDS, THAT CAN
PROVIDE GOOD INPUT.
BUT THE PERMITS STILL NEED TO BE WRITTEN BY DNR STAFF.
IT'S OUR UNDERSTANDING THAT HAS BEEN CLARIFIED, THAT WILL BE
DONE.
- AS FOR THE SCIENCE BUREAU AT THE DNR AND SCIENTISTS
REASSIGNED TO A NEW OFFICE WITHIN THE FISH WILDLIFE AND
PARKS DIVISION, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?
- THE PROBLEM IS WHERE THEY'RE BEING PUT RIGHT NOW SEEMS TO BE
A DECENT IDEA.
THE PROBLEM IS THERE ISN'T SUFFICIENT STAFFING TO DO THE
RESEARCH THAT'S BEING NEEDED.
WITH THE TREMENDOUS CHALLENGES FACING THIS STATE COMING UP IN
THE NEXT 20, 30 YEARS, THE IMPACT OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON FISH
& WILDLIFE AND FLOODING AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.
THE SPREAD OF CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE.
WE NEED MORE RESEARCH, NOT LITTLE.
HOPEFULLY AT SOME POINT IN TIME THAT'LL BE REVISED AND THEY'LL
BE MORE RESEARCHERS.
- WHAT WILL BE THE FIRST THING TO WATCH FOR IN THIS NEWLY
ALIGNED DNR?
- I THINK THE WATER QUALITY PROGRAM IS OUR HIGHEST PRIORITY
TO LOOK AT.
WILL THEY IN FACT BE ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH IT?
THE SECOND IS THE MANAGEMENT OF THE WILDLIFE AREAS.
THERE'S SOME REAL MAJOR CHANGES GOING DOWN THERE.
THERE NEEDS TO BE, WE THINK, MORE STAFFING IN SOME OF THOSE
PROGRAMS TO MANAGE THE LANDS.
- ALL RIGHT. GEORGE MEYER, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
- GOOD TO BE HERE.
- THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
NEXT WEEK THE MADISON PUBLIC SCHOOL SUPERINTENDENT JOINS US
TO DESCRIBE HER DISTRICT'S NEW CAREER OPPORTUNITIES PROGRAM.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.
- FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS PROVIDED, IN PART, BY FRIENDS OF
WISCONSIN PUBLIC TELEVISION.