PRESENTATION OF HERE AND NOW IS
MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANIMAL
DENTAL CENTER OF MILWAUKEE AND
OSHKOSH, A VETERINARY
SPECIALISTS WORKING WITH PET
OWNERS AND FAMILY VETERINARIANS
THROUGHOUT WISCONSIN, PROVIDING
CARE FOR ORAL DISEASE AND DENTAL
PROBLEMS FOR SMALL COMPANION
ANIMALS. ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FOR
H&N IS PROVIDED BY THE LE
PHILLIPS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
[ THEME MUSIC ]
>> I CAN'T STAND IN THE STREET
AND NOT THINK OF THE LITTLE
CLOVER RIVER, A NICE PRODUCTIVE
SOUTH STREAM THAT HAS
CONTINUALLY DRIED UP IN RECENT
YEARS AND FISH KILLS ARE NO
LONGER AN UNCOMMON THING.
>> A NEW GROUNDWATER PROPOSAL
THIS WEEK SOUNDS GOOD TO SOME
BUT OTHERS WORRY IT MAY BE AN
ECONOMIC WASH.
TONIGHT, BOTH SIDES OF THAT
DEBATE.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
ALSO ON TONIGHT'S PROGRAM, A
PEEK INSIDE A JOBS FAIR FOR
STATE VETERANS, AND
WISCONSINITES WHO SAY MILK
PASTEURIZATION LAWS ARE A RAW
DEAL.
BUT FIRST, THE STATE HAS SHUT
DOWN HUNDREDS OF DAYCARE
OPERATIONS IN WISCONSIN AFTER
UNCOVERING MORE THAN $20 MILLION
OF FRAUD IN THE SO-CALLED
"WISCONSIN SHARES" PROGRAM.
THE NEARLY $400 MILLION
GOVERNMENT FUNDED PROGRAM PAYS
FOR CHILDCARE SO LOW-INCOME
FAMILIES CAN GO TO WORK. THE
LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF SUBSIDIZED
CHILD CARE PROVIDERS ARE IN
MILWAUKEE, WHERE MANY WHO'VE
BEEN CUT OFF ARE CRYING FOUL.
>> YOU DON'T REALIZE THAT
THERE'S SOME INJUSTICE INVOLVED
IN THIS.
MANY ARE QUICK TO POINT THE
FINGER AT DAY CARE PROVIDERS BUT
WHEN YOU HEAR SOME OF THE
STORIES YOURSELF, THERE'S
SOMETHING GOING ON HERE THAT IS
NOT RIGHT.
>> MILWAUKEE RADIO SHOW HOST,
EARL INGRAM, SAYS SOMETHING IS
NOT RIGHT ABOUT THE STATE
CRACKDOWN ON FRAUD IN THE
WISCONSIN SHARES FRAUD PROGRAM.
>> HOW ARE YOU DOING?
>> CALLERS JAMMED THE LINE AND
ON THIS SHOW, MOST OF THEM ARE
OF THE SAME OPINION.
>> THIS IS MALICIOUS PROSECUTION
THEY HAVE INTENT TO GO AFTER
THESE PEOPLE.
>> I APPRECIATE THE CALL.
I TRULY DO APPRECIATE IT.
>> SINCE SEPTEMBER, MORE THAN
200 CHILD CARE PROVIDERS, MOST
OF THEM IN MILWAUKEE, HAVE BEEN
SUSPENDED OR REVOKED FROM THE
PROGRAM THAT USES GOVERNMENT
MONEY TO PAY THE CHILD CARE OF
LOW-INCOME FAMILIES.
STATE AUDITORS HAVE UNCOVERED
MORE THAN $20 MILLION OF FRAUD
IN WISCONSIN SHARES.
UNDER NEW LAWS, THE STATE CAN
SUSPEND PAYMENTS AND EFFECTIVELY
SHUT DOWN CHILD CARE CENTERS AND
HOMES IF A REGULATOR REASONABLY
SUSPECTS FRAUD.
IN ADDITION TO SEVEN RETIRED
POLICE OFFICERS AROUND THE STATE
MAKING INVESTIGATIVE VISITS TO
CHILD CARE PROVIDERS, THE
DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND
FAMILIES USES A NEW COMPUTER
PROGRAM DESIGNED TO TRACK RED
FLAGS, THAT WOULD MAKE THEM
SUSPECT FRAUD.
FLAGS LIKE MISSING ATTENDANCE
RECORDS OR RAPID REVENUE GROWTH.
>> WE STARTED TO LOOK AT REVENUE
GROWTH WHERE A PROVIDER WOULD
GROW FROM ZERO TO $500,000 IN
ANNUALIZED REVENUE IN A ONE-YEAR
PERIOD WHEN YOU KNOW THAT
NATIONAL, WELL-ESTABLISHED
PLAYERS WHO HAVE ALL THE
ADVANTAGE OF SCALE AND SCOPE
CAN'T DO THE SAME THING.
WHEN WE STARTED TO LOOK AT THAT
DATA, THEN WE SAID NOW WE'RE
GETTING A SENSE OF THE SIZE OF
THIS PROBLEM.
>> PROVIDERS ARE ALLOWED TO
APPEAL SUSPENSIONS AND
REVOKATIONS AND THAT TAKES TIME
AND BY THEN, THEIR BUSINESSES
ARE CLOSED AND DAY CARE FAMILIES
HAVE MADE OTHER ARRANGEMENTS.
>> WE'RE WAITING AND WE'RE
WAITING WITH NO PAY.
THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM BECAUSE
OUR FAMILIES SUFFER, OUR
EMPLOYEES' FAMILIES SUFFER.
>> SHAWN MARYWEATHER JOINS THE
CHORUS ON EARL WILLIAMS' RADIO
SHOW.
>> HE'S BACK.
>> AS DOES FORMER SCHOOL BOARD
MEMBER, LEON TODD, WHO HAS TAKEN
ON THE CAUSE FOR THE OUSTED
PROVIDERS.
>> THE WAY WE WENT ABOUT THIS
WAS WE CUT THEM ALL OFF
UNDERSTAND SUSPICION.
THAT MEANS YOU CUT OFF THEIR
INCOME AND NOW YOU CAN GO AFTER
THEM AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE
WHEREWITHAL TO HIRE AN ATTORNEY.
>> SO MILWAUKEE ATTORNEY,
FELICIA MILLER WATSON, HAS
STEPPED UP TO HELP.
SHE, LIKE OTHERS, SAY THE STATE
WAS LAXED IN ITS OVERSIGHT AND
IS TRYING TO MAKE IT UP.
>> THE STATE OF WISCONSIN HAD
NOT DONE ANYTHING, SO NOW
THEY'RE IN RUSH MODE BECAUSE
THEY'RE BEHIND THE GUN, AND NOW
WE'RE JUST GOING TO CUT FOLKS SO
WE CAN NOW CUT MONEY TO
DIFFERENT PROVIDERS WHEN IT'S
NOT BEING FAIR, IT'S NOT
FOLLOWING DUE PROCESS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST, AS WE CAN
SAY, IT'S NOT RIGHT.
>> I THINK THAT YOU SHOULD BE--
YOU SHOULD BE INNOCENT UNTIL
PROVEN GUILTY.
>> LA TASHA JACKSON WILDER IS
APPEALING THE STATE'S REVOCATION
OF HER LICENSE FOR ALLEGED
OVERPAYMENT.
SO FAR, ONE HEARING EXAMINER HAS
SIDED WITH HER.
BUT SHE BECAME THE POSTER
PROVIDER FOR REPORTEDLY MAKING
BIG MONEY OFF THE WISCONSIN
SHARES PROGRAM WHEN PHOTOS OF
HER SUBURBAN MANSION HIT THE
NEWS.
HER NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR, ALSO A
MILWAUKEE CHILD CARE PROVIDER,
GETTING WISCONSIN SHARES
PAYMENTS, ALSO LIVES IN A
MANSION.
DAY CARE PROVIDERS ARE BUSINESS
PEOPLE.
THEY GOT INTO THE BUSINESS TO
MAKE MONEY.
THIS IS NOT A NOT FOR PROFIT.
THIS ISN'T A CHURCH.
THIS IS A PERSON ENTERING IN A
CONTRACT WITH THE STATE TO MAKE
MONEY.
>> THE DEPART HAS TAKEN MORE
AGGRESSIVE ACTION THAN EVER.
>> DEPARTMENT OF FAMILIES
SECRETARY, REGGIE VICA, APPEARED
BEFORE A LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE
TRACKING THE FRAUD.
TELLING LAWMAKERS HE'S TAKING
OUT SOME BIG MONEYMAKERS.
>> WE SUSPENDED PAYMENTS TO
SEVERAL PROVIDERS THAT WERE
TAKING IN MORE THAN A MILLION
DOLLARS PER YEAR IN SHARES
PAYMENTS.
>> THE STATE SAYS CASSANDRA
HOLLEY WAS TAKING IN NEARLY $2
MILLION A YEAR IN WISCONSIN
SHARES PAYMENTS BEFORE SHE
VOLUNTARILY SURRENDERED HER
CHILD CARE LICENSE AND SHUT DOWN
HER DREAMLAND CENTERS IN
FEBRUARY.
SHE DID THAT JUST AS THE STATE
WAS POISED TO PULL THE LICENSE
OVER HER PAST RECORD.
>> BECAUSE A 19-YEAR-OLD, 27
YEARS AGO, MADE A MISTAKE.
>> HOLLEY, SAID WHEN SHE WAS A
SINGLE TEEN MOTHER, SHE ACCEPTED
UNDER $3,000 TOO MUCH IN FOOD
STAMPS AND WAS CONVICTED OF
PUBLIC ASSISTANCE VIOLATIONS, A
MISDEMEANOR.
SHE PAID IT BACK.
>> I KEEP WAKING UP THINKING
THAT IT'S A BAD DREAM AND THAT
IT'S NOT REAL.
>> BUT NEW LAWS, IN EFFECT IN
FEBRUARY, PERMANENTLY BAR A
PROVIDER FROM HAVING A CHILD
CARE LICENSE FOR ANY PUBLIC
ASSISTANCE FRAUD EVER.
>> YOU TELL ME THAT I AM
PERMANENTLY BARRED AND I WILL
NEVER BE ABLE TO BE A PART OF A
CHILD'S LIFE AGAIN, GO GET A JOB
, THAT'S CRUEL.
>> HOLLEY EVEN HAD HER
CONVICTION EXPUNGED BY A JUDGE
WHO STATED THIS WERE NO OTHER
OFFENSES SINCE THIS OFFENSE, AND
THE OFFENSE OCCURRED IN 1983.
>> WHAT HER CRIME WAS A
MISDEMEANOR WHERE SHE WAS
EXPUNGED.
SHE RECEIVED AN EXPUNGEMENT FROM
THE STATE AND THE COURTS, AND
SHE'S STILL EVEN THEN, YOU STILL
CAN'T HAVE YOUR OWN BUSINESS?
SOMEHOW THAT SEEMS WRONG,
COMPLETELY WRONG.
>> CASSANDRA HOLLEY SAID SHE
STARTED HER CAREER AS A
HEADSTART TEACHER AND TWO
DECADES AGO OPENED HER OWN CHILD
CARE BUSINESS.
>> THIS IS ALL I KNOW HOW TO DO.
>> IT'S MY CONCLUSION THAT THEY
HAVE DRAWN THEIR CONCLUSION
ABOUT FRAUD AND NOW THEY'VE GONE
ABOUT PROVING PIT THEY'RE GOING
TO PROVE IT ANY WAY THEY CAN AND
DUE PROCESS IS GOING OUT THE
WINDOW.
EQUAL PROTECTION IS GOING OUT
THE WINDOW.
NEW STATUTES ARE BEING
RETROACTIVELY APPLIED TO PASSIVE
ACTIONS.
>> BUT THE SECRETARY IS
UNAPOLOGETIC, TELLING US, WHILE
SOME MIGHT SAY OUR ACTIONS ARE
TOO AGGRESSIVE WE ARE CONFIDENT
THAT HOLDING CHILD CARE PROVIDE
TOGETHERS HIGH STANDARDS IS THE
RIGHT THING TO DO FOR KIDS AND A
FAIR WAY TO PROTECT TAXPAYER
DOLLARS.
DREAMLAND HAD TO CLOSE UP SHOP
SO FAST CHILDREN LEFT BACKPACKS
AND SWEATSHIRTS ON THE HOOKS.
ONE EXAMPLE OF HUNDREDS IN THE
STATE'S TOUGH, NEW CRACKDOWN ON
FRAUD.
>> NOW THIS UPDATE TO THIS
STORY, THE DEPARTMENT OF
CHILDREN AND FAMILIES HAS JUST
REINSTATED
CASSANDRA HOLLEY'S LICENSE BASED
ON THE FACT HER MISDEMEANOR HAD
BEEN EXPUNGED BY A JUDGE.
THE DEPARTMENT SAYS THIS IS AN
EXAMPLE OF ITS EFFORTS TO APPLY
DUE PROCESS WHILE WORKING WITH
NEW LAWS DESIGNED TO ELIMINATE
FRAUD.
HOLLEY SAYS SHE'S THRILLED AND
EXPECTS TO RE-OPEN SOON.
BUT WHAT OF THE METHODS USED BY
THE STATE TO CRACK DOWN ON
FRAUD, THE USE OF REASONABLE
SUSPICION TO SHUT DOWN
PROVIDERS?
PERMANENT BARS TO LICENSURE
BASED ON PAST, EVEN MISDEMEANOR,
RECORDS?
SOMEONE AT THE EPICENTER OF
THESE ISSUES, IS MILWAUKEE
DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE,
TAMARA GRIGSBY.
SHE'S CHAIR OF THE ASSEMBLY
COMMITTEE ON CHILDREN AND
FAMILIES AND A MEMBER OF THE
LEGISLATURE'S JOINT FINANCE
COMMITTEE.
SHE JOINS US IN MILWAUKEE AND
THANK YOU FOR DOING SO.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOU ARE CLEARLY AT THE
EPICENTER OF THIS ISSUE GIVEN
YOUR POSITIONS IN THE
LEGISLATURE AND IN THE DISTRICT.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO WHAT
SOME OF IN THE CHILD CARE
COMMUNITY AND MILWAUKEE REGARD
AS THIS HEAVY HAND WHEN IT COMES
TO THE CRACKDOWN ON FRAUD?
>> WELL, I'D LIKE TO START OFF
BY SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO BE
VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.
INDEPENDENT ORGANIZATIONS, THE
LEGISLATIVE AUDIT BUREAU DID
FIND $20 MILLION IN FRAUD AT A
TIME WHERE I WAS SITTING ON
JOINT FINANCE TRYING TO MANAGE A
$60 BILLION BUDGET WITH A $6
BILLION DEFICIT.
SO THERE WAS A CONCERN ABOUT
FINDING FRAUD AND GETTING RID OF
IT AND PROTECTING TAXPAYER
DOLLARS.
AT THE SAME TIME, WHAT I WILL
SAY, IS I DO HAVE SOME SERIOUS
CONCERNS ABOUT HOW SOME OF
LEGISLATION AND SOME OF THE
PROVISIONS IN THE BUDGET HAVE
BEEN ENFORCED, AND THERE SEEMS
TO BE SOME UNINTENDED
CONSEQUENCES FOR HOW THE
IMPLEMENTATION OF SOME OF THOSE
THINGS HAVE COME ABOUT.
SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I'M
VERY CONCERNED ABOUT, AND I
REALLY FEEL FOR SOME OF THE
STORIES THAT I'VE HEARD, AND I'M
WORKING VERY HARD ON TRYING TO
ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE CONCERNS.
>> WHAT ARE YOUR SERIOUS
CONCERNS IN TERMS OF SOME OF THE
LEGISLATION AND HOW IT'S BEEN
METED OUT?
>> WELL, ONE THE THINGS I WANT
TO START WITH IS DURING THE
BUDGET PROCESS WHEN WE TALKED
ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT BEING ABLE
TO GO AFTER THE FRAUD THAT THE
LEGISLATIVE AUDIT BUREAU FOUND
AND WE PUT-- I MEAN MY OFFICE.
WE PUT IN LANGUAGE IN THE BUDGET
THAT SAYS TO GO AFTER SOMEONE
THAT FRAUD HAD TO BE INTENTIONAL
AND EGREGIOUS.
THE GOVERNOR VETOED OUT THOSE
WORDS.
SO THAT LEFT THEM WITH THE
ABILITY TO GO AFTER PEOPLE
WITHOUT ANY PROOF OF INTENTION,
ANY MEASUREMENT OF EGREGIOUSNESS
AND SO THAT IS WHAT, IN MY
OPINION, HAS RESULTED IN
SOMEWHAT-- WHAT APPEARS TO BE
SOMEWHAT OF A WITCH HUNT BECAUSE
THERE'S NO PARAMETERS THAT YOU
USE TO GO AFTER PEOPLE.
THAT'S ONE OF THE CONCERNS THAT
I REALLY HAVE.
THE SECOND ONE IS THAT THERE ARE
REAL ISSUES WITH DUE PROCESS.
I'VE HEARD FROM MANY, MANY
PROVIDERS THAT ONCE THEY HAVE
BEEN SUSPENDED OR REVOKED THAT
THEY DON'T HAVE THE RECOURSE
THAT SHOULD BE EXPECTED IN ANY
OTHER CASE WHERE SOMEONE'S
LICENSE HAS BEEN REVOKED.
SO WE'RE WORKING WITH THE
DEPARTMENT ON THAT, AND THE LAST
THING I'LL SAY IS THAT WE ARE--
MY OFFICE IS CURRENTLY WORKING
ON LEGISLATION, WAIVER
LEGISLATION THAT WOULD GIVE THE
DEPARTMENT THE ABILITY TO WAIVE
PEOPLE BASED ON THEIR, YOU KNOW,
INDIVIDUAL CIRCUMSTANCES AS
OPPOSED TO JUST DOING THIS BROAD
SWEEP OF, YOU KNOW, ALL
PROVIDERS WITHOUT TAKING INTO
ACCOUNT THEIR INDIVIDUAL
CIRCUMSTANCES.
>> WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, WAIVE
PEOPLE?
>> WELL, THE DEPARTMENT WOULD BE
ABLE TO LOOK AT INDIVIDUAL CASES
IF SOMEONE WERE REVOKED OR
SUSPENDED, THE DEPARTMENT-- THE
PERSON WOULD BE ABLE TO SAY I
WANT TO APPLY FOR A WAIVER, AND
THEN THE DEPARTMENT WOULD LOOK
AT THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES AND
DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT, YOU
KNOW, THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES
WARRANTED THEM, YOU KNOW, HAVING
A WAIVER.
LIKE SOME OF THE STORIES I HAVE
SEEN, CLEARLY SOMEONE WHO MADE A
MISTAKE, YOU KNOW, 20, 30 YEARS
AGO AND HAVE PROVEN THEMSELVES
TO BE A QUALITY PROVIDER AND
HAVE DONE, YOU KNOW, MANY OF THE
THINGS THIS WE EXPECTED FOR A
QUALITY PROVIDER TO DO SHOULD BE
GIVEN A CHANCE TO HAVE A SECOND
LOOK, AND SO THIS WOULD PROVIDE
A DOOR, AN OPEN DOOR FOR THAT TO
HAPPEN.
WE ALSO-- I'M SORRY.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT WE
ALSO LOOKED AT SOME OF THE
CRIMES INCLUDED IN THAT
LEGISLATION AND MOVED FROM
PERMANENT BARS TO TEMPORARY BARS
SO THAT THEY CAN BE REVIEWED
AFTER FIVE YEARS AND GIVING
PEOPLE, AGAIN, ANOTHER CHANCE TO
GET BACK INTO THE PROGRAM.
>> THAT'S A PIECE OF LEGISLATION
THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO AUTHOR
AND PUT THROUGH CHANGING THOSE
PERMANENT BARS FOR THINGS LIKE
PUBLIC ASSISTANCE VIOLATIONS OR
EVEN CABLE AND SATELLITE THEFT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THOSE ARE THE AREAS, THE
FINANCIAL CRIMES ARE WHERE WE'RE
MOVING IT-- WE'RE TRYING TO MOVE
IT FROM PERMANENT TO FIVE-YEAR
BAR, AND THAT'S-- IT'S MORE THAN
LOOKING AT LEGISLATION.
WE ACTUALLY DRAFTED IT, AND
WE'RE LOOKING TO HAVE I APUBLIC
HEARING AT THE END OF THE MONTH.
>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE STATE
HAS KIND OF SWEPT UP INNOCENT
PROVIDERS, OR DO YOU BELIEVE
THAT THEY'VE DONE A GOOD JOB IN
FERRETING OUT FRAUD?
>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A MIXED
BAG.
I THINK THAT-- I MEAN, AGAIN, NO
ONE CAN DENY THE FACT THAT THERE
ARE SOME BAD PROVIDERS OUT THERE
THAT WERE COMMITTING FRAUD, AND
AGAIN, AS A STEWARD OF TAXPAYER
DOLLARS, I HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY
TO MAKE SURE THOSE DOLLARS ARE
SPENT IN THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY.
AT THE SAME TIME, I DO THINK
THAT THE DEPARTMENT HAS-- ITS
ADMINISTRATION HAS JUMPED IN
LIGHT OF A LOT OF BAD PRESS, AND
MAY NOT HAVE BEEN AS THOUGHTFUL
IN THE WAYS AND THE METHODS OF
GOING ABOUT THIS THING.
TO ME, THE LANGUAGE IN THE
BUDGET THAT SAID THE FRAUD-- THE
SUSPICION HAS TO BE INTENTIONAL,
THAT THERE'S INTENT AND THERE'S
A LEVEL OF EGREGIOUSNESS AND TO
VETO THAT OUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK
THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT CAUSES SOME
REAL-- RAISES SOME REAL
QUESTIONS.
>> NOW I DO KNOW THAT THE JOINT
FINANCE COMMITTEE, WHICH YOU ARE
A PART OF, IS EXPECTED TO VOTE
THIS MONTH ON THE GOVERNOR AND
SECRETARY'S YOUNGSTAR CHILDCARE
RATING SYSTEM.
HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO VOTE ON
THAT?
>> I HAVE SOME SERIOUS QUESTIONS
ABOUT THE CHILD CARE RATING
SYSTEM.
I HAVE ALWAYS SUPPORTED QUALITY
CHILD CARE.
BEFORE I CAME TO THE
LEGISLATURE, I WAS WORKING AS A
SOCIAL WORKER.
I ALWAYS WORKED WITH KIDS AND
FAMILIES% SO QUALITY CARE IS MY
NUMBER ONE PRIORITY, AND I THINK
THIS COULD BE A GOOD SYSTEM, BUT
THERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS, MAINLY
RELATED TO DUE PROCESS THAT I
MENTIONED EARLIER.
IF PEOPLE ARE HAVING PROBLEMS
WITH PROCESS NOW AND WITH
RECOURSE NOW, I AM HESITANT TO
IMPLEMENT ANOTHER SYSTEM THAT
MAY TAKE PROVIDER OUT OF THE
PROGRAM WHEN THAT-- WHEN THAT
RECOURSE IS NOT THERE RIGHT NOW.
SO WE'RE REALLY WORKING WITH THE
DEPARTMENT TO TRY TO GET THEM TO
GET A SYSTEM IN PLACE WHERE
PEOPLE CAN APPEAL AND HAVE A
FAIR PROCESS TO GO THROUGH SO
THAT THEY CAN, YOU KNOW, HAVE
THEIR RIGHTS RESPECTED.
>> AND TAKE PART IN THAT SYSTEM.
TAMARA GRIGSBY, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF
CHILDREN AND FAMILIES REPORTS
THAT NEARLY 50 PROVIDERS ARE
BEING CRIMINALLY INVESTED BY THE
MILWAUKEE ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AS
PART OF THE ANTI-FRAUD TRAFFIC
FORCE AND WE SWITCH GEARS AND GO
TO THE WELL FOR ENVIRONMENTAL
NEWS.
LEGISLATORS AND REPRESENTATIVES
OF ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS GATHERED
NEAR A SPRING IN THE UW
ARBORETUM IN MADISON TO UNVEIL
A NEW GROUNDWATER PROTECTION
BILL.
GROUNDWATER IS PLENTIFUL IN
WISCONSIN BUT NOT UNLIMITED.
LARGE WITHDRAWALS HAVE LED TO
LOWER WATER LEVELS IN SOME STATE
LAKES AND STREAMS.
THE PROPOSAL WOULD ALLOW LOCAL
GOVERNMENTS TO DESIGNATE
GROUNDWATER PROTECTION AREAS AND
PUT IN PLACE STRICTER
REGULATIONS ON HIGH CAPACITY
WELLS.
THEY PUMP WATER FOR THINGS LIKE
AGRICULTURAL IRRIGATION AND
LARGE FACTORIES.
ONE AREA LIKELY TO BE CONSIDERED
FOR THE DESIGNATION WOULD BE THE
AREA IN WAUSHARA COUNTY WERE
SEVERAL LAKES, INCLUDING LONG
LAKE, HAVE DRIED UP.
WE REPORTED ON THE GROUNDWATER
SITUATION IN THAT AREA LAST
NOVEMBER ON OUR SISTER PROGRAM,
"IN WISCONSIN."
BRIAN WOLF, WHO OWNS A COTTAGE
ON LONG LAKE, HAILED THE NEW
LEGISLATION.
>> THE BEST VISUAL IMAGE I CAN
GIVE TO FOLKS IS THAT IF YOU CAN
IMAGINE WATER IN A HOT TUB AND
YOU PULL THE PLUG ON IT.
THAT'S HOW DRAMATIC OUR LAKE
LOSS WAS.
AS I GOT INVOLVED IN THIS
PROCESS OF WATER ISSUES, PEOPLE
WOULD COME TO ME AND SAY, YOU
KNOW, YOUR LAKE WENT DRY BECAUSE
OF DROUGHT ISSUES, OR LONG LAKE
HAS GONE DRY BEFORE.
IT WILL COME BACK AS SOON AS WE
GET ENOUGH MOISTURE.
YOUR LAKE LEVELS WILL RECHARGE
ITSELF AND YOU WILL GET YOUR
LAKE BACK.
WHAT BOTHERS ME WITH THOSE
COMMENTS IS THEY DON'T GIVE
CONSIDERATION TO THE SIGNIFICANT
INCREASE IN HIGH CAPACITY WELLS
THAT WE HAVE HAD IN OUR AREA.
>> NO ONE WANTS TO SEE WISCONSIN
LAKES GO THE WAY OF LONG LAKE
BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WORRY
GROUNDWATER MANAGEMENT AREAS
WILL PUT A PINCH ON AGRICULTURE
AND BUSINESS.
SENATE MINORITY LEADER SCOTT
FITZGERALD IS ONE OF THOSE.
SENATOR MARK MILLER IS THE
CO-SPONSOR OF THE GROUNDWATER
BILL.
THANKS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR BEING
HERE.
>> FIRST TO YOU, SENATOR MILLER,
HAVING STUDIED THIS ISSUE AND
DRAFTED THESE PROPOSED NEW RULES
FOR GROUNDWATER, DESCRIBE WHY
YOU THINK WE NEED THESE FURTHER
PROTECTIONS.
HOW CRITICAL IS THIS IN YOUR
MIND?
>> I THINK IT'S VERY CRITICAL.
WATER IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO
OUR ECONOMY IN THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN.
OVER A QUARTER OF OUR JOBS ARE
DIRECTLY RELATED TO WATER USE,
AND THE TOURIST INDUSTRY IS VERY
MUCH DEPENDENT ON GOOD QUALITY
SURFACE WATERS.
SO IF WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE
THAT WE HAVE THAT RESOURCE
AVAILABLE FOR JOBS LONG INTO THE
FUTURE WHEN WATER BECOMES MUCH
MORE VALUABLE, IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT WE TAKE STEPS NOW TO USE IT
IN A SMART WAY.
>> AND SHOULD CITIZENS
UNDERSTAND THAT ACTUALLY WE ARE
DEPLETING OUR WATER RESOURCE, I
MEAN, OUR GROUNDWATER, AND
THAT'S WHY THESE LAKES LIKE LONG
LAKE ARE LITERALLY GOING DRY?
>> BECAUSE WE ARE A WATER RICH
STATE, MOST CITIZENS DON'T
RECOGNIZE THAT WE'RE RUNNING
SHORT OF WATER IN SOME PARTS OF
THE STATE, BUT THOSE FOLKS WHO
LIVE IN THAT PART OF THE STATE
CERTAINLY DO RECOGNIZE IT.
WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO WITH
THIS LEGISLATION IS IDENTIFY
AREAS THAT IF CURRENT TRENDS
CONTINUE, THAT WE WILL RUN INTO
WATER SHORTAGE PROBLEMS, AND IN
THOSE AREAS WHERE WATER SHORTAGE
S ALREADY EXISTS TAKE
STEPS TO CORRECT IT.
>> AND CURRENT TRENDS BEING
INCREASING WATER USAGE AND
INCREASED HIGH CAPACITY WELLS?
>> INCREASING WATER USAGE, FOR
WHATEVER PURPOSE.
YOU KNOW, WE ARE AN AGRICULTURAL
STATE, SO WE RELY ON IRRIGATION.
WE ARE A MANUFACTURING STATE
THAT REQUIRES WATER USE FOR A
LOT OF MANUFACTURING PROCESSES.
WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE
SMART IN THE WAY THAT WE USE
THAT RESOURCE.
>> SENATOR FITZGERALD, IN TERMS
OF BEING SMART, WHAT IS YOUR--
WHAT ARE YOUR MAJOR CONCERNS
ABOUT THESE NEW RULES FOR HIGH
CAPACITY WELLS?
>> WELL, I'VE BEEN AROUND THE
LEGISLATURE LONG ENOUGH TO
REMEMBER WHEN THE DEBATE STARTED
ONER ANDIER-- PEREI RE. AND
WHETHER THE HIGH CAPACITY WELLS
THEY WANTED TO DRILL IN THE
CENTRAL PART OF THE STATE WAS
GOING TO HAVE AN EFFECT ON
GROUNDWATER.
I THOUGHT THERE WAS A GOOD
MEASURED RESPONSE TO THAT ISSUE
AND THAT DISCUSSION, AND THAT
WAS TO PUT TOGETHER A BIPARTISAN
TASK FORCE, A GROUP THAT COULD
WORK ON A BILL AND THAT WAS
PASSED IN 2004, AND I THINK THAT
SERVED US WELL.
IT IS TIME TO REVISIT IT?
I'M NOT SO SURE ABOUT THAT.
>> DO YOU THINK THESE NEW RULES
GO TOO FAR?
>> I DO.
I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT A
COUPLE OF THE SECTORS-- THAT
HAVE ALWAYS BEEN STRONG FOR US,
LIKE AGRICULTURE AND
MANUFACTURING AND WHETHER OR NOT
IT WOULD HAVE A DIRECT EFFECT,
BEYOND JUST THE BOTTLING THAT
WOULD ALSO BE, YOU KNOW, PART OF
CORPORATIONS THAT DO BUSINESS IN
WISCONSIN, AND ONCE AGAIN, I
THINK WE SHOULD PROBABLY PROCEED
WITH CAUTION ON.
THIS I DON'T THINK WE WILL BE
SERVED WELL TO KIND OF RAM
SOMETHING THROUGH OR DO
SOMETHING HASTILY AT THE END OF
TWO-YEAR SESSION.
>> SENATOR MILLER, WHAT IF A
POTATO GROWER, FOR EXAMPLE, IN
THE SANDY SOILS OF THIS STATE OR
A CITY OR FACTORY NEEDS A HIGH
CAPACITY WELL, BUT THAT WELL
WOULD BE NEAR A VULNERABLE
STREAM OR LAKE OR WATERWAY, DO
WE SAY THAT WELL THEN CAN'T BE
DRILLED?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT
OF DIFFERENT WAYS OF MANAGING
THE RESOURCE, AND SOMETIMES ALL
YOU HAVE TO DO IS LOCATE THE
WELL IN A DIFFERENT AREA.
OR, IF YOU NEED THE WATER TO
FIGURE OUT IF YOU ARE OVERUSING
THE RESOURCE, THEN IT BECOMES
LESS AND LESS VALUABLE AND
USABLE TO THE CURRENT USER.
SO IF YOU WERE THAT POTATO
FARMER AND A HIGH CAPACITY WELL
FOR A PLANT WAS BEING PROPOSED,
I THINK YOU WOULD WANT TO BE
ABLE TO ASSURE THAT THE USE OF
THAT WATER DID NOT UNDERMINE
YOUR LIVELIHOOD AS A FARMER.
>> WELL, I GUESS THAT'S
ESPECIALLY TRUE, SENATOR
FITZGERALD, BECAUSE YOU WORRY
ABOUT JOB LOSS.
WE ALL WOULD WORRY ABOUT JOB
LOSS.
WE WOULD WORRY ABOUT THE FARMER
WHO NEEDED THE IRRIGATION AND
COULDN'T GET IT.
WE WOULD WORRY ABOUT THE LARGE
FACTORY WHO NEEDED SOME HIGH
CAPACITY WELL AND COULDN'T GET
IT, BUT WHAT KIND OF JOB LOSS
WOULD THERE BE IF THE WATER WENT
DRY?
>> WELL, MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT
IT, WHAT THIS DOES IS FURTHER
EMPOWER THE DEPARTMENT OF
NATURAL RESOURCES TO CERTAINLY
DEVELOP MORE SCRUTINY AND
ULTIMATELY, I THINK EVEN SOME
RULES THAT WOULD EMPOWER THE
BUREAUCRACY, AND YOU KNOW, WE
JUST VISITED THAT IN A
BIPARTISAN WAY A COUPLE OF YEARS
AGO WHEN WE SAID, LISTEN, WE
NEED TO CUT THROUGH THE RED TAPE
TO ACTUALLY MAKE WISCONSIN A
GOOD PLACE TO DO BUSINESS.
I MEAN, IF YOU ARE IN A BUSINESS
THAT UTILIZES WATER, THE LAST
THING YOU WANT IS FOR THAT
WATTER TO GO AWAY AND THAT'S WHY
I THINK IT'S KIND OF
COUNTERINTUITIVE TO SAY THAT
THIS MAKES SENSE.
I REALLY THINK IT'S ALSO
SOMETHING THAT'S BEING MOVED
THROUGH THE LEGISLATIVE PROCESS
VERY QUICKLY AT THE END OF
SESSION, AND I WISH THIS WOULD
HAVE BEEN STARTED TWO YEARS AGO
AND WE WOULD HAVE A LOT MORE
INPUT THAN WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.
>> ACTUALLY, THAT'S A
MISCHARACTERIZATION.
WHAT THIS BILL DOES IS IN AREAS
WHERE YOU ARE HAVING THE
SHORTAGE, IT EMPOWERS THE PEOPLE
WHO ARE AFFECTED BY THAT
SHORTAGE TO DEVELOP THE PLANS
FOR HOW YOU WILL USE THE WATER.
ONCE THEY COMPLETE THAT, THEN
DNR ISSUES WELL PERMITS IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THOSE PLANS.
IT VERY MUCH EMPOWERS LOCAL
JURISDICTIONS.
>> FOR AN INDIVIDUAL BECAUSE NOW
IF ONE INDIVIDUAL FILES A
COMPLAINT, SUDDENLY THE DNR WILL
BE ALL OVER THIS.
THAT'S ALARMING TO ME.
I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S SOMETHING
THAT WE ACTUALLY WANT TO MOVE
FORWARD.
>> I UNDERSTAND THAT THE PEOPLE
IN THE DNR WHO ARE CURRENTLY
PERMITTING HIGH CAPACITY WELLS
AND THEY ARE WORKING AS FAST AS
THEY CAN RIGHT NOW TO GET THOSE
OUT THE DOOR.
I GUESS STATUTORILY, THEY HAVE
90 DAYS OR SOMETHING AND THEY'RE
WORKING FASTER THAN THAT, BUT
WOULD THESE NEW REGULATIONS SLOW
THAT PERMITTING PROCESS AND THEN
IMPINGE ON ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT?
>> ACTUALLY, NO.
BECAUSE THERE'S AT LEAST-- A
MINIMUM OF THREE-YEAR PLANNING
PROCESS BEFORE ANYTHING NEW
WOULD GO INTO PLACE, AND SO IN
TERMS OF LOCAL GROUNDWATER
MANAGEMENT AREAS AND SO THERE
WOULD BE A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY
AND TIME TO GO FORWARD ON A
RATIONAL BASIS.
IN TERMS OF THE PROCESS FOR HOW
WE CAME TO THIS BILL, THE 2004
LEGISLATION ESTABLISHED THE
GROUNDWATER ADVISORY COMMITTEE
TO MAKE RECOMMENDATIONS AND WE
USED THEIR TWO REPORTS THAT THEY
ISSUED TO THE BASIS FOR THIS,
THE GROUNDWATER COORDINATING
COUNCIL ISSUED A RECENT REPORT.
THE WISCONSIN ACADEMY OF
SCIENCES AND ARTS, AND WE HAVE A
LOT OF CITIZEN INPUT AND
RESEARCH THAT WENT INTO THE BILL
THAT WE CRAFTED AND PUT FORWARD
THIS WEEK.
>> YOU'RE SAYING IT'S NOT JUST
LEGISLATORS UNDER THE DOME, BUT
THERE WAS A LOT OF SCIENCE TIFF
AND OTHER RESEARCH THAT WENT
INTO.
NOT MUCH TIME LEFT IN THIS
SESSION.
WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN
THIS YEAR?
>> WELL, THE-- WE ALREADY HAD A
NUMBER OF PUBLIC HEARINGS WHEN
WE PUT TOGETHER THE BILL TO MAKE
SURE THAT WE HAD THE SCIENTIFIC
INPUT IN PARTICULAR.
SO BILL'S OUT THERE.
WE WILL BE MEETING VARIOUS
CONSTITUENCY GROUPS, WATER USERS
AND SO FORTH, TO EDUCATE THEM IN
HOW THE BILL WIL OPERATE AND
FOR THEM TO TELL US WHERE THEY
THINK IT MIGHT BE IMPROVED, AND
I EXPECT WE REPORT IT OUT AND
VOTE ON IT LATER IN THE SESSION.
>> WE'VE GOT FOUR DAYS LEFT ON
THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE, AND THE
SPONSORSHIP FOR THIS LEGISLATION
WAS JUST RECENTLY CIRCULATED.
THIS IS DEFINITELY A BILL THAT'S
BEEN FAST TRACKED, AND I'M NOT
SURE EXACTLY WHERE THE SUPPORT
IS.
>> WELL, WE'LL WATCH.
SENATOR FITZGERALD AND SENATOR
MILLER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>>.
>> NOW TO A COUPLE OF OTHER
ITEMS IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK.
A DAIRYLAND DEBATE IN EAU CLAIRE
WEDNESDAY.
THAT'S WHERE HUNDREDS GATHERED
AT A HEARING FOR A BILL THAT
WOULD ALLOW PEOPLE TO BUY
UNPASTEURIZED OR RAW MILK
DIRECTLY FROM WISCONSIN FARMERS.
RIGHT NOW THAT'S ALLOWED IN VERY
LIMITED WAYS.
THOSE WHO DRINK RAW MILK SAY IT
CONTAINS NUTRIENTS WIPED OUT BY
PASTEURIZATION.
OFFICIALS WITH THE WISCONSIN
DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, TRADE
AND CONSUMER PROTECTIONS SAY
SALES OF UNPASTEURIZED COULD
LEAD TO OUTBREAKS OF FOOD-BOURNE
ILLNESSES.
NEXT WEEK, WE'LL HAVE OUR OWN
HEARING ON THE RAW MILK BILL AND
THAT'S WHERE WE WILL SIT DOWN
WITH A MILK PRODUCER RIGHT HERE.
NEW STATE JOB NUMBERS ARE OUT.
JANUARY 2010 SEASONALLY ADJUSTED
NUMBERS HAVE IMPROVED SLIGHTLY
SHOWING A NET GAIN OF 5,600
JOBS.
MOST OF THOSE GAME IN
MANUFACTURING, ADMINISTRATIVE
SUPPORT SERVICES AND HEALTHCARE.
THAT COULD BE PROMISING NEWS TO
THE VETERANS WHO ATTENDED THE
FIRST OF 18 VETERANS JOB FAIRS
AROUND THE STATE.
ONE OF WHICH TOOK PLACE IN
MADISON THURSDAY.
THAT'S WHERE WE FOUND JONATHAN
BARNET, A VET WHO SAYS THE
TRANSITION OF ACTIVE DUTY TO THE
WORK FORCE IS MORE THAN JUST A
SEARCH FOR A PAYCHECK.
>> IT'S KIND OF LIKE A YEAR OF
YOUR LIFE DISAPPEARED WITHOUT
YOU KNOWING IT AND EVERYONE KEPT
DOING STUFF BUT YOU DIDN'T.
SO IT IS GETTING USED TO THAT
FACT AND MOVING FORWARD.
>> YOU CAN FIND LOCATIONS AND
DATES ON FUTURE VETERANS JOB
FAIRS SCHEDULED AROUND THE STATE
BY GOING TO THE HERE&NOW WEB
PAGE.
THAT IS ALL FOR TONIGHT'S
PROGRAM.
NEXT WEEK, WE WILL HEAR FROM
BOTH SIDES OF THE STATE'S RAW
MILK DEBATE, AND OUR
AWARD-WINNING SINGING
COMMENTATOR PETER WILL RETURN
WITH A NEW SONG OF POLITICAL
SATTIRE.
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.