- The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
[upbeat music]
- Claude: I looked in the rearview mirror,
and I tried to close my mouth, but I couldn't.
And that's when I looked up, and I saw the gunshot,
and I looked down, and blood was just gushing out,
just bubbling onto my shirt.
The whole shirt was red, my pants was red,
it was pooling up between my legs.
[tires squeal]
I really started to panic.
I'm trying to think of, "Where is the hospital go to?"
I started to get a little woozy.
[car tire screeching]
I did not want to be found the side of the road, bled out.
No one knew where I was at.
[ominous music]
[camera shutter snaps]
Not only was the blood coming out,
but it was going back into my throat.
And I couldn't breathe.
Thinking about my kids, thinking about my wife,
I'm thinking, "I gotta survive."
? ?
- Welcome to Director's Cut.
I'm Pete Schwaba opening tonight's show
is a clip from the documentary When Claude Got Shot,
a film that takes us to the hard streets of Milwaukee,
where in just a period of a few short days,
three lives were permanently altered due to gun violence.
Joining me tonight are
the film's director, Brad Lichtenstein,
and special guest, and the film's title character,
Claude Motley.
So great to have both you guys here.
Welcome to Directors Cut.
- Thanks for having us. - Thank you.
- So, I have so many questions
'cause the film just lends itself to curiosity
about everything, including your story, Claude,
but how did you guys connect for this film?
Because I saw early in the film,
there's a week later, you're being film driving and I'm like,
"How did this happen?"
Like, a documentary so fast.
Can you talk about how you guys found each other
and how the project started?
- Sure.
We're friends.
We've been friends for 20 years, so--
- That makes sense, okay.
- When all this happened,
Claude was in town with his family,
which is a tradition of coming back in the summer
and different family members stay with different people
in the city, family, friends.
And so, at the time, Claude's son, Soul, was staying with us.
I was actually the one who broke the news to him.
- Pete: Oh, man.
- And then Claude came back to our house to recover
in the days after he was released from the hospital.
So, it was somewhere in that span that we decided
that we were gonna make a film about what lay ahead for him.
- So, this literally fell right in your lap,
this entire....
Claude what,
[Pete sighs]
were you open to that right away,
to Brad rolling the camera and seeing where it took you
or was there any reticence or...?
- Well, you know, that it's a process,
and the thing about it is,
is that we definitely knew from the beginning
that we wanted to speak out against all the things
that were happening in Milwaukee.
And we did clips on the local news,
talking about the issue,
I'm swollen up from after being shot and things like that,
just because we wanted to make sure that this stayed
in the people's mind, the public's mind,
but when this opportunity arose,
we decided to go through with this journey,
to go ahead and get my story out there.
But it's just not in my story.
It's so many other peoples' stories, you know?
So, we want to get that out.
- Well, I wanna remind viewers that the film will air
in its entirety right after this interview,
and this episode of Director's Cut on Independent Lens,
so stick around for that.
Right now, let's go to another clip
of When Claude Got Shot.
- I always knew Claude was gonna go on
and do great and wonderful things.
He was bright, articulate,
he was an athlete, he was popular, he was a smart guy.
We had high expectations of each other.
You kind of push each other toward the light, so to speak.
I had a certain comfort that he was gonna be okay,
and that, a lot of the crazy stuff that happens,
wasn't gonna happen to him.
[calm music]
Most Black families know if you have the ability,
you gotta get your sons outta here.
Milwaukee preys upon young Black men.
There are very few that grow up in this environment
and become successful.
In a segregated city, they do everything to limit
a sector of society from opportunity.
We're a bunch of individuals
going after scraps on a daily basis
and our kids are the result of it.
That kid is a result of it.
Like to think our lives mean more than that.
[ominous music]
[metallic crash]
- When I woke up, I was in a different hospital.
I was shackled to the bed.
[tense music]
The nurse actually came in and I'm like,
"Why am I shackled to the bed?"
And he was like, "Well, you had a rough night"
and I, "What do you mean a rough night?"
"Well, you were kicking.
"We had to do some work on you, and you were--
I think you were in shock; you don't remember."
[ominous music]
I was not granted a phone.
I actually had to ask a person
visiting another patient that was in the ICU at the time
to use his phone.
I'm treated as a perpetrator, first.
Before they knew anything.
[tense music]
Can't tell me that wasn't in their brain.
They can deny it if they want to.
Can't tell me.
- There's so much going on in that clip.
I mean, you know, you leave.
The irony of you're the one that leaves Milwaukee
to get away from those streets
and you come back for a visit,
and you're the one that ends up being a victim
of gun violence.
And then to be strapped down and treated like a perpetrator.
Can you-- how do you make sense?
You must have been so angry!
First at the shooting, and then the way you're treated!
Can you elaborate on that, Claude?
- Well, you know, the thing about it is,
it's double traumatizing.
And it's-- because, you go at the time, and it's...
The saddest thing is at the time, you're there for safety.
You think that you're out,
but to be caught up where you have to still explain
and try to prove that you're not a bad person, you know?
And at that point in time,
regardless to all the things that I've strived for,
I've tried to push for,
I was still just another person they thought
as a perpetrator, regardless.
And it's very hard and it's very difficult
and I know that it happens often and it's too bad,
but, you know, there's something that--
It's just the things that we have to work through
in our society.
And this is the reason why I wanted to make the movie
to shed light on things like that
so that we can start to talking about the issues like this,
so it doesn't happen again.
- And good for you that you know, Brad.
You wanna get your message out
Oh, one of my good friends is documentary filmmaker.
That's pretty cool, too.
Brad, you've been on Director's Cut before,
you and your wife, Ann, were here
and you talked about the movie Penelope,
which taught seniors how to act,
you had As Goes Janesville, and now When Claude Got Shot,
your resume is packed full of different sort of films.
How do you switch gears as a filmmaker?
Like, this is a gritty film.
How do you go back and forth?
And, the second part, how do you decide when something,
when you find something that you're gonna dedicate years
of your life to, what makes it worth that?
[man laughs]
- You're suggesting that there's some rhyme
or reason to all that. [Brad laughs]
I don't know, I'm kinda lucky in that I have a little bit
of a superpower to compartmentalize
and be able to work on lots of things at the same in time.
Maybe it was just a way I've adapted to ADHD
or something who knows.
[man laughs]
And that's what I love about documentaries
to be able to dive into different subjects.
I think the unifying things,
I'm always interested in some aspect of social justice
and when this happened, too,
we were in the middle of a of podcast series
called Precious Lives, which told 100 episodes,
told the stories of young people and gun violence.
So I was already familiar, I think,
with a lot of the issues at play.
And then, it happened to my friend, like--
- Pete: Yeah.
- Who could have predicted?
- So, Brad, you live in Milwaukee.
Claude, you are a Milwaukee native.
You guys, one of you is white, one of you is Black.
It is a very segregated city.
Did you guys talk a lot about your differences
living in the city at times throughout the shoot?
- I mean, we talk about stuff all the time, to be honest.
Yeah, we sort of solve a lot of problems
in our conversations. [Brad and Claude laugh]
A lot of 'em have to do with racism.
- Yeah.
- But when it comes to the subject of this film,
I definitely have had a very different experience.
I mean, the truth is I never knew anyone close to me
who'd been shot, until Claude was shot.
- Wow.
- And I mean, I've had family members, friends,
you know, just people in my life
that have been on both sides of the gun.
They have shot,
and it's always a traumatic thought process
when you go through it.
But it's something that, like you said, we live with,
we try to push forward and try to go,
and try to do the best we can.
But it definitely is a different,
I think we had different experiences growing up.
- For sure.
And you know, I mean, that's part of the thing about violence
and community violence is that it's not really effective
to look at what happens in that moment,
it's always about upstream factors.
And the upstream factors, of course,
in a city like Milwaukee-- frankly, every city in America--
is that there's structural racism, historic racism.
You know, we did not end up in the circumstance by accident.
- That's a great answer.
Let's see another clip from When Claude Got Shot.
- Go over some of the reports with you,
these individuals that we have in custody,
have you heard anything about them?
- Claude Motley: No.
- They've been doing a spree of robberies
for probably a month, taking people's cars
and then doing other street robberies with them.
So, what I'm gonna do now
is just show you a series of photos,
and I know that you already said
that you probably don't think you can identify anybody,
but sometimes our mind recollects stuff once you see it.
- All right.
Number four. - Investigator: Okay.
- That's the hairstyle.
And I don't know about this guy's build,
but the build of his kid was a young body type, skinny.
- That is him.
He is 15 years old.
They did yours on the 21st.
On the 23rd, they meet up with a woman--
they see her as an easy target.
And she gets her 380 out and shoots one of them. [Claude groans]
And that individual has admitted to me
that he's the one who shot you. - Kim Motley: Oh, wow...
- Investigator: And he felt that he didn't shoot you.
He thought he'd shot through the window shield.
And then, once you got shot, he was outta the picture,
but they continued 24th, 25th, 26th.
- Kim: Wow. - They was just going hog wild.
- Yeah, they almost had a death wish or something.
Since he lived off Capitol,
I said, well, what about all those robberies
over off of the Capitol that you did?
You need to tell me about them.
He just started rattling 'em all off.
And I said, "Well, what about the guy that you shot?"
And I'm just throwing it out there.
He's like, "Oh, I didn't shoot him.
I just shot his car because he took off."
And I tell Nathan, "Well, you actually shot somebody."
"I did?"
- Claude, can you elaborate
on what you must have been feeling
when you heard that they got the guy that shot you--
the kid that shot you
and what happened to him immediately after?
We see it in your face, and we all feel like we know you
'cause you've let us into your life,
but what really were you thinking there?
You must have been a wealth of emotions, I would imagine.
[Claude sighs] - You know, the thing about it is that in those situations,
especially how it happened, it seemed it was so random
and I had no connection to this person.
So you kind of resign yourself to a thought process
that they'll never catch this person.
And especially, all the crimes that were going on.
So, when I got the word that this person confessed,
I knew that I was in a different world.
Like, I knew there was a different path
that I was about to take.
And so, it was shocking,
but when they told me he was 15 and things like that,
then I realized
these kids haven't thought these things out.
this isn't a crime of--
It was just a crime of opportunity,
and it didn't surprise me, but it also shocked me.
I don't know if that really makes sense, but--
- No, it does because I kind of, what you're saying is like,
this is gonna be with me a lot longer now
'cause they got him.
If they didn't get him and he disappeared in the wind,
you might always wonder, but did you feel like
you were gonna be on a longer road then because of that?
- Well, I knew that at that point in time,
we were going to have to start defining
what we mean as "justice" to ourselves,
what we're gonna start doing to
actually incorporate ourselves into this case,
into trying to find out of how he was gonna be punished
and insert ourselves to make sure
that we're represented properly.
And I literally thought to myself,
"Okay, we're about to go to court,"
You know...
But also, you start thinking,
"I'm looking at these pictures and it's just young Black men."
And I knew that there's one of these--
I was just told that one of these Black men
is about to pay a crime
and maybe go to prison for what he had to do.
And so, you're relieved that you're gonna get,
you know you're gonna go through the court system
and get justice for the harm that was to you,
but on a bigger picture, another Black man is lost.
And so you kinda feel about that.
- And watching the film with your struggles as a teen,
I'm sure instantly you could put yourself there almost
and say, "Well, I made, I went this way.
This kid, Nathan, went this way."
I mean, that must be playing with your emotions, too
and ripping you apart inside.
- Absolutely, absolutely.
Because the thing about it is, is that,
like I said before, I have family friends
that have been in these situations,
been on both sides of the guns,
so I have friends that was in prison at that moment,
that I grew up with.
So you know that we're talking about someone
that's going into a system that has,
and it's not gonna be a kind system for them.
- Pete: Right.
- And they have a long road ahead of them.
But I also know that I had a long road ahead of me
because I had a lot of healing to do,
and, at the time, you'll see through the movie,
I do change, but at that time, I was angry,
and I was mad, and I really wanted justice.
- Yeah.
Brad, is it hard as a filmmaker--
You know, I can't even imagine trying to get
a Milwaukee police detective to talk on camera,
The release forms or the insurance you must have to have!
Are they hesitant to talk to you
or is it, because of your resume,
and you've made some award- winning films, does that help?
How do you get these people on camera
to talk about such a touchy subject?
- Hmm, that's an interesting question.
I think it was a combination of,
one, is that I've been in Milwaukee a long time,
so it's a small town really.
- Pete: Yeah.
- And people know each other.
So, I knew the Chief Assistant DA.
He was really helpful.
I actually knew the judge in the juvenile case.
He was really kind and open to us filming.
And I think the other thing is that,
when you're in a story, you're in that world with everyone.
Claude, me, Kim, Claude's wife.
Claude's wife, by the way, is also an attorney.
She knew a lot of the people in the criminal justice system,
but you're also in it together.
So, the DA involved in the case
and the different people who were involved,
we're kind of all traveling the same journey together,
so they're pretty comfortable,
as long as they know what we're doing is for real.
- Yeah.
- And that we can present ourselves
as people who can earn their trust,
then usually it works out.
- And it appears to have worked out.
Let's take another look at a clip
from When Claude Got Shot.
[woman announcing the charges]
- At 37th and Burleigh Street, attempted to drive...
- Victoria Davison: I really don't feel like a hero.
I think the police think that maybe I showed bravery
because 'cause I didn't become a victim,
but I do feel like a victim.
And I broke one of those nursing oaths to do no harm.
Like, I did do harm to him.
I could have possibly killed somebody's 15-year-old son,
somebody who's only two years older than our oldest son.
Hey.
- Child: I got my hat back.
- You got your hat back? - Yeah.
- Okay, good job.
- Victoria's Mom: How you doing? - Good!
- You know how to do that? - Mm-hmm.
- Victoria: Do you have any homework?
- Kid: No.
- You have your colors and your number of the week?
- I don't have any homework. Okay.
Don't pull that, please.
- Janine Lee: It's just hard
seeing my daughter go through all these changes
that she has went through.
She's not this happy-go-lightly person.
She's just like this all the time,
tense-- that's what it is: tense.
The boys, they used to go outside all the time
and she used to sit outside and they'd be playing,
and now, she's in.
Or if she's not, my son-in-law, he's out with her
because she's not by herself at all, ever.
- So, I mean,
you can't even write drama like this.
Victoria shoots Nathan just a few days
after Claude was shot by Nathan
and she feels guilty 'cause she took the nurses' oath
and never wants to bring harm to another human being,
even though she's defending herself.
The whole movie is like that.
You have thoughtful characters,
people reflecting, and these issues are so complicated.
You can't-- you didn't write these characters, Brad.
You take a leap of faith
and hope that what you get from people is great, and it is.
Can you talk about that process
and how it unfolds as a director
and what you're thinking as it unfolds?
- Sure.
You know, I think in documentary,
there's two sort of important things around that.
One is, to the extent that you can, quote-unquote casting,
but really finding people who have an interesting story
to share and are willing to do it
and are going on a journey.
This was kind of automatic
because it just was circumstance that happened right away.
And, like I mentioned,
Claude and I were already connected as friends.
- Pete: Right.
- So, there wasn't really a casting process.
But then the other thing is just really listening
to the characters or the subjects or participants,
whatever word you wanna use in your story
and being true to it.
I mean, anytime you try to guide the actions and journey,
in some kind of forceful way,
it is inevitably not going to work,
but when you just stay open and listen
and see where it takes you,
it's always gonna be more interesting.
- Okay, let's explore that, though.
Have you ever been in a situation where you're letting it unfold
and you just aren't getting anything?
[Brad laughs]
You're like almost resigned to a reality TV producer.
You're like, "Hey, why don't you do get a--"
I don't know.
Do you ever have to kind of coax the characters
into something or have you ever been in that situation?
- I mean, this is probably a longer conversation
than we have here, but, you know,
documentary is on a spectrum sometimes.
Like, I just did a Frontline,
it's a very extreme, stringent form of journalism.
Every single picture has to be vetted,
making sure that we never take anything outta time context,
much less any other context.
There's other films-- not When Claude Got Shot--
but there's other films
where you have a little bit more creative license.
- Pete: Okay.
- And, I would say, though, in answer to your question,
no, I don't manipulate people.
Sometimes, we follow more than the stories
that appear in the film and we've dropped stories.
I have a very funny story about that.
Once is I made a film called Almost Home,
also for public television years ago,
Wisconsin Public Television
was actually the executive producer,
and it followed a nursing home and we were following,
I think, five different stories,
but we ended up with three
and this one woman said to me, one day, she said,
"I notice you don't follow me anymore."
And I said, "Oh, yeah, we're sort of adjusting
how we're telling the story."
And she's like,
"You were following me 'cause you thought I was gonna die.
And I got better."
[Pete and Brad laugh] - Wow!
- And we both had a little bit of a laugh,
but it's true.
I mean we were interested in seeing what
the story would be with her family if she had passed away.
She got better and so, good for her, but--
- Kind of a happy ending even though...
[man laughs] - Yeah, exactly.
- I didn't mean to insinuate you would ever manipulate footage.
I just-- - No, but I know what you mean.
You have an urge sometimes to say like,
"What can't you just guys get together
or do this dramatic thing or move a little faster but--"
- Yeah.
- I don't know, maybe as I get older, I get more patient.
- There you go. [men laugh]
Let's see another clip from When Claude Got Shot.
- You wanna say something, Nathan?
- Well, I do apologize for what I did,
I put you through, your family.
I want to let them know that I'm sorry for what I did.
- I appreciate that, man.
I forgive you, too, you know, I do.
I see you, you know, you are kid, man, at 15.
You was a baby, you know?
So, no, I wouldn't try to hold nothing over you like that.
Go ahead, man, what you wanna say?
- And I plan on paying 'cause I got restitution,
I plan on paying.
It's gonna take a while,
but I plan on paying my restitution so.
[Claude laughs]
- Pay all my bills, man, I wish you.
Yeah, thank you.
[Claude laughs]
Thank you.
But, yeah, you focus on getting better, man.
You focus on getting and doing what you can do.
- And I hope, like, me and you can like develop a relationship
if that's okay with you.
- Might take me a little bit--
- Nathan: Take some time, yeah, that's why, I know.
- It might take some time,
but I definitely won't close that door.
- That's a good answer.
Is the door still open?
Do you have a connection still with Nathan?
- We haven't been able to connect since that,
since that meeting, but the door definitely is still open.
You know, the thing about it is that, once,
I said earlier this story about this, a thing,
it's just not a story about me.
This is a story about hundreds and thousands of people
get shot across this country almost every day.
And this is something to show
how much it affects our community,
the ripple effects of shooting.
It's not just between me and Nathan.
It's between his mother.
It's between my family.
It's between the community, my friends and things like that.
And it shows, you know,
so, I definitely would definitely wanna be open,
'cause I think he has an important message for young people
about the choices to make
and how to redeem yourself in a bad choice, if you make them.
- It seemed like he's done a lot of reflecting
just years ago in that clip.
So, I'm gonna try to squeeze two more questions in here.
- No problem.
- Claude, has this film helped you heal
or prolonged the healing process somehow?
- It definitely has helped me get through tough moments,
talking things out.
You were asking, Brad, about the questions.
Brad has always made me think about what I'm doing,
what we're doing, and put it in a different perspective,
by asking these questions and going through this process.
So, it's definitely, but as for the true healing,
we never know.
I mean PTSD is a very sensitive and hard subject
to actually hold down.
So, who knows, in another 10 years, I might need
to be talked again to somebody
about things that's more intimate, but right now,
this is very healing and fulfilling in my life.
- Pete: Good. - Yeah.
- Brad, so with all your credits and your resume,
and Stanley Nelson, and As Goes Janesville
and all these accomplishments you have,
you finally got to work with Snoop Dogg.
He was an executive producer on this film. [laughing]
Can you talk about his involvement and how he got involved?
Was he involved from the get-go or...?
- Well, it's more of a sort of business relationship.
Yeah, they came on board as the executive producers
to help raise the profile of the film.
He watched the film,
he watched a cut and he liked what he saw.
And so we were lucky enough to be able
to work with Snoop Dogg on it. [Pete laughs]
- That's so great.
Well, I think everybody's gonna like what they see.
And again, they can see it on Independent Lens
as soon as we wrap up this interview,
which, unfortunately, has ended too soon,
'cause I had about a hundred more questions for you guys,
[Brad laughs]
but you guys are great interviews
and your friendship is inspiring
and your collaboration in the film is inspiring.
So, thanks so much for being here, guys.
- Thanks a lot, appreciate it.
- Thank you for having us. - My pleasure.
And thank you for watching Director's Cut.
For more information on When Claude Got Shot,
please go to PBS Wisconsin
and click on Director's Cut.
Also, don't forget to like PBS Wisconsin on Facebook
and follow us on Twitter.
Now stay tuned as Independent Lens presents
When Claude Got Shot
here on PBS Wisconsin, your home for independent film.
We'll see you next time on Director's Cut.
? ?
- Claude: I can't forget where I came from,
but I have to move forward.
Right after I got shot, I went right back
and did my last semester at Charlotte School of Law.
And people, you see this big jaw swelled up,
stitches all through his neck.
And so, I'd have to keep on telling people,
keep on reliving it, keep on being positive.
[serene music]