- The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin, original production.
? ?
- Justine,
what happened today with Brett?
- Look, I really didn't mean to bump into you.
- Justine!
- (sighs) I'm very sorry, Brett.
- Thanks, Justine.
- Mr. Trahern. Ma'am.
- Justine, you need to come right home
after your appointment today.
- Because there's a whole hell of a lot to talk about. - He grabbed me.
- What do you expect?
- That's really--.
- Welcome to Director's Cut.
I'm Pete Schwaba, and we just saw a clip
from the feature film, "The View from Tall,"
the story of a high school girl, trying to get through her senior year
while being ostracized by her family and friends
after she has an affair with her teacher.
I'm joined remotely tonight
by the films co-directors Caitlyn Parrish and Erica Weiss.
Co-directors, welcome to Director's Cut.
- Thank you. - Thank you so much.
- That's great, that we call the show, "Co-directors Cut" tonight
since there's two of you here.
It's very exciting to have you, thanks for being with us.
And under these crazy circumstances of remote interviewing.
So, we really appreciate you being here.
Caitlin, let's start with you.
You wrote this as a play originally.
Can you talk a little bit about where that motivation came from
and where the story comes from?
- Sure. I wrote it the summer after I graduated from high school
and it is not autobiographical much to my parents' delight.
Although I got asked that question a lot
when it had its off-Broadway run, when I was 19.
I was working as a stage manager
and getting ready to go to DePaul as a dramaturgy major.
And I was kind of challenged by one of the actors in the play
I was stage managing, when I was offering comments
and critiques of the script to the director,
that I didn't know how hard it was to write a play
and that I should give it a try if I wanted to express my opinions.
So I did, and more than anything,
I just wanted to write a main character
who had had the same kind of isolated high school
experience that I'd had,
and weirdly asexual high school experience
in that I was categorized as either a lesbian or tall.
It had to be one or the other, but either way,
just in some ways, unapproachable,
or invisible to guys.
And I wanted her to be witty and strong
and to have a controversial life
and walk away unpunished,
as opposed to most female protagonists
that we see in sexual situations, particularly at that age.
- So, unapproachable by high school guys.
Congratulations for that. That had to be exciting. - Thank you.
- Let's see another clip from "The View from Tall."
- [Douglas] Been a few weeks, things any better at school?
- [Justine] Nope.
- Has it always been bad at school?
- Yup.
- How bad?
- What's your most prized possession?
- These.
My father's, they're from when he got married.
- Would you be upset if something happened to them?
- To put a mildly.
- My mother gave me my grandmother's hardback edition
of Pride and Prejudice when I was 10.
On the first day of middle school
she put it in my backpack and told me not to take it out,
but if somebody hurt my feelings,
I could just remember that it was there.
She used to do things like that.
I know everything in class on the first day,
so I take it out a few times and read my favorite parts.
It has a blue binding with silver lettering.
As school's ending,
I go to the bathroom before getting on the bus.
There are three other girls in the bathroom,
one of whom went to grade school with me, Megan.
She asked me what I've been reading all day.
I tell her all about the book.
For a full minute I talk about how much I love it.
She says she'd like to hold it.
I hand it to her.
Do you see where this is going?
I ask for it back.
She says she'll give it back to me tomorrow.
I can't let her borrow it. It's special.
It's just a book.
I try to grab it, the other two girls hold me back.
Then I watch her tear each page out of it
and flush them down a toilet.
- Erica, you both have a theater background,
but you are as I understand more of a theater director.
How different is it directing theater
from a feature length film
and what adjustments do you have to make?
- You know, yeah, my background was all in theater
and it wasn't until Caitlin and I made this movie
that I really ever worked on a set.
And the first thing that I realized
in all of my questions about that very thing,
whether or not it would translate,
because it is such a different process.
You're not working linearly.
You're not really rehearsing, you're just, you know,
you're getting these pieces and knowing
that you're going to be able to put them together.
Once they kind of clicked for me:
Oh, it's all storytelling. It's just in a different order.
It's a little bit like having tech rehearsals
before you do anything else
and then going back into rehearsals
when you're in post-production.
Once I was able to just rearrange the pieces
and fall back on my instincts as a storyteller,
it all really made sense.
But also, co-directing is very different
than what I do in theater as a solo director.
But luckily my co-director is someone
who I have now worked with
for the better part of the last 19 years,
and nobody knew our vision and the story like we did.
And, you know, nobody knows me like Caitlin, and vice versa.
So we were able to be in a groove
that really helped make the process
(indistinct) for both of us,
because we could pass the baton so easily
knowing that we were on the same page.
- Let's stay on that subject then.
So Caitlin, this is your material.
Was it strange co-directing something you wrote.
And I know you guys have been friends forever
and worked as partners forever, but what was that like,
as co-directors?
- I'm going to give you a very boring answer
and echo what Erica said, it was pretty seamless.
I think that, I think the fact
that whenever she had directed my plays as a solo director,
I'd still always been in the rehearsal room for those plays.
I'd still always contributed after the script was written.
I'd still always worked hand in hand with her
to revise the plays and work with the actors
as we were developing a piece for theater.
So it really just translated that process onto a film set.
And I also think it helps that when we cast the film,
we were lucky enough to be using the Chicago Talent Pool
which is deep and filled with many people
that we'd worked with in theater for the better part of a decade at that point.
So there was also a shorthand, not just with each other,
but with the bulk of the people that we were directing.
- You guys are doing my segues for me here.
Let's stick with that, then the talent, I want to ask you,
and Caitlin I'll stay with you on this, because you said
it was kind of loosely based on your own person.
The Justine actor, she's 17.
Is it difficult casting someone to play a 17-year-old girl?
Would you actually cast a 17-year-old girl,
or is it typically someone always older?
Was that a tough search to find her?
- I think because of the sexual content of this piece,
I would feel very--
I would be very wary about casting anyone
who wasn't actually an adult.
I would not feel comfortable putting a minor in those situations.
I don't think it would be responsible
as a director or a writer.
And I don't know that by casting a minor,
you're getting anything in terms of performance that's to your advantage.
I actually think if you're casting an adult
who has been in those situations
responsibly with a sense of agency for herself,
you're going to have a much more nuanced conversation and performance
than you would with a person who might not have--
who was hopefully never been in those situations.
So no, and when we cast Amanda Drinkall,
I will admit that casting Justine
was much cloudier for me than it was for Erica,
because in writing the play,
I'd had my own speech rhythms in mind
for the performance for a really, really long time.
And Amanda Drinkall, obviously made the character
very much herself and very much not me.
And when we were looking at the various actresses
I think I had a bit of a blind spot,
looking for someone who was similar to me.
And I think it was Erica who quite rightly said,
"No, no, no, no, Amanda Drinkall is a genius, and she's the one we have to pick."
And I was absolutely on board
and only grew happier day by day,
watching Amanda Drinkall make it her own, because she was wonderful.
- That's a great answer.
Let's see another clip from "The View from Tall."
- I'd like to talk about Jason.
- Okay.
- [Douglas] Are you in love with him?
- I miss him.
- [Douglas] Do you trust him?
- Yeah.
- Why?
- What, I shouldn't trust you?
- I told you anything you tell me
will be kept in confidence.
- You talk with my dad every time I come here.
- He's concerned about you.
- He's a prick.
And my mom only cares about what I eat.
- So, tell me about it.
- Oh, an upper-middle-class bitch has lousy parents.
Holy shxx, call FEMA.
- I can help...
if you let me.
- I don't know you.
- You can ask me a question.
- Do you have a girlfriend?
- I do not have a girlfriend.
- Boyfriend?
- No, not gay.
- My father thinks you are.
- No, not gay, just crippled.
Not answering questions about that.
You said you miss him.
What do you miss?
- He made me feel good.
Is your father dead?
- Why?
- You have his cuff links.
- Couple of years ago.
- How?
- He killed himself
by drinking a bottle of whiskey laced with bleach.
- Why?
- He didn't say.
- Erica, let's stay with cast.
One more time here, you guys have such--
You did such a good job casting.
As a director, what's it like when you see the actors
you found for this little indie
go on and do bigger things and have big network credits
like, it's Michael Patrick Thornton and Carolyn Braver,
they've gone on and got some pretty big credits
that I saw on IMDb, is that rewarding as an actor?
And do you-- Does it make it easier to cast them again
or to recommend them? What's that like?
- Well, I have to say that Michael Patrick Thornton
is basically our muse.
I mean, we write stuff for Michael
in kind of everything that we do.
And the great part about Mike in this role,
the play,
that version of the story,
Douglas, the character, was not a wheelchair user,
was not disabled.
And we did a reading of the play
with the theater company in Chicago,
the Gift Theater, where I'm an ensemble member
and Michael is the artistic director
and he read the role of Douglas.
And that was actually the impetus for us
to adapt it into a screenplay and to make the movie,
was realizing that Michael in that role
was kind of the missing piece that was going to
open up the story in a way that was so exciting
and thrilling and make it something really unique.
So, that role was written for him.
And the story
just benefited so much from having him in that role.
And Carrie Braver,
who is also-- I call her an acting monster.
I just think she's amazing and ferocious.
She had had very little on camera experience
when she came in for the role, but she was undeniable.
And her dynamic with Amanda was also so exciting,
because they're so different, they have such different energies
which was perfect for the two sisters.
Nothing makes us happier
than seeing the people that we worked with,
especially on this tiny little indie movie,
go on to have successful careers.
It is the most rewarding and it's also really rewarding
when we can participate in that, since we were able to write another role for Michael
when we went on to make our first TV show.
And getting to have him as a series regular,
it was, I mean, it was the best. It's the best feeling.
I love seeing people succeed from Chicago in general,
but especially our pool.
- Okay. So Caitlin, let's kind of segue into
when you write these characters
and Michael played--
He's very low key, and I love the nuances and subtleties
of his performance are great.
But Amanda and your characters are just not cookie cutter.
Like, you know, you root for them
and then you kinda go, "Oh, they're their own worst enemy."
I love complex characters like that.
When you're writing, do you give a test to tell
if a character is too unlikable or should I reel that back?
How do you gauge that when you're writing?
- No, likability is not really the main concern.
And especially as I've gotten more experienced writing television and film.
It seems to be a huge concern for a lot of executives.
Is this character likable?
And at the end of the day, I think worrying
if a character is likable underestimates the audience.
I think that it's more important
for a character to be explicable.
Even if they're doing unlikeable things,
do we understand why they're doing those unlikable things,
and do we understand their humanity?
I think that... There's a test that Erica came up with
when we were working on a play called "A Twist of Water,"
where if two characters are having an argument,
are they both right and are they both wrong?
And if that is the case, then the scene is what it needs to be.
And I think that that's followed, that's carried through.
Whenever possible make it clear
that each character is right about some stuff and wrong about some stuff,
because that's mostly how we operate in life.
It doesn't really exist on a black and white binary
of good people versus bad people,
and I think that kind of storytelling is boring.
And I think isn't what we're looking for today.
And I also, I just think that I owe my characters
more than, you're wrong, or you're unlikable,
or you're right, or you're perfectly good hero.
I just think that we're all more complicated than that.
- Well said. Let's see another clip from "The View from Tall."
- Two shots of bourbon and some bitters.
- But this sounds like a Manhattan. - It's almost like a Manhattan
but it's made with maple syrup, the real stock.
- Well, speaking of which...
- [Mr. Trahern] All right go get it.
And how's that bathroom coming along?
- [Mrs. Fisher] We changed our minds with the color.
(bourbon splashing)
- Hey, Justine.
- Hey, Mr. Fisher.
- You, ah... mind if I enjoy the quiet with you?
(voices mumbling in the background)
So, I hear you're, ah,
trading the snow for the rain this fall.
- Yeah, seemed like a step up.
- You know, I spend a lot of time in Seattle actually.
It's fun.
Yeah.
You need any recommendations, I could give you a list.
- Sure.
- I'll buy you a drink next time I'm in town.
- Oh, you don't have to do that.
- Happy to, happy to.
And some place quiet, you know. - Why?
You want to get to know me? - Absolutely.
I have always thought
that you were a very precocious person.
(voices mumbling in the background)
- I feel bad for your wife.
- I don't think I like what you're implying.
- And my father wouldn't like what you're implying.
(voices mumbling in the background)
- I think your father knows which one of us he can trust.
- So you have Justine entering these dates in her diary.
And I saw that Valentine's Day was one of them.
And I started to think
maybe there's some significance to these dates
so I looked, and January 5th is National Screenwriters Day.
So I thought, "Okay, maybe they're doing something here."
April 4th, is the day Roger Ebert died,
but then I got to I think it was the March date
and it was National Dadgum That's Good Day.
And that kind of blew my theory out of the water,
so I assume that's when everybody has Portillo's and talks about it.
But were there significant dates?
I'm always trying to get inside the writer or director's head.
Let's go to Caitlin for that one.
- You have been looking for far more sophisticated hints
(Pete laughs)
than we were putting into the script.
I give you a lot of credit, Pete.
No, the dates were primarily just the demarcation of time
and letting us see how the relationship
between primarily Justine and Douglas was developing.
I think Valentine's Day might've been significant,
because we wanted to be in her mindset
for her first Valentine's Day without the teacher,
Jason, in her life.
But other than that, I'm sorry to say
all of your sleuthing was for not, I apologize.
- I'm trying to find conspiracy everywhere.
Erica, so you have this scene,
I want to ask you, as an actor, I've done an intimate scene
and it's a little uncomfortable,
but I found that when you do that
the people around the actors seem more uncomfortable.
As a female director,
what do you bring to a scene like that
that a male director might not bring?
- Well, I actually think the most significant development
in that regard has happened since we've made the movie.
And that's the introduction of intimacy directors,
intimacy coordinators, into the storytelling experience,
something that now having worked with one
on a couple of projects, both in theater
and on "The Red Line," the TV show, I would never go back.
So, if we were to make this movie again,
I think that would have been a different process
having an intimacy coordinator as a part of that.
That being said,
I think because Caitlin and I are so sensitive
to the idea of being really responsible to everyone's comfort
and not just the actress, but also the male actor,
you know, the storytelling
in those intimate moments is,
you know, is tinged and fraught
with an inappropriate age difference.
And it's, you know, in some ways
atypical of what we usually show on screen.
The things that we really thought about were, what is the gaze?
You know, you hear a lot about that male gaze question.
For us, it was really a matter of whose experience
do we want to be inside for this storytelling.
We want to be with them, not watching them.
We want to understand
what is feeling good and right to them.
In some ways it makes the audience more uncomfortable
if they have to grapple with how happy
in some ways this has making the characters.
- [Pete] Right.
- You know, 'cause then it makes it harder to write off.
But for us, the idea of just protecting our cast,
making sure that they knew that they were safe
and that they were not being judged or leered at,
or making any of us uncomfortable,
was the most important part of that experience.
It was awkward and, you know,
and tricky for different people,
but that ethos really carries through just in the way that we wanted the actors to feel.
And also, you set an example for the rest of your crew
when you make that a priority. - [Pete] Right.
- It really does trickle down from the top, and I think that makes a huge difference.
It's not that I don't think male directors are capable of that,
but I think that it's only getting better
with now, the idea of an intimacy coordinator, or intimacy director,
being a part of that storytelling process,
which I love and I'm not remotely precious about.
I would happily continue to work like that
rather than kinda feel it out, like Caitlin and I were doing.
- We have one on the set here and it's just me,
so I agree that intimacy coordinators, that's where it's at.
Let's see our final clip from "The View from Tall."
(crickets chirping)
- I'm glad I kissed you. - [Douglas] Justine.
- We're just talking.
- I don't want to talk about this.
- As long as we're in the car, let's be honest.
(crickets chirping)
- Just talking.
- Have you thought about me?
- Yes.
- I've thought about you.
I wondered if it had been a while for you.
If...
in a world where we slept together...
if you would be really hungry...
or...
restrained.
Which would you be with me?
- How do you know how to ask questions like that?
- It's just what I think about.
- Which would you want me to be?
- I would just want you.
- My last question, I'll just--
Let's wrap up with Caitlin, what's it like?
You guys have gone on to some really big things right now.
How is that different than working on a film,
a small film with a small budget, like "The View from Tall?"
Is it more frustrating, more satisfying?
Run with it.
- I think there are pros and cons to either approach.
I think that the bigger a project is,
the more masters you have to serve there are.
If you have corporate partners that's obviously very different
from working on a small indie film,
but I do think that on whatever project we choose
in whatever medium, with however big a budget we have,
we do at least have control over ourselves
and the work culture that we dictate.
And I think that we've still managed
to make our projects a really happy safe place for people to work.
And that's ultimately what's most important to us.
- Excellent, well said. It's been great having both of you here.
Continued success, and please come back.
Make another film so we can have you back here and maybe we'll do an hour or something,
so I can get to the 80 more questions I had for you guys.
Thanks very much. - Thank you.
- And thank you for watching "Director's Cut."
For more information on "The View from Tall,"
please go to pbswisconsin.org and click on Director's Cut.
While you're there, send us an email and find out how to submit a film.
Also don't forget to like PBS Wisconsin
on Facebook or follow us on Twitter.
I just want to say that the word "tall"
oftentimes makes people nervous, but I just want to let everybody know
that people of all shapes and sizes will enjoy this film.
It tested really well with the morbidly obese.
We'll see you next time on "Director's Cut."
? ?
- Hi, Paula.
Who?
Who is this?
Text me the address.
I have to go.
- What's wrong?
(loud upbeat music) (no dialog can be heard)
(fist thudding) (upbeat music)
(air whooshing)
- You come near my sister again, I will murder you.
(helmet clattering) (upbeat music continues)