- The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
[funky music]
- Ginger Voiceover: Now, it feels like the person I was
is a long lost friend.
Yeah,
I lost her,
but maybe if I can put my life back together,
I'll find her again.
Or, maybe I'll find someone
I like a little better.
[dramatic Director's Cut theme music]
- Welcome to Director's Cut.
We just saw a clip from the very poignant drama, Ginger,
a film that takes viewers on an emotional journey
through the story's title character, Ginger,
as she battles breast cancer.
I'm joined tonight by the film's co-director,
Jimmy Boratyn.
Jimmy, welcome to Director's Cut.
- Jimmy: Thank you.
It's great to be here.
- When we initially booked you on this show
pre- global pandemic,
your wife, and the film's co-director, Melissa,
was scheduled to be here with you
and she has since passed away.
Can you just tell us, right from the start,
a little bit about what that experience is like
making a movie with her and not having her here
to talk about it with you?
- Yeah, well, it's still a pretty new experience.
Because of the pandemic,
there haven't been a lot of interviews going on.
So she passed away back in June,
and, you know, it's tough,
because she was the heart and soul of this story,
and trying to really impart what she had hoped
and all of her aspirations for this film,
it's a daunting challenge, but one I hope to accomplish.
- Yeah, you have a really interesting moment in the first,
I would say, eight minutes of the film,
where Ginger's friend, Bree, says to her,
"If you're still working here in 10 years, I'll kill you,"
and Ginger says, "Yeah, that would suck,"
and I'm just curious, was that written in purposefully,
as foreshadowing,
to give perspective retrospectively?
- You know, a little bit.
I think a lot of why that came to be part of the script
was a big chunk of this was actual experiences Melissa had.
We dramatized it, we added some quirky comedy,
but that, in particular, Melissa was...
She was working at a coffee shop at the time,
and she was very content,
though she had a passion for filmmaking,
but it was one of those things where she had a friend,
Thurza, who really pushed her,
and we wanted to really build on that relationship
to just show that it's more than just one person
who goes through a cancer diagnosis.
- Yeah, that's a great answer,
and I only noticed that on the second viewing.
I was like, "Oh, wow, I wonder if that was..."
'Cause it is a thing people say,
"If you're still here in 10 years, I'll kill you.
Follow your dreams,"
but not realizing what she was about to be up against.
Very interesting point in the story.
Let's see another clip from Ginger.
[doorbell buzzing]
[doorbell buzzing many times]
- Hello? - Oh, now you answer!
Listen here! - Mom?
- Mom: Do you want to tell me why the hell I got a phone call
from a hospital about coverage for a mammogram?!
- Wait, just give me, like, one second.
Oh, my God, Jesus Christ.
[train passing nearby]
Did you do something with your hair?
It looks bigger.
- Ginger, cut the ####.
I am going to need you to text me the names of your doctors.
We are going to get ahead of this thing.
- What is there to get ahead of, Mom?
- You hungry?
I am going to make you something to eat.
- Of course you are, and you're going to go into the kitchen,
and then you're going to touch my things,
and then you're going to be like, "This food isn't healthy,"
And then I'm going to be like, "I know, Mom,
why do you think I like it?"
- I have a friend at work. - Oh, you have a friend?
How nice.
- She is staying away from gluten.
I really think that that's something you ought to try.
They say that gluten is the new smoking.
Oh, my God, you don't smoke, do you?
- Oh, my God, Mom, just stop, just please stop, please.
Just please, just get out of my kitchen.
Just stop.
I'm fine.
- Fine.
How's the job hunt going?
- Oh, my God.
- Welcome back, talking with Jimmy Boratyn,
the co-director of the film, Ginger.
Jimmy, this is an autobiographical film from Melissa.
You touched on this a little bit in the intro,
but how much of Ginger's experience
was similar to Melissa's experience?
- You know, I'd say a lot of the key moments,
the elements of friendship, job, family,
all of that was from real life.
It was the--
You know, the quirkiness that Ginger has is a little bit more
than Melissa had.
She definitely was a quirky person,
but I'd say it's like 60/40
of reality to just drama and comedy.
- Yeah, you directed another film called The Giggles.
- Oh, yeah.
- I saw that in your bio,
where it looked like you were the sole director,
and Ginger, you co-directed with Melissa.
Talk a little bit about, if you will, that experience,
directing something by yourself
as to working with a co-director,
and then, also, directing something with your wife.
How different were those experiences?
- Yeah, so when we were making The Giggles,
Melissa and I were dating,
and she was the editor and she helped out a lot on set,
but really, at the end of the day,
she was telling me what to do anyway.
[Pete laughs]
- Pete: A lot of editors will do that. [laughs]
- Yeah, yeah, so co-directing was a little bit different,
but really, we met in film school,
we went to grad school together, we ran a business together,
we did all these things together, so collaborating,
a lot of it was like a 'hive mind' scenario,
where we knew what the other one was thinking,
and when one of us got stuck, the other one could step in
and say, "I think this could solve our problems,"
so that really helped us a lot on set, I think.
Also Melissa was-- on our second day of casting,
Melissa got diagnosed Stage IV.
When we wrote this,
it was early stage and we didn't think
it was going to be a lifelong battle for her,
so it ended up being one of those things,
where she was going to treatment,
and though she never missed a day on set,
she definitely had days
where she would come straight from chemo,
and if we had to get started, or if chemo ran late,
I picked up the reins and kept the movie going.
- That's interesting.
So, you guys--
or Melissa and a co-writer, started writing the script
really before she had gone through this whole experience,
other than the initial diagnosis?
- Yeah, actually, if you get a chance to read
the original script, it was a lot more lighthearted.
It had a lot more...
a lot more elements of comedy than drama.
And then, when she was diagnosed Stage IV,
just a lot of these feelings came out,
and we have already had a pretty solid script,
but she sat down and rewrote
a lot of the movie.
I think a lot of the voiceovers that you see in the movie
are...
are things she wrote after becoming Stage IV
and having just a very different outlook on life
and of a terminal cancer diagnosis.
- Let's talk about casting for a minute, Jimmy.
You mentioned you find actors anywhere,
but in a city like Chicago,
you're really spoiled for choice.
It's such a great theater town, so many actors.
What was that process like?
Did you have to turn great actors away or was it like,
oh, my gosh, who are we going to get to find--
to fill this role?
Can you talk about that a little bit?
- Yeah, we definitely had to turn away
some amazing actors and actresses.
Chicago, with Second City and the Improv Olympics
and all the great theater companies out there we have,
like you said, we're just spoiled, and Johnny Woj,
our producer, came from a casting agency background,
so he kind of ran it really, really well,
but I think we underestimated how many people
would be excited to work on a film like this.
We had something like 500 people audition
and there were just so many people that we had to...
Me and Melissa, in the back of our minds, we were like,
"Yeah, okay, we're gonna keep a note of this person,
"'cause they just nailed it,
"but there just happened to be someone who's that much closer
to perfection," and it was a really great opportunity.
- How long did that process take, start to finish,
for the casting?
- We cast over three days in person,
and then, Johnny really dedicated himself,
and I can't imagine how many hours he went through
tapes that were submitted and all that kind of stuff.
- I would imagine when you have a name like Johnny Woj,
you pretty much have to be in show business.
- Yeah, right?
Yeah, he definitely looks like Mr. Hollywood too.
- [laughs] That's great.
Let's see another clip from Ginger.
- So...
you gonna tell me what happened?
- Sure,
um...
I wrote it down.
I...
They told me to so I did.
Mm...
There are...
lots of terms that I
didn't really get.
Um...
[whispers] Big words.
Uh...
She said it was uh...
definitely cancer.
Uh... I... I...
I need surgery.
Uh, she said that.
She said I need surgery
and she, uh...
she gave me a name of a doctor to call.
Uh,
so I gotta do that.
- Why the #### did this happen over the phone?
- Uh, she has to go on vacation.
[suppressed crying]
She wanted to tell me before she left 'cause
[crying]
apparently this thing is time sensitive.
You know?
It's kinda funny, though, right?
To think about doctors
on the beach and stuff.
Like, that's weird.
She's probably wearing a bikini now or something weird.
[sniffle] You know, like, ah!
Like...
[paper crumpling]
- Jimmy, you touched on this before.
You do have a lot of comedy in the film.
Can you talk a little bit about the balance
you have to strike?
You have pretty heavy subject matter here,
but you do have comedy.
How, as a director, do you know when to infuse some comedy
and when not to?
- Yeah, well, this one was pretty easy.
When you have such a heavy subject matter, like cancer,
you can never really throw in too much comedy, I feel like,
but at the same time, while we were going through this,
especially when we were so young,
and Melissa was diagnosed at 23,
there were moments that were just comical.
There's a lot of sadness and a lot of isolation,
but also moments of just like, wow,
this is actually how it works.
This is what happens when you get diagnosed with cancer.
Also, just doctors being confused
about how things affect somebody who's so young,
especially coming straight out of college.
So, I think we were always trying to find
more humor to add,
but the balance really came from Susan Gordon,
who played Ginger.
She came into auditions and we just knew, when we met her,
she had this quirky personality and she had this ability
to make light and joke about a subject matter
that a lot of the people we auditioned shied away from,
especially when you're auditioning in front of somebody
who actually has cancer,
to make a joke about living with it.
That's not something that comes easy to a lot of people,
so I think Susan really helped add that level of quirkiness
and comedy that we wanted.
- Did you know her before she auditioned?
- No, actually, we got really lucky with Susan,
'cause we put up casting calls all over
and we did all the casting ourselves,
and one of our producers, Johnny,
just happened to put up a flyer
that we were doing open casting at a Whole Foods,
where Susan Gordon happened to be working, and she was like,
"Oh, I'm not going to audition for that,"
and her friend convinced her to do it,
and the rest is history.
- She saw the quinoa cake
and then jumped into the auditioning chair.
Good for her and lucky for you.
Shooting in a big city like Chicago, in my experience,
there's a small town shooting, there's a big city shooting.
It seems like people in small towns bend over backwards
to help, 'cause it's something new to them, it's cool.
In a big city, you have people who are jaded,
don't want to be inconvenienced by movie shooting,
they're just kind of hip to the whole thing.
Was it difficult shooting in Chicago, from picking sets,
getting deals, spending more money
as an indie film producer.
What was that experience like?
- Yeah, you're definitely onto something.
I remember doing a short film in a small town in Michigan,
and literally, we picked up the phone
and we called the mayor and he answered, and he was like,
"Oh, you want to close down the street?
Yeah, go for it."
But the big city, I think filming in Chicago,
it wasn't a hindrance.
I think things cost a little bit more here and there
but because of the subject matter,
because of what we were trying to accomplish with this film,
trying to send a message of hope
and build community around something
that impacts millions of people,
I think there was a lot of people in the community,
who wanted to help, who wanted to be a part of this,
and they made the film special and made it possible,
even on our shoestring budget.
- Yeah, you have characters in the film
being pretty insensitive to Ginger.
Was that Melissa's experience?
Unknowingly, at times, maybe even?
- Yeah, there were definitely some.
I'd say most of the people, most of the time,
people were pretty positive and pretty supportive,
but when she was first diagnosed,
she happened to be working at that coffee shop I mentioned,
and yeah, she gets off the phone, she's in tears,
and her boss just asked her,
"Well, it's not like you can't work, right?"
- Oh, my Gosh. - And that was the day
Melissa quit and started working full time with me
at our company, so it was...
- Pete: Wow.
- I think it's not malicious.
I think there's just a lot of people out there
who don't know what to say,
and sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth.
- Sure, great answer.
Let's see another clip from Ginger.
- Hey, Ginger, I'm at the bar around the corner here,
so why don't you come down and have a drink?
- I can't.
- Oh, okay,
you want to try and hang out next week then?
- I don't know, Ben.
Why don't you tell me?
- What? - I'm turning over a new leaf,
you know. - Ginger, are you okay?
- Ben, you're awesome,
literally the coolest person I've ever met,
other than myself,
but I just found out I have cancer.
- Hold on, holy ####!
- Listen, Ben, I'm gonna go back to eating my feelings now.
And...
Hey, Cosmo, do you wanna order some pizza?
Yeah, probably just gonna do that, Ben.
- Ginger, wait, hold on. - Bye.
[doorbell ringing]
Who is it?
- Hey, Ginger, it's Ben.
I thought you could use some company,
so I brought someone that I'd like you to meet.
Dog...
Speak. - [dog barking]
? I've had enough of this day ?
? It seems to me that everything has come so fast these days ?
So you wanna talk about it?
- No, I'm kinda doing this thing
where I'm repressing my feelings.
You're like, "Hi, Ginger," and I'm like, "Why?"
? I think it's time to get out of my everyday life ?
- Welcome back to Director's Cut.
We're talking with Jimmy Boratyn,
the co-director of Ginger.
Jimmy, at one point, I noticed that Ginger,
your lead actress, let's talk about her again,
Susan Gordon is in, I think, every scene in the movie,
if I remember correctly,
or it seemed like it when I was watching it.
How challenging is that?
It's really a question for her, I would imagine,
but how challenging was that for her and how do you,
knowing you have to find an actress
to carry an entire movie,
how do you decide that in one audition
or maybe one with a callback?
- Yeah, we did do callbacks.
We did do a few, but Susan just nailed it from the start.
I think we had an idea of what we wanted.
I think, in hindsight,
we probably would have written a few scenes
where Susan's not in it, to give her a break here or there,
but she is such a pro and she took everything so seriously.
She spent hours and hours working with Melissa,
to just get in the mindset
and in the frame of what it's like to be living with cancer,
and to make sure that every scene
in the film would resonate, and I think there were scenes
that were definitely intimidating to her.
There's a head shave scene that's pretty emotional
for anybody who would have taken that part, but Susan,
I remember she had notebooks this thick,
filled with notes and thoughts and ideas
on how the character can go, and we would do rehearsals,
but I can't say enough for how well Susan
just stepped into the role
and dedicated herself to being the best possible performer
she could be in this movie.
- Yeah, there was a lot there for an actor to work on.
- And she's so young, too.
- Is she? - She was 21 when we cast her.
- Oh, my gosh, wow,
so I want to move to music.
Similar to comedy,
I remember watching indie films 25 years ago,
or when I was in college,
and just thinking, "Oh, the music is awful."
Now, just like with access to good cameras
being so much cheaper than it was,
it seems like I'm seeing a lot more great music
in indie films.
Is it easier to find music now,
because there's so many people that want to be discovered
or how did you go about finding good music for Ginger?
- Yeah, so a big chunk of our budget went towards
our sound design and our music,
and a lot of it is that, well, at this point,
we had been doing marketing videos for about five, six years
to our company,
and we had found some really great stock libraries,
and I've noticed, from a lot of the musicians I know,
that creating stock music and putting it out there
for people to purchase and use, it's become more mainstream,
and something that's really a lot easier
to find quality material,
and so it was a lot
of searching through libraries
and libraries of stuff.
Melissa had originally cut the film to music,
'cause that's how she liked to do it.
She liked to find a rhythm,
so there was things like Lady Gaga in there,
and I was like, "Yeah, well, we ain't gonna afford Lady Gaga,"
but then we went back and we searched some libraries
and found some great music to work with.
- It's incredible.
Honestly, this was revelatory for me,
when I was watching this, because I'm like, man.
I know you didn't have a $20 million budget,
but I'm like-- back in the day,
it's like the director would be like,
"I did the music myself."
I'm like, yeah, well, maybe you shouldn't have, but now,
it's incredible, the music that's available
to indie filmmakers, so that's great and well done,
but let's see another clip from Ginger.
- Hey, look who finally made it out of bed.
- Hi.
[TV in background]
- Hey, did you...
eat the last of the coconut gelato?
- Yeah, sorry,
it's the only thing that would settle my stomach,
so I ate it.
So...
- I was looking forward to this all day.
This is the fancy #### that costs extra at the store!
- Sorry, Bree, I'll buy you some more.
All right?
####!
- When?!
When, when, when, when are you gonna buy me more, huh?
Because, to me,
it looks like you're just gonna sit on your ass
in front of my TV all day like you do every day.
- Okay, Bree, you're being ridiculous right now.
- [scoffs] I'm being ridiculous?
- Ginger: Yeah. - You know what?
You're right, you're right.
I am for putting up with you and all of your ####### ####.
- God, you're insane. - I'm insane?!
I'M INSANE?!
You know what?
You're right, you're right. [growls]
WHAT happened last night?
- I get it now.
I get it, you're mad at me because I interrupted your date.
That makes perfect sense, Bree, but you know something?
It's not like you know her.
- My date, my date?!
Who the #### did you bring back?
- We're back with our final segment with director,
Jimmy Boratyn, and Jimmy, okay, I've been eagerly,
anxiously, nervously waiting to ask you this question.
The scene in the movie, for me,
that was the hardest to watch, was her post-surgery scene,
where she's removing the bandages.
I was literally on the edge of my seat.
I didn't know what I was gonna see as a viewer.
I was just lost in that moment.
Can you take us a little bit to the set,
what that was like for Susan Gordon to perform that scene
and how did you pull that off?
Serious makeup job?
How did you do that?
- Yeah, we were fortunate
to have a really talented makeup team
who created some amazing scarring
and that, like you said,
it was such a powerful and riveting moment,
that we actually had a pretty much closed set for that.
I, uh...
I took the camera over from the cinematographer.
We had everyone out of the room.
It was just me, Melissa, and Susan,
and we just wanted a quiet moment
to let her reflect on
what had happened to her body.
The transformation that had come to her physically,
that sort of mimicked the emotional transformation
that occurs throughout the course of the film,
and yeah, I think that was one of the more powerful moments
for all of us on set that day,
and it was also in the heart of filming,
so it was a long, long day at that point.
- Yeah, was it difficult for the actress?
Did she have to prepare in a certain way?
Was she nervous about...?
You said this was one of her first big roles.
Was she nervous about shooting that?
- I think Susan, in her own way,
was a little nervous about shooting all the scenes.
She wanted it to be perfect in every way possible, I think,
but yes, any time that it had to do with something
that was so sensitive,
the revealing of the scarring post-mastectomy,
the head shaving,
those were the moments that Susan wanted to sit down
and really get into the mind
of what Melissa had gone through
and what this character should be experiencing,
and she did it.
I think she nailed it.
We've had people all over the country
who have watched his film
and who are living with breast cancer,
just kind of come up and say,
"You found-- you captured the experience so great."
- Yeah, we have less than a minute left.
I just want to ask you in closing,
what was the most challenging part of this for you
and for Melissa through this whole process?
- Oh, I think, you know,
reliving the nightmare scenario
that we were in.
We were living through her going through treatment
and we were trying to make a film about it,
and at some point, it becomes, like, cancer overload,
and you're like, "I just need to get away,"
but I think that's why the editing
took a little bit longer than we anticipated,
but it was worth it in the end.
- Well, you definitely pulled it off.
It was very nice work. - Thank you.
- Yeah, thanks so much for being here today.
- It was my pleasure.
- All right, and thank you for watching Director's Cut.
For more information on Ginger,
please go to pbswisconsin.org and click on Director's Cut.
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Also don't forget to "like" PBS Wisconsin on Facebook
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In the meantime, let's all be as nice as we can
to each other,
since we really never know what others are facing.
We'll see you next time on Director's Cut.
[dramatic synthesizer music]