- The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original production.  
[funky music]

- Ginger Voiceover: Now, it feels like the person I was  is a long lost friend.  Yeah, I lost her, but maybe if I can put my life back together,  I'll find her again.  Or, maybe I'll find someone I like a little better. 
[dramatic Director's Cut theme music]

- Welcome to Director's Cut. We just saw a clip from the very poignant drama, Ginger, a film that takes viewers on an emotional journey through the story's title character, Ginger, as she battles breast cancer. I'm joined tonight by the film's co-director, Jimmy Boratyn. Jimmy, welcome to Director's Cut.

- Jimmy: Thank you. It's great to be here.

- When we initially booked you on this show pre- global pandemic, your wife, and the film's co-director, Melissa, was scheduled to be here with you and she has since passed away. Can you just tell us, right from the start, a little bit about what that experience is like making a movie with her and not having her here to talk about it with you?

- Yeah, well, it's still a pretty new experience. Because of the pandemic, there haven't been a lot of interviews going on. So she passed away back in June, and, you know, it's tough, because she was the heart and soul of this story, and trying to really impart what she had hoped and all of her aspirations for this film, it's a daunting challenge, but one I hope to accomplish.

- Yeah, you have a really interesting moment in the first, I would say, eight minutes of the film, where Ginger's friend, Bree, says to her, "If you're still working here in 10 years, I'll kill you," and Ginger says, "Yeah, that would suck," and I'm just curious, was that written in purposefully, as foreshadowing, to give perspective retrospectively?

- You know, a little bit. I think a lot of why that came to be part of the script was a big chunk of this was actual experiences Melissa had. We dramatized it, we added some quirky comedy, but that, in particular, Melissa was... She was working at a coffee shop at the time, and she was very content, though she had a passion for filmmaking, but it was one of those things where she had a friend, Thurza, who really pushed her, and we wanted to really build on that relationship to just show that it's more than just one person who goes through a cancer diagnosis.

- Yeah, that's a great answer, and I only noticed that on the second viewing. I was like, "Oh, wow, I wonder if that was..." 'Cause it is a thing people say, "If you're still here in 10 years, I'll kill you. Follow your dreams," but not realizing what she was about to be up against. Very interesting point in the story. Let's see another clip from Ginger. 
[doorbell buzzing]

[doorbell buzzing many times]

- Hello?

- Oh, now you answer! Listen here!

- Mom?

- Mom: Do you want to tell me why the hell I got a phone call from a hospital about coverage for a mammogram?!

- Wait, just give me, like, one second. Oh, my God, Jesus Christ. 
[train passing nearby]

  Did you do something with your hair? It looks bigger.

- Ginger, cut the ####. I am going to need you to text me the names of your doctors. We are going to get ahead of this thing.

- What is there to get ahead of, Mom?

- You hungry? I am going to make you something to eat.

- Of course you are, and you're going to go into the kitchen, and then you're going to touch my things, and then you're going to be like, "This food isn't healthy," And then I'm going to be like, "I know, Mom, why do you think I like it?"

- I have a friend at work.

- Oh, you have a friend? How nice.

- She is staying away from gluten.  I really think that that's something you ought to try. They say that gluten is the new smoking. Oh, my God, you don't smoke, do you?

- Oh, my God, Mom, just stop, just please stop, please. Just please, just get out of my kitchen. Just stop. I'm fine. 

- Fine. How's the job hunt going?

- Oh, my God. 

- Welcome back, talking with Jimmy Boratyn, the co-director of the film, Ginger.  Jimmy, this is an autobiographical film from Melissa. You touched on this a little bit in the intro, but how much of Ginger's experience was similar to Melissa's experience? 

- You know, I'd say a lot of the key moments,  the elements of friendship, job, family, all of that was from real life. It was the-- You know, the quirkiness that Ginger has is a little bit more than Melissa had. She definitely was a quirky person, but I'd say it's like 60/40 of reality to just drama and comedy.

- Yeah, you directed another film called The Giggles.

- Oh, yeah.

- I saw that in your bio, where it looked like you were the sole director, and Ginger, you co-directed with Melissa. Talk a little bit about, if you will, that experience, directing something by yourself as to working with a co-director, and then, also, directing something with your wife. How different were those experiences?

- Yeah, so when we were making The Giggles, Melissa and I were dating, and she was the editor and she helped out a lot on set, but really, at the end of the day, she was telling me what to do anyway. 
[Pete laughs]

- Pete: A lot of editors will do that. 
[laughs]

- Yeah, yeah, so co-directing was a little bit different,  but really, we met in film school, we went to grad school together, we ran a business together, we did all these things together, so collaborating, a lot of it was like a 'hive mind' scenario, where we knew what the other one was thinking, and when one of us got stuck, the other one could step in and say, "I think this could solve our problems," so that really helped us a lot on set, I think. Also Melissa was-- on our second day of casting, Melissa got diagnosed Stage IV. When we wrote this, it was early stage and we didn't think it was going to be a lifelong battle for her, so it ended up being one of those things, where she was going to treatment, and though she never missed a day on set, she definitely had days where she would come straight from chemo, and if we had to get started, or if chemo ran late, I picked up the reins and kept the movie going.

- That's interesting. So, you guys-- or Melissa and a co-writer, started writing the script really before she had gone through this whole experience, other than the initial diagnosis?

- Yeah, actually, if you get a chance to read the original script, it was a lot more lighthearted. It had a lot more... a lot more elements of comedy than drama. And then, when she was diagnosed Stage IV, just a lot of these feelings came out, and we have already had a pretty solid script, but she sat down and rewrote a lot of the movie. I think a lot of the voiceovers that you see in the movie are... are things she wrote after becoming Stage IV and having just a very different outlook on life and of a terminal cancer diagnosis.

- Let's talk about casting for a minute, Jimmy. You mentioned you find actors anywhere,  but in a city like Chicago, you're really spoiled for choice. It's such a great theater town, so many actors. What was that process like? Did you have to turn great actors away or was it like, oh, my gosh, who are we going to get to find-- to fill this role? Can you talk about that a little bit?

- Yeah, we definitely had to turn away some amazing actors and actresses. Chicago, with Second City and the Improv Olympics and all the great theater companies out there we have, like you said, we're just spoiled, and Johnny Woj, our producer, came from a casting agency background, so he kind of ran it really, really well, but I think we underestimated how many people would be excited to work on a film like this. We had something like 500 people audition and there were just so many people that we had to... Me and Melissa, in the back of our minds, we were like, "Yeah, okay, we're gonna keep a note of this person, "'cause they just nailed it, "but there just happened to be someone who's that much closer to perfection," and it was a really great opportunity.

- How long did that process take, start to finish, for the casting?

- We cast over three days in person, and then, Johnny really dedicated himself,  and I can't imagine how many hours he went through tapes that were submitted and all that kind of stuff.

- I would imagine when you have a name like Johnny Woj, you pretty much have to be in show business.

- Yeah, right? Yeah, he definitely looks like Mr. Hollywood too.

- [laughs] That's great. Let's see another clip from Ginger. 

- So...  you gonna tell me what happened? 

- Sure, um...  I wrote it down. I... They told me to so I did. Mm...  There are... lots of terms that I didn't really get. Um...  
[whispers]

 Big words. Uh... She said it was uh... definitely cancer.  Uh... I... I... I need surgery. Uh, she said that. She said I need surgery and she, uh... she gave me a name of a doctor to call. Uh, so I gotta do that.

- Why the #### did this happen over the phone?

- Uh, she has to go on vacation. 
[suppressed crying]

 She wanted to tell me before she left 'cause [crying] apparently this thing is time sensitive.  You know?  It's kinda funny, though, right?  To think about doctors on the beach and stuff. Like, that's weird.  She's probably wearing a bikini now or something weird. 
[sniffle]

You know, like, ah!  Like...  
[paper crumpling]

- Jimmy, you touched on this before. You do have a lot of comedy in the film. Can you talk a little bit about the balance you have to strike? You have pretty heavy subject matter here, but you do have comedy. How, as a director, do you know when to infuse some comedy and when not to?

- Yeah, well, this one was pretty easy. When you have such a heavy subject matter, like cancer, you can never really throw in too much comedy, I feel like, but at the same time, while we were going through this, especially when we were so young, and Melissa was diagnosed at 23, there were moments that were just comical. There's a lot of sadness and a lot of isolation, but also moments of just like, wow, this is actually how it works. This is what happens when you get diagnosed with cancer. Also, just doctors being confused about how things affect somebody who's so young, especially coming straight out of college. So, I think we were always trying to find more humor to add, but the balance really came from Susan Gordon, who played Ginger. She came into auditions and we just knew, when we met her, she had this quirky personality and she had this ability to make light and joke about a subject matter that a lot of the people we auditioned shied away from, especially when you're auditioning in front of somebody who actually has cancer, to make a joke about living with it. That's not something that comes easy to a lot of people, so I think Susan really helped add that level of quirkiness and comedy that we wanted.

- Did you know her before she auditioned?

- No, actually, we got really lucky with Susan, 'cause we put up casting calls all over and we did all the casting ourselves, and one of our producers, Johnny, just happened to put up a flyer that we were doing open casting at a Whole Foods, where Susan Gordon happened to be working, and she was like, "Oh, I'm not going to audition for that," and her friend convinced her to do it, and the rest is history.

- She saw the quinoa cake and then jumped into the auditioning chair. Good for her and lucky for you.  Shooting in a big city like Chicago, in my experience, there's a small town shooting, there's a big city shooting. It seems like people in small towns bend over backwards to help, 'cause it's something new to them, it's cool. In a big city, you have people who are jaded, don't want to be inconvenienced by movie shooting, they're just kind of hip to the whole thing. Was it difficult shooting in Chicago, from picking sets, getting deals, spending more money as an indie film producer. What was that experience like?

- Yeah, you're definitely onto something. I remember doing a short film in a small town in Michigan, and literally, we picked up the phone and we called the mayor and he answered, and he was like, "Oh, you want to close down the street? Yeah, go for it." But the big city, I think filming in Chicago, it wasn't a hindrance. I think things cost a little bit more here and there but because of the subject matter, because of what we were trying to accomplish with this film, trying to send a message of hope and build community around something that impacts millions of people, I think there was a lot of people in the community, who wanted to help, who wanted to be a part of this, and they made the film special and made it possible, even on our shoestring budget.

- Yeah, you have characters in the film being pretty insensitive to Ginger. Was that Melissa's experience? Unknowingly, at times, maybe even?

- Yeah, there were definitely some. I'd say most of the people, most of the time, people were pretty positive and pretty supportive, but when she was first diagnosed,  she happened to be working at that coffee shop I mentioned, and yeah, she gets off the phone, she's in tears, and her boss just asked her, "Well, it's not like you can't work, right?"

- Oh, my Gosh.

- And that was the day Melissa quit and started working full time with me at our company, so it was...

- Pete: Wow.

- I think it's not malicious. I think there's just a lot of people out there who don't know what to say, and sometimes you stick your foot in your mouth.

- Sure, great answer. Let's see another clip from Ginger.

- Hey, Ginger, I'm at the bar around the corner here, so why don't you come down and have a drink?

- I can't. 

- Oh, okay,  you want to try and hang out next week then?

- I don't know, Ben. Why don't you tell me?

- What?

- I'm turning over a new leaf, you know.

- Ginger, are you okay?

- Ben, you're awesome,  literally the coolest person I've ever met, other than myself,  but I just found out I have cancer.

- Hold on, holy ####! 

- Listen, Ben, I'm gonna go back to eating my feelings now. And... Hey, Cosmo, do you wanna order some pizza?  Yeah, probably just gonna do that, Ben. 

- Ginger, wait, hold on.

- Bye.  
[doorbell ringing]

  Who is it?

- Hey, Ginger, it's Ben.  I thought you could use some company, so I brought someone that I'd like you to meet.  Dog... Speak.

- 
[dog barking]

 § I've had enough of this day § § It seems to me that everything has come so fast these days §  So you wanna talk about it? 

- No, I'm kinda doing this thing where I'm repressing my feelings. You're like, "Hi, Ginger," and I'm like, "Why?" § I think it's time to get out of my everyday life § 

- Welcome back to Director's Cut. We're talking with Jimmy Boratyn, the co-director of Ginger. Jimmy, at one point, I noticed that Ginger, your lead actress, let's talk about her again, Susan Gordon is in, I think, every scene in the movie, if I remember correctly, or it seemed like it when I was watching it. How challenging is that? It's really a question for her, I would imagine, but how challenging was that for her and how do you, knowing you have to find an actress to carry an entire movie, how do you decide that in one audition or maybe one with a callback?

- Yeah, we did do callbacks. We did do a few, but Susan just nailed it from the start. I think we had an idea of what we wanted. I think, in hindsight, we probably would have written a few scenes where Susan's not in it, to give her a break here or there, but she is such a pro and she took everything so seriously.  She spent hours and hours working with Melissa, to just get in the mindset and in the frame of what it's like to be living with cancer,  and to make sure that every scene in the film would resonate, and I think there were scenes that were definitely intimidating to her. There's a head shave scene that's pretty emotional for anybody who would have taken that part, but Susan, I remember she had notebooks this thick, filled with notes and thoughts and ideas on how the character can go, and we would do rehearsals, but I can't say enough for how well Susan  just stepped into the role and dedicated herself to being the best possible performer she could be in this movie.

- Yeah, there was a lot there for an actor to work on.

- And she's so young, too.

- Is she?

- She was 21 when we cast her.

- Oh, my gosh, wow,  so I want to move to music. Similar to comedy, I remember watching indie films 25 years ago, or when I was in college, and just thinking, "Oh, the music is awful." Now, just like with access to good cameras being so much cheaper than it was, it seems like I'm seeing a lot more great music in indie films. Is it easier to find music now, because there's so many people that want to be discovered or how did you go about finding good music for Ginger?

- Yeah, so a big chunk of our budget went towards our sound design and our music, and a lot of it is that, well, at this point, we had been doing marketing videos for about five, six years to our company, and we had found some really great stock libraries, and I've noticed, from a lot of the musicians I know, that creating stock music and putting it out there for people to purchase and use, it's become more mainstream,  and something that's really a lot easier to find quality material, and so it was a lot  of searching through libraries  and libraries of stuff. Melissa had originally cut the film to music, 'cause that's how she liked to do it. She liked to find a rhythm, so there was things like Lady Gaga in there, and I was like, "Yeah, well, we ain't gonna afford Lady Gaga," but then we went back and we searched some libraries and found some great music to work with.

- It's incredible. Honestly, this was revelatory for me, when I was watching this, because I'm like, man. I know you didn't have a $20 million budget, but I'm like-- back in the day, it's like the director would be like, "I did the music myself." I'm like, yeah, well, maybe you shouldn't have, but now, it's incredible, the music that's available to indie filmmakers, so that's great and well done, but let's see another clip from Ginger. 

- Hey, look who finally made it out of bed.

- Hi. 
[TV in background]

- Hey, did you... eat the last of the coconut gelato?

- Yeah, sorry, it's the only thing that would settle my stomach, so I ate it. So...

- I was looking forward to this all day.  This is the fancy #### that costs extra at the store!

- Sorry, Bree, I'll buy you some more. All right?  ####!

- When?! When, when, when, when are you gonna buy me more, huh? Because, to me, it looks like you're just gonna sit on your ass in front of my TV all day like you do every day.

- Okay, Bree, you're being ridiculous right now.

- [scoffs] I'm being ridiculous?

- Ginger: Yeah.

- You know what? You're right, you're right. I am for putting up with you and all of your ####### ####.

- God, you're insane.

- I'm insane?! I'M INSANE?! You know what? You're right, you're right. 
[growls]

 WHAT happened last night? 

- I get it now.  I get it, you're mad at me because I interrupted your date. That makes perfect sense, Bree, but you know something? It's not like you know her.

- My date, my date?! Who the #### did you bring back?

- We're back with our final segment with director, Jimmy Boratyn, and Jimmy, okay, I've been eagerly, anxiously, nervously waiting to ask you this question. The scene in the movie, for me, that was the hardest to watch, was her post-surgery scene, where she's removing the bandages. I was literally on the edge of my seat. I didn't know what I was gonna see as a viewer. I was just lost in that moment. Can you take us a little bit to the set, what that was like for Susan Gordon to perform that scene and how did you pull that off? Serious makeup job? How did you do that?

- Yeah, we were fortunate to have a really talented makeup team who created some amazing scarring and that, like you said, it was such a powerful and riveting moment, that we actually had a pretty much closed set for that. I, uh... I took the camera over from the cinematographer. We had everyone out of the room. It was just me, Melissa, and Susan, and we just wanted a quiet moment to let her reflect on what had happened to her body. The transformation that had come to her physically, that sort of mimicked the emotional transformation that occurs throughout the course of the film, and yeah, I think that was one of the more powerful moments for all of us on set that day, and it was also in the heart of filming, so it was a long, long day at that point.

- Yeah, was it difficult for the actress? Did she have to prepare in a certain way? Was she nervous about...? You said this was one of her first big roles. Was she nervous about shooting that?

- I think Susan, in her own way, was a little nervous about shooting all the scenes. She wanted it to be perfect in every way possible, I think, but yes, any time that it had to do with something that was so sensitive,  the revealing of the scarring post-mastectomy, the head shaving, those were the moments that Susan wanted to sit down and really get into the mind of what Melissa had gone through and what this character should be experiencing, and she did it. I think she nailed it. We've had people all over the country who have watched his film and who are living with breast cancer, just kind of come up and say, "You found-- you captured the experience so great."

- Yeah, we have less than a minute left. I just want to ask you in closing, what was the most challenging part of this for you and for Melissa through this whole process?

- Oh, I think, you know, reliving the nightmare scenario that we were in. We were living through her going through treatment and we were trying to make a film about it, and at some point, it becomes, like, cancer overload, and you're like, "I just need to get away," but I think that's why the editing took a little bit longer than we anticipated, but it was worth it in the end.

- Well, you definitely pulled it off. It was very nice work.

- Thank you.

- Yeah, thanks so much for being here today.

- It was my pleasure.

- All right, and thank you for watching Director's Cut. For more information on Ginger, please go to pbswisconsin.org and click on Director's Cut. While you're there, send us an email or find out how to submit a film. Also don't forget to "like" PBS Wisconsin on Facebook or follow us on Twitter. In the meantime, let's all be as nice as we can to each other, since we really never know what others are facing. We'll see you next time on Director's Cut. 
[dramatic synthesizer music]