(upbeat music)
(bluegrass music)
- He opened his house to people
every Thursday for decades to come and play.
And I think at this stage very few people were coming by
and I imagine his surprise to see three young black kids
come in his house.
I know he was delighted.
- When I first went to the black banjo gathering,
what amazed me was the way that I found out about
this whole black vernacular music that wasn't,
that hadn't really been talked about.
(violin music)
? ?
- Welcome to Director's Cut.
I'm Pete Schwaba and we just saw a clip
from "Don't Get Trouble in Your Mind:
"The Carolina Chocolate Drop Story."
This documentary chronicles the rise and fall
of the first all Black string band
and over the next 30 minutes
you will be tapping your feet.
I'm joined tonight by the film's director, John Whitehead.
John, welcome to Director's Cut.
- Hey Pete, glad to be here.
- Great to have you and so tell us how
this project became yours.
What made you the filmmaker that would tell their story?
- Sure, I make films for public television.
I'm based in St. Paul, Minnesota.
I'm also an avid musician of old time and bluegrass
and I found out about a thing called
The Black Banjo Gathering in 2005.
Then we have to wind the clock all the way back.
And also learned on this website they were having this gathering.
It was a gathering of people, enthusiasts,
African-American enthusiasts of the banjo,
of which there were about 50.
And they were planning to meet
in Appalachian State, in Boone, North Carolina
to get together.
And I learned that the banjo was from Africa
at that same moment on their webpage.
And I thought there might be a story here,
so I went down with my small camera
and was at something that was life changing.
- Boy, that is something.
So you just kind of, your gut instinct told you
there might be a project here.
There might be a story worth telling.
- Yeah, I had done another film,
a roots-based music film and I was looking for a subject
and so at that Black Banjo Gathering,
there was this cast of characters that would become
the cast of characters in the movie, but I didn't know,
I was just meeting them for the first time.
They were just meeting each other for the first time
before they were a band.
- Were you filming a bunch of different people
or did you immediately gravitate towards these three?
- Well, all three were there.
I met Rhiannon and Dom. I didn't meet Justin 'til later.
They were sort of the younger generation
and obviously super talented and charismatic individuals
and I knew I had to get 'em on tape.
But there, you know, Mike Seeger, Bela Fleck,
there were other people there, you know,
my generation people, and older so, but I did--
They were low hanging fruit. They were charming.
- That's great. Well, let's see another clip from
"The Carolina Chocolate Drops."
- Nice to be here this evening, and...
with everybody and let 'em know
that I appreciate being here with ya.
- [Justin Robinson] I got there just in time
for him to go on. I saw him and was just,
it just completely changed my world.
I was just, you know, grinning from ear to ear.
I met Rhiannon there.
I saw Dom.
We didn't, Dom and I didn't talk, because Dom--
I was kind of put off by Dom and his hair.
He was just like the crazy guy in the back, so.
And I didn't stay.
I only stayed for half a day.
So, I was like, "Hey!"
I was talking to Rhiannon and I was like, "We should play sometime."
- Hey, there's a Black dude with a fiddle case, but he didn't play any.
He was just there to you know, sort of scope it out,
and he had braces at that point, and that's what I remember the most.
That he was a Black guy with braces.
And, we talked a little bit and he was like,
"Yeah, I really want to, you know,
I really want to study with Joe,"
and I was like, "We should get together and play."
- I listen to a lot of stuff on my records,
a lot of 20s, 30s, and it's like if I played for friends of mine,
they don't like it.
- I met Dom, like the first day,
and he has this over the top, sort of personality.
- It's like saying--
It's like an ear of corn compared to cornbread.
It's like made from the same stuff, but it ain't the same.
- [Rhiannon Giddens] Definitely, the musical spark was first.
(banjo and harmonica music)
[Rhiannon Giddens] I started playing "Banjo Pickin' Girl"
and he flicked his harmonica, and it was just really a neat moment.
(harmonica warbles)
(Rhiannon laughs)
- [Rhiannon Giddens] Awesome.
- There's nothing like that connection
when artists just, you know, they have it.
And that was there first time they played together. That's pretty cool.
Do "The Carolina Chocolate Drops" happen
if they don't meet Joe Thompson at that banjo convention?
- That's a good question.
No, I don't think so.
I think it was this incredible, sort of synergy,
where they came together, they met him,
and then they apprenticed with him.
So, yeah, I think that was all sort of providential.
- [Pete Schwaba] Yeah, or maybe a band happens,
a Black string band, but not necessarily these three individuals,
because if that was the first gathering of this type--
I mean, it's just, I don't know. I think it's--
- We should say that they were the first band in the modern era.
There were other Black string bands.
There was a band called the Ebony Hillbillies
that was there that used to busk in New York City.
And there are some other Black players,
but certainly the Drops were the first group
that, you know, got any attention.
- [Schwaba] So that kind of leads me to my next question.
Three individuals, all very much individuals,
very creative, headstrong, they came together.
Did that make you nervous at all about following them?
Or making a film with them?
That you might clash creatively with them?
Because they're all very much individuals.
You're an artist. You're a filmmaker.
Were you apprehensive at all about that?
- Not initially. I mean it was, initially, it was
such a positive energy that came from them.
They were just lit up and they were glad to have the attention.
You know, dissension, creative problems, that came later.
So, jumping in, no, it was all good.
- And do you like those problems as a filmmaker?
Are you glad that those things happen?
Because you've got your camera there
and it creates a little bit of drama, I would think.
- Yeah, I was initially drawn in by the history,
and they're all such interesting subjects.
And the drama, you know,
I didn't want to make VH1 Behind the Music.
I didn't want to make that film, you know?
These guys are all teetotalers,
so we're not going to have sex, drugs and rock n' roll.
- They just have a great work ethic.
But, at a certain point, it is very interesting.
They truly do have creative differences,
and that sort of conflict comes out,
and makes for a compelling story, I think.
- Okay, and what you just said before,
there were other Black string bands.
What makes them, or what made them stand out?
Is it their individual talent coming together,
and the style of music?
Or is it more their individualness,
their creativity as artists that came together?
- Yeah, I think it's obviously the chemistry they had,
the musicianship they had, but also this vision.
So they took this repertoire of Joe Thompson,
which gave them a real firm basis.
It was only about a dozen songs,
but they sort of learned his style,
and then they made it their own,
and they all had the talent to sort of
take it to the next level so that eventually
they're working hip hop into it.
- [Schwaba] Wow. - And they're mixing in ballads,
they're mixing in old blues songs,
and their incredibly good performers.
- Yeah, they really are.
What's your preferred style of music?
Like, did you bring a wealth of knowledge to this project?
Where you could kind of converse with them about this
style of music, or what's your--
- Yeah, I'm a music geek, you know, a reader of liner notes.
I love all the rootsy genres, you know,
old-time country and blues,
but I grew up on Bob Dylan and Van Morrison.
But I've been immersed in roots music
for most of my adult life.
Not like Dom Flemons, who is a walking encyclopedia.
Or Rhiannon, or any of them. - [Schwaba] Yeah.
- But, I'm really drawn to rootsy styles.
- Yeah, well, it came across certainly.
Let's see another clip from
"Don't Get Trouble in Your Mind:
"The Carolina Chocolate Drops' Story."
- [Rhiannon Giddens] Well, I just remember when we started,
we were okay in the beginning,
but we weren't fantastic.
We were finding our way as a band,
and we had a lot of energy.
(fiddle music)
(audience applauds and cheers)
[Rhiannon Giddens] But people really loved it.
It just really told us that it's not about being
virtuosic with what we're doing.
They loved the energy, they loved the history,
and we gave them a show.
- You guys are the real thing.
- What you guys are doing, it's such a distant connection
that most people don't hear.
- To my amazement, after the show,
there's maybe a hundred and some people there,
I bet, 85 of them, got in the queue
to buy this homemade CD.
They didn't even have a cover.
- In there is our email address,
and our website.
- So, I got in line with everybody else.
I told them I was Tim Duffy, and Dom said,
"Oh, I know you.
"I checked your records out of Arizona Public Library.
"I learned about John Dee Holeman, Neal Pattman,
"Algia Mae Hinton, your recording of Preston Fulp .
"This is great." He knew all my records.
- I had known Tim's Music Maker albums,
so he and I got to talking,
and it was pretty much like, well, he said,
"Do you guys have management?" and we said, "No."
And he was kind enough to say he'd start managing us.
- So, it was an interesting part in the film,
where Rhiannon says that her,
I think her mom was Black and her dad was White.
You've got this music played by young Black people,
Black kids, I think you called them,
that was thought to be "White people music",
for lack of a better term,
but then wait a minute, the banjo is from Africa,
so who does this music belong to, if anyone?
Or is it just a great unifier?
- Well there's so many ways to come at that.
Let's talk about the banjo for a second.
Rhiannon talks about the banjo being
a cross-cultural artifact.
You know, it was brought over by enslaved Africans,
adopted later by Whites.
But a lot of the rhythms--
There's a reason why old-time music from the Appalachians
sounds different than Irish or Scottish music,
and it's that African American influence.
And it's really at the DNA level of all-American music,
which is a pretty profound idea.
So, yeah, they can, every African American, in a way,
it's a metaphor about integration.
We're a hybrid culture.
- That's what I thought was so fascinating about it.
She says my mom is Black, my dad is White.
This music is White. Black. No, it's White,
but it's everybody's, really,
and it should be a unifying factor.
- And she goes on to say that Hee Haw was on at her house.
It was her Black grandmother listening to Hee Haw .
So the distinctions,
there's a lot more complexity in this story.
- We've sort of got this duality, Black and White thing,
but there's a lot of shades of gray.
- [Shwaba] Yeah, great way to put it.
I love the clip too, where Dom, who is a great character,
he's driving, and he kind of says, you know,
"This is great. I'm playing music.
"People are paying me to do it. I'm so lucky."
And then you've got Justin, who's like,
"Well, I've been doing this for five years now.
"I'm not so sure I'm into this artistically anymore."
I kind of really related to that
because I did stand-up comedy for ten years,
traveled all over, and I felt the same way Dom did.
Was that their undoing, kind of?
Was it just two different ways to approach how lucky they were?
And I'm sure Justin thinks he was fortunate to be able to do this.
And do you experience that, as a filmmaker?
Do you think I'm fortunate to be doing this?
Or are you like, on to the next project,
I've got to make a groundbreaking film.
- Yeah, I think Dom and Justin were looking
at the project from different ends of the telescope,
from the get-go, and that was flawed from the start.
But it was only the pressures of the road
that took that out, that brought that out,
and there were truly creative differences.
You know, Justin had this thing,
that if you weren't writing original songs,
you weren't doing something creative.
And Dom really wanted the foreground traditional music,
and his contributions to that.
So, I think they were like oil and water.
I was happy to be on the ride, and still am.
You know, I feel enormously grateful.
It was sort of luck and persistence,
were two of the things that helped get this project over,
and I just feel really grateful
that they allowed, that they let me in.
- Yeah and their rise was so fast, too.
Like, well I've been doing this five years.
Most artists don't reach their pinnacle
anywhere close to five years, it takes longer than that,
so I feel like Justin was kind of skewed.
That just doesn't happen very often.
So, it's interesting.
I kind of respected both of where they were coming from,
their perspectives, you know.
How much footage of what we're seeing was yours,
and how much was like archival, or belonged to the band?
- It's all mine.
All the early stuff I shot with a small camera.
Then they went off and got famous.
And my life went on, and I'm up in St. Paul making projects,
and then I came back to them.
I got some grant money and came back in 2012,
and filmed the band when they-- after, when Dom was leaving.
So I had a hole in the middle.
It turned out that there was a young intern,
who had worked out of their label office,
named Tom Ciaburri, and YouTube was becoming a thing.
This was 2010 when they were blowing up.
And they asked him to come on the road
and do a few YouTube videos,
and he stayed on the road for six weeks,
just like a fly on the wall, with this little camera,
and I got access to that 70 hours of material,
and there are a lot of gems in that material.
And gave Tom co-producer credit.
So, it's about a third my small camera,
a third Tom, and third stuff we shot later with
a high-def camera.
- That's a collaborative process, as we know. - Yes.
- Let's see another clip from "Don't Get Trouble in Your Mind."
- The brighter the star shone,
and the more that they were having
to be living on the road, you know,
this was something that Dom adapted to very easily.
This is his life's passion. This is what he wants to do.
He adapted to the road very quickly.
- You know, what else can a musician want?
You know, people come to your shows.
If you get paid to do your shows,
then you get to do them as a full-time job.
I know a bunch of motherf##kers that don't got that,
and they are, you know, struggling,
trying to make it, or they quit it.
? Cornbread and butter beans And you across the table ?
- Whereas Justin, you know, he's a country boy.
- Some people are born ramblers.
I'm not. That's not my thing.
- He likes getting up in the morning early,
and you know, he's a great cook.
He's got his huntin' dogs. He raises chickens.
Next thing you know, you're playing a show.
You're driving half the night,
waking up in a Motel 6,
you're going to the Waffle House day after day after day.
? Ride the mule and cut the fool And love again all over ?
- [Rhiannon Giddens] I don't even know how we made it through sometimes.
Travel and you know, food, and then with all
the emotional stuff on top of it,
it was just like intense.
? ?
- Do you want to do "Your Baby Ain't Sweet"
or do you want to do "Cindy Gal?"
Do you have a preference? - No.
- When I first met the group, I suspected
that Rhiannon and Dom were a couple,
but you really couldn't tell.
That's how they separate their private lives
and professional lives.
Information is almost, not guarded,
but separate and walled, you know?
And so, one time, I asked at my house,
"Are you guys a couple?"
They said yes, they were.
This is very short lived, early in,
I mean months after I met them, they decided to break up.
- There's a nice dramatic piece we were talking about before,
a little drama thrown in. - Yeah.
- When we spoke the other day, John, I said I felt
like Justin was the most interesting character,
because he's kind of this hunter,
into the land and forestry, and that kind of stuff.
And what I mentioned before about
kind of being done artistically after five years.
You said he was your favorite character too,
but not until the editing process.
Talk about the editing process, if you would,
and how that can happen.
How does he become your favorite because of editing?
- I should say that I can't play favorites with them.
They're all equally interesting to me.
But I think Justin has the clearest dramatic arc
in the film, so from a film point of view,
he's sort of, steals the third act, if you will.
And so he's an introverted guy,
and in my interviews with him,
he's the least likely to want to be on camera, but as we got in,
as I really dug into that 70 hours of material that Tom shot,
and I looked at the transcripts that I shot,
I realized there was this arc of him, you know,
that culminates in him leaving the band,
which was really interesting and goes against the grain
of a lot of success narratives.
- It's fascinating. He went back to school to become like
a forestry professor or something like that?
- The same week they're nominated for a Grammy,
he announces his intent to leave the band,
and he goes back and gets a Master's degree in Forestry.
And yeah, he's doing that now.
He lives outside Durham, as part of an intentional
African American agricultural community.
Fascinating guy.
- Interesting. So you've got these great--
As a filmmaker, you know, you like their music.
You just said, you don't really have a favorite. They're all interesting.
When you're making the film,
maybe you get in the editing process,
how do you decide music ratio to individuals
and interviews, because the music is great,
but they're also interesting. Is that a fine line to walk?
- Yeah, a lot of iterations.
You know, you want to have enough music.
It can't be a concert film.
I was trying to use the music, in a way, like a musical,
but where so the music moves the story forward.
And there's a couple examples of that.
So you're learning some history,
or you're learning something about, you know,
when Dom is leaving the band, you hear them singing,
"Short Life of Trouble,"
"For The Boy with the Broken Heart."
I mean, it's sort of on a subliminal level,
but there's definitely the music and the images go together.
And then trying to find the three characters,
weaving that together with history.
That was the challenge. Lot of hours in the chair.
- Yeah, I'm sure. Lot of back aches.
- Yeah. - So that's interesting.
That kind of leads me to my next question.
Of all their songs, explain the title.
Why did you go with that song?
- "Don't Get Trouble in Your Mind,"
it just suggested-- It could be read two ways.
It could be read, "Everything is good,"
and "Don't worry about a thing."
It could also be a little bit of a warning sign,
that there might be trouble ahead.
And it sort of spoke to both their roots, their mission,
and a little bit of their journey as people coming together.
- There's a scene too, where-- Well Justin, again, says,
playing every night for so long
gets you really good at the craft,
but you're so exhausted it stunts your creativity.
Is there a parallel there with making documentary films?
Do you get too into something where you need to dismiss yourself
and take a break? What's your process like?
- Well, this film took 13 years.
I mean, I worked on it over 13 years.
It was definitely a marathon.
A couple times I wanted to just bag it.
- Right.
- So, yeah, it takes a lot of persistence,
doing it on a shoestring, but I love it.
I love it.
I love the idea of trying to tell a story with pictures,
and that keeps me coming back.
- Let's see another clip from "The Carolina Chocolate Drops."
- [Rhiannon Giddens] Before Mike started coming
on the road with us, where I was, I gave birth to Aiofe,
we'd been all traveling in a white, 16-passenger van.
And so I was like the only woman in this
you know, man vehicle.
I mean, they were, you know fine.
They're not even bad dudes when it comes to like
lots of beer and belching and spitting
and all that kind of stuff.
But it was still male energy,
and not that Mike's not male, but he's my male.
And it just makes a difference, you know.
But having that new energy,
and Mike's a very calm, calming influence.
- His wife wanted to tour,
and so instead of staying home with the baby,
he went on as the primary caregiver,
or a caregiver with Rhiannon, on the road.
- Ohhh!
- Awww!
(applause)
- I was deciding to nurse, and I was just like,
I'm not giving that up, so,
either they come on the road or I stay at home,
and we, you know, can't gig.
So it seemed like the right thing to do.
- Ma ma ma ma ma, (baby coos)
- So we created this sort of home life on the road
that they could participate in.
That was important for things to continue.
But, he would have probably been able to stay longer
had the creativity stuff
and the personality conflicts he was having with Dom.
- So, you said also when we spoke the other day,
and I don't think I'm giving anything away here,
because if you go to their website, they're not together anymore,
but you said they had to break up for this to become
an even more interesting film. Can you explain that?
- Well, I just, it just--
I never had the resources to maybe throw five cameras
in a concert setting at it.
And the way typical music documentaries are made,
where you capture something over a brief period of time.
This because a long-haul study,
and it became a more interesting film,
because there is this whole arc, you get Justin's arc.
You get the relationship with Dom and Rhiannon.
And that, it needed to unfold in time,
and the dust had to settle a little bit for me,
for me to get my arms around it as a storyteller.
- Is it harder to tell stories involving like,
a music documentary, as opposed to a film where
there is no original songs, I guess?
- Yeah, well music documentaries
are opportunities and challenges.
I mean, I'm lucky here in that this, it's a film;
it's not just a concert film.
It's actually a character-driven story film.
There is a story.
And there's all kinds-- Getting music rights,
just technically shooting music,
audio and video can be challenging on a low budget.
So, it's an opportunity and a challenge, I'd say both.
- We've got about a minute left.
Tell us, you have a connection to UW,
and tell us what's next for you?
Talk about the first things first and what's next for you?
- Well, I'm still very much trying to get this film out.
You know, there's sort of making the film,
and then there's getting it distributed.
And I think it has an audience
and I'm working on finding that audience.
And I've never released anything in the digital realm,
so I'm learning about that.
But yeah, my roots are here.
I went to, I was Comm Arts major at UW-Madison.
Grew up in Appleton.
And then came back here and worked at WHA,
and was really the beginning of working in documentaries.
I started shooting for what was then "Wisconsin Magazine."
Did long-form pieces.
So it was a real important time, Madison. Yeah.
- Well, welcome back. Enjoy your time back here and exploring.
I'm sure it's kind of like a fun homecoming for you.
- It is absolutely. - And make another film and come back.
That'd be great. - I'm working on it.
- Well, thanks for being here. Much appreciated.
Great job. That was really fun. The movie's great.
And thank you for watching Director's Cut.
For more information on "Don't Get Trouble in Your Mind:
"The Carolina Chocolate Drops Story,"
please go to WPT.org and click on Director's Cut.
When you're there, find out how to submit a film,
and don't forget to like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter.
In the meantime, I'll be brushing up on my jug playing.
I've been taking lessons for 12 years,
and I think I just gave John an idea for his next film.
We'll see you next time on Director's Cut.
I'm going to play us off here. (blows on bottle)
That's all I've learned in 12 years.
(upbeat music)
(crowd cheers)
- They were a force to be reckoned with.
- You all were fantastic.
- You were great too! - Thank you!
- So, it just kind of built from there.
I was getting calls from the Midwest,
and places in Virginia, places in Oklahoma.
Unbelievable!
It was mind-blowing... the deep reach into core America
and the universe that these guys have.
They struck a nerve.