I was just puzzled like, "What do they want at 12 o'clock? What's the problem?" - And I told 'em, "Nate has his own business. " He say, "What do Dontre do?" I say, "Dontre actually works with a couple of temp agencies.  Because of his illness he hasn't been able to keep a job. " The officer that was sitting next to me put his head down.  And I asked him what was going on.  He was like, "Well, there was an altercation "at Red Arrow Park, "and Dontre was in a scuffle with a police officer and Dontre is deceased. " [haunting music] - Welcome to Director's Cut.  I'm Pete Schwaba, and we just saw a clip from The Blood is at the Doorstep .  A documentary about the shooting of an unarmed black man, suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, by a Milwaukee police officer.  I'm joined tonight by the film's director Erik Ljung.  Erik, welcome to Director's Cut .  - Thanks for having me, Pete.  - Sure, so tell us a little bit about-- We just saw a short clip.  Tell us how you got involved in this project.  How did you find it and what made you want to make it into a film? - Yeah, so I moved to Milwaukee in 2008, and one of my first jobs was at The Pabst Theater, which is literally right across the street from Red Arrow Park.  I remember the day that this happened-- I currently live maybe like a mile from Red Arrow now-- and I remember the day it happened, I heard 14 shots for a non-emergency wellness check on a subject sleeping in the park.  I think for a lot of Milwaukeeans, the number of shots really was the most concerning issue.  It's like 14 shots, for a non-emergency check? It didn't make sense.  How did it escalate to that point? For me personally, I knew I'd be involved at some point, very early on.  I just didn't know how.  I didn't know it was going to be a documentary film. 
 
 
 I didn't know I was going to be spending three years with the family.  For myself personally, there's a lot of misinformation being said about the Hamilton family: that Dontre was homeless, that the family didn't care about him.  But me personally, I grew up in Northern California, and I have a cousin who has diagnosed paranoid schizophrenia and is literally homeless in our hometown.  So, I think it really hit close to home for me of what was being said about the Hamilton family, and what was being said about mental illness in general.  I think it-- The message early on, was just further stigmatizing mental health and families that struggle with an adult member with a severe mental illness.  - Pete: Especially with a family member experiencing the same thing, too, that's interesting.  Let's take another look at a clip from The Blood is at the Doorstep .  - Maria Hamilton: From what we were told, when the call came through dispatch, it went to the beat cop's Sergeant.  And he left a message on the beat cop's cell phone.  [recording of Sergeant] - Hey, Chris, we just got a call from your people there at the Starbucks by Red Arrow Park.  They say there's a homeless guy that's sleeping alongside there, if you wanna check on him.  Black male, 30 to 40 years old-- - Dameion Perkins: This officer called into dispatch.  - Officer Christopher Manney: Is there something on the board for Red Arrow Park? I just got a call from my desk sergeant.  - Dispatcher: 1246, that's a negative.  - Dameion Perkins: Dispatch told him that it was clear over at Red Arrow Park.  - Officer Manney: Alright, if you could create a trouble with subject at Starbucks. . .  - Nate Hamilton: This officer then went and told him to get up off the ground.  The officer began to pat him down.  - Starbucks barista: I heard them before I saw them. 
 
 
 Sounds of fighting and two grown men wrestling essentially.  - The officer apparently backed up and withdrew his baton, and the individual twisted away from the officer, pulling the baton out of his grip.  - The officer did, kind of lunge for the weapon once, missed.  And then when that happened, Dontre swung at the officer's hand, didn't hit him-- I never saw any contact between the two-- and then kind of went back to where they were so the officer's back here.  They're probably, again, 15 feet apart at this point.  That's when the officer pulled out his gun and aimed it at Dontre.  [14 shots fire in rapid succession] I knew it was about to happen so I turned away.  And that's when I counted 12 or more shots.  - Officer Manney: 1246, 1246 shots fired, shots fired.  Officer involved.  Guy started beating me, started beating me, grabbed my baton, was going to hit me in the head with my own baton.  Shots fired, Starbucks, Starbucks, help right now.  Get me medical, too.  He's gonna need medical.  Shot multiple times in the chest.  Black male.  He's about 20.  I don't even know if I was hit.  It was close combat.  I need an officer to help me here, too.  [sirens] - So, talk about approaching the Hamilton family. 
 
 
 They've had this tragedy, you want to make a film.  You want to tell the story, but how do you even go about that knowing what they've just lost? Do you have to be extra-sensitive, hyper-sensitive in how you approach them and what you tell them your angle will be? Not to sensationalize it, but to tell the story.  Talk about that approach a little.  - I think that's the hardest part.  I didn't necessarily set out to make a feature-length documentary film.  I just saw things that were happening in the first couple protests that I went to.  I was filming, but I didn't really know where that would go.  I was kind of just a bystander, I hadn't really necessarily approached the Hamilton family.  But. . .  You know, that's the hardest part, because it's like you're trying to make a movie, but this is someone's real life.  It is extremely intimidating to approach the mother, who had just lost her son, and be like, "Hey, I'm trying to make this documentary film. " And that's not really what I did.  I was out there to document what was happening, because I felt it was important, and bear witness to what was happening in Milwaukee.  You weren't really seeing it on the nightly news.  They would show a 30-second clip or something like that.  I remember distinctly, early on, there was a major rally at City Hall.  There was a physical confrontation between police and protestors.  And I remember watching the news that night because I was like, "I can't believe this is happening in Milwaukee, "with everything that's happened in the country at this point, and, like, this is going on in Milwaukee. " I turned on the nightly news, and I think it was opening night. 
 
 
 Thursday night football, Packer's game, there was like 15 or 20 minutes on the Packer's game, and like a 30-second blip on this.  This story just isn't being told in the nuance and breadth that needs to be covered in Milwaukee.  People are only getting sound bites.  I knew then that I had to follow this through.  I got introduced to them at a rally early on.  The father, Craig Stingley, or father of Corey Stingley, introduced us, Craig.  I had worked with him on a piece for Vice News.  I think the Hamilton family, early on, they just thought I was another news crew.  They saw me there-- and I was an independent-- weeks and weeks in, and eventually we started doing sit down interviews.  That eventually led to me going to Geary, Indiana with Maria, going to her high school reunion, and following Nate to work, and went from there.  - You have to build a trust with them, right? Eventually, I would assume the more they trust you, the more they're willing to open up and give you the access to what they're feeling.  - Absolutely, yeah.  I think it's a trust issue for them because they felt like they were getting sound bited on the news.  They took a chance on me.  They wanted the full story out, they wanted-- A lot of people are saying a lot of things about the Hamilton family, and they wanted people to understand who this family was, and that they did love their brother and that they were strong together.  They wanted to have the opportunity to tell their story in full and they took a chance on me.  A lot of it was me getting to know them a bit, too.  Prior to this, I didn't know the Hamilton family.  I didn't know Dontre.  I had to get to know them, and warm up to them as well.  - Talk about a little-- you've done work for New York Times, Vice News, The Wall Street Journal , Al Jazeera, PBS, Wisconsin Foodie , which is awesome. 
 
 
 Now, you made your own passion project.  Talk about the differences working for an outlet like that.  Does that give you more financial security whereas this is a passion project? - I mean, yeah, so basically with a film like this, I'm doing everything from producing, directing, I'm the sound guy in the field, I'm the camera man.  Whereas these things I'm getting hired to do, someone's paying me to do that.  I'm paying to make this film for three years.  But, you know, I got into this field to create stories that I'm passionate about, not just as a paycheck.  - You bring more to it when it's a passion project, opposed to when you're hired? I mean, I'm sure you do a good job, and you take it seriously, but is your soul more into this? - I probably wouldn't dedicate three years of my life and shoot 500 hours of footage and pay to do it for a client.  Whereas, in this, I think you do bring another level.  Working on this project, and the Hamilton family, since moving to Milwaukee I've probably spent more time with the Hamilton family than anybody else in my life.  I think for the last three years, I drove my friends and family crazy, because all I talked about was this story and this project.  That's literally consumed 100% of my brain space for years.  Even when I was on-- I mean, don't tell anybody-- but when I was on shoots for other clients, I'm sneaking away, doing emails, trying to set things up for another shoot.  - I'm gonna stop you there because this is on TV and I don't want them to hear that.  I want you to get hired again.  Let's look at a clip from The Blood is at the Doorstep .  [crowd chants] - Man: Be strong.  - Crowd: Fight back.  - Man: Where you gonna run in the face of injustice? How you gonna enjoy your chicken? Your brother just got killed.  - Take the bullhorn from him before I go off.  - And your sister just got killed.  And families ain't get justice. 
 
 
 Man, it's ridiculous.  You know what I mean? - Nate Hamilton: So, if y'all wanna go with Khalil, no problem with that, But the Hamilton family, myself and my mom, she wanna work her way back to Red Arrow Park.  - This ain't no conquer/divide.  If you with Khalil, go over there.  If you with me, come over here.  [yelling] - I'm with you.  I've been stomping in the streets, fighting for justice with you, to help Dontre Hamilton, moms.  - Woman: I don't know what you came out here for, but I came out here to stand with the Brown family.  Him and Dontre not coming back.  I have to live in this city, so if y'all wanna go, tear up, burn up, burn cars, do whatever, have your way.  - I'm not gonna let you assassinate the media like that, like we out here trying to mess up and burn up-- - Marsha Hamilton: I'm going back to Red Arrow.  And I'm going home.  [crowd cheers] - Man: I'm pretty sure around the world they would expect that a group of this magnitude to loot and steal and cause some type of damage, but damage is not gonna get us justice.  But. . .  we can't control people forever.  - Talk a little bit, Erik, about shooting a scene where tempers are flaring.  Like you have the scene, I think it was at City Hall, then you have another protest in the street, where we saw shots from Ferguson, where there are law enforcement.  You've been in those situations.  What are the challenges of shooting footage like that, when tempers are flaring on both sides, some people are probably armed, certainly law enforcement is. 
 
 
 It can be very dangerous.  As a film maker, what's going through your head? - You know it's tough to say because it's kind of an out of body experience a little bit.  I'm so focused on where the Hamilton family is, and technical things with making sure I'm getting my coverage that sometimes I'm a little bit removed from the situation.  When it comes to protestors, I felt completely safe the entire time.  I had spent a lot of time.  I was there months and months.  These were violent protests.  I never had any fear of my own personal safety.  There were some times there was. . .  Things did get a little physical and confrontational, but I never had any fear for myself.  Like I said, I was kind of in the mode of, like, this was bigger than myself.  I didn't have-- I wasn't really self-conscious at any point during the making of this.  I was a little bit overwhelmed with the gravity of the situation and the story, I was just doing my best to keep up with the Hamilton family and everything that was going on.  I never felt personally in danger or anything like that.  - You sound like a cinematographer because they're pretty fearless.  They'll throw themselves in anywhere to get the right coverage.  Talk a little bit about Officer Manney.  Did you have access to him? He's in the film.  - There was an interview that he did with a talk radio station in Milwaukee, so we used clips from that. 
 
 
 We did get him, just through open records, some of him.  When they had the appeal for his firing, he was on camera for that.  We did not interview him directly.  Early on, when we did a piece for The New York Times , we'd reached out to his people to get an interview, but at that point there was still a lot of legal things open for him, and it just wasn't smart for him to talk to us.  Yeah, we didn't talk to him directly.  We felt it was more important to hear from law enforcement in general.  It wasn't just Manney.  It was more of an institutional thing, so we did talk to the Police Senior President.  We did talk to Chief Flynn.  We talked to District Attorney John Chisholm.  So we did have quite a bit of access to both sides of the story.  We filmed police training and we did ride-alongs, as well.  - You certainly did, you covered just about every base.  That's why I was asking about Manney.  Talk a little bit about, you mentioned before you're from California.  Every once in a while I meet someone who leaves the West Coast to come to the Midwest to start a film career.  You talked a little bit about that when we spoke yesterday.  Expand upon that a little bit.  - Well, it's a little tongue-in-cheek.  I wasn't necessarily doing film when I first moved to Milwaukee.  That's the great thing about living in a city like this, in Milwaukee. 
 
 
 It's a lot cheaper living than in California.  Had I stayed in California, I probably wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now.  Having a lot cheaper rent and a lot cheaper expenses I was able to take a little bit of chances on myself personally, and dive into filmmaking head first, and see where it took me.  I'm really glad I ended up in Milwaukee because I don't think I would be where I'm at today.  - Well and you got Director's Cut here, too.  You don't have that in California.  - We don't.  It would've been a long flight.  - Good thing you ended up here.  Let's take another look at a clip from The Blood is at the Doorstep .  - Michael Bell Sr: I think I was like many of the white families out there.  I was kind of an ignorant professional.  - Nate Hamilton: We grew up a year apart.  - Oh, okay.  - So we were close.  - Michael Bell Sr: But when somebody gets killed by a police officer it's a foot race and whoever gets the information out first is the winner.  - Maria Hamilton: Alright, thank you, thank you.  You be safe getting home.  - Michael Bell Sr: I had a son, his name was Michael Bell, who was killed on November 9th, 2004.  He was coming home with a night out with friends.  Designated driver became intoxicated. 
 
 
 Michael's like, "You're too drunk to drive, "I'm gonna drive. " Michael was under the influence of alcohol, but you can look on the dash cam video, he was driving perfectly straight.  Pulled up in front of this house and just then, a squad car pulls up behind him.  My son got out of the car, because he was at his own home.  But the officer pulled up and said, "Get back in the car.  Get back in the car. " [recording of officer] According to officer testimony, he had saw this other guy in the front seat.  He grabbed Michael and took him around the back of the car and shoved him off camera.  - Michael Bell Jr: Don't tase me.  - Hands behind your back.  Hands behind your back now! [click] [Bell cries out in pain] Get hands behind your back right now! -Michael Bell, Sr: He got tased multiple times.  Ran to the back of the house.  Michael was accused of bull rushing an officer here.  This is actually the car that was here.  It hasn't moved in 10 years.  And, sadly, that's the area where Michael, ah, Michael died.  [inhales sharply] You can see, Michael was shot the morning of November 9, 2004.  On Friday, they already ruled it was justified.  Before crime lab reports were complete, before autopsy was complete, before witness statements were even taken, they held their own thing and they ruled it justified.  Here's a picture of Michael.  I'm a veteran and I always felt I was really a brother with law enforcement. 
 
 
 I was a captain, and this was my copilot, navigator, and boom operator at the time.  For 23 years, I go out and believe in a democratic principle just to come home and have a police officer kill my child.  Then think I'm going to get fair and due process and the door is pretty much shut in my face.  - That's really interesting what he says.  You have Mayor Barrett, Chief Flynn, you've got the DA Chisholm, all on camera.  I see so many docs where they have to put a Chyron up: "Calls to this office were not returned. " Why is it so hard for documentary filmmakers, and just answer this as best you can, to get access to the other side.  Is it because people feel like they have to pick a side and not treat every incident individually.  Talk about that a little bit.  - You know, I faced a lot of issues early on with this film.  I think the luxury of spending three, three-and-a-half years working on this, where I was able to knock down some of those walls initially.  I think being independent threatens a lot of institutional organizations because with the independence, I don't have to maintain a long-term relationship, where some of these news stations do.  I think a lot of them probably saw me as an activist and not a journalist or a documentary filmmaker because I was filming with protestors quite a bit.  They saw me with the protestors, and not necessarily an independent.  You know, I think it's really important to get everyone's viewpoint across in this film because you're hoping you're making a dialogue for the city.  I'm not trying to slam anybody.  I'm trying to say, "There's real problems here that aren't being addressed.  Everybody's washing their hands of it. " 'Hey, it's not our fault.  It's not our fault.  ' That's not helping anything, you know. 
 
 
" I'm really glad that some of those doors were opened to me.  I remember early on, we're filming at City Hall, and there was a time where Mayor Barrett was letting people in the office to film interaction with the Hamilton family and him.  I was not let into that, but all the other news stations were.  Even other news stations, people that had seen me at all these protests started sticking up for me, like, "Hey, he belongs to be here.  "He's been out here every time we have been.  You need to start letting him into these. " And that helped.  But, you know, Milwaukee's a small town.  We call it 'Smallwaukee. ' There's one degree of separation between everybody.  I've been in Milwaukee 10 years now, I know a lot of people.  Just being an engaged member of the community, I think, helped me get a lot of access to people, as well.  - You're not a psychologist, you're a filmmaker, but I'm gonna ask you this anyway.  Why do people feel like, I mean, sometimes police officers make mistakes, it's a high pressure job.  Sometimes citizens commit crimes against police officers or other citizens.  But why do you think, based on what you've been through, why can't people see other people's perspective? It goes back to the incident.  Why can't you take each incident? This guy made a mistake.  This guy made a mistake.  Why do people feel like they have to take a side? Does that make them feel secure somehow? What do you think? - You know, there's Black Lives Matter, Blue Lives Matter.  I think it's important: you don't have to choose a side.  You can be like, it's like, in certain instances, this could be. 
 
 
. .  You wanna start that one from the top? I'm sorry.  - Pete: Let's move on.  I'm fascinated when something like that happens and people go-- It's kinda like what your subject said there.  The father, the veteran, said, it's a race to the media, to get your story out first and define the narrative.  - Sure.  - Whereas you're telling a story from all sides.  - I'm glad you shared that clip, too, because Michael Bell was really an early inspiration for making this film, as well.  At the time this happened, I knew I wanted to be involved and make a film, but I didn't really know the Hamilton family, but I was keeping track a little bit about what was going on in Kenosha with Michael Bell.  That happened in 2004.  Dontre Hamilton was in 2014.  Up to that point, he'd been fighting for 10 years.  Eventually, he got this law passed, the Michael Bell Law, which mandated an outside investigation in officer-related deaths.  The law started here in Wisconsin.  It's the very first law of its kind in the country.  And Dontre Hamilton's case was the very first case in the country to be tried under mandatory outside investigation law.  That was another really interesting aspect.  This is a discussion that's happening nationwide, but really, right here in Wisconsin, it's kind of a litmus test for what's being tested nationally.  I think that's another important aspect.  People form judgments about these families that are involved in these things. 
 
 
 Even Michael Bell, a military man, white guy in Kenosha, he's gotten a lot of flak down there, saying he wasn't involved in his son's life and putting blame on him for what happened.  It's amazing what people feel comfortable saying online about these families that they don't know anything about.  - I guess that's what my motivation was for asking the question.  People just jump in and make assumptions.  But let's look at a clip from The Blood is at the Doorstep .  - Michael Crivello: Any reasonable officer would have had to conduct themselves as Officer Manney did.  [crowd rumbles] While we are united in our statement of no confidence as the Chief-- 99. 3% voted no confidence-- We are saddened by the loss of Mr.  Hamilton.  We have compassion for the family.  I have prayed for peace for the Hamilton family.  [crowd boos] - Crowd chants: No questions, no [inaudible].  - He's not paying attention.  He's playing on his phone.  - Chief Edward Flynn: I'm sorry if you find it offensive.  I'm keeping up with the developments of the shooting of a five-year-old, alright? Pardon me! [applause] - Woman: Because this is where the injustice take place.  - Khalil.  - The injustice takes place-- - Female reporter: What's your response to some of the people that thought you were being disrespectful by being on your phone and not being attentive? - Well, I was on my phone.  Yes, that's true.  I was following developments with a five-year-old little girl sitting on her dad's lap, who just got shot in the head by a drive-by shooting.  Now they know all about the last three people that have been killed by the Milwaukee Police Department over the course of the last several years. 
 
 
 There's not one of them can name one of the last three homicide victims we've had in this city.  Now there's room for everybody to participate in fixing this police department, and I'm not pretending we're without sin.  But this community's at risk alright, and it's not because men and women in blue risk their lives protecting it.  It's at risk because we've got large numbers of high capacity, quality firearms in the hands of remorseless criminals who don't care who they shoot.  - That was in national news.  I remember seeing that clip so I had to choose that one.  You got Mayor Barrett who stopped a crime in a parking lot and got beaten up.  That takes a lot of guts.  You've got Flynn, who is, Chief Flynn, who is under fire from his own union.  Do these guys-- Is it easier getting people like that to talk? They're not afraid of confrontation.  Chief Flynn doesn't seem to hide from people.  He seems to like to address the media, at least in my experience as a viewer.  Same thing with Barrett.  Were you hoping you could get them, that that would make things easier? - I think it was important to include their voices, for sure, and I'm glad that they eventually participated in the film.  I think early on, like I said, it's a little bit hard to get access to people, being an independent filmmaker because they don't know who I am, and they don't know if they can trust me.  I'm glad that they were able to participate.  I think a lot of these issues are very complicated in many aspects.  Flynn was kind of stuck between the union and protestors at times.  He was under a lot of flak from a lot of directions.  - Where are things at with the Hamilton family right now? I'm sure you never stop grieving, but can you give us an update on where they're at with everything? - I think that's an important aspect of the film.  In Ferguson, in Milwaukee, you see the officers kill somebody, and then you find out six months later, when no charges are filed against the officer. 
 
 
 There's this whole period in between that nobody gets to see what these families really go through.  Michael Bell, 14 years ago; He's still fighting for justice for his son.  The Hamilton family is doing the same thing.  They're fighting for other families and working with other families that are going through similar situations and trying to make sure this doesn't happen to another family.  - Has there been more recent news in regard to Officer Manney? What is he doing now? Is he a police officer in a different community? - Last I heard, he's living out of state.  I'm not really sure.  He has duty disability so I don't think he's able to work as a police officer because of PTSD from this incident.  - What's next for you as a filmmaker, Erik? - That's a good question.  Right now, I'm still grinding hard trying to get this film out there in front of people.  I'm really glad that Wisconsin Public Television is bringing it to the state.  This will be our broadcast premiere, I believe, so this will be the first time it will be on TV.  I know a lot of people in Wisconsin have been wanting to see it.  We've been doing one-off screenings all over the state.  It's hard for some people to make that so this is a great opportunity to get it out there to a wider audience.  We're just still getting the film out there, one city at a time, so it's been great.  - Well, you did a great job and it's our pleasure to have the film on Wisconsin Public Television.  - For sure.  - Thanks a lot for coming.  - Thanks a lot for having me.  - You bet.  Hey, and thank you for watching Director's Cut . 
 
 
 For more information on The Blood is at the Doorstep please go to wpt. org and click on Director's Cut .  While you're there, send us an email or find out how to submit a film.  I'm Pete Schwaba.  We'll see you next time.  Now sit back because The Blood is at the Doorstep on Director's Cut Presents starts now. ECHO is on.