you're in a hobo jungle,
it was terrible.
They like to glorify it today.
>> Welcome to Director's Cut.
I'm Charles Monroe-Kane.
That was a clip from
"Westbound."
The documentary chronicles the
life of hobo artist Adolph
Vandertie, the Grand Duke of the
Hobo Whittlers.
We're joined today by the film's
director, Jim Rivett, and the
film's producer, Shelly Young.
Thanks both for joining us
today.
>> Thank you.
>> First, Jim, to you.
Who was Adolph Vandertie?
>> Adolph Vandertie was
a resident of Green Bay,
a lifelong resident, who really
had a passion for hobos and the
culture of hobos.
He really started to collect and
really obsess on the artwork
that they produced, the
whittling and the tramp art.
>> How did you find Adolph?
How in the world would you know
that Adolph existed?
>> Adolph is kind of a legend in
Green Bay.
I knew of him when I was a
child.
My mother collected antiques, so
we would go to the large antique
show every year.
He would be set up, displaying
all of his work.
He would talk to anybody who
would listen about the artwork.
Never sold a piece, but would
always talk about the artwork.
Subsequently, Jim was friends
with members of the family.
And a few Christmases ago, a
family member actually surprised
him.
And his call out was, well,
how old is your grandfather.
Well, he's 94, or 95?
94.
The next day, Jim was on the
phone with me, Christmas day,
we've got to get there.
We've got to get over there.
We've got to go meet him.
We literally went with the idea
we were going to shoot a very
short, 30-minute interview.
The rest is history.
>> I have a question.
He's called a hobo artist, and
the Grand Duke of the Hobo
Whittlers, which is probably the
best title I can possibly
imagine being bestowed on
someone.
Was he a hobo?
From my understanding, he had a
family and he had a house.
I picture the stereotype of the
hobo, and he doesn't seem to fit
it.
>> Right, Adolph hung out in the
hobo jungles when he was a kid.
That's where he first saw hobo
whittling and he saw tramp art.
But what he did, was he did ride
the rails for a while.
I don't think he rode
extensively across the country
looking for work, but he did
ride the rails for a number of
years.
It wasn't a long period of time.
He really just adopted their
spirit.
He really took them in and could
relate to their life, because he
had a hard life.
>> Speaking of having a hard
life, one of the stereotypes
he does fit of a hobo is that
he was a hard drinker.
Tell me a little about that,
his drinking past, and how that
connects into your film.
>> Well, it was one thing that
I was really surprised about.
As an icon in Green Bay, and
outside of Green Bay, really
within the hobo culture and the
tramp culture,
he was the Grand Duke.
But we had never heard anything
about his alcoholism.
We had been at his house for
about 20 minutes, and he
proceeded to tell us that he was
55 years sober, which was an
astonishing fact in itself.
>> That's a big number.
>> It is a big number.
That's a long time without
a drink when you are a raging
alcoholic, is what I came to
realize.
But what it created in him was
this continual need to leave a
legacy, to make a life better
for his children, that did not
have a great life.
>> It looks like he did, because
the reputation that he has.
We have a clip from the film
that we want to show.
This one does address the
drinking.
I think it does show him being
honest about his own past.
This is another clip from the
film.
>> I think I can count on one
hand the number of days work
I missed because of drinking,
in my whole long career.
I took a lot of pride in that.
And I blamed myself all the
time.
I'd wake up in the morning and
I'd be so goddamn sick an
ordinary human being would've
stayed in bed.
But not me.
I said, you son of a bitch,
and so on.
I had good words.
You did it to yourself,
now get out and get to work.
I had a good woman
that protected me.
I didn't realize how much
I drank.
She had a favorite stunt
she'd pull on me.
And I never got wise to it.
See, I would stop in after work
sometimes, and I'd have just a
few cups.
And I'd come home to supper and
then I'd think, geez, I'd like
to go back to the saloon again.
Oh, so, she said, but she said,
you know, you look tired.
She said, why don't you lay down
on the davenport for a half hour
and you'll feel better.
And the next thing I know,
I wake up and the whole house
is dark.
And I look at my watch,
2:00 in the morning.
The saloons are all closed.
Art probably saved me from total
destruction.
That was the way I look at it.
Sooner or later, I was gonna
die, if I didn't change things.
>> Art changed his life.
I like that.
We understand who he is now.
But what I didn't know--
I've heard about hobos.
I know a little bit about hobo
life, but I've never heard
of whimsy art, or hobo art,
or tramp art.
What is hobo art?
>> Hobo whimsies are where they
take a solid piece of wood and
they do a reductive process and
remove the wood until there's a
ball left in a cage.
They do a lot of ornamentation
around it, but they do it with a
pocket knife.
And they do it without
any sandpaper.
They get this thing totally
polished.
They release that ball, and
that's the thrill.
That's what Adolph saw when he
was in the hobo jungles as a
child.
I think that's what hooked him.
>> Sure, and then there's other
forms of hobo art, as well,
right?
>> Hobo whimsies are the basic
one, then you get into tramp
art, which is made from cigar
boxes.
There's a differentiation
between the two.
>> That makes sense, because
there's a story about the cigar
boxes were the first--
cigars had to come in these
boxes, and you had this wood.
>> You couldn't reuse them.
But what happened with tramp
art, it was oftentimes given as
a way to reward or pay somebody
back if they gave you a meal or
if a woman fed you, they would
make a jewelry box for them, or
some sort of frame made from
these cigar boxes, and notch and
layer them, and create that kind
of artwork.
>> That's how it's entered in
our culture, right?
That's how people would see it
and know it, because maybe your
grandmother has this really
different shaped box.
Where'd you get that jewelry
box?
Oh, I fed a hobo a sandwich
X amount of years ago, and it
enters the vernacular.
>> The hobo art was really to
see if they could outdo each
other.
Okay, how many balls can you
release inside of that cage?
A lot of times, it's called
ball in cage.
>> How long can you actually
make these, how intricate,
how carved, how tiny.
>> And made from one piece?
>> One piece.
>> With only a pocket knife.
>> You said that when he was a
child, he would hang out in the
hobo jungles.
Can you describe for me what
that would've been like.
That must have been a huge
influence on him.
>> Well, we know where it was.
It was right across from the old
Fort Howard Paper Mill that was
called Shantytown near Allouez.
I remember as a kid a little bit
of the remnants of hobos hanging
out on the railroad there.
You'd see smoke coming up,
they'd make a fire.
But he would go there with his
friends and hang out.
That's where they would get
exposed to the carving.
>> But he was also, it was
really an area where transients
came.
There was a hierarchy within
hobo culture.
>> Sure.
>> There was a hobo, a tramp,
and there was a bum.
And you would go to the hobo
jungles, you would go to the
camps.
It was kind of like a stopping
point as they would ride the
rails.
They were always close to water,
so they could bathe, if they
chose to bathe.
They were also near the rail
lines, so they could hear the
train coming from miles away,
and they could prepare.
>> They slept there.
>> Yeah, they slept there.
>> I could imagine, as a young
man, it must have been a huge
influence on him, to hang out
with those guys, and then see
their art.
So later in life, this is what
he does, falls back on.
>> Right, but he did
start doing it when he was
younger.
He tried doing the art.
>> Right, he tried doing it.
He loved the stories, too, and
that's the beautiful thing about
Adolph.
When you start to really get
into the film, he's a
storyteller.
That's really what he is.
He talks about how they were
great storytellers.
Liars, but storytellers
nonetheless.
>> We have another clip from the
film I want to show.
This one is a beautiful montage
that explains what hobo and
tramp art is, and we get to see
some of it, which I think is
very exciting.
Let's roll that clip.
>> We're talking about somebody
who has really learned on their
own, apart from any other
tradition, and come up with a
style that's highly unique,
highly individualized and
created a visual vocabulary
that really doesn't have things
in common with other works.
>> Tramp art is a wonderfully
unique form of folk art.
It encompasses small pieces
of whittled wood, carved by
untrained artists with simple
tools.
It has three basic elements.
One is that it's made out of
wood, primarily the wood of
cigar boxes and packing crates.
Two, the wood is stacked into
layers as embellishment.
And three, the outer edge of
each layer is notch cut.
>> I believe that it began
right around the time
of the Civil War.
That's about as close as I can
date it, because my grandfather
made tramp art.
My grandmother used to get
pretty mad at him.
He's be sitting out on the porch
whittling when he ought to be
doing his farm work.
>> That is so beautiful.
All right, we have some of the
art here today.
We have some amazing stuff here.
I would love if you could show
me some of this.
Let's start with the box.
What I think is important here
to show on the box, is that this
is obviously from?
>> A cigar box.
>> That's obviously the inside
of a cigar box.
Tell me about this kind of box
first.
What kind of art is this?
>> It's called tramp art.
>> Okay.
>> It is a notch and carving of
thin pieces of discarded wood.
All of the notching and carving
is done with a single pocket
knife.
>> Wow.
>> No glue, no nails?
>> There are some tiny nails
that have to hold the pyramidal
design together.
But the interesting thing,
true tramp artists would go into
cobbler shops and steal the
tiny shoe nails, so they could
affix the wood together.
That would've been a sewing box.
>> Of course, a cushion for the
needles.
>> If you look at this, this is
actually built, these pyramidal
designs are built around the
bottom of the cigar box.
>> That's beautiful.
Then you have, let's go to these
first.
I'm going to hold this one up.
These are the whimsies.
>> Those are the hobo whimsies.
>> I'll do this so people can
see it here, that there's a ball
inside of it that moves.
It's all from one piece of wood.
These would just be whittled.
This is basically whittling
extraordinaire.
I've whittled before, but I
certainly haven't made this!
>> And what Adolph would do,
a lot of times, is he would hang
these from mobiles.
The bedroom was just full of
like 500 of these hanging from
the ceiling.
So they're moving around in
space.
Those are some of his more
freeform things he did a little
bit more in the '70s.
They're just real organic.
He would just draw them, he
wouldn't have a pattern or any
preconceived ideas.
>> You were telling me earlier
that these were, or that this is
garbage.
>> This is garbage.
>> Yeah, this is the stuff that
was thrown out.
>> Oh, my!
His garbage is better than any
piece of art I'll ever do in my
whole life.
>> That was going to go on the
curb.
These are a few of his knives.
>> It was interesting.
One of the things I really liked
in the film, as we open up a
pocket knife here, he went
through how many, he wore down?
>> Dozens.
>> He wore down dozens.
You can see, he wore down
knives.
That's a lot of carving.
>> Soft wood.
>> He had big tool kits just
full of knives.
>> What is it like for you?
I can imagine, I know what it
was like to interview him.
That must have been powerful.
But what was it like the first
time you walk in this man's
house, and discover thousands
and thousands of these pieces
of art that he made in his
lifetime?
What was it like for you, not as
filmmakers, just as people?
>> Just walking in the house,
it was so small, and to be
inundated with so much art
hanging from the ceiling and the
walls.
It was very unique.
It was like you wouldn't think
you would walk in and stumble
into something like that.
It was enchanting to meet him,
but also his environment.
>> Was it everywhere?
>> Everywhere.
>> And under the beds.
Not only were there great pieces
on display, but when he got to
the point where he could no
longer really whittle, and he
considered himself a whittler,
he was not a carver.
He would whittle.
He decided he wanted to collect
something else, so he started
collecting these tall ships,
you know, kind of duplicates
of tall ships.
He was showing us the house on
our first trip there, and he
opened up this huge old chest
freezer that was no longer
working.
And it probably had 40 of these
tall ships stored.
You would find this artwork
hanging from the ceilings with
wonderful spider webs and dust.
There's a cuff link.
>> He made earrings.
Shelly has a pair of earrings
with a little ball and cage.
>> This big.
>> So he had to use a really
tiny knife.
>> It's interesting, he never
sold these.
>> No.
>> That was like a rule for him.
>> He would gift a few of them
to some people lucky enough.
>> If you were lucky, you got a
small gift.
>> But he wouldn't sell.
>> Why do you think that is?
>> Well, we have what he told
us, and we have what we feel,
as filmmakers.
I really believe that when this
became his outlet, this is what
he turned to when he stopped
drinking.
It was the idea that I need to
become obsessive with something
else.
He became obsessed with the art
form.
As you begin to create and you
get better and better at
something, and you start really
seeing the art, now it's how do
I preserve it, how do I carry it
on, how do I leave, as we
mentioned earlier, the legacy?
>> That sets up our next clip
perfectly.
I did want to talk about his
legacy.
Let's roll another clip from the
film and then we can talk a
little bit more about his
legacy.
This is another clip from
"Westbound."
>> I think he was in awe of the
carvers that had come before
him.
And although he became
passionate and absolutely
prolific, I never once heard him
say that he thought his work was
nearly as good as any of his
heroes.
Adolph really was the first one
to dig in and say, this is
important.
This is part of our cultural
history.
This is a part of American life.
He's the historian of the hobo
and the tramp artists.
They didn't keep their own
history.
They didn't write it down.
They were living lives.
They weren't conscious of taking
a role in history.
If anything, they were looked
down upon by many members of
society.
>> Adolph was an important part
of this community.
People respected his work and
came to view his work.
That gave him also a sense of
importance, and rightfully so.
He never sold a piece.
He would never sell a piece.
>> He's interested in making
sure that this art form is not
forgotten, and that it can be
appreciated, and represents a
type of artist that maybe has
never been represented before.
>> I think what's amazing about
his legacy is that he's
self-made.
>> Subconsciously, I'm probably
aiming for that.
By insisting on this stuff
be preserved in a museum,
because if it falls to my kids,
it's going to be scattered
all over hell.
And it'll be completely
meaningless.
This is something that can
benefit them.
They can brag to their friends,
my dad has all this stuff
in a museum, you know.
They'll have something to brag
about, instead of the drunk
that I used to be.
See?
Now I'm still an old drunk
at heart, you understand,
but I'm improving some.
>> That is honesty from a great
artist.
Where is his collection today?
He didn't give any of it away.
He has thousands of pieces.
What happened to it?
>> Most of it is in the
John Michael Kohler Art Center.
He did sell most of that
collection.
He lived off of that money,
he and his wife did,
in small payments yearly.
But he also gifted a lot of it
to the Ashwaubenon Museum.
It was almost 1500 pieces of
his.
>> Wow.
>> His tramp art.
>> There were about 4,000
pieces.
>> Most of his tramp art,
I think is in Ashwaubenon.
But the Kohler has everything.
They even have his hat.
>> I'm definitely going to go.
Next time I go in that region,
I want to go check out the
exhibit.
I think that would be really
powerful.
One of the narrators says
in this great moment that,
"You carve your way
out of hard times."
I thought that was such a
powerful statement to say.
Do you feel that, when you look
at the art, do you feel that
he's carving his way out of hard
times?
Or is that just something that
people bring to it from the
outside?
He literally did, but how do you
look at that statement?
>> He did.
Adolph, not only was he a
recovering alcoholic, he also
quit smoking.
He was a three pack a day
smoker.
They lived, really,
an impoverished life,
and four children.
You know, he was a welder.
His wife Adeline stayed home.
So all he knew from the time he
was born, and growing up with a
divorced mother in 1920, which
is almost unheard of, he only
knew hardship.
So when he had an outlet, it
became all he could focus on,
beyond getting up every morning
and going to work, and being the
best father he could possibly
could be, as the man he was, it
was all about creating that art.
>> It was a meditative process
for him.
I think it really got him calmed
down.
It ramped him down.
It probably was almost like a
tranquilizer for him.
>> I agree.
>> It got rid of the stress that
he was feeling, especially if he
wanted a drink or have a smoke.
>> I don't want to over
extrapolate here, but speaking
about the fact that he wasn't
literally a hobo, or was only
for a short time, but it seems
like as he's carving, that he's
remembering that and being part
of that life, that he was a hobo
in his mind during those times.
Am I going too far with it, or
is that something you think?
>> He's being the persona.
I think he really adopted the
persona.
>> He was that persona while he
was whittling.
>> And they adopted him.
>> What happened there?
>> The moniker, it was really
interesting, because when we met
him, he kept talking about
Britt, Iowa.
What is Britt, Iowa?
Well, the National Hobo
Convention is in Britt, Iowa.
So we started doing some
research.
It's been going on for 100+
years.
He wanted to go back to Britt.
So we made it our goal that we
were going to take him back to
Britt.
>> He was 96.
>> You did it on camera.
It's actually very powerful.
>> Yes.
>> He was better than the rest
of us, traveling.
>> He kept going.
But the weirdest thing was that
we arrived, and there were women
standing on the street waiting
for us.
They knew he was coming.
They were crying.
They treated him like a rock
star.
It was unlike anything I have
ever experienced.
>> A folk hero.
He was really sort of a folk
hero.
>> And it was all attached to
the art, what he created, what
he was leaving behind as the
story of the hobo whittlers.
>> Let's see another clip from
the film, a great film of a
great man.
I think this one just kind of
gives us a feel of what his art
is like.
This is another clip
from "Westbound."
? ?
? I ain't got no money ?
? But I got a friend ?
? We've been ramblin' ?
? ?
? Ramblin' ?
? All around the bend ?
? We'll be ramblin' ?
? ?
? Ramblin' ?
? Through the end ?
? We'll be ramblin' ?
>> We'll be ramblin'.
Tell me about the music.
I really liked the music in this
film.
Where did it come from?
>> That's an interesting story.
We did a lot of work
with Steel Bridge.
One summer, I went up to the
Steel Bridge concert in Door
County, and started thinking
about how we could maybe get
connected to some musicians, and
met Pat MacDonald through a
friend who introduced me to him.
And started working on some
songs around them.
But then I met Victoria Vox.
She did the title opening song.
And that was, she did it over
her phone, did it like
a half an hour.
I said, yeah, I love it.
It was just great.
And all of a sudden, these
musicians all started coming
forward, volunteering all of
their music to the project,
which was great.
That was a high from it.
>> Do you think they knew who he
was, or they just liked the
idea?
>> Some of them met him.
Victoria came down.
Pat came over and jammed with
him.
Adolph got his little harmonica
out.
>> I can see that.
I can see Pat MacDonald meeting
Adolph, and that's that.
You're going to get some free
songs out of that.
>> We would get, it was really
interesting, because people
would meet him, and it was
immediately, what can I do, what
can I give you, how can we be a
part of this?
I think it was probably eight or
nine musicians, all of whom have
had some successes in their own
right, that just wanted to
continue to give.
Jill Sobule was a one-hit wonder
in the '80s.
Flew out from Los Angeles,
met him, sent us a song.
>> Wow, that's amazing.
>> And Pat has some of his cigar
boxes, and he's making a
purgatory harp from them.
He makes a guitar from these
cigar boxes.
He's got six of Adolph's.
>> They came out of his garage.
They came out of Adolph's
garage.
>> That's very cool.
>> If you ever see Pat play it,
it's amazing.
>> Since the making of this
film, Adolph has passed away.
Can you tell me about that?
>> You told the end of the film.
( laughs )
>> He did get to see the first
20 minutes of it, when he was in
the nursing home.
He only spent a month--
>> That's what I wanted to know.
I wanted to know if he got to
see anything.
>> Yes, he did.
He was only in a nursing home
for a month.
He stayed in his house for the
rest of the remainder of the
time.
But he got very ill from cancer.
He had bladder cancer.
But he got to see some.
Unfortunately, we didn't get the
whole thing completed for him
to see.
>> He got to hear some of the
songs.
>> Yes, he loved the music.
>> We have some beautiful
pictures of him and some of the
musicians visiting him in the
nursing home, coming to see him
one last time.
I think the irony of the whole
film is we knew that he was ill,
and we had finished all of the
interviews.
We interviewed 33 hours
with Adolph.
We wanted to pick up some final
shots.
We were in his home, which was
very close to our office, very
close to the nursing home.
We were going to leave the home
and go visit him in the nursing
home and got the call.
So we got to sit with him until
the end.
>> It was great.
>> Wow, powerful.
You know, we're talking about
legacies, and obviously, his art
is a legacy.
Your film is a legacy.
But what about the art form
itself as a legacy?
Does it continue, or is it done?
Is it a dying art?
>> There are artists who are
doing it, carvers, but you don't
see a lot of it.
You still run into a few pieces
in antique shops.
But you don't see somebody
reinventing and saying,
I'm doing this over.
If they are, it's not real
visible.
>> And not only is it not
visible, but what is very
interesting, is there are levels
of these artists.
You look at Adolph's work and
it's very fine.
>> Yeah.
>> It's very elegant.
And some of the work that you
see, they were truly untrained
artists, but they were
expressing themselves
nonetheless.
>> Thank you very much.
It was kind of an honor to watch
the film.
I think the idea of making a
documentary about one man and
his life, I really appreciate
it.
>> That's great, thank you for
having us.
>> Thank you very much for
watching Director's Cut.
For more information on
"Westbound," please go to:
www.wpt.org
and click on Director's Cut.
While you're there, send us
an email, because
we love hearing from you.
I'm your host,
Charles Monroe-Kane.
And for everyone here
at Director's Cut,
thanks very much.
Check the gate.
>> I'm not a religious man.
I have my own religion.
That sun up there, and the
earth, that's what I worship.
And I don't give a damn
who knows it.
And I've got proof that it's
there, too.
>> Funding for Director's Cut
is provided by the University
of Wisconsin System eCampus,
providing access to online
degree programs and certificates
offered throughout the
26 campuses of the UW System.
Information is at:
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