>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A
PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> YOU'RE WATCHING "HERE AND
NOW," 2024 ELECTION COVERAGE.
THE FITS AND STARTS OF
NEGOTIATIONS BETWEEN UW-MADISON
PROTESTERS AND THE
ADMINISTRATION AND YET ANOTHER
PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN VISIT TO
WISCONSIN.
THIS WEEK FROM JOE BIDEN,
COURTING BLACK VOTERS AND
ANNOUNCING MICROSOFT'S NEXT
PLANS FOR MOUNT PLEASANT.
>> BETWEEN NOW AND THE END OF
2026, WE WILL INVEST AND SPEND
$3.3 BILLION.
[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]
>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW,"
CAMPUS PROTESTERS AND UW-MADISO
ADMINISTRATION REACH ACCORD.
WE LOOK AT THE LONG-TERM IMPACTS
OF THE PROTESTERS' MESSAGE.
THE HO-CHUNK NATION VOTES TO
DECRIMINALIZE MARIJUANA.
WE SPEAK WITH THEIR ATTORNEY
GENERAL.
HOW SERVICES FOR SURVIVORS OF
DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE
WILL UNDERGO DEEP FUNDING CUTS
AND THE DIAGNOSIS OF EXCITED
DELIRIUM WHILE IN POLICE
CUSTODY.
IT'S HERE AND NOW FOR MAY 10.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN
>> THE TENTS ON THE UW-MADISON
CAMPUS ARE COMING DOWN.
STUDENTS FOR JUSTICE IN
PALESTINE AGREED TO CLEAR THE
PROTEST ENCAMPMENT, NOT DISRUPT
GRADUATION CEREMONIES THIS
WEEKEND AND NOT SET UP TENTS
AGAIN IN AN AGREEMENT WITH THE
UW-MADISON ADMINISTRATION.
FOR ITS PART, THE ADMINISTRATION
WILL SET UP A MEETING BETWEEN
PROTESTERS, THE UW FOUNDATION,
AND ALUMNI ASSOCIATION TO
DISCUSS HOW THE UNIVERSITY'S
ENDOWMENT IS INVESTED.
ONE OF THE PROTESTERS' DEMANDS
WAS FOR THE UNIVERSITY TO DIVEST
OF INVESTMENTS WITH ISRAEL.
>>Chanting: WE WANT JUSTICE...
>> WHEN NEGOTIATIONS BROKE DOWN
BETWEEN PROTESTERS AND THE
UNIVERSITY MID-WEEK, ABOUT 200
PEOPLE RALLIED AND VOICE VOICED THEIR
DISAPPOINTMENT OVER THE
CHANCELLOR SAYING SHE LACKED
AUTHORITY TO DIVEST OF
INVESTMENTS WITH ISRAEL.
BUT IN FOLLOWING DAYS, TALKED
RESUMED WITH THE UNIVERSITY
EAGER TO END THE ENCAMPMENT
WHICH WAS AGREED TO FRIDAY JUST
AHEAD OF GRADUATION CEREMONIES.
WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF
THESE PROTESTS AT THE UNIVERSITY
CAMPUS AND CAMPUSES ACROSS THE
COUNTRY?
UW-MADISON JOURNALISM PROFESSOR,
DOUGLAS McCLEOD, IS AN EXPERT
ON SOCIAL PROTESTS AND MEDIA
COVERAGE OF IT.
HE JOINS US NOW.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU.
>> SO YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT MEDIA
PRODUCE MESSAGES THAT SUPPORT
THE STATUS QUO WHEN COVERING
SOCIAL PROTESTS.
IS COVERAGE OF THESE PROTESTS
ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HERE
SUPPORTING THE STATUS QUO?
>> FOR THE MOST PART, YES.
MOST OF THE RESEARCH THAT WE'VE
BEEN DOING OVER 35 YEARS HAS
LOOKED AT SORT OF MAINSTREAM
MEDIA COVERAGE IN NEWSPAPERS AND
THEN SORT OF THE THREE-MINUTE
NEWS PACKAGES THAT ARE PRODUCED
TO COVER SOCIAL PROTESTS AND WE
FOUND JUST A VERY COMMON PATTERN
OF COVERAGE THAT SORT OF
TYPIFIES PROTESTERS.
WE'VE LOOKED AT LEFT WING
PROTESTERS, RIGHT WING
PROTESTERS, WE'VE LOOKED AT
ANTIWAR, ANTIGLOBALLIZATION
PROTESTS, BLACK LIVES MATTER
PROTESTS, AND SO WE'VE
DISCOVERED THERE'S A SORT OF
COMMON PATTERN WHEN IT COMES TO
SORT OF MAINSTREAM NEWS REPORTS.
>> SO IN THIS CASE, WHAT EVEN IS
THE STATUS QUO POTENTIALLY BEING
HEWED TO?
>> GENERALLY SPEAKING, THE
STATUS QUO WOULD REFER TO THE
POLICIES AND PROCEDURES OF THE
INSTITUTIONS OF POWER,
GOVERNMENT OR CORPORATIONS WHO
ARE OFTEN THE CHOSEN PARTING OF
PROTESTERS, BUT AS PART OF THE
PROTEST PARADIGM COVERAGE, THEIR
CHOSEN ENEMY IS OFTEN IGNORED
AND INSTEAD FOCUSES ON THE
ACTIONS OF THE PROTESTS AND ITS
FRAME IS KIND OF POLICE VERSUS
PROTESTERS.
AND IN THAT SENSE, THE COVERAGE
TENDS TO INSULATE THE
INSTITUTIONS LIKE GOVERNMENT OR
CORPORATIONS FROM -- FROM
CRITICAL COVERAGE OF SOME OF THE
POLICIES AND POSITIONS THAT THE
PROTESTERS WOULD LIKE TO RAISE.
>> AND SO IN YOUR MIND, AS AN
EXPERT RESEARCHER IN THIS FIELD,
WHAT IS THE DANGER TO KIND OF
CIVIC UNDERSTANDING IF IT'S
REALLY KIND OF ONE-SIDED?
>> I THINK TO SOME DEGREE, YOU
CAN KIND OF SEE SOME OF THE
DANGERS RIGHT NOW IN THE CURRENT
PROTESTS.
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF ATTENTION
ON POLICE ACTIONS ON CAMPUSES
AROUND THE COUNTRY, A LOT OF
ATTENTION TO ENCAMPMENTS BEING
REMOVED, A LOT OF ATTENTIONS TO
CLASHES BETWEEN PROTESTERS AND
COUNTER-PROTESTERS, BUT NOT MUCH
MAINSTREAM NEWS COVERAGE.
IT'S REALLY EXPLAINING, HEY,
WHAT'S THIS PROTEST ALL ABOUT?
WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA AND HOW
ARE THE PROTESTERS TRYING TO
EFFECT CHANGE WHEN IT COMES TO
THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE?
>> SPEAKING OF KIND OF THE
POLICE MOVEMENTS AROUND THESE
PROTESTERS, AS A FACULTY MEMBER
ON THIS CAMPUS, WHAT WAS YOUR
REACTION WHEN THE POLICE MOVED
IN ON THE UW-MADISON ENCAMPMENT?
>> THE CONCERNS ARE THAT SOME OF
THEIR ACTIONS AGAINST FACULTY
AND STUDENTS ARE SOMETIMES MORE
AGGRESSIVE THAN THEY MIGHT NEED
TO BE, AND I'VE HEARD SOME
CHARGES, AND I DON'T KNOW
WHETHER THEY'RE VALIDATE OR NOT,
THAT ON THIS CAMPUS AND
ELSEWHERE, SOME OF THE MORE SORT
OF AGGRESSIVE MEASURES TAKEN BY
POLICE OFFICERS ARE OFTEN
DIRECTED AT MINORITIES --
MINORITY STUDENTS AND
INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS.
>> HOW COMPLICATED IS THIS
PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTEST WHEN
SOME JEWISH STUDENTS EXPRESS
FEELING MARGINALIZED OR WORSE
AND OTHERS FEEL THEY'RE
EXPERIENCING ISLAMOPHOBIA.
HOW COMPLICATED WHEN PASSIONS
AND BLOODSHED IN THE MIDDLE EAST
COME TO CAMPUS?
>> YEAH.
THIS IS ABOUT AS COMPLICATED AS
YOU GET IN TERMS OF PROTESTS.
FIRST YOU START WITH THE ISSUE
IN GAZA AND IT'S NOT A SIMPLE
SOLUTION, IT'S NOT A CASE OF
THIS SIDE BEING RIGHT AND THIS
SIDE BEING WRONG.
IT'S VERY, VERY COMPLICATED,
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, THE PROTESTS ARE
TAKING PLACE RIGHT HERE AND
THEY'RE SORT OF DIRECTED MORE AT
THINGS LIKE UNIVERSITY
INVESTMENTS, THAT'S KIND OF A
COMPLICATED ISSUE.
THEY'RE MORE INDIRECTLY
CONNECTED, IN SOME TO THE
ROTESTS GOING ON IN THE
NORTHEAST AND TO SOME DEGREE IN
THE COVERAGE OF THE PROTESTS,
THAT SORT OF CONNECTION TO THESE
ISSUES TO SOME DEGREE GETS LOST.
>> SO DO YOU THINK THE STUDENT
PROTESTS MOVE PRESIDENTIAL
POLICY ON ISRAEL?
>> WELL, WITH ALL THE DIFFERENT
FACTORS THAT ARE TRYING TO SHIFT
PRESIDENTIAL POLICY, IT'S HARD
TO TRACE IT TO WHAT EXACTLY IS
DRIVING WHAT.
WE KNOW THAT PROTESTS CAN HAVE A
BIG IMPACT.
WE DON'T HAVE TO GO FAR BACK
INTO OUR OWN HISTORY TO THE
CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT IN THE
1950s AND '60s TO SEE THE
PROFOUND IMPACT THAT THAT KIND
OF SOCIAL PROTEST AND
DEMONSTRATIONS HAD ON AFFECTING
PUBLIC POLICY.
WE KNOW THAT IS THE CASE THERE.
I THINK HISTORY IS GOING TO HAVE
TO TAKE A LOOK AT THIS
PARTICULAR CASE TO SEE TO WHAT
EXTENT THE PROTESTERS THEMSELVES
HAS HAD AN IMPACT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
PROFESSOR McCLEOD, THANKS VERY
MUCH.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> HO-CHUNK NATION'S LEGISLATURE
MOVED TO DECRIMINALIZE CANNABIS
ON ITS TRIBAL LANDS.
IT'S A MOVE, THEY SAY, THAT
DOESN'T FULLY LEGALIZE
MARIJUANA.
STILL, IT RAISES LEGAL QUESTIONS
AS THE DRUG IS STILL ILLEGAL
FEDERALLY AND IN WISCONSIN.
JOINING US TO ADDRESS THESE
QUESTIONS IS THE HO-CHUNK NATION
ATTORNEY GENERAL, WILLIAM
GARDNER.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR INVITING ME.
>> TELL ME, WHY DID THE HO-CHUNK
VOTE TO DECRIMINALIZE CANNABIS?
>> IT HAS BEEN IN THE PROCESS OF
CONSIDERATION BY THE HO-CHUNK
NATION SINCE 2015.
IN 2015, THE GENERAL COUNCIL GOT
TOGETHER AND MADE A REQUEST THAT
THE LEGISLATURE CONSIDER AND
RESEARCH MOVING INTO THE
MARIJUANA FIELD IN THE SENSE OF
WHAT CAN THEY DO FOR ECONOMIC
EXPANSION.
AT THAT POINT IN TIME, THERE WAS
A START OF PROCESS AND THEN THE
COMMITMENT WAS MADE THAT THEY
WOULD CONTINUE TO DO THE
RESEARCH AND IN AN EFFORT TO PUT
THE NATION IN THE BEST POSSIBLE
POSITION ONCE AND IF ANY FORM OF
LEGALIZATION OCCURRED, THEY MOVE
FORWARD WITH THAT EFFORT, WHICH
HAS BEEN CONTINUING OVER THE
YEARS, WITH DECRIMINALIZING
MARIJUANA WITHIN THE HO-CHUNK
NATION STATUTES, MORE THAN
LIKELY TO BEGIN PREPARING FOR
THE POTENTIAL OF CHANGE OF THE
MARIJUANA RULES UNDER THE
CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE ACT FROM A
SCHEDULE 1 TO A SCHEDULE 3 DRUG.
SO IT'S ALL BEEN POSITIONING AND
THIS IS, FOR THE MOST PART,
GROUNDWORK.
>> HOW DOES DECRIMINALIZING
CANNABIS ON TRIBAL LANDS SQUARE
WITH STATE AND FEDERAL LAW UNDER
WHICH IT REMAINS ILLEGAL?
>> THE DECRIMINALIZATION, AS YOU
MAY KNOW OR AS OTHERS MAY NOT
KNOW, BASICALLY REMOVES THE
POTENTIAL FOR A CRIME VIOLATION
OR A CONVICTION OF A CRIME FROM
SOMEBODY WHO MAY BE ARRESTED OR
CHARGED WITH A CRIME UNDER THE
CURRENT CODES.
ALL OF THE ILLEGALITIES OF USING
MARIJUANA ARE STILL IN EFFECT
THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN, AS WELL AS THROUGH
THE HO-CHUNK LANDS.
BUT IF THE TRIBAL MEMBER IS IN
POSSESSION OF AN AMOUNT OF
MARIJUANA ON TRIBAL LANDS, THE
DECRIMINALIZATION AFFECTS THAT
INDIVIDUAL BY THE TRIBAL POLICE,
NOT FILING A CRIMINAL CHARGE
AGAINST THAT INDIVIDUAL AND THEY
WOULDN'T HAVE TO LOOK -- LOOK
FORWARD TO IS THE WRONG WORD,
BUT THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO WORRY
ABOUT GETTING A CRIMINAL RECORD
THAT MIGHT AFFECT EDUCATION OR
HOUSING APPLICATIONS OR THINGS
OF THE SORT.
SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE SEE
AS A BENEFIT TO TRIBAL MEMBERS.
BUT IT'S NOT IN ANY WAY BUMPING
SHOULDERS AGAINST LEGALITY.
WE'RE FULLY AWARE THAT MARIJUANA
IS STILL ILLEGAL.
>> DO YOU EXPECT THE HO-CHUNK
VOTE TO DECRIMINALIZE WILL KIND
OF HELP PROD THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN TO MOVE IN THE SAME
DIRECTION?
>> I KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME
TRIBES THAT ARE GETTING
THEMSELVES TOGETHER TO LOBBY IN
ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD, BUT I
THINK THAT IT'S GOING TO BE A
CONTINUING EFFORT TO TRY AND GET
SOMETHING DONE, PERHAPS IN THE
MEDICAL MARIJUANA FIELD, BUT I'M
NOT CERTAIN IT'S JUST THAT.
>> IS IT THE SENSE AMONG THE
TRIBAL NATION THAT
DECRIMINALIZING CANNABIS COULD
POTENTIALLY HELP REDUCE OPIOID
USE, THE ABUSE OF WHICH IS A
PROBLEM STATEWIDE AND FOR TRIBAL
NATIONS?
>> I THINK THERE'S A SENSE
GENERALLY ACROSS THE NATION
PERHAPS, I WON'T SPEAK TO OTHER
TRIBES, BUT THERE HAS BEEN
DISCUSSION HERE REGARDING
REPORTS THAT THOSE STATES THAT
HAVE OPENED UP WITH LEGALIZATION
OF MARIJUANA ARE BEGINNING TO
FIND THAT THE OPIOID USE THAT
THEY HAD HAD AT THE START OF
THEIR OPENING UP IS REDUCING AND
DROPPING DOWN.
THERE'S ALSO SOME ADDITIONAL
STUDIES THAT ARE BEGINNING TO
SURFACE DEALING WITH THE EFFECTS
OF MEDICINAL MARIJUANA AND
DEALING WITH VARIOUS HEALTH
ASPECTS, WHICH ALSO INCLUDE
OPIOID ADDICTION AND THINGS OF
THAT NATURE.
SO WE'RE WATCHING IT.
IT'S TOO EARLY TO TELL.
THERE ARE NOT A LOT OF STUDIES
BECAUSE, AS YOU MAY KNOW, THERE
ARE NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO CAN
DO STUDIES IN THIS AREA,
CONSIDERING THE ILLEGALITY
ACROSS THE NATION.
>> WELL, WE LEAVE IT THERE AND
WE WILL WATCH THIS AS IT
PROGRESSES.
ATTORNEY GENERAL WILLIAM
GARDNER, THANKS VERY MUCH.
>> GOOD.
THANK YOU.
>> A 70% DROP IN FEDERAL FUNDING
TO STATES TO HELP VICTIMS OF
CRIME HAS ADVOCATES WARNING OF
DIRE CONSEQUENCES.
THE GRANTS TO STATES FOR VICTIM
SERVICES ARE FUNDED THROUGH
FEDERAL FINES AND FEES PAID BY
PEOPLE CONVICTED OF A CRIME, BUT
THE FEDERAL FUND HAS SHARPLY
DECLINED, LEAVING WISCONSIN'S
ANNUAL FUNDING EXPECTED TO GO
FOR MORE THAN $44 MILLION TO
ROUGHLY 13 MILLION.
THE WAUSAU ORGANIZATION CALLED
THE WOMEN'S COMMUNITY, WHOSE
SERVICES HELP THOUSANDS OF
VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC ABUSE,
SEXUAL ASSAULT AND HUMAN
TRAFFICKING, FEARS THE LOSS OF
SERVICES.
ITS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, JANE
GRAHAM JENNINGS.
THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.
>> THANK YOU.
I'M HAPPY TO BE HERE.
>> SO WHAT IS THE EXPECTATION
ABOUT HOW THE DROP IN GRANT
FUNDS WILL AFFECT YOUR SERVICES?
>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE THING
ABOUT SERVING VICTIMS OF ABUSE
IS IT'S NOT JUST ONE COMMUNITY.
SO THE DROP IN FUNDS WILL
DEFINITELY IMPACT THE COUNTY
WHERE WE SERVE AND THE WAUSAU
COMMUNITY, BUT IT WILL IMPACT
EVERY COMMUNITY IN OUR STATE,
BECAUSE ALL OF THE PROGRAMS THAT
ARE CURRENTLY FUNDED WILL SEE A
SIGNIFICANT DECREASE STATEWIDE.
SO FOR THE WOMEN'S COMMUNITY IN
PARTICULAR, AND THE OTHER THING
THAT IS -- MAKES A LITTLE BIT
DIFFICULT FOR US TO PLAN IS WE
WON'T ACTUALLY KNOW THE TOTAL
DECREASE THAT WE GET UNTIL
AUGUST OR SEPTEMBER, JUST THE
WAY THE GRANT PROCESS WORKS.
SO WE WON'T REALLY KNOW.
IN THE BEST-CASE SCENARIO, WE
WILL BE LOSING ABOUT $234,000,
AND THAT'S JUST FOR THE WOMEN'S
COMMUNITY.
>> HOW DO YOU EVEN WEATHER SUCH
A LOSS?
>> WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO PLAN FOR
IT FOR A WHILE.
THE STATE ADMINISTRATORS HAVE
BEEN EXCEPTIONAL IN TRYING TO
KEEP US INFORMED AND PLANNING
FOR A WHILE.
THIS PROBLEM WOULD HAVE HAPPENED
A FEW YEARS AGO EXCEPT THERE
WERE SOME ARPA DOLLARS THAT THE
STATE WAS ABLE TO PUT IN TO PLUG
THE GAP.
SO THAT KEPT US OPERATING AND
BEING ABLE TO KEEP OUR SERVICES
OPERATIONAL FOR AN ADDITIONAL
TWO YEARS, BUT THAT MONEY IS
GOING AWAY, SO NOW WE'RE GOING
TO SEE THOSE CUTS.
SO OUR BOARD HAS BEEN PLANNING,
WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT, WE
HAVE SOME FUNDS FOR A RAINY DAY
AND THEN WE JUST SEARCH FOR
OTHER DOLLARS.
BUT AGAIN, WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY
HOW MUCH THAT IS GOING TO BE.
SO AS SOON AS WE KNOW, THEN
WE'RE GOING TO BE ROLLING OUT
ALL OF OUR PLANS.
>> HOW IMPORTANT ARE VICTIM
SERVICES AND WHAT ARE SOME
EXAMPLES OF WHAT COMMUNITY OF
WOMEN OFFERS?
>> SO WE WORK WITH ANYONE WHO
HAS BEEN A VICTIM OF DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE, SEXUAL ASSAULT, HUMAN
TRAFFICKING.
ADULTS, CHILDREN, MEN, WOMEN,
ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN IMPACTED.
SERVICES INCLUDE A NUMBER OF
THINGS.
ONE THING THAT PEOPLE ARE MOST
FAMILIAR WITH IS OUR SHELTER
SERVICE, AND THAT'S A PLACE
WHERE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN VIOLENT
SITUATIONS, TRYING TO FLEE, TO
MOVE INTO SAFE HOUSING CAN STAY
WITH US FOR A SHORT TIME IN
EMERGENCY SHELTER.
THAT'S GOING TO BE IMPACTED
DRASTICALLY BY THE FUNDING CUTS.
WE PROVIDE ONGOING SUPPORTIVE
ADVOCACY, BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE
HAVE BEEN HARMED BY SOMEONE THEY
LOVE, WHICH IS MOST OFTEN WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN SEXUAL ASSAULT, AND
IS THE CASE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING
IN DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, IT'S
REALLY A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE
AND PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE
OUT HOW TO SURVIVE AND HOW TO
REBUILD THEIR LIVES.
NO ONE WANTS TO COME TO SERVICES
LIKE THE WOMEN'S COMMUNITY
BECAUSE IF YOU NEED OUR
SERVICES, SOMETHING REALLY BAD
HAS HAPPENED TO YOU OR SOMEONE
YOU LOVE, SO PEOPLE COME TO US
AS A LAST RESORT AND WE WANT TO
BE THERE TO HELP REBUILD THEM.
THEY COME TO US FEELING BROKEN
AND ASHAMED AND JUDGED AND THAT
NO ONE BELIEVES THEM OR SUPPORTS
THEM, AND WE WANT TO HELP THEM
REBUILD THAT SPIRIT.
REALLY, THEIR SOUL HAS BEEN
CRUSHED BY THE TRAUMA THAT
THEY'VE EXPERIENCED AND WE JUST
TRY TO HELP REBUILD THAT.
WE OFTEN USE THE ANALOGY OF A
BUTTERFLY.
PEOPLE COME TO US AND THEY FEEL
LIKE THEY'RE THE SQUISHY UGLY
CATERPILLAR THAT PEOPLE JUST
WANT TO STEP ON AND THEN THEY GO
INTO THEIR COCOON AND THEN THEY
EMERGE BEAUTIFUL AND FREE AND
THAT'S THE PROCESS WE GET TO SEE
WHEN PEOPLE COME TO US BROKEN
AND THEY LEAVE US STRONG AT THE
BROKEN PLACES.
>> IS DOMESTIC AND SEXUAL
VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ON THE
RISE?
>> UNFORTUNATELY, IT IS.
THE MOST RECENT -- IN THE STATE
OF WISCONSIN, END DOMESTIC ABUSE
WISCONSIN, DOES A DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE HOMICIDE-RELATED
REPORT.
IN 2022, 96 PEOPLE IN WISCONSIN
LOST THEIR LIVES DUE TO DOMESTIC
VIOLENCE.
UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE ONE OF THE
TOP 10 STATES IN THE NATION THAT
HAS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF
DOMESTIC-RELATED HOMICIDES IN
THE COUNTRY.
SO THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WE
ARE PROUD OF AND WE'RE WORKING
REALLY HARD TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE
CAN MAKE AN IMPACT, BUT THERE'S
STILL SO MUCH BLAMING THAT IS
DONE.
VICTIMS ARE STILL BLAMED FOR SO
MUCH OF IT.
PEOPLE ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT
VICTIMS' BEHAVIOR, WHY DO
VICTIMS STAY IN ABUSIVE
RELATIONSHIPS, INSTEAD OF REALLY
ASKING THE QUESTION, WHY DOES
SOMEONE WHO CLAIMS TO LOVE HARM
THE PERSON THEY CLAIM TO LOVE?
THERE'S JUST NOT AN INCENTIVE
FOR PEOPLE TO BEHAVE BETTER.
WE NEED PEOPLE TO STOP BEING
HARMFUL.
>> WE HAVE MANY MORE QUESTIONS
BUT WE LEAVE IT THERE.
JANE GRAHAM JENNINGS, THANK YOU
VERY MUCH.
THANKS FOR YOUR WORK.
>> THANK YOU.
>> AN INVESTIGATION BY THE A.P.
AND PBS FRONTLINE REVEALED
POLICE AND MEDICS USING INJECTED
SEDATIVES TO DEESCALATE PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN DEEMED TO HAVE
SOMETHING CALLED EXCITED
DELIRIUM.
>> WE'VE NOW COME TO UNDERSTAND
THAT EXCITED DELIRIUM IS A
DEEPLY FLAWED CONCEPT.
IN MANY CASES, THE DEFINITION OF
EXCITED DELIRIUM WAS BUILT ON
RACIAL STEREOTYPES, AND PROBABLY
MORE FUNDAMENTALLY, EXCITED
DELIRIUM WAS A CONCEPT THAT, IN
MANY OF THESE CASES, SERVED TO
SHIFT THE FOCUS FROM THE ACTIONS
OF THE FIRST RESPONDERS,
RESTRAINT OR CHEMICAL SEDATION
BY THE POLICE OR BY E.M.S. TO
THE INDIVIDUAL FOR USING
METHAMPHETAMINE, FOR ENGAGING IN
CRIMINAL ACTIVITY, OR SUFFERING
FROM MENTAL HEALTH EMERGENCIES
IN SOME CASES.
>> THE USE OF MEDICATIONS IS
PART OF AN EXCITED DELIRIUM
PROTOCOL IN SOME DEPARTMENTS TO
RENDER THE PERSON COMPLIANT.
THIS IS OFTEN IN COMBINATION
WITH STUN GUNS AND PINNING
SUBJECTS FACE DOWN, BUT THE
COMBINATION CAN BE FATAL.
IT HAPPENED TO A MAN IN
EAU CLAIRE COUNTY AS DESCRIBED
IN THE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING.
EXCITED DELIRIUM REPORTEDLY
MARKED BY HIGH PAIN TOLERANCE
AND SUPERHUMAN STRENGTH IS A
CONTROVERSIAL AND DISPUTED
DIAGNOSIS AND SHOULD NOT BE USED
TO JUSTIFY USE OF FORCE AND
MEDICATION.
THAT'S ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT
GUEST, PSYCHIATRIST DR. JULIE
OWEN FROM THE MEDICAL COLLEGE OF
WISCONSIN.
DOCTOR, THANKS FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> WHY DO YOU SAY THAT EXCITED
DELIRIUM IS A DISPUTED
DIAGNOSIS?
>> EXCITED DELIRIUM FIRST CAME
TO BE DESCRIBED IN THE 1980s,
AND THAT WAS IN CONJUNCTION WITH
A RISE IN COCAINE USE.
THERE ARE VERY FEW PROFESSIONAL
MEDICAL ORGANIZATIONS THAT
ACTUALLY RECOGNIZE EXCITED
DELIRIUM AS A DIAGNOSIS, AND
WITHOUT THAT RECOGNITION AND
WITHOUT THAT CONSENSUS OF THE
MEDICAL COMMUNITY, THERE'S BEEN
A LACK OF TRUE DIAGNOSTIC
CRITERIA THAT FOLKS AGREE ON
WHEN USING THIS TERM, WHICH HAS
CALLED ITS USE INTO DISPUTE.
>> SO IF IT'S NOT EXCITED
DELIRIUM, WHAT ARE POLICE AND
FIRST RESPONDERS AND MEDICS
RESPONDING TO IN THE FIELD THAT
THEN HAVE THEM USING THESE
INJECTED SEDATIVES?
>> SO, OFTENTIMES, AN INDIVIDUAL
WHO MIGHT BE DESCRIBED AS
DISPLAYING THE FEATURES OF WHAT
HAS BEEN COME TO BE KNOWN AS
EXCITED DELIRIUM, THEY WILL LOOK
EXTREMELY AGITATED.
THEY WILL POTENTIALLY BE
BEHAVING IN A BIZARRE MANNER.
THE LITERATURE THAT HAS LOOKED
AT THIS SYNDROME HAS DESCRIBED
THINGS LIKE INCREASED PAIN
TOLERANCE, THE INDIVIDUAL
LOOKING SWEATY, THE INDIVIDUAL
BREATHING RAPIDLY, AN INDIVIDUAL
WHO LOOKS LIKE THEY DON'T REALLY
GET TIRED DESPITE A LOT OF
PHYSICAL EXERTION, AND SOMETIMES
THE LITERATURE ALSO DESCRIBES
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE NOT
NECESSARILY COMPLYING WITH LAW
ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL ORDERS,
AND/OR BEING INAPPROPRIATELY
CLOTHED.
>> IN YOUR RESEARCH, WHAT DID
YOU FIND ABOUT THE OUTSIDES
DIAGNOSIS OF THIS EXCITED
DELIRIUM IN BLACK OR BROWN
POLICE SUBJECTS?
>> USUALLY, THERE'S A SKEWING OF
THE USE OF THIS TERM WITH YOUNG
MEN, YOUNG MEN OF COLOR, AND
YOUNG MEN OF COLOR WHO PROBABLY,
AT A LATER PHASE OF EXAMINATION,
ARE FOUND TO BE UTILIZING SOME
SORT OF WHAT WE CALL SYMPATHY
MEDIC OR A STIMULANT-TYPE
SUBSTANCE.
>> INVESTIGATION NARROWED IN ON
THE USE OF INJECTED DRUGS LIKE
KETAMINE BY POLICE AND MEDICS.
WHAT'S YOUR VIEW OF THAT USE?
>> I WORK IN THE HOSPITAL
SETTING.
IN THE HOSPITAL SETTING, IF AN
INDIVIDUAL PRESENTS WITH
AGITATION, TYPICALLY THE BEST
ACCEPTED PRACTICE IS AS A
PHYSICIAN TO EVALUATE THAT
PERSON AND TRY TO DETERMINE WHAT
IS THE MOST LIKELY CAUSE OF THAT
PERSON'S AGITATION AND
MEDICATIONS ARE USED AS A TOOL
THEN TO TREAT AND RELIEVE THAT
PERSON OF THAT AGITATED STATE.
SO THE USE OF MEDICATIONS IN AND
HAVE THEMSELVES IS NOT
NECESSARILY PROBLEMATIC.
IT'S THE USE OF A MEDICATION
WITH OFTENTIMES VERY INCOMPLETE
DATA AND WITH DIFFERING
PROTOCOLS AND DOSING AND, AGAIN,
SORT OF STARTING WITH THAT NOT
TRULY A MEDICAL DIAGNOSTIC TERM
TO SORT OF DRIVE THE
INTERVENTION OR THE CHOICE OF
THE INTERVENTION THAT SEEMS TO
BE PROBLEMATIC IN THESE CASES.
>> HOW TROUBLING IS IT TO YOU
THAT EXCITED DELIRIUM MIGHT BE
USED AS A JUSTIFICATION FOR USE
OF FORCE OR INJECTIONS OF
KETAMINE?
>> IT IS TROUBLING.
AND AGAIN, I THINK, YOU KNOW, AS
A PHYSICIAN AND AS A PHYSICIAN
WHO PRACTICES AND IN SOLELY OR
EMERGENT ACUTE SETTINGS, THIS
SORT OF CASE IS HARD FOR
SOMEBODY LIKE MYSELF TO TRY TO
GET TO THE BOTTOM OF, AND WHEN
YOU HAVE FOLKS WHO DON'T HAVE
THE SAME AMOUNT OF CLINICAL
TRAINING SORT OF THROWING OUT
TERMS THAT SOUND LIKE DIAGNOSES
TO THEN DRIVE INTERVENTIONS WITH
QUESTIONABLE SAFETY INVOLVED,
AND, OF COURSE, WHEN THESE
INTERVENTIONS RESULT IN LETHAL
OUTCOMES WHEN REALLY THAT'S
PROBABLY NOT NECESSARY, THAT IS
DISTURBING.
>> YOU SAY THAT IT IS IMPERATIVE
TO FIND CONSENSUS AMONG MEDICAL
PROFESSIONALS AROUND THE
DIAGNOSIS OF EXCITED DELIRIUM.
HAS THAT YET BEEN FOUND, THAT
ONSENSUS?
>> NO.
>> AND ARE MORE PEOPLE LIKE
YOURSELF TALKING ABOUT IT?
>> I THINK SO.
WE -- YOU KNOW, AGAIN, MY
PRACTICE CLINICALLY IS WORKING
SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH
EMERGENCY MEDICINE PHYSICIANS
AND THAT SORT OF CROSS SPECIALTY
COLLABORATION AND COLLABORATION
OF EXPERTISE IN THIS SPACE, I
THINK THAT'S WHAT'S NECESSARY TO
REALLY FIND, AGAIN, CONSENSUS,
BUT A REAL CLEAR SENSE OF WHAT
IT IS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO
ACCOMPLISH WITH UTILIZING TERMS
LIKE THIS OR TRYING TO
CATEGORIZE CLINICAL
PRESENTATIONS LIKE THIS.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE LEAVE IT THERE.
DR. JULIE OWEN, THANKS VERY
MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> FOR MORE ON THIS AND OTHER
ISSUES FACING WISCONSIN, VISIT
OUR WEBSITE AT PBS PBSWISCONSIN.ORG
AND THEN CLICK ON THE NEWS TAB.
THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.