OUR FIRST GUEST TONIGHT
IS A FORMER MARINE CORPS
INTELLIGENCE OFFICER AND MEMBER
OF THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES
COMMITTEE.
REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN MIKE
GALLAGHER FROM THE 8TH DISTRICT
JOINS US FROM GREEN BAY.
CONGRESSMAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH
FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> ONE MONTH INTO THE WAR IN
UKRAINE, WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO
THE HORROR THAT'S GOING ON?
>> WELL, THEY'VE FAILED WHICH IS
A DEVELOPMENT WE WELCOME, BUT
NOW I FEAR WE'RE SETTLING INTO A
WAR OF ATTRITION THAT NOT ONLY
IS GOING TO BE VERY COSTLY IN
TERMS OF SLAUGHTER AND LIVES
LOST, BUT IT'S STILL AN
UNCERTAIN OUTCOME.
THOUGH IT SEEMS UNLIKELY THAT
PUTIN COULD CONSOLIDATE ANY SORT
OF CONTROL OVER THE ENTIRE
COUNTRY, HE COULD EFFECTIVE
DISMEMBER THE COUNTRY WHICH
WOULD BE A BAD OUTCOME FOR THE
UKRAINIAN PEOPLE AS WELL AS GIVE
THEM A PLATFORM TO THREATEN NATO
MORE IN THE FUTURE.
WE'RE STILL IN THE EARLY STAGES
OF THIS' WND --
>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A
PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> RUSSIA'S WAR ON UKRAINE
SURPASSES ONE MONTH, AS THE
CARNAGE CONTINUES.
AND RUSSIA WON'T RULE OUT
CHEMICAL AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT RULES ON
THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF
WISCONSIN'S LATEST VOTING MAPS.
AND FENTANYL TESTING STRIPS
BECOME LEGAL IN WISCONSIN.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW,"
WISCONSIN'S DELEGATION PUNISHED
PUTIN ON DIFFERENT FRONTS.
CONGRESSMAN MIKE GALLAGHER AND
RON KIND JOIN US.
SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER ZAC
SCHULTZ EXPLAINS THE HIGH
COURT'S RULING ON REDISTRICTING.
AND THE REALITY OF LIVES SAVED
BY DETECTING FENTANYL IN DRUGS.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR
MARCH 25.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.
>> IF CHEMICAL WEAPONS WERE USED
IN UKRAINE, WOULD THAT TRIGGER A
MILITARY RESPONSE FROM NATO?
>> IT WOULD TRIGGER A RESPONSE
IN KIND.
>> PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN
ADDRESSING REPORTERS IN BRUSSELS
YESTERDAY AS HE MET WITH NATO
LEADERS.
MORE THAN 3 1/2 MILLION
UKRAINIANS HAVE FLED THE COUNTRY
AND THE UNITED STATES IS NOW
PREPARED TO ACCEPT 100,000 OF
THEM.
THIS AS A RUSSIAN SPOKESPERSON
SAYS THE COUNTRY HAS NOT RULED
OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF CHEMICAL
OR NUCLEAR WEAPONS.
OUR FIRST GUEST IS A FORMER
MARINE CORPS INTELLIGENCE
OFFICER AND MEMBER OF THE HOUSE
ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE.
REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN MIKE
GALLAGHER FROM THE 8TH DISTRICT
JOINS US FROM GREEN BAY.
CONGRESSMAN, THANKS VERY MUCH
FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>
>> SO ONE MONTH INTO THE WAR IN
UKRAINE, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION
TO THE HORROR OF WHAT'S GOING
ON?
>> EL WITH, WELL, NOW I FEAR WE'RE
SETTLING INTO A WAR OF ATTRITION
THAT NOT ONLY IS GOING TO BE
VERY COSTLY IN TERMS OF
SLAUGHTER AND LIVES LOST, BUT
IT'S STILL AN UNCERTAIN OUTCOME.
THOUGH IT SEEMS UNLIKELY THAT
PUTIN COULD CONSOLIDATE ANY SORT
OF CONTROL OVER THE ENTIRE
COUNTRY, HE COULD EFFECTIVELY
DISMEMBER THE COUNTRY WHICH
COULD BE A BAD OUT COME FROM THE
UKRAINIAN PEOPLE AS WELL AS TO
GIVE HIM A PLATFORM TO THREATEN
NATO IN THE FUTURE.
SO I THINK WE'RE IN THE EARLY
STAGES OF THIS AND WE NEED TO
CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER WE CAN
TO PROVIDE LETHAL ASSISTANCE IN
PARTICULAR TO THE UKRAINIANS WHO
ARE FIGHTING VERY, VERY BRAVELY.
>> AS TO THE THREAT OF CHEMICAL
WEAPONS, HE SAID QUOTE ALLIES
WOULD RESPOND IN KIND.
FIRST WHAT KIND OF CHEMICALS
WEAPONS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
>> WELL, IT COULD BE ANY NUMBER
OF THINGS.
YOU COULD IMAGINE PUTIN STRIKING
TARGETS ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE
THAT COULD HAVE A FALLOUT, A
BIOLOGICAL FALLOUT, YOU COULD
HAVE DIRTY BOMBS, OBVIOUSLY IT
COULD ESCALATE ALL THE WAY UP TO
NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND THEN IN
SYRIA, WE'VE SEEN HIM BASICALLY
USE THE COUNTRY AS A LAVATORY
FOR HOW TO INTEGRATE CHEMICAL
AND BIOLOGICAL WAR FAR IN
PARTNERSHIP WITH THE ASSAD
REGIME AT VARIOUS TIMES AS USED
SUCH WEAPONS WHICH IS THE LAST
TIME A DEMOCRAT ADMINISTRATION
HAS SET RED LINES.
NOW THAT THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION HAS SET IT, HE
BETTER BE PREPARED TO BACK IT
UP.
NOW, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD
ALLOW THE FEAR OF ESCALATION TO
DOMINATE OUR ACTIONS, IN FACT, I
THINK THAT'S PART OF WHY WE GOT
INTO THIS CRISIS IN THE FIRST
PLACE, IS WE WERE SO AFRAID OF
PROVOKING PUTIN THAT THAT WAS
USED AS AN EXCUSE TO DO NOTHING
AND TO DELAY ASSISTANCE TO THE
UKRAINIANS, SO WE WANT TO SHIFT
THE DYNAMIC AND MAKE SURE THAT
IT'S PUTIN WHO FEARS OUR
RETALIATION AND THAT'S THE ONLY
WAY WE'LL BE ABLE TO RESTORE
SOME SEMI SEMBLANCE OF DETERRENCE IN
UKRAINE.
>> MEANWHILE, HOW MUCH FIREPOWER
HAS THE U.S. SENT TO UKRAINE AND
IS IT ENOUGH IN YOUR MIND?
>> WELL, WE RECENTLY PASSED A
OVER $10 BILLION PACKAGE.
NOW, NOT ALL OF THIS HAS
MANIFESTED ITSELF IN TERMS OF
JAVELINS, STINGERS, SNIPER
REIEFLS, BODY ARMOR, THINGS LIKE
THAT, THERE'S MUCH MORE WE CAN
DO, BUT WE ARE FINALLY WAKING UP
TO THE THREAT AND DOING A LOT
MORE TO PROVIDE LETHAL
ASSISTANCE.
THE AREAS WHERE I THINK WE CAN
STILL DO MORE, ONE, I THINK WE
SHOULD FIND A WAY TO TAKE
SLOVAKIA UP ON ITS OFFER TO
PROVIDE THE S300 SYSTEM TO
UKRAINE AND FIND A WAY TO
BACKFILL THEIR AIR DEFENSE
SYSTEMS.
I WAS IN FAVOR OF PROVIDING THE
POLISH MIGS.
I'M NOT OPTIMISTIC THE PRESIDENT
WILL FIND A SLAWTION FOR THAT OR
CHANGE COURSE ON THAT DESPITE
HIS VISIT TO POLAND, BUT THE
POINT REMAINS, I THINK THERE ARE
MORE CREATIVE OPTIONS IN
PARTNERSHIP WITH OUR NATO ALLIES
WHERE SHORT OF A NO-FLY ZONE, WE
CAN STILL GIVE THE UKRAINIANS
THE TOOLS THEY NEED TO PROTECT
THEMSELF FROM ATTACKS FROM THE
SKY AS WELL AS OTHER FORMS OF
RUSSIAN WEP RE.
>>ONRY.>> WHAT ARE YOUR CONCERNS THAT
CHINA STARTS HELPING YOU RUSSIA?
>> I THINK THAT'S THE MOST
IMPORTANT NEXT PHASE OF THIS
CONFLICT.
PRIOR TO THE INNOVATION AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE OLYMPICS, THEY
SIGNED THIS 5,000 WORD PLEDGE OF
FRIENDSHIP WITHOUT LIMITS.
WE'VE HEARD VARIOUS REPORTS THAT
CHINA IS CONSIDERING PROVIDING
LETHAL ASSISTANCE TO RUSSIA,
GIVING THEM A LIFE LINE.
WE NEED TO BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR
THAT IF THE CHINESE DECIDE TO DO
THAT, THEN THERE WILL BE
CONSEQUENCES, WE WILL PUNISH
THEM, WE SHOULD CUT OFF THE
EXPORT SEMICONDUCTOR
SUBCOMPONENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
CHINA RELIES UPON.
WE SHOULD ALREADY BE DELISTING
CHINESE COMPANIES THAT ARE
TRYING TO LIST ON AMERICAN
EXCHANGES.
OUR SEC IS REMARKABLY STILL
NEGOTIATING WITH THE CHINESE
OVER SOME ACCOUNTABILITY
STANDARDS, THESE ARE A JOKE
RIGHT NOW.
SO RUSSIA AND CHINA HAVE DECIDED
TO PARTNER IN LAUNCHING THIS NEW
COLD WAR AGAINST AMERICA AND THE
WEST, WE NEED TO START
RECOGNIZING THAT IN ORDER TO
START PUSHING BACK.
>> AS A MILITARY EXPERT, DO YOU
THINK THIS COULD BECOME WORLD
WAR THREE?
WHERE WILL PUTIN STOP?
>> WELL, THERE'S ALWAYS THE
DAINGDANGER THAT ONCE YOU UNLEASH THE
DOGS OF WAR, YOU DON'T KNOW
WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.
WAR IS COMPLEX, THE FOG OF WAR
IS THICK RIGHT NOW.
THE SIMPLEST THING BECOMES VERY
DIFFICULT.
SO WE DON'T KNOW.
WE DO NOT KNOW, WE SHOULD BE
COGNIZANT OF THE RISK OF
ESCALATION, BUT I BELIEVE OUR
BEST CHANCE TO NOT ONLY AVOID
WORLD WAR THREE BUT TO ALSO HELP
PRESERVE SOME SEMBLANCE OF A
FREE UKRAINE IS TO INVEST IN
HARD POWER WITH OUR ALLIES.
WE LEARNED THE HARD WAY IN
UKRAINE THAT SANCTIONS ALONE DO
NOT DETER, #DIPLOMACY DOES NOT
DETER.
DETERRENCE DEPENDS ON AMERICAN
LEADERSHIP AND HARD POWER,
THAT'S NOT JUST IN UKRAINE,
THAT'S THE LESSON WE NEED TO
LEARN AND APLAY TO TAIWAN GOING
FORWARD BUT WE ACTUALLY SEE A
WORLD WAR THREE FOUGHT OVER THE
CHINESE INNOVATION OF TAIWAN.
>> WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO SOME
REPUBLICANS INCLUDING FORMER
PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO SEEM TO HAVE
BEEN PRAISING PUTIN?
>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY PUTIN IS A
KGB THUG AND A DICTATOR, AND
THERE'S A STRAIN OF THINKING ON
THE RIGHT AND LEFT THAT SUGGESTS
WE CAN SHOWL SOMEHOW PEEL THE RUSSIANS
OFF FROM THE CHINESE AND PARTNER
WITH THEM OVER THE LONG TERM TO
PUSH BACK AGAINST CHINA.
IF THAT WERE POSSIBLE, IT WOULD
BE WORTH CONSIDERING BUT IT'S
NOT POSSIBLE.
PUTIN HAS NO INTEREST IN
COOPERATING WITH US, OUR
INTERESTS DON'T ALIGN, AND HE IS
OBVIOUSLY AS I SAID AT THE START
A KGB THUG.
IN THIS SAME INTERVIEW, I
BELIEVE PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID
THIS NEVER WOULD HAVE HAPPENED
IF HE WAS STILL PRESIDENT.
HE MAY HAVE HAD A POINT THERE
BECAUSE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN FOR
FOUR YEARS WHEN TRUMP WAS
PRESIDENT.
I GUESS THAT'S THE
COUNTERFACTUAL WE'LL NEVER GET
TO PLAY OUT, BUT PUTIN IS A THUG
AND THE ONLY LANGUAGE HE
UNDERSTANDS IS THAT OF HARD
POWER.
>> CONGRESSMAN MIKE GALLAGHER,
THANKS VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> OUTSIDE OF MILITARY FORCE,
PRESIDENT BIDEN IS MEETING WITH
A GROUP OF SEVEN LEADERS TO
DISCUSS FURTHER ECONOMIC
SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA AND
PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN.
OUR NEXT GUEST COMES FROM AN
ECONOMIC BACKGROUND AND HAS BEEN
VOTING FOR MEASURES TO APPLY
PRESSURE ON RUSSIA'S POCKETBOOK.
DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN FROM THE
THIRD DISTRICT, RON KIND, JOINS
US NOW FROM LACROSSE.
CONGRESSMAN, THANKS VERY MUCH
FOR BEING HERE.
>> HI, FRED.
GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.
>> SO WHAT IS YOUR REACTION AS
THIS WAR GRINDS INTO ITS SECOND
MONTH NOW?
>> WELL, I THINK VLADIMIR PUTIN
HAS MADE PERHAPS THE BIGGEST
STRATEGIC MISTAKE OF THE 21ST
CENTURY.
HE WAS EXPECTING A DIVIDED
UKRAINE, DIVIDED EUROPE, DIVIDED
NATO AND A DIVIDED UNITED STATES
AND INSTEAD HE GOT EXACTLY THE
OPPOSITE.
I COMMEND PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR
UNIFYING THE FREE WORLD IN SHORT
ORDER TO STAND UP AGAINST
PUTIN'S ILLEGAL AGGRESSION, BUT
IT WAS ALSO HELPFUL HAVING A
VERY COURAGEOUS, STRONG LEADER
IN PRESIDENT ZELENSKY, LEADING
THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE AND WHAT
WE'VE SEEN FROM THEM THESE LAST
FEW WEEKS.
SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE END
GAME LOOKS LIKE BUT I THINK IT'S
GOING TO LOOK VERY BAD FOR PUTIN
AND HIS RUSSIAN MILITARY.
>> PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID WE WOULD
RESPOND IN KIND IF RUSSIA
DEPLOYED CHEMICAL WEAPONS.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> A LITTLE STRATEGIC AMBIGUITY
IS NOT A BAD THING IN THIS TYPE
OF SITUATION.
WE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THAT'S
STEPPING OVER A VERY DANGEROUS
LINE AND THERE WOULD BE SEVERE
CONSEQUENCES.
I DON'T THINK VLADIMIR PUTIN
WANTS TO TEST US ON THAT.
I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO BE
HAPPY WITH OUR REACTION OR THE
REST OF THE WORLD'S REACTION IF
HE GOES THAT FAR.
>> DO YOU THINK THIS COULD BLOW
INTO WORLD WAR THREE?
>> I CERTAINLY HOPE NOT.
I MEAN, A NO-FLY ZONE WOULD BE
WORLD WAR THREE, AND I THINK
THAT'S WHY PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS
BEEN CLEAR THAT HE'S NOT GOING
TO HAVE THE U.S. IMPLEMENT A
NO-FLY ZONE.
AND BESIDES, THERE ARE BETTER
MILITARY TOOLS WE'RE GIVING YOU THE
UKRAINIAN ARMY TO CONTROL THE
AIR SPACE, FROM THE STINGER AND
THE S300s RIGHT NOW.
PLUS THEY'RE MORE MOBILE.
THESE JETS FROM POLAND, YOU NEED
LANDING STRIPS, CREW, FUEL
LINES, TRAINED PILOTS, AND
RUSSIA DOES HAVE A VERY
EFFECTIVE ANTI-AIR DEFENSE
SYSTEM.
SO I THINK WHAT WE'RE DOING NOW
IS ABOUT THE BEST WE CAN DO TO
HARM THE UKRAINIAN ARMY TO KNOCK
SOME OF THE RUSSIAN PLANES AND
HELICOPTERS OUT OF THE SKY.
>> SO THE OTHER PRESS ON THE
PART OF THE U.S. AND NATO ALLIES
IS INCREASING SANCTIONS.
TO BAND THINGS LIKE FREEZING
RUSSIAN ASSETS AND SEIZING THESE
OLIGARCHS' YACHTS.
HOW EFFECTIVE ARE THESE KINDS OF
SANCTIONS?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN A THREE
FOLD RESPONSE, NOT ONLY
PROVIDING MILITARY AND
HUMANITARIAN AID TO THE
UKRAINIAN PEOPLE AND THE FREE
WORLD IS STANDING UP AND DOING
THAT, BUT THE UNPRECEDENTED
ECONOMIC SANCTIONS THAT
PRESIDENT BIDEN LED AND PUT INTO
PLACE.
I WAS IN LONDON WITH THE
HIGH-TECH BAN, SOFTWARE,
MICROCHIPS, MICROPROCESSORS, WE
KNOW THE WORLD RUNS ON
MICROCHIPS TODAY.
THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A VERY
HEAVY TOLL ON THE RUSSIAN
ECONOMY, AND ESPECIALLY THE
RUSSIAN MILITARY.
THAT NEEDS THAT AND SPARE PARTS.
THE BIG MISSING INGREDIENT RIGHT
NOW IS THE ENERGY RESOURCES THAT
RUSSIA SUPPLIES WESTERN EUROPE.
AND WE'RE HARD AT WORK, IN FACT,
PRESIDENT BIDEN JUST ANNOUNCED A
MAJOR LIQUEFIED NATURAL GAS
AGREEMENT WITH EUROPE.
THEY'RE DEPENDENT ON 40% OF
THEIR NATURAL GAS FROM RUSSIA.
I BELIEVE THIS NEW AGREEMENT
MOVING FORWARD IS GOING TO
REDUCE THAT DEPENDENCY, NOT JUST
IN THE SHORT TERM, BUT
PERMANENTLY, AND AGAIN, THAT WAS
A HUGE MISCALCULATION BY PUTIN
IN THIS WAR.
>> CAN THESE SANCTIONS BE
ESCALATED EVEN MORE?
>> YEAH, THEY'RE TAKING A TOLL
ALREADY, FRED.
THE RUBLE IS IN A FREE FALL,
THEY'RE QUADRUPLING INTEREST
RATES RIGHT NOW, THE STOCK
MARKET HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR
WEEKS, INFLATION IS EXPLODING
OUT OF CONTROL.
THEYTHEY HAVE TURNED THEM -- THE
REAL QUESTION IS WHAT'S CHINA'S
RESPONSE?
THEY'VE BEEN AMBIGUOUS ABOUT
WHICH WAY THEY'RE LEANING.
GIVEN THEIR CLOSE ECONOMIC TIES
TO THE U.S. AND EUROPEAN UNION,
I DON'T THINK CHINA WANTS TO
SIDE WITH AN INTERNATIONAL WAR
CRIMINAL, PUTIN AND RUSSIA, AT
THIS TIME.
>> NOT TO MENTION A COLLAPSED
ECONOMY.
>> YEAH, THAT'S VERY REAL AND
UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS
HAPPENING.
AND PUTIN IS DOING EVERYTHING HE
CAN TO TURN THE RUSSIAN ECONOMY
INTO NORTH KOREA.
THAT'S NOT A GOOD PLACE TO BE.
>> MEANWHILE, THE MORE THAN
3 1/2 MILLION UKRAINIANS HAVE
FLED THEIR COUNTRY AND THE U.S.
HAS NOW PLEDGED TO ALLOW ABOUT
100,000 OF THEM TO COME HERE.
IN YOUR MIND, IS THAT ENOUGH?
IS THAT WELCOMING ENOUGH ON THE
PART OF THE U.S.?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY GOOD
START AS FAR AS 100,000 REFUGEES
COMING TO THE UNITED STATE,
THOSE WOULD BE PAIRED UP WITH
EXISTING FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE
ALREADY HERE, SO IT SHOULD BE A
QUICK VETTING PROCESS.
BUT WE'RE HEARING THAT MOST OF
THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE WANT TO
STAY CLOSE TO UKRAINE.
THEY WANT TO RETURN TO THEIR
HOMES AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.
AS YOU KNOW, IT WAS THE WOMEN
AND CHILDREN THAT LEFT, AND THE
MEN ARE LEFT BEHIND TO FIGHT.
I DON'T THINK THEY WANT TO BE
SEPARATED THAT FAR RIGHT NOW, SO
TRYING TO KEEP THEM AS CLOSE
WITH THE HUMANITARIAN AID THAT
WE'RE PROVIDING THE NEIGHBORING
NATIONS, I THINK THAT'S THE
RIGHT APPROACH RIGHT NOW.
>> WHILE WE HAVE YOU HERE,
BEFORE YOU STEP DOWN FROM YOUR
SEAT, HOW DIFFICULT DO YOU THINK
IT WILL BE FOR DEMOCRATS TO HOLD
THE THIRD?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK OVERALL,
THE DEMOCRATIC MESSAGE IS GOING
TO BE VERY STRONG, VERY
POWERFUL.
WE'VE DONE OUR BEST TO HELP GET
OUT OF THIS COVID CRISIS THE
LAST TWO YEARS.
I CAN'T IMAGINE WHERE WE WOULD
BE IF THE REPUBLICANS WERE IN
CHARGE AND DENYING VACCINATION
AND FACE MASKS AND PROTECTING
PEOPLE.
WE HAVE A BUILD AMERICA BACK
BETTER PLAN WITH INFRASTRUCTURE,
BROADBAND, HEALTHCARE AND
EDUCATION.
REPUBLICANS ARE OFFERING
NOTHING, OTHER THAN BIG LIE
ELECTION CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND
FRAUDULENT ACCOUNTS THAT DON'T
EXIST.
I JUST CAUTION PEOPLE TO BE
CAREFUL HOW THEY EXERCISE THIS
VOTE THIS YEAR.
THERE'S ONE MAJOR PARTY, THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHO BELIEVES
THAT ONLY -- THE ONLY LEGITIMATE
ELECTION OUTCOME IS THE ONE THAT
THEY WIN, AND THAT'S A VERY
DANGEROUS PLACE FOR OUR
DEMOCRACY TO BE RIGHT NOW.
>> CONGRESSMAN RON KIND, THANKS
VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
THE
>> MY PLEASURE.
>> ALSO IN WASHINGTON, KU
SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON SAT
DOWN BEFORE THE SENATE JEW DISH
RATHER COMMITTEE AND FIELDED
HEATED QUESTIONS.
THE COMMITTEE'S CHAIRMAN HAS
CALLED FOR AN EXECUTIVE SESSION
AS EARLY AS APRIL 4, WHEN THE
COMMITTEE'S VOTE ON HER
NOMINATION IS EXPECTED TO TAKE
PLACE.
JUDGE JACKSON IS THOUGHT TO HAVE
MAINTAINED HER COMPOSURE IN THE
MIDST OF INTENSE GRILLING.
>> I WAS ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE,
CLEARLY, I THINK, THAT THE
PARTICULAR PARTIES IN THE CASE,
THE ISSUES IN THE CASE, WHAT
IT'S ABOUT, FROM A STANDPOINT OF
PERSONAL PREFERENCE IS NOT AN
ISSUE.
I'M SETTING THOSE THINGS ASIDE.
I AM RULING FROM A POSITION OF
NEUTRALITY AND TRYING TO
DETERMINE IN EVERY CASE WHAT THE
LAW REQUIRES.
I AM COMMITTED, I THINK MY
RECORD SHOWS, TO THE
UNDERSTANDING THAT THAT IS THE
ROLE AND THE ONLY APPROPRIATE
ROLE FOR A JUDGE.
>> WISCONSIN'S SENATORS HAD THIS
TO SAY ABOUT JUDGE JACKSON.
DEMOCRAT TAMMY BALDWIN SAID,
QUOTE, JUDGE JACKSON IS
EXTREMELY WELL QUALIFIED AND HAS
STRONG EXPERIENCE WORKING AS A
FEDERAL JUDGE.
SHE HAS A PROVEN RECORD OF BEING
AN IMPARTIAL, FAIR AND
INDEPENDENT JUDGE WHO IS GUIDED
BY THE RULE OF LAW, AND THE
SENATE HEARINGS MADE THAT CLEAR
THIS WEEK.
JUDGE JACKSON HAS SHOWN SHE HAS
THE CHARACTER, TEMPERAMENT AND
EXPERIENCE WE WOULD WANT IN A
JUSTICE ON THE UNITED STATES
SUPREME COURT.
A SPOKESPERSON FOR REPUBLICAN
SENATOR RON JOHNSON SAID, HE
WANTS TO CONFIRM JUDGES THAT
APPLY THE LAW AND WILL NOT BE
JUDICIAL ACTIVISTS.
FROM TESTIMONY THIS WEEK, IT
SEEMS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS
NOMINATED A SUPREME COURT
JUSTICE WHO WILL TEND TO IMPOSE
HER POLICY PREFERENCES FROM THE
BENCH.
HOWEVER, HE LOOKS FORWARD TO
MEETING WITH JUDGE JACKSON IN
PERSON TO HAVE A THOROUGH
DISCUSSION REGARDING HER RECORD,
JUDICIAL PHILOSOPHY, AND
ADHERENCE TO THE CONSTITUTION.
BOTH SENATORS HAVE PLANS TO MEET
WITH JUDGE JACKSON IN PERSON
AHEAD OF THE FULL SENATE VOTE ON
HER CONFIRMATION.
AT THIS MOMENT, WISCONSIN HAS NO
MAPS SHOWING LEGISLATIVE VOTING
BOUNDARIES.
BECAUSE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT
THIS WEEK REJECTED WISCONSIN'S
NEW ELECTION MAPS PUT FORTH BY
DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TONY EVERS.
REPUBLICANS ARGUED EVERS' MAPS
VIOLATE THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT BY
IMPROPERLY USING RACE IN SETTING
SEVEN MAJORITY BLACK DISTRICTS
IN THE MILWAUKEE AREA, COMPARED
TO THE FORMER FIVE DISTRICTS.
THE NATION'S HIGHEST COURT SAID
WISCONSIN'S SUPREME COURT SHOULD
HAVE LOOKED AT WHETHER A
RACE-NEUTRAL ALTERNATIVE THAT
DID NOT ADD A SEVENTH
MAJORITY-BLACK DISTRICT WOULD
DENY BLACK VOTERS EQUAL
POLITICAL OPPORTUNITY.
SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER ZAC
SCHULTZ JOINS US TO EXPLAIN THE
RULING.
HI, ZAC.
>> HELLO, FREDERICA.
>> SO BY YOUR READ, DID THE
RULING FROM THE U.S. SUPREME
COURT COME AS A SURPRISE HERE?
>> I THINK IT DID DO A LOT OF
OBSERVERS, SIMPLY BECAUSE THE
COURT HAS BEEN CONSISTENT IN
THESE REDISTRICTING DECISIONS
OVER THE PAST COUPLE YEARS THAT
WENT THIS CLOSE TO AN ELECTION,
THEY PREFER TO DEFER TO THE
STATE COURTS IN THESE CASES.
THEY'VE DONE THAT IN NORTH
CAROLINA, IN PENNSYLVANIA, AND
IN ALABAMA ON ANOTHER VOTING
RIGHTS ACT-TYPE DECISION.
SO IN THIS CASE, A LOT OF PEOPLE
WERE THINKING IT'S TOO CLOSE,
ESPECIALLY WITH THE CANDIDATES
ABOUT TO START CIRCULATING
NOMINATION PAPERS IN THE NEXT
MONTH, SO THAT WAS THE SURPRISE.
>> SO THE HIGH COURT SENDS IT
BACK TO WISCONSIN JUSTICES,
TELLING BASICALLY THEM BASICALLY TO FIGURE
IT OUT.
HOW INCLINED ARE WISCONSIN'S
JUSTICES TO GET INTO THE
BUSINESS OF DRAWING THESE MAPS?
>> WELL, I THINK THEY WANTED TO
AVOID DRAWING THE MAPS FROM THE
BEGINNING.
THAT'S WHY THEY WENT THE ROUTE
THEY WENT, WHICH IS CHOOSING
FROM A REPUBLICAN MAP OR
GOVERNOR EVERS' MAPS.
IN THIS CASE, REMEDYING THE
SITUATION THAT THE U.S. SUPREME
COURT SAYS NEEDS TO BE FIXED
INCLUDING ADJUSTING THESE
BOUNDARIES GIVES THEM A COUPLE
OF CASES.
GOVERNOR EVERS WOULD SAY LET'S
FIGHT JUSTIFY THE MAPS YOU
ALREADY EXIST OR YOU CHOSE OR
THEY COULD SLIGHTLY ADJUST HIS
MAPS.
REPUBLICANS, OF COURSE, ARE
SAYING, HEY, USE OUR MAP, IT
DOESN'T VIOLATE THE VOTING
RIGHTS ACT AND IT'S CLOSE ENOUGH
TO WHAT SOME OF THE OTHER
MEASURES THE WISCONSIN SUPREME
COURT WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
SO THEY MAY ADJUST BOUNDARIES OR
THEY MAY PICK BETWEEN ONE OR
TWO.
>> SO JUSTICE HAGEDORN WAS THE
SWING VOTE IN WISCONSIN THAT
APPROVED THE EVERS MAPS.
WILL ALL EYES BE ON HIM THIS
ROUND?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
HE'S BEEN THE SWING VOTE ON ALL
OF THESE REALLY IMPORTANT
DECISIONS ALL ALONG.
THERE'S THREE LIBERALS, THERE'S
THREE CONSERVATIVES, AND JUSTICE
HAGEDORN IS CLEARLY A
CONSERVATIVE IN MINDSET BUT HE
HAS APPROACHED THINGS
DIFFERENTLY AND INDEPENDENTLY IN
A LOT OF THESE CASES, AND HE WAS
THE ONE THAT SET THE STANDARD
FOR THE LEAST CHANGE MODEL THAT
THE COURT DECIDED TO ADAPT IN
PICKING THE MAPS AND HE'S THE
ONE WHO SIDED WITH LIBERALS WHEN
THEY DECIDED TO PICK THE EVERS
MAPS SAYING DID THAT FIT IN THE
FIRST PLACE.
SO HE IS WHO EVERYONE IS GOING
TO BE APPEALING TO.
>> SO TONY EVERS IS ALREADY
WANTING TO SUBMIT TO THE STATE
SUPREME COURT NEW EVIDENCE IN
SUPPORT OF HIS MAPS AND EVEN
CHANGES TO HIS MAPS.
WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE?
>> WELL, HE'S LOOKING AT TWO
DIFFERENT OPTIONS FOR HOW TO
KEEP HIS WHOLE MAP IN PLACE.
EITHER BY MAKING MINOR
ADJUSTMENTS IN THE MILWAUKEE
AREA AND HOPING THAT SATISFIES
THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT AND
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT, OR HE'D
LIKE TO KEEP HIS ORIGINAL MAP
AND MAKE A FURTHER JUSTIFICATION
TO THE U.S. SUPREME COURT OF WHY
HIS DISTRICTS ACTUALLY ARE LEGAL
UNDER THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT.
THE CRUX OF THAT ARGUMENT THERE
IS THAT HE SAYS HE DIDN'T GET TO
MAKE THE FULL CASE IN THE FIRST
PLACE, AND THE U.S. SUPREME
COURT WANTED EVIDENCE THAT IT
NEVER RECEIVED IN MAKING THE
DECISION TO SAY THAT THERE WAS
NO JUSTIFICATION FOR CREATING
THAT SEVENTH BLACK-MAJORITY
DISTRICT IN MILWAUKEE.
>> SO HOW MUCH IS TIME OF THE
ESSENCE HERE?
IS IT CRITICAL?
>> ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE WE'RE
ONLY A FEW WEEKS AWAY FROM
CANDIDATES BEING ABLE TO TAKE
OUT NOMINATION PAPERS IN THESE
ASSEMBLY AND STATE SENATE
DISTRICTS AROUND THE STATE, AND
THEY NEED TO KNOW THE
BOUNDARIES, BECAUSE THEY CAN
ONLY COLLECT SIGNATURES FROM
ELIGIBLE VOTERS WITHIN THEIR
DISTRICT.
AND THIS GETS BACK TO THE
QUESTION OF WHICH MAPS MIGHT BE
CHOSEN.
BECAUSE IF THEY END UP JUST
MODIFYING THE EVERS MAP OR
JUSTIFYING IT, THEN THE VAST
MAJORITY OF THE STATE'S DRIJT
DRICT LINES HAVESTATE'S DISTRICTLINES HAVE BEEN SET, CLERKS HAVE
BEEN WORKING ON BOUNDARIES OF
WHICH WARD IS IN WHICH DISTRICT
SO PEOPLE KNOW WHERE TO GO.
BUT IF THE WISCONSIN SUPREME
COURT CHANGES COURSE DIRECTLY
AND SAYS WE'RE GOING TO USE THE
REPUBLICAN MAP, WELL, THAT MEANS
EVERY DISTRICT IN THE STATE
CHANGES, EVERY CLERK IN THE
STATE HAS TO START REDRAWING
THOSE BOUNDARIES, AND ALL THOSE
CANDIDATES MAY BE CIRCULATING
PAPERS WITHOUT KNOWING WHERE
THEY ACTUALLY WILL BE RUNNING.
>> SO WHAT DO YOU THINK CLERKS
ARE THINKING RIGHT ABOUT NOW?
>> WELL, CLERKS HAVE BEEN
DEALING WITH A LOT THE LAST TWO
YEARS.
THEY'VE DEALT WITH ELECTIONS
DURING A PANDEMIC, THEY'VE HAD
THE COURTS AND LEGISLATURE
CHANGE THINGS AT THE LAST MINUTE
IN ALL THESE ELECTIONS AND NOW
THEY'VE BEEN DEALING WITH ALL
THESE CONSPIRACY THEORISTS
ACCUSING THEM OF FRAUD.
SO THEY'RE USED TO BEING IN THE
HOT SEAT IN WISCONSIN ELECTIONS
BUT THIS IS JUST ONE MORE THING
THEY HAVE TO DEAL WITH.
ULTIMATELY IT'S UP TO EACH
CANDIDATE TO CIRCULATE
NOMINATION PAPERS IN THE CORRECT
DISTRICTS BUT THEY'RE RELYING ON
CLERKS TO HAVE THOSE DISTRICTS
SETS.
THEY'VE BEEN WORKING OVERTIME
SINCE THE ORIGINAL EVERS MAPS
HAVE BEEN CHOSEN A FEW WEEKS AGO
AND THEY HAVE AN EVEN SHORTER
DEADLINE TO FINALIZE THESE.
>> MEANWHILE SCOTUS LEFT IN
PLACE THE EVERS CONGRESSIONAL
MAPS MAKING THE FIRST DISTRICT
MORE COMPETITIVE.
REPUBLICANS WANT TO CHALLENGE
THAT.
DOES THAT CHALLENGE HAVE LEGS?
>> WELL, WHO KNOWS?
IT'S THE WISCONSIN SUPREME
COURT.
THEY ORIGINALLY SAID THOSE MAPS
WERE FINE AND THE APPEAL WAS
DENIED BY THE U.S. SUPREME
COURT, SO YOU WOULDN'T THINK THE
WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT WOULD
REVISIT THAT DECISION, BUT ONCE
IT'S BACK IN THEIR COURT, THEY
CAN MAKE ANY DECISION THEY WANT
AND JUSTIFY IT REALLY ANY WHICH
WAY THEY WANT.
>> ZAC SCHULTZ, THANKS VERY
MUCH.
THANKS FOR UNTANGLING THIS FOR
US.
>> MY PLEASURE.
>> IN OTHER NEWS, THE SCOURGE,
TRAUMA AND COST OF DRUG OVERDOSE
DEATHS IN WISCONSIN PROMPTED THE
PASS ANG OFPASSAGE OF A NEW STATE LAW THIS
MONTH THAT LEGALIZES A SCREENING
TEST FORMERLY CONSIDERED ILLEGAL
DRUG PARAPHERNALIA.
THE TESTS ARE DESIGNED TO DETECT
THE DEADLY ADDITIVE FENTANYL,
AND IN MILWAUKEE, FOR THOSE IN
PUBLIC HEALTH, THEIR NEW LEGAL
USE IS HEAVEN-SENT.
>> IT'S A BLESSING.
IT IS A BLESSING THAT THESE ARE
NOW LEGAL.
>> RAFAEL MERCADO IS A COMMUNITY
OUTREACH WORKER.
>> WHAT I DO IS WE COME OUT AND
I HAVE PACKAGES SIMILAR TO THIS,
AND WE HAND THEM OUT.
>> WHO DISTRIBUTES FENTANYL TEST
STRIPS IN MILWAUKEE, INCLUDING
TO PEOPLE IN HIS OWN
NEIGHBORHOOD ON THE SOUTH SIDE
OF THE CITY.
>> TAKE IT OUT, IF YOU USE THE
DRUG, TEST IT, DROP IT IN THE
URINE, AND JUST LIKE A PREGNANCY
TEST.
IT WILL GIVE YOU ONE LINE, TWO
LINES, AND THEN ONE THAT WILL BE
HIGHER.
>> MERCADO LIVES IN THE HOT SPOT
FOR OVERDOSE DEATHS IN MILWAUKEE
COUNTY.
A COUNTY THAT SAW MORE THAN
7,000 O.D.s IN 2021, MORE THAN
600 OF THEM FATAL.
80% OF OVERDOSE DEATHS ARE
CAUSED BY FENTANYL, A POWERFUL
OPIOID MIXED INTO OTHER DRUGS BY
DEALERS TO INCREASE POTENCY, AND
THAT EVEN IN TRACE AMOUNTS CAN
BE DEADLY.
>> THEY'RE NOT TRYING TO KILL
THEIR SELVES.
THEY'RE TRYING TO MASK A PAIN.
>> THE PROBLEM IS SO COMMONPLACE
THAT EVEN AS WE TALKED TO
MERCADO OUTSIDE THE 16TH STREET
CLINIC IN MILWAUKEE, A PERSON
OVERDOSED DOWN THE BLOCK.
PARAMEDICS REVIVED HIM.
>> THE OVERDOSE DEATHS HAVE
INCREASED FOR SEVERAL YEARS IN A
ROW WHERE WE'VE HAD A NEW
RECORD.
SO WE ARE JUST AT UNPRECEDENTED
NUMBERS.
>> MICHAEL LAPPEN IS
ADMINISTRATOR FOR THE MILWAUKEE
COUNTY BEHAVIORAL HEALTH
DIVISION.
>> I SAID YOU'RE GOOD TO WALK.
>> PARTNERS WITH MERCADO WHO
HITS THE STREETS.
>> YOU DIP IT IN, WAIT ABOUT
FIVE MINUTES.
SO IF YOU GET TWO LINES, IT'S A
NEGATIVE.
ONE, THE HIGH IS POSITIVE.
>> THEY JUST GOT ME HANDING OUT
MORE FENTANYL STRIPS.
I'M HANDING OUT MORE OF THEM
FENTANYL TESTING STRIPS.
>> MERCADO SAYS THE IDEA FOR
PEOPLE TO USE VERY SMALL AMOUNTS
OF THEIR HEROIN, TEST, AND HAVE
THE EMERGENCY O.D. REVIVING
SPRAY NARCAN AT THE READY.
AND SO HOW IMPORTANT IS THE
LEGALIZATION OF THESE FENTANYL
TEST STRIPS?
>> WELL, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT
BECAUSE IT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO MAKE
INFORMED DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT
THEY'RE INGESTING.
SO IF SOMEONE TESTS THEIR DRUGS
AND THEY IDENTIFY FENTANYL, THEY
KNOW PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE
NALOXONE OR NARCAN AVAILABLE.
MAYBE THEY USE WITH A PARTNER SO
THEY CAN KEEP EACH OTHER SAFE.
MAYBE THEY REDUCE THEIR DOSAGE,
AND MAYBE THEY DON'T USE IT AT
ALL.
>> AS AN AMBULANCE TEARS AWAY,
CARRYING AN O.D. VICTIM, WHAT
ABOUT THE QUESTION OF WHETHER
HANDING OUT PACKAGES OF TEST
STRIPS AND NARCAN ENCOURAGES
DRUG USE?
>> WELL, PEOPLE SAY THAT.
YOU KNOW, FOLKS HAVE SAID THAT
ALL THESE HARM REDUCTION
INITIATIVES JUST ENABLE DRUG
USE.
I COMPLETELY DISAGREE.
I BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE'RE DOING
IS WE'RE MAINTAINING SAFETY,
KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE LONG ENOUGH
FOR THEM TO GET INTO RECOVERY.
>> WISCONSIN LEGALIZED FENTANYL
TEST STRIPS IN MID MARCH, BEFORE
THE LAW CHANGED, THEY WERE
ILLEGAL.
CONSIDERED DRUG PARAPHERNALIA.
MILWAUKEE COUNTY STARTED
DISTRIBUTING 1600 OF THEM, WITH
MORE TO COME.
>> THE THEME IS, WHATEVER WE CAN
DO TO KEEP PEOPLE ALIVE, WE WANT
TO DO THAT IN OUR COMMUNITY.
>> YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE FOR A
MOM TO HAVE TO BURY THEIR SON OR
DAUGHTER OR LOVED ONE, THEIR
HUSBAND?
I'M NOT ENABLING NOBODY.
I'M SAVING THEIR LIFE.
>> MILWAUKEE COUNTY EXPECTS TO
RECEIVE A LARGER STOCK OF THE
TEST STRIPS FROM STATE FUNDS
COMING FROM A SETTLEMENT IN A
LAWSUIT AGAINST OPIOID
MANUFACTURERS. FOR MORE ON THIS
AND OTHER ISSUES FACING
WISCONSIN, VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG AND THEN CLICK
ON THE NEWS TAB.
THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.