>> WE CAME HERE TO TALK ABOUT
OIL AND GAS PRICES, BUT IN THIS
MOMENT, WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
UKRAINE, THAT JUST SEEMS LIKE
SUCH A MERCENARY DISCUSSION.
WHAT ABOUT THAT?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S THE MOST
IMPORTANT THING IS, THIS IS A
TRAGEDY FOR UKRAINE.
IT'S A WAR, YOU'RE SEEING
PICTURES OF MASSACRING OF
CIVILIANS, SO THERE'S TERRIBLE
HUMAN SUFFERING.
AND THE MILITARY ASPECT, AND
THERE'S HUGE IMPLICATIONS FOR
DEMOCRACY IN EUROPE.
SO THIS IS A SOVEREIGN
DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN
ATTACKED FOR ESSENTIALLY, YOU
KNOW, NO REASON OF ITS OWN, AND
SO THOSE ARE PARAMOUNT ISSUES,
BUT ALSO I TEACH INTERNATIONAL
RELATIONS AND THE SECURITY
ISSUES AND THE ECONOMIC ISSUES
AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
INTERTWINE.
>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A
PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> THE ONGOING VIOLENCE OF WAR
IN UKRAINE IS HEARTBREAKING FOR
UKRAINIANS IN WISCONSIN.
IN THE MIDST OF THE ATROCITIES
ABROAD, THE PRICE AT THE PUMP IS
GOING UP.
THE STATE SENATE WRAPPED UP ITS
LAST SESSION FOR THE SEASON,
PASSING A PROPOSAL THAT WOULD
PROHIBIT A CITY FROM BANNING
NO-KNOCK POLICE WARRANTS.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," A
UKRAINE NATIVE DESCRIBES ANGUISH
AND WANTS TO SEE ACTION.
ARE RESULTING GAS HIKES A SMALL
PRICE TO PAY?
REDISTRICTING AND AN ELECTION
INVESTIGATION TAKE MORE TWISTS
AND TURNS.
AND THE IMPACT OF BANNING
NO-KNOCK SEARCH WARRANTS.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR
MARCH 11.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.
>> AS HORRIFYING AS IT IS TO
WATCH THE HUMAN CARNAGE OF WAR
IN UKRAINE FROM AFAR, FOR PEOPLE
WHO CALL UKRAINE HOME, IT'S
UNSPEAKABLE.
OUR NEXT GUEST, A UKRAINE NATIVE
AND WISCONSIN TRANSPLANT,
WORRIES FOR HER FAMILY THERE.
BUT SHE CONSIDERS ALL UKRAINIANS
HER FAMILY, AND THE ATROCITIES
ARE TAKING THEIR TOLL.
RUSLANA WESTERLUND JOINS US FROM
HER HOME IN CROSS PLAINS,
WISCONSIN.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> YOU'RE WELCOME.
I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> SO WHAT IS YOUR REACTION WHEN
YOU SEE THE CONTINUED BRUTALITY
AGAINST UKRAINE AND ITS PEOPLE?
>> YOU KNOW, I THOUGHT I
WOULD -- IT WOULD GET EASIER,
BUT IT'S ABSOLUTELY
HEART-WRENCHING BECAUSE THE
ATROCITY CONTINUES AND THE
CIVILIANS ARE ATTACKED AND
BOMBED AND MATERNITY WARDS ARE
ATTACKED AND CHILDREN'S
HOSPITALS ARE TARGETED AND
BOMBED, AND NOW THE WAR JUST
BECOMES JUST PAINFUL AND
IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE SENSE OF OR
WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND.
>> HOW DO YOU EVEN DEAL WITH IT,
SEEING THAT, AND KNOWING THAT
YOUR FAMILY REMAINS IN UKRAINE?
>> I TRY TO SEEK SUPPORT, AND I
HAVE RECEIVED A LOT OF SUPPORT.
AND I TRY TO STAY IN TOUCH WITH
MY FAMILY IN UKRAINE, AND TO
EITHER ENCOURAGE THEM OR TO JUST
CHECK IN ON HOW THEY'RE DOING,
AND CONSTANT COMMUNICATION, JUST
ORGANIZING RALLIES IN MADISON
AND FEELING THE SOLIDARITY AND
FEELING THE SUPPORT OF PEOPLE
HELPS TO GET THROUGH DAY TO DAY
OR SOMETIMES HOUR BY HOUR.
>> WHERE ARE MEMBERS OF YOUR
FAMILY NOW, AND WHAT IS
HAPPENING TO THEM?
>> SO MY DAD AND MY STEPMOM, MY
UNCLES AND AUNTS, THE MAJORITY
OF THEM LIVE IN CENTRAL UKRAINE,
AND THEY DO LIVE IN FEAR, EVEN
THOUGH THEY DON'T HAVE TO GO IN
THE BOMB SHELTERS YET, BECAUSE
RELATIVELY THAT AREA HAS BEEN
LEFT UNTOUCHED, BUT IT'S
STILL -- THERE IS STILL A LOT OF
FEAR.
SO THEY'RE IN CENTRAL UKRAINE,
AND SOME OF MY NEPHEWS ARE IN --
SOME OF MY RELATIVES ARE IN
WESTERN UKRAINE.
>> SO I HAVE READ THAT YOU
DIDN'T EXPECT PUTIN TO ACTUALLY
INVADE UKRAINE.
WHY NOT?
>> I THINK IT WAS JUST HARD TO
BELIEVE THAT HE WOULD ACTUALLY
DO IT.
I MEAN, WE KNEW THE WAR IN THE
EAST HAS BEEN GOING ON SINCE
2014 AND THE ANNEXATION, SO WE
THOUGHT MAYBE HE'LL BE
CONTINUING THOSE EFFORTS BECAUSE
HE'S GOT AN AGENDA THERE.
SO IT WAS JUST -- THE INNOVATION
OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY WAS A
SHOCK TO ALL OF US.
>> AND THE CONTINUED BRUTALITY
OF IT, WHAT ABOUT THAT?
STILL SHOCKING, I IMAGINE.
>> IT'S -- IT'S -- SOMETIMES I
HAVE NO WORDS.
AND I WRITE POETRY TO PROCESS
AND I WROTE A POEM BUT THERE ARE
NO WORDS ESPECIALLY WHEN THE
HUMANITARIAN CORRIDORS ARE BEING
MINED, SO EVACUEES CANNOT
ESCAPE.
AND THAT'S ACTUALLY A WAR CRIME,
BECAUSE CIVILIANS ARE SUPPOSED
TO BE ALLOWED TO ESCAPE AND
EVACUATE.
SO WHEN THE HUMANITARIAN
CORRIDORS ARE MINED AND BLOWN
UP, THEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT JUST
ATROCITY AND BRUTALITY AND
EXTERMINATION OF PEOPLE.
>> WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE
THE U.S. DO TO HELP UKRAINE FEND
OFF THE RUSSIANS?
>> I WOULD LIKE THE U.S. TO COME
UP WITH CREATIVE SOLUTIONS
THAT -- BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND
INVOLVING NATO DIRECTLY IS NOT
SAFE OR MAYBE IT S I REALLY
DON'T KNOW, BUT IF THAT'S AN
OPTION, THINK OF CREATIVE WAYS
OF HOW TO SUPPLY THE MIGS, THE
FIGHTER JETS BY ALLOWING AND
EQUIPPING THE UKRAINIAN ARMY TO
FIGHT OFF THE WAR WITH MORE
EQUIPMENT.
THE WORLD HAS TO STEP UP AND DO
SOMETHING MORE.
>> DOES IT SURPRISE YOU THAT
UKRAINE HAS PUT UP SUCH A GOOD
FIGHT?
>> NO, BECAUSE WE ARE RESILIENT
PEOPLE, WE'RE STRONG PEOPLE,
WE'RE INDEPENDENCE-LOVING
PEOPLE.
WE HAVE NEVER BEEN PART OF
RUSSIA, SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING.
WE HAVE BEEN DRAGGED INTO THE
SOVIET UNION, BUT WE HAVE ALWAYS
BEEN INDEPENDENT PEOPLE IN OUR
SPIRIT.
SINCE OUR HISTORY CENTURIES AGO.
SO WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN -- WE ARE
KIND OF USED TO OPPRESSORS NOW.
IT'S SAD, BUT BECAUSE WE HAVE
ENDURED SUCH BRUTALITY AND
OPPRESSION IN '33, WE HAVE
DEVELOPED RESILIENCE AND
STRENGTH TO FIGHT OFF BECAUSE
INDEPENDENCE AND OUR SOIL ARE
THE MOST IMPORTANT VALUES TO US.
>> WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN
IN THE END?
>> WE WILL WIN.
WE WILL WIN.
AND I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO
RUSSIA.
BUT UKRAINE WILL WIN.
IT WILL COST US MORE LIVES AND
IT'S -- THE UNSPEAKABLE
ATROCITIES WILL CONTINUE BECAUSE
PUTIN WON'T GIVE UP EASILY BUT
WE WILL WIN.
WE JUST NEED SUPPORT, CONTINUED,
CONTINUED GLOBAL SUPPORT TO HELP
US WIN.
>> RUSLANA WESTERLUND, THANK YOU
FOR JOINING US, AND GOOD LUCK TO
YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
FOR HAVING ME.
>> AMID THE HORROR OF WHAT'S
HAPPENING IN UKRAINE, CONSUMERS
HERE AT HOME ARE RAILING AGAINST
HIGH GAS PRICES.
AND LIKE ALL THINGS, THE COST OF
A GALLON OF GAS HAS TURNED UP
THE POLITICAL BLAME GAME.
WE WANTED TO PUT SOME CONTEXT TO
THE PRICE OF OIL, ITS
GEOPOLITICAL IMPLICATIONS, AND
WHAT THE WAR MEANS ECONOMICALLY
GOING FORWARD.
WE SAT DOWN WITH MARK
COPELOVITCH, PROFESSOR OF
POLITICAL SCIENCE AND PUBLIC
AFFAIRS AND INTERNATIONAL
RELATIONS AT UW-MADISON.
>> WE CAME HERE TO TALK ABOUT
OIL AND GAS PRICES BUT IN THIS
MOMENT WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
UKRAINE, THAT JUST SEEMS LIKE
SUCH A MERCENARY DISCUSSION.
WHAT ABOUT THAT?
>> YEAH.
I MEAN, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
IS, THIS IS A TRAGEDY FOR
UKRAINE, IT'S A WAR, WE'RE
SEEING THE PICTURES OF
MASSACRING OF CIVILIANS, AND SO
THERE'S TERRIBLE HUMAN
SUFFERING.
AND THE MILITARY ASPECT, AND
THERE'S HUGE IMPLICATIONS FOR
DEMOCRACY IN EUROPE.
SO THIS IS A SOVEREIGN
DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN
ATTACKED FOR ESSENTIALLY, YOU
KNOW, NO REASON OF ITS OWN, AND
SO THOSE ARE PARAMOUNT ISSUES,
BUT ALSO, YOU KNOW, I TEACH
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, AND THE
SECURITY ISSUES AND THE ECONOMIC
ISSUES IN INTERNATIONAL
RELATIONS INTERTWINE, SO ONE OF
THE MAJOR THINGS IN THE LAST
WEEK HAS BEEN THE COORDINATED
ECONOMIC SANCTIONS FROM THE U.S.
AND THE EUROPEAN UNION, THE
JAPANESE, KIND OF THE WORLD'S
MAJOR DEMOCRATIC ECONOMIES, AND
THEY'RE TARGETED AT RUSSIA'S
ABILITY TO SUSTAIN ITS ECONOMY
WHICH ULTIMATELY IS RELATED TO
RUSSIA'S ABILITY TO SUSTAIN THE
CONFLICT.
SO I THINK THE ECONOMIC ISSUES
ARE ACTUALLY VERY IMPORTANT TO
TALK ABOUT.
>> HOW MEANINGFUL IS THE U.S.
SANCTION OF ENDING RUSSIAN OIL
IMPORT, BOTH FOR THAT COUNTRY,
BUT FOR OURS?
>> I MEAN, IT'S IMPORTANT, I
ACTUALLY DON'T THINK THAT'S THE
MOST IMPORTANT OF THE SANCTIONS.
SO RUSSIA IS ONE OF THE WORLD'S
LARGEST OIL EXPORTERS.
WE ARE RELATIVELY NOT DEPENDENT
ON RUSSIA.
EUROPEANS ARE INCREDIBLY
DEPENDENT ON RUSSIA FOR NATURAL
GAS EXPORTS.
THE MOST IMPORTANT ONES HAVE
BEEN THESE FINANCIAL SANCTIONS
TO BLOCK THE RUSSIAN CENTRAL
BANK AND GOVERNMENT AND RUSSIAN
BANKS FROM PARTICIPATING IN THE
GLOBAL ECONOMY.
BASICALLY THE FINANCIAL FLOWS IN
THE WORLD ECONOMY ARE THE OIL
THAT KEEPS THE ENGINE RUNNING,
AND IF YOU CUT OFF THE OIL, THE
RUSSIAN ECONOMY BASICALLY CAN'T
FUNCTION.
SO THAT'S MUCH MORE IMPORTANT.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THE HIT TO THE
RUSSIAN ECONOMY OF CUTTING OFF
OIL EXPORTS IS SOMETHING THAT
HAPPENS OVER THE NEXT MONTH TO A
YEAR OR TWO.
THE FINANCIAL SANCTIONS ARE
ALREADY HITTING THEM VERY, VERY
HARD.
>> IN TERMS OF THE HIT TO THEIR
OIL ECONOMY, WHAT WILL THAT DO
IN THE U.S.?
I MEAN, WILL THIS RESULT IN
HIGHER PRICES HERE?
>> IT WILL RESULT IN HIGHER
PRICES AT LEAST TEMPORARILY
BECAUSE GLOBAL PRICES WILL JUMP.
SO WHEN YOU HAVE ONE OF THE
WORLD'S LARGEST OIL PRODUCERS,
NOT EXPORTING AS MUCH, YOU'RE
GOING TO HAVE THESE SHORT-TERM
SPIKES.
BUT WE ARE NOT VERY DEPENDENT ON
RUSSIA, RIGHT, AND THERE'S
ALREADY TALK OF HOW YOU'RE GOING
TO REALLOCATE GLOBAL OIL SUPPLY
CHAINS, THE U.S. GOVERNMENT
RELEASING OIL FROM THE STRATEGIC
PETROLEUM RESERVE, MOVING TO
ALTERNATIVE ENERGY.
SO YOU KNOW, YOU SAW THE SHORT
TERM SPIKE.
I THINK OIL WENT UP TO ABOUT 125
OR 130, IT'S ALREADY BACK DOWN
TODAY BELOW 110.
SO OIL PRICES ARE GOING TO BE
HIGHER, GAS PRICES ARE GOING TO
BE HIGHER, BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO
BE A SORT OF THINGS ARE GOING TO
KEEP GOING UP.
FOR THE NEXT SIX MONTHS TO A
YEAR, I THINK.
AND FOR THE U.S. REALLY, AGAIN,
THE ECONOMIC HIT IN TERMS OF
INFLATION IN THE REAL ECONOMY,
LESS THAN 1% OF OUR TRADE IS
WITH RUSSIA.
>> SO IF YOU GO IN AND PUT GAS
IN YOUR CAR, IT'S NOW LIKE ABOVE
$4 A GALLON.
>> RIGHT.
>> IS THAT A MAJOR SHOCK?
>> YOU KNOW, IT'S STICKER SHOCK,
RIGHT?
PEOPLE SEE IT, AND OIL PRICES
WERE VERY LOW AT THE START OF
THE PANDEMIC AND GAS PRICES WERE
DOWN PROBABLY TO 2.20, SOMEWHERE
AROUND THERE.
FROM 2011 TO 14, GAS PRICES WERE
HIGHER THAN EVEN THE HIGH PRICES
NOW, AND IF YOU ADJUST FOR
INFLATION, I THINK THE NUMBER I
SAW YESTERDAY WAS WE'D NEED
ANOTHER 32% RISE IN PRICES TO
GET TO WHERE WE WERE IN REAL
TERMS IN 2011 TO 2014.
SO THEY'RE HIGH, BUT THEY'RE NOT
HISTORICALLY INCREDIBLY HIGH.
AND AGAIN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT
HOW MUCH THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD
SPENDS ON GAS, YOU'RE TALKING
ABOUT PROBABLY ABOUT A THOUSAND
DOLLARS A YEAR, WHICH IS A BIG
HIT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS
THAT HAVE BEEN BIG HITS TOO,
LIKE THE TARIFFS WITH CHINA FROM
THE TRADE WAR ACTUALLY RAISED
HOUSEHOLD SPENDING COSTS EVEN
MORE THAN THAT.
>> WHEN YOU COMBINE THE COST OF
GAS, THOUGH, WITH THE HIGH
INFLATION, AND WE REALLY ARE
TALKING ABOUT A HIT ON
INDIVIDUAL CONSUMERS.
>> YES, ABSOLUTELY.
I MEAN, INFLATION IS NOW -- THE
NUMBERS TODAY WERE 7.9%, AND SO
IT IS A MATERIAL HIT.
I MEAN, I THINK -- I LIKE TO PUT
IT IN PERSPECTIVE BOTH TO
HISTORY AND THE EXPERIENCE OF
THE LAST YEAR, SO HISTORICALLY,
IF YOU LOOK AT THE 1970s, WE
HAD INFLATION UP TO 15%.
AND THAT LASTED FOR SEVERAL
YEARS.
SO THIS IS HIGH RELATIVE TO A
WORLD WHERE WE GOT VERY USED TO
REALLY LOW INFLATION FOR TWO
DECADES.
THE OTHER THING TO THINK ABOUT
IS, YOU KNOW, IT'S A HIT TO REAL
INCOME AND CONSUMPTION, BUT THE
AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD ACTUALLY
RECEIVED ABOUT $3,400 IN FEDERAL
RELIEF OF VARIOUS FORMS IN THE
LAST YEAR.
SO REAL INCOME AND REAL
CONSUMPTION ACTUALLY DIDN'T GO
DOWN, IF YOU LOOK FOR THE
AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD IN THE LAST
YEAR.
SO A LOT OF THE TALK ABOUT
SUFFERING OF INFLATION IS
LOOKING FORWARD NOW, BECAUSE
THERE'S PROBABLY NOT GOING TO BE
ANOTHER BIG STIMULUS PACKAGE TO
OFFSET THE COST OF INFLATION
GOING FORWARD.
>> WHAT'S THE EXPECTATION OF
INFLATION TRENDING DOWN?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE WERE --
BEFORE 14 DAYS AGO, WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT THIS IS PROBABLY
THE PEAK OVER THE NEXT MONTH OR
TWO.
BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE
INFLATION WAS CROSS NATIONAL AND
ABOUT THE PANDEMIC AND SUPPLY
CHAINS.
YOU KNOW, IT'S 5, 6% INFLATION
IN EUROPEAN UNION COUNTRIES,
IT'S 7-SOMETHING HERE.
ON THE MARGIN, IT WAS ABOUT THE
STIMULUS PACKAGE AND THINGS LIKE
THAT IN THE U.S., BUT MOST OF IT
WAS ABOUT THE INFLATION IN THE
PANDEMIC, THE ECONOMY FREEZING
UP, SO AS THINGS WERE
RE-OPENING, WE WERE STARTING TO
THINK ABOUT OVER THE NEXT SIX
MONTHS PROBABLY INFLATION IS
GOING TO COME DOWN.
IT'S A LITTLE LESS CLEAR IF IT'S
GOING TO COME DOWN.
I DON'T THINK IT'S GOING TO KEEP
GOING UP, YOU KNOW, AT FASTER
AND FASTER RATES EVERY MONTH,
BUT I THINK WE'VE EXTENDED THE
TIME HORIZON NOW GOING FORWARD
OF WHEN DOES IT GET BACK TO WHAT
WE THOUGHT WAS NORMAL INFLATION
OF 2% OR 3%.
SO YOU'RE DEFINITELY GOING TO
SEE IT OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL
MONTHS AND WE DON'T KNOW HOW
LONG THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE IS
GOING TO LAST.
WHAT THE BROADER RAMIFICATIONS
OF THAT ARE.
>> OKAY.
MARK COPELOVITCH, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH.
WISCONSIN CONTINUES TO BE AT THE
EPICENTER OF ELECTORAL POLITICS.
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT WEIGHING
IN ON OUR VOTING MAPS, AND
DONALD TRUMP WEIGHING IN ON THE
INTRACTABLE MICHAEL GABLEMAN
INVESTIGATION.
IT'S ANOTHER DAY AT THE CAPITOL.
THAT'S WHERE WISCONSIN PUBLIC
RADIO CAPITOL BUREAU CHIEF,
SHAWN JOHNSON IS.
HE JOINS US NOW.
HI, SHAWN.
>> HI FREDERICA.
>> SO LEGISLATIVE REPUBLICANS
WANT THE U.S. SUPREME COURT TO
TAKE THE CASE WHERE THE STATE
HIGH COURT CHANGED THE EVERS
MAPS.
WHAT'S THE STATUS OF THAT
REQUEST TO THE U.S. SUPREME
COURT AND THE STAY THAT THE
REPUBLICANS ASKED FOR?
>> THE U.S. SUPREME COURT TOLD
EVERYBODY, FILE RESPONSES TO
THIS BY FRIDAY, MARCH 11TH, AND
THAT'S ALL WE KNOW AT THIS
POINT.
THE U.S. SUPREME COURT GAVE A
DEADLINE OF NEXT TUESDAY FOR
ANOTHER CHALLENGE OF THE STATE'S
CONGRESSIONAL MAP THAT WAS
BROUGHT BY REPUBLICANS.
SO WE'RE KIND OF WAITING TO SEE
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT.
IT'S THE U.S. SUPREME COURT,
THEY SET THEIR OWN TIME LINES
ALTHOUGH WE DO HAVE
ELECTION-RELATED TIME LINES
COMING UP IN WISCONSIN, NAMELY
THE APRIL 15TH DATE WHEN
CANDIDATES BEGIN CIRCULATING
NOMINATION PETITIONS.
>> COMING RIGHT UP.
BUT WHAT'S YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF
THE LIKELIHOOD FOR THE U.S.
SUPREME COURT TO TAKE THE CASE
AT ALL?
>> SO THEY COULD, BUT MY
UNDERSTANDING IS IT'S LIKELY
THAT THEY'LL LEAVE THE MAP
ALONE.
IT'S A STATE MAP DECIDED BY THE
STATE'S HIGHEST COURT, AND SO
THAT'S ONE ARGUMENT THAT WOULD
LEAVE THE U.S. SUPREME COURT TO
JUST KIND OF STAY OUT OF THIS.
BUT THEY MIGHT, ON THE GROUNDS
OF THEY WANT TO GET INVOLVED IN
A VOTING RIGHTS ACT CHALLENGE.
IT'S UP TO THE SUPREME COURT TO
DECIDE WHICH CASES IT TAKES.
THEY'RE ALREADY GETTING INVOLVED
IN REDISTRICTING CASE OUT OF
ALABAMA, RELATED TO HOW
REDISTRICTING AND THE VOTING
RIGHTS ACT, YOU KNOW, WORK
TOGETHER, AND SO IT COULD BE
THAT THE COURT WILL HEAR
WISCONSIN'S CASE EVENTUALLY.
I GUESS THE IMMEDIATE QUESTION
IS WHETHER THEY DECIDE TO TAKE
IT RIGHT AWAY AND TOSS OUT
WISCONSIN'S MAP.
>> RIGHT, THAT IS THE QUESTION,
LIKE WHICH MAPS MIGHT BE IN
PLACE FOR THIS YEAR'S ELECTIONS.
>> IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S A
DESEPTEMBER CHANCE THATDECENT CHANCE THAT YOU COULD
HAVE WISCONSIN'S MAP EMBRACED BY
THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT AS
DRAWN BY TONY EVERS UNDER THESE
LEAST CHANGES GUIDELINES IN
PLACE FOR 2022, EVEN IF THE U.S.
SUPREME COURT DECIDES TO HEAR
THIS CHALLENGE.
BUT YOU KNOW, THEY'RE THE COURT
SO THEY CAN DECIDE.
>> RIGHT.
THEY ARE THE BIG ONES.
THEY GET TO DECIDE.
MEANWHILE, ASSEMBLY SPEAKER
ROBIN VOS THIS WEEK EXTENDED
MICHAEL GABLEMAN'S CONTRACT TO
CONTINUE INVESTIGATING THE 2020
ELECTION, TO WHICH FORMER
PRESIDENT TRUMP RESPONDED,
SAYING, QUOTE, IN ADDITION TO
ANNOUNCING THEY WILL STAY IN
SESSION AND TAKE ACTION TO GET
RID OF ERIC AND THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION, I WOULD
IMAGINE THAT THERE CAN ONLY BE,
HE SAID, A DECERTIFICATION OF
ELECTORS.
SO MY QUESTION IS, REALLY?
WHAT DID VOS SAY ABOUT ALL OF
THAT?
>> SO THERE'S A LOT TO UNPACK IN
THAT STATEMENT.
THERE ARE FOUR ASSERTIONS IN
THERE THAT ARE EITHER FALSE OR
THEY NEED CLARIFICATION.
ONE, THIS IDEA OF
DECERTIFICATION IS THE BIG ONE.
AND THERE IS -- FOR ONE, THERE'S
NOT SUPPORT IN THE EXISTING
LEGISLATURE TO DO THAT, WHICH IS
TO BASICALLY ERASE WISCONSIN'S
ELECTION RESULTS FOR THE 2020
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
ALSO, THE LEGISLATURE'S
NON-PARTISAN ATTORNEY SAYING
IT'S NOT LEGALLY POSSIBLE, WHICH
IS A VIEW THAT'S WIDELY HELD IN
THE ELECTION LAW COMMUNITY.
IF YOU GO THROUGH THE REST OF
THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S
STATEMENT, AS FAR AS WE KNOW,
THE LEGISLATURE HELD ITS LAST
SESSION DAY OF THE YEAR THIS
WEEK.
THEY CAN ALWAYS COME BACK,
THEY'RE THE LEGISLATURE, BUT
THEY'RE NOT PLANNING ON IT.
AND AS FAR AS ERIC, THE
ELECTRONIC REGISTRATION
INFORMATION CENTER, A
MULTI-STATE DATABASE OF
GOVERNMENT RECORDS, THAT IS
SOMETHING THAT WAS INITIATED BY
REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS UNDER
FORMER REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT
WALKER.
THEY HAVE NOT TALKED ABOUT
ENDING IT.
REPUBLICAN CANNED TAITS CANDIDATES FOR
GOVERNOR HAVE TALKED ABOUT
GETTING RID OF THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION SO THAT'S
SOMETHING THAT COULD HAPPEN BUT
IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN THIS
YEAR.
GOP LEADERS SAID THEY DON'T WANT
TO DO THAT, GOVERNOR TONY EVERS
DEFINITELY DOESN'T WANT TO DO
IT.
>> SO FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP MAY
BE JUST A LITTLE BIT BEHIND IN
HIS INFORMATION.
BUT I WANTED TO GET TO THIS,
TOO, QUICKLY.
THIS WEEK, GOVERNOR EVERS'
SPECIAL SESSION TO GIVE TAX
REFUNDS AND BOOST SCHOOL FUNDING
WENT EXACTLY WHERE?
>> IT WENT EXACTLY WHERE MANY
EVERS SPECIAL SESSIONS HAVE
GONE, WHICH IS, GAVELED IN,
GAVELED OUT AND DONE.
WHEN YOU'RE THE GOVERNOR, YOU
CAN CALL A SPECIAL SESSION OF
THE LEGISLATURE, BUT WHAT THAT
MEANS OFTEN ISN'T A LOT.
GOP LAWMAKERS BASICALLY
OFFICIALLY OPENED THE SESSION,
OFFICIALLY CLOSED IT, AND NOW
IT'S AN ISSUE FOR CAMPAIGN
SEASON, WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO
HAVE THE GOVERNOR SAYING, HEY, I
WANT TO GIVE YOU THESE $150 TAX
REBATES, ONLY ONES STANDING IN
THE WAY ARE REPUBLICAN
LAWMAKERS.
OF COURSE FOUR YEARS AGO, IT WAS
A DIFFERENT STORY WHEN THERE WAS
A REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR.
THEY DID APPROVE CHILD TAX
REBATES, BUT THEY'RE NOT GOING
TO DO IT THIS YEAR.
>> THEY'D LIKE TO GO AHEAD AND
DO THAT AFTER THE ELECTION.
>> THEY WOULD LIKE TO DO IT --
SOMETHING WITH A GOVERNOR FROM A
DIFFERENT PARTY, BUT YOU KNOW,
THAT DEFINITELY REMAINS TO BE
SEEN IN THIS NOVEMBER'S
ELECTION.
>> ALL RIGHT.
SHAWN JOHNSON, WE'LL LEAVE IT
THERE.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THE
ROUNDUP AND THE REALTIME FACT
CHECK.
APPRECIATE IT.
>> YOU'RE WELCOME.
>> IN MILWAUKEE, IS IT A NEW DAY
FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT THERE?
THERE IS A NEW CHIEF OF POLICE
IN MILWAUKEE AND NEW RULES.
IN THE LAST YEAR, THE CITY'S
POLICE AND FIRE COMMISSION
BANNED THE USE OF POLICE
CHOKE-HOLDS NO-KNOCK WARRANTS.
AND REQUIRED COMMUNITY ORIENTED
POLICING.
TAKE THE STATS ON NO-KNOCK
WARRANTS IN MILWAUKEE.
THEIR NUMBERS HAVE GONE FROM 72%
OF WARRANTS BEING EXECUTED IN
2019 TO JUST 2% LAST YEAR.
THAT'S A MEASURABLE DIFFERENCE.
THE CITY ALSO HAS A NEW CHAIR OF
THE POLICE AND FIRE COMMISSION.
HE'S MAR MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY LAW
PROFESSOR ED FALLONE.
HE JOINS US NOW AND THANKS VERY
MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> ALWAYS HAPPY TO SEE YOU,
FREDERICA.
>> IN A RECENT INTERVIEW, YOU
ARE QUOTED AS SAYING THAT WE
HAVE INSTITUTED THE GUARDIAN
MODEL OF POLICING VERSUS THE OLD
WARRIOR MODEL.
HOW DO THESE MODELS DIFFER?
>> WELL, THIS POLICY COMES FROM
OUR POLICE CHIEF, JEFF NORMAN,
AND IT'S ABOUT COLLABORATION
WITH THE COMMUNITY, OUTREACH TO
THE COMMUNITY, AND IMPROVING
PUBLIC SAFETY BY FORMING
PARTNERSHIPS WITH THE COMMUNITY.
AND SO THAT VIEWS POLICE
OFFICERS AS GUARDIANS OF THE
COMMUNITY.
AND I THINK WE HAVE A HISTORY,
RECENT HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY
OF A DIFFERENT PHILOSOPHY, AND
THAT'S THE WARRIOR MENTALITY,
THAT THE POLICE ARE OUT THERE TO
CONFRONT THE BAD GUYS, AND THAT
THE PUBLIC SOMETIMES GETS CAUGHT
IN THE INTERACTIONS.
AND THAT SOMETIMES THE POLICE
HAVE VIEWED THE PUBLIC WITH
SUSPICION.
SO IT'S A HUGE CONTRAST, AND WE
THINK WE ARE MOVING FORWARD IN
THE RIGHT DIRECTION UNDER POLICE
CHIEF NORMAN.
>> SO WE'VE SHOWN THE NUMBER OF
NO-KNOCK WARRANTS BEING REDUCED
TO JUST 2% IN 2021.
WHAT HAVE BEEN THE EFFECTS OF
THAT ON THE ABILITY TO CAPTURE
SUSPECTS AND SOLVE CRIME IN THE
CITY?
>> WELL, WE'VE HAD A CONCERTED
EFFORT TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF
NO-KNOCK WARRANTS, AND AS YOU
INDICATED WITH YOUR STATISTICS,
THE EXCEPTION HAD BECOME THE
RULE.
70% OF THE WARRANTS SERVED HAVE
BEEN NO-KNOCK.
NO-KNOCKS WERE INTENDED TO BE
THE EXCEPTION AND TO BE USED IN
EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES TO RECOVER
EVIDENCE OF CRIME OR TO OBTAIN A
SUSPECT WHEN THERE WAS NO OTHER
WAY TO DO SO.
AND SO UNDER CHIEF NORMAN, WE
HAVE A YEAR-LONG PROCESS OF
EXAMINING THE PROCEDURES, AND
SUCCESSIVE REDUCTION EVERY YEAR
OF THE NUMBER OF NO-KNOCK
WARRANTS EXECUTED IN MILWAUKEE
UNTIL THE CHIEF GOT IT DOWN TO
JUST SIX IN THE YEAR 2021.
AND AT THAT STAGE, THE FIRE AND
POLICE COMMISSION INTERACTED
WITH THE POLICE AND SAID, WE
WANT FACTS, WHAT WERE THE
SCENARIOS WHERE THESE SIX WERE
EXECUTED, AND IS IT POSSIBLE TO
GET FROM SIX TO ZERO?
AND AFTER THAT YEAR-LONG
PROCESS, THE COMMISSION DECIDED,
YES, WE WOULD BAN THE POLICE
DEPARTMENT IN MILWAUKEE FROM
USING NO-KNOCKS.
WHEN YOU'RE DOWN TO THAT SMALL A
LEVEL, LESS THAN 2% OF ALL
WARRANTS EXECUTED, AT THAT
STAGE, THE BAN IS NOT GOING TO
HAVE ANY FURTHER IMPACT ON
POLICING.
>> WHAT ABOUT OFFICER SAFETY,
BECAUSE I KNOW THE POLICE UNION
WORRIES NOW THAT ITS OFFICERS
CAN'T SURPRISE SUSPECTS AND ARE
PUT IN GREATER DANGER.
>> WELL, WE'RE VERY CONCERNED
ABOUT OFFICER SAFETY.
AND REALLY, IN THIS ENTIRE
PROCESS OF EXAMINING NO-KNOCK
WARRANTS, IT WAS A MATTER OF
WEIGHING RISK TO THE SAFETY OF
OFFICERS VERSUS RISK TO THE
PUBLIC.
AND THERE'S NO WAY TO GET TO
ZERO RISK ON EITHER SIDE OF THAT
EQUATION.
AND I THINK WHAT YOUR VIEWERS
SHOULD UNDERSTAND IS THAT IN
MILWAUKEE, WE HAVE HIGH-DENSITY
RESIDENTIAL NEIGHBORHOODS, HIGH
MULTI-FAMILY SITUATIONS INSIDE
EVEN DETACHED HOMES, WE HAVE
RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES WITH
MULTIPLE UNITS IN THEM, AND SO
ANY TIME THERE'S A SERVING OF A
NO-KNOCK WARRANT, THERE'S A LOT
OF PEOPLE NEARBY, A LOT OF
INNOCENT PEOPLE, NEXT DOOR
NEIGHBORS OR EVEN IN THE SAME
BUILDING.
AND SO WE'RE TRYING TO REDUCE
THE RISK TO OFFICERS, BUT WE'RE
ALSO TRYING TO REDUCE THE RISK
TO OTHER RESIDENTS NEARBY, IF
VIOLENCE BREAKS OUT.
AND THERE'S NO WAY TO GET TO
ZERO ON EITHER EQUATION, AND SO
WE FELT ULTIMATELY THAT THE
NO-KNOCKS CREATED AN
UNACCEPTABLE LEVEL OF RISK.
>> THE STATE SENATE THIS WEEK
PASSED A MEASURE TO PROHIBIT
CITIES FROM BANNING NO-KNOCK
WARRANTS.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> WELL, I THINK IT'S A MISTAKE
TO TRY AND SET POLICING POLICY
FROM MADISON FOR THE ENTIRE
STATE, AND TO HAVE
REPRESENTATIVES OF SMALLER
COMMUNITIES IN OUR STATE TRY TO
DICTATE THE POLICING STRATEGIES
AND TACTICS IN OUR LARGER URBAN
AREAS.
I WANT TO RE-EMPHASIZE THAT THE
EFFORT TO REDUCE THE INCIDENCE
OF NO-KNOCK WARRANTS IN
MILWAUKEE BEGAN WITH OUR POLICE
CHIEF, WHO IS VERY CONCERNED
ABOUT REBUILDING COMMUNITY
TRUST, REBUILDING COMMUNITY
RELATIONSHIPS AFTER SEVERAL
YEARS, WHERE QUITE FRANKLY
WITNESSES STOPPED COOPERATING
WITH THE POLICE.
AND INFORMANTS STOPPED CALLING
THE POLICE.
AND IT BECAME MORE DIFFICULT TO
CLOSE OPEN CASES.
AND STEP ONE IN CHANGING THAT IS
REBUILDING TRUST.
AND SO REALLY, THIS IS PART OF
THAT PHILOSOPHY OF
RE-ESTABLISHING A CLOSER
COLLABORATIVE RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN RESIDENTS AND THE POLICE
AND REDUCING CRIME.
IT WORKS FOR OUR CITY, AND IT'S,
I THINK, BETTER TO LEAVE THIS TO
LOCAL CONTROL.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE LEAVE IT THERE, ED FALLONE,
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR TALKING
WITH US ABOUT THIS.
>> IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE,
FREDERICA.
THANK YOU.
>> FOR MORE ON THIS AND OTHER
ISSUES IMPACTING WISCONSIN,
VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG AND THEN CLICK
ON THE NEWS TAB.
THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
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