PLEASE STAND BY.
>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY."
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST FOR "MERE -- HERE AND
NOW" ON PBS WISCONSIN.
IT'S JANUARY 26TH.
THEDACARE FILED FOR A TEMPORARY
RESTRAINING ORDER LAST WEEK TO
TRY AND PREVENT SEVEN
SPECIALIZED HEALTH WORKERS FROM
STARTING NEW JOBS AT COMPETING
HEALTH SYSTEM ASCENSION.
ARGUING THE EMPLOYEES LEAVING
DURING THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC
HEALTH CRISIS WOULD RISK THE
SAFETY OF PATIENTS.
NOW, THIS STORY HAS RECEIVED
NATIONAL ATTENTION OVER THE
WEEKEND AS HEALTH SYSTEMS
CONTINUE TO BE OVERWHELMED BY
THE PANDEMIC AND YET, OUR
HEMORRHAGING WORKERS WHO ARE
QUITTING OR FINDING BETTER
OPPORTUNITIES.
SO JOINING ME TO DISCUSS HER
REPORTING ON THIS IS MADELINE
HEIM, A HEALTH REPORTER FOR THE
"APPLETON POST-CRESCENT" AND THE
"USA TODAY" NETWORK AND THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
ME.
>> NOW, YOU RECEIVED COMMENT
FROM THEDACARE LATE LAST WEEK,
CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THEY WERE
ARGUING IN ISSUING THIS
TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER AND
WHAT THEY TOLD YOU?
>> YEAH SO THEDACARE LAST
THURSDAY FILED FOR A TEMPORARY
RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST
ASCENSION WHICH IS THE OTHER
HOSPITAL IN APPLETON FOR TRYING
TO -- WHAT THEY WERE ARGUING WAS
TRYING TO GROUP RECRUIT THOSE
SEVEN EMPLOYEES AWAY AT ONCE.
IN THE COMPLAINT, THEY DESCRIBED
IT AS COACHING AND THOSE SEVEN
EMPLOYEES ARE PART OF AN
11-MEMBER TEAM THAT, LIKE YOU
SAID IS SPECIALIZED.
THEY DO INTERVENTIONAL RADIOLOGY
THAT COMES INTO PLAY WITH TRAUMA
AND STROKE PATIENTS SO THEDACARE
INITIALLY WAS ARGUING THAT, YOU
KNOW, NOT ONLY DID ASCENSION
SEEK TO TAKE THESE WORKERS AWAY
ALL AT THE SAME TIME WHICH WILL
LEAVE THEM WITH ONLY FOUR OUT OF
11 TEAM MEMBERS LEFT ON THAT
TEAM, BUT IT ALSO CAME, LIKE YOU
SAID, DURING A REALLY STRESSFUL
TIME FOR HEALTH CARE WHEN, YOU
KNOW, EVERYONE IS LOOKING FOR
MORE WORKERS.
EVERYNE IS LOSING WORKERS.
AND SO THEY HAD FILED THAT
TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER TO
ASK THE COURT TO INTERVENE AND
BLOCK THOSE WORKERS TEMPORARILY
FROM LEAVING THEDACARE OR BLOCK
THEM FROM STARTING AT ASCENSION
TO GIVE THEDACARE ENOUGH TIME TO
FIND REPLACEMENTS.
>> AND AS WE KNOW, MANY
BUSINESSES, INCLUDING HEALTH
CARE, WILL REQUIRE EMPLOYEES TO
SIGN CONTRACTS THAT INCLUDE
NON-COMPETE CLAUSES.
BUT IN THIS CASE, THESE WERE AT
WILL EMPLOYEES MEANING THEY HAD
NO CONTRACT, NO OBLIGATION TO
STAY WITH THEDACARE OR TO
PREVENT THEM FROM SEEKING
EMPLOYMENT EVEN WITH A
COMPETITOR.
IS THAT CORRECT?
>> THAT IS CORRECT.
THEY WERE ALL AT WILL EMPLOYEES,
THEY ALL WERE FREE TO TAKE JOBS
ELSEWHERE AND THAT IS ONE THING
THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE
COURTROOM, THEDACARE LAWYERS DID
SAY IS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE FINE
WITH THEM SEEKING JOBS
ELSEWHERE.
THEY TOOK ISSUE MORE WITH
ASCENSION, YOU KNOW, TAKING THEM
ALL AT ONCE.
BUT, YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING
THING IS THAT THESE EMPLOYEES
ALL CAME UPON THE JOB POSTINGS
FROM ASCENSION SO ASCENSION HAD
NOT -- THEY ARGUED THEY HAD NOT
REACHED OUT AND TRIED TO TAKE
ALL THESE REPORTERS AT ONCE,
THAT, YOU KNOW, IT STARTED WITH
ONE EMPLOYEE WHO, YOU KNOW,
RECEIVED AN OFFER AND LIKED THE
BENEFITS AND THE PAY.
AND THEN SHE TOLD THE REST OF
HER TEAM.
AND YOU KNOW, IT KIND OF WENT
FROM THERE.
SO NO, THEY WERE NOT UNDER ANY
CONTRACT AND THEY WERE FREE TO
LEAVE.
>> NOW, BECAUSE OF THE URGENCY
OF THEDACARE'S ACTION ON THE
SURFACE, IT APPEARED AS IF ALL
OF THIS WAS HAPPENING REALLY
SUDDENLY BUT YOUR REPORTING
FOUND THAT THESE EMPLOYEES
ACTUALLY GAVE PLENTY OF NOTICE
TO THEDACARE AND EVEN AN
OPPORTUNITY TO COUNTER
ASCENSION'S OFFER, IS THAT
RIGHT?
>> YEAH, THAT IS.
SO IN THE COURT PROCEEDINGS, WE
GOT KIND OF A DETAILED ACCOUNT
OF THE TIMELINE OF THIS ISSUE
AND THE FIRST EMPLOYEE WHO HAD
APPLIED FOR A JOB AT ASCENSION
WAS DOING THAT WORK, YOU KNOW,
AT THE END OF NOVEMBER, EARLY
DECEMBER.
AND THEN ON DECEMBER 21ST WAS
WHEN THEY HAD ALL ACTUALLY
RECEIVED THEIR OFFERS AND THEY
TOOK THOSE OFFERS TO THEDACARE
AND SAID, YOU KNOW, WOULD YOU BE
WILLING TO MATCH THIS?
AND THEDACARE TOOK ABOUT A WEEK
AND THEN CAME BACK AND,
ACCORDING TO THE EMPLOYEES, SAID
NO.
ACTUALLY, THE QUOTE THAT WAS
MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN THE
PROCEEDINGS WAS THAT THE SHORT
TERM COST RIGHT NOW TO THEDACARE
WAS NOT WORTH THE LONG TERM
EXPENSE OF PAYING THEM MORE.
SO FROM THAT POINT FORWARD, YOU
KNOW, THEY PUT IN THEIR
RESIGNATION AND THEN A COUPLE OF
OTHER NURSES DID THE SAME THING
AND, YEAH, IT ENDED UP BEING,
YOU KNOW, THERE WERE A FEW WEEKS
IN BETWEEN WHEN THEDACARE HAD,
YOU KNOW, DECIDED NOT TO MATCH
THE OFFER AND WHEN THEY FILED
THE LEGAL ACTION.
AND THEY SAY THAT THEY, YOU
KNOW, TRIED TO MEET WITH
ASCENSION AND, YOU KNOW, DISCUSS
A SOLUTION THAT WOULDN'T HAVE
BROUGHT THEM TO THE COURTROOM
BUT THAT ULTIMATELY DID NOT
WORK.
>> NOW, A COUNTY JUDGE DID
INITIALLY GRANT THE RESTRAINING
ORDER LATE LAST WEEK.
WHY DID HE ALLOW IT?
AND DID IT HOLD?
>> YEAH, SO THE JUDGE MARK
McGINNESS HEARD THAT CASE.
HE SIGNED THAT TEMPORARY
RESTRAINING ORDER RIGHT AWAY ON
FRIDAY OR THURSDAY NIGHT.
IT WAS RELATIVELY SOON AFTER.
AND HE SAID THAT HE SIGNED IT
BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW,
PERCEIVED GRAVE DANGER TO PUBLIC
SAFETY THAT THEDACARE ALLEGED IN
THEIR COMPLAINT AND THEY WERE
ALLEGING THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE
LOSE THESE TEAM MEMBERS ALL AT
ONCE, THERE WON'T BE ENOUGH CARE
IN FOX VALLEY TO CARE FOR STROKE
AND TRAUMA VICTIMS.
SO MARK McGINNISS SAID HE
THOUGHT THAT WAS PRETTY SERIOUS
AND WANTED TO GET IT ON THE
CALENDAR RIGHT AWAY.
HE SIGNED THAT RESTRAINING ORDER
NOT FOR THE FULL 90 DAYS THAT
THEDACARE HAD INITIALLY ASKED
FOR THE WORKERS TO NOT WORK AT
ASCENSION.
HE WAS AIMING TO HAVE THEM WRAP
IT UP IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME
OVER THE WEEKEND AND SO THE
WORKERS COULD GO TO WORK ON
MONDAY.
SO HE HAD SIGNED IT BUT ASKED
THE TWO PARTIES TO TALK AND TRY
TO COME TO A SOLUTION.
UNFORTUNATELY, THAT DID NOT
HAPPEN SO THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO
GO TO WORK ON MONDAY.
THEY WERE ALL IN THE COURTROOM
ON MONDAY.
HOWEVER, THAT ORDER WAS
ULTIMATELY DISMISSED BY THE
JUDGE ON MONDAY AND THEY WERE
ABLE TO REPORT TO WORK ON
TUESDAY.
SO THE LARGER CASE WILL KEEP
GOING FORWARD BUT THE TEMPORARY
RESTRAINING ORDER WAS DISMISSED.
>> AND THAT GETS TO MY NEXT
QUESTION.
WHERE DO THINGS STAND NOW AND
WHAT DOES FURTHER ACTION FROM
EITHER SIDE LOOK LIKE?
AND YOU SAY THE TEMPORARY
RESTRAINING ORDER IS NO LONGER
IN EFFECT BUT THERE'S A LARGER
CASE.
WHAT'S IN THE LARGER CASE?
>> SO IT'S A LITTLE UNCLEAR IN
THIS CASE.
THEDACARE IS GOING TO TRY TO
ARGUE THAT ASCENSION DID
SOMETHING WRONG IN TRYING TO
TAKE ALL THOSE EMPLOYEES AT
ONCE.
AND ON ASCENSION'S END, THEY
WERE GROUP RECRUITING SOMEHOW
AND, YOU KNOW, DECIDED TO TAKE
THEM ALL AT ONCE KNOWING THAT
WOULD KIND OF DEBILITATE
THEDACARE'S TEAM.
WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, THE SPECIFICS OF WHEN THAT
IS GOING TO PLAY OUT OR EVEN
KIND OF WHAT THE LEGAL REMEDY IS
TO THAT.
THAT ALL KIND OF REMAINS TO BE
SEEN.
BUT, YEAH, THE EMPLOYEES WERE
ABLE TO GO TO WORK SO THEY ARE
NOW ASCENSION EMPLOYEES AND, YOU
KNOW, FAIR TO GET PAID FOR THEIR
WORK NOW.
>> I HEARD YOU USE THE PHRASE
GROUP RECRUITING A COUPLE OF
TIMES.
IS THAT SOMETHING IN AND OF
ITSELF IS ILLEGAL OR ACTIONABLE?
OR ARE THEY JUST TRYING TO ARGUE
MORE ON THE PUBLIC HEALTH SIDE?
THIS IS, AS YOU SAID,
DEBILITATING THEDACARE?
>> YEAH, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE.
I AM LOOKING TO SPEAK WITH SOME
LEGAL EXPERTS IN THE NEXT COUPLE
OF DAYS TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT
EXACTLY WHERE THE LEGAL ARGUMENT
LIES.
BUT THAT PUBLIC HEALTH COMPONENT
IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THEY
ARE PUSHING, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE
SAYING THAT IN NORMAL TIMES, YOU
KNOW, EMPLOYEES SWITCH BETWEEN
THOSE SYSTEMS ALL THE TIME.
WE REGULARLY SEE PEOPLE GOING IN
BOTH DIRECTIONS FROM BOTH ST.
ELIZABETH AND THEDACARE.
BUT THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING
THAT, YOU KNOW, DOING IT DURING
THE PANDEMIC WHEN EVERYONE IS
INCREDIBLY SHORT STAFFED AND,
YOU KNOW, JUST REALLY, REALLY
HURTING FOR WORK IS, YOU KNOW,
ESPECIALLY KIND OF DIFFICULT AND
PUTS THEM IN AN ESPECIALLY
DIFFICULT POSITION.
>> NOW, HAVE YOU, IN YOUR
REPORTING, COME ACROSS OTHER
CASES LIKE THIS THAT, YOU KNOW,
THEDACARE MIGHT BE ABLE TO POINT
TO OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S
BRAND NEW?
>> YEAH, I HAVE NOT, ALTHOUGH I
DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT, YOU
KNOW, IT'S NEVER HAPPENED.
I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE ABOUT THAT.
I DON'T THINK AT LEAST HERE IN
THE FOX VALLEY WE'VE SEEN
ANYTHING LIKE THIS.
AGAIN, I THINK IT SPEAKS TO THE
STRESS OF THE PANDEMIC AND THE
STRESS OF, YOU KNOW, HOSPITALS
ALREADY BEING SO SHORT STAFFED
AND HAVING TO RELY ON, YOU KNOW,
THINGS LIKE TRAVELING NURSE
AGENCIES AND THINGS TO GET BY.
I THINK THAT'S REALLY, YOU KNOW,
WHERE THIS LAWSUIT IS COMING
FROM BECAUSE THEDACARE AND
ASCENSION DO HAVE A REPUTATION
HERE, YOU KNOW, FOR WORKING
TOGETHER.
AND THEY'VE WORKED TOGETHER
THROUGH A LOT OF THE PANDEMIC
AND KIND OF SHARED SERVICES.
AND SO THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, AT
LEAST FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, A
LITTLE UNPRECEDENTED BECAUSE
THEY DO USUALLY TRY TO WORK
TOGETHER.
BUT I THINK IT'S JUST REALLY
INDICATIVE OF, YOU KNOW, OF
BREAKING POINT IN THAT, YOU
KNOW, PEOPLE ARE SO, YOU KNOW,
LOOKING FOR STAFF.
IT'S GETTING REALLY CHALLENGING.
>> IT'S ALSO KIND OF INDICATIVE
OF, YOU KNOW, HEALTH CARE BEING
IN A BUSINESS MODEL,
ENCAPSULATES THIS MASSIVE
STRUGGLE BETWEEN, AS WE'VE
TALKED ABOUT, THE HEALTH CARE
SHORTAGE OF EMPLOYEES ACROSS THE
BOARD.
NOT EVEN JUST HIGHLY SPECIALIZED
WORKERS BUT NURSES, TOO, IN A
PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS BUT
CRUSHING SYSTEMS.
AND AS YOU'VE SAID, YOU KNOW,
THEDACARE WAS ARGUING THAT THE
SHORT TERM COST DOESN'T JUSTIFY
THE LONG TERM COST AND THAT'S
ALSO PLAYING OUT WITH NURSES AS
WELL.
NURSES ARE ASKING FOR RAISES.
THEY'RE NOT GETTING IT.
AND WITH THAT SAME ARGUMENT AND
SO THEY QUIT AND BECOME
TRAVELING NURSES WHICH PAYS A
LOT MORE MONEY.
AND THEN SYSTEMS, IN TURN, ARE
WILLING TO PAY THAT MUCH MORE
MONEY FOR A MORE SHORT TERM
CONTRACTED EMPLOYEE.
AND IT SEEMS LIKE MORE AND MORE
OF THESE, AS YOU DESCRIBED IT,
BREAKING POINTS ARE HAPPENING.
>> YEAH, I THINK SO.
AND ONE POINT THAT I REALLY KIND
OF WANTED TO MAKE IS THAT, YOU
KNOW, LIKE YOU SAID, WE HAVE,
YOU KNOW, THE SITUATION THAT,
YOU KNOW, THEY SAID THAT THE
SHORT TERM COSTS WEREN'T WORTH
THE LONG TERM EXPENSE.
BUT NOW, THEY WILL BE PAYING --
THE LONG TERM EXPENSE OR, YOU
KNOW, THE SHORT TERM COST WILL
BE PRETTY HIGH BECAUSE NOW,
THEY'VE GOT TO PAY OTHER
EMPLOYEES BONUSES.
SOMETIMES BONUSES ON TOP OF
BONUSES TO, YOU KNOW, WORK EXTRA
SHIFTS TO COVER THESE, YOU KNOW,
THESE OPEN POSITIONS.
THEY ALSO MENTIONED IN THE COURT
THEY HAVE HIRED A VENDOR TO COME
IN AND TRAIN SOME OF THEIR
EMPLOYEES WHO DO SIMILAR JOBS
BUT NOT QUITE THE SAME.
ON HOW TO DO THOSE SPECIFIC
ROLES, AND THAT VENDOR WAS
COSTING THEM $11,000.
SO, YOU KNOW, THE SHORT TERM
COST IS GOING TO END UP BEING
PRETTY HIGH FOR THEDACARE JUST
BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, OF THE
SITUATION THAT THE WHOLE WORLD,
WHOLE HEALTH CARE WORLD IS IN
RIGHT NOW.
>> AND NOT TO MENTION, THE LEGAL
EXPENSE OF NOW A FUTURE BATTLE,
AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED.
SO, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE
DAY, HEALTH SYSTEMS ARE A
BUSINESS.
SO COULD WE SEE THIS POSSIBLY
SETTING A NEW PRECEDENT, DO YOU
THINK POTENTIALLY THIS COULD
OPEN THE DOOR FOR MORE CASES
LIKE THIS TO BE HAPPENING AS THE
BREAKING POINT CONTINUES TO BE,
YOU KNOW, REACHED EVERY DAY
ACROSS THE COUNTRY?
>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT
REALLY SURE AND I DO HOPE TO ASK
SOME OF THE LEGAL EXPERTS THAT
I'M TALKING TO ABOUT THAT.
BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
WE'LL DEFINITELY KEEP SEEING THE
ROOT OF THIS ISSUE WHICH WAS
THAT EMPLOYEES, YOU KNOW, WHO
HAD WORKED REALLY HARD WANTED A
BETTER WORK/LIFE BALANCE AND
THEY, YOU KNOW, DECIDED TO GO
GET IT INSTEAD OF, YOU KNOW,
STAYING WHERE THEY WERE, WHERE
THEY WEREN'T AS HAPPY.
I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS
YOU SAID, HEALTH CARE IS A
BUSINESS AND, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S
GOING TO BE RUN LIKE A BUSINESS,
THAT'S GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING
AND SO, I THINK IT REMAINS TO BE
SEEN WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW,
HEALTH CARE COMPANIES WILL WANT
TO TAKE THAT TO COURT LIKE
THEDACARE DID.
BUT I THINK THE ROOT OF THE
ISSUE IS DEFINITELY GOING TO
KEEP HAPPENING.
I THINK WE'RE DEFINITELY GOING
TO SEE THAT GOING FORWARD.
>> WELL, IT'S VERY INTERESTING
TOPIC, AND GREAT REPORTING.
IF YOU WANT TO SEE MADELINE
HEIM'S REPORTING, IT'S AT THE
"APPLETON POST-CRESCENT", ALSO
PART OF THE "USA TODAY" NETWORK.
MADELINE HEIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
"NOON WEDNESDAY."