ETHICS KAROLA KREITMAIR MANDELA
BARNES ROBIN VOS BARRY BURDEN
TIMOTHY RAMTHUN JAKE BAGGOT WILL
CUSHMAN
>> OUR NEXT GUEST IS THE POINT
PERSON FOR ALL OF THIS AT
UW-MADISON.
JAKE BAGGOT IS ASSOCIATE
VICE-CHANCELLOR AND EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY
HEALTH SERVICES.
HE JOINS US NOW AND THANKS VERY
MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> SO WHAT KIND OF TREPIDATION
DO YOU HAVE WITH STUDENTS
RETURNING FROM ALL CORNERS IN
THE MIDST OF THIS FAST-SPREADING
OMICRON VARIANT?
>> OBVIOUSLY WE'RE GIVING A LOT
OF THOUGHT TO THAT AND GIVING
ADVICE TO OUR STUDENTS ABOUT HOW
TO TRAVEL HERE AND THEN WHAT TO
DO WHEN THEY ARRIVE.
SO WE GIVE THEM INSTRUCTIONS,
YOU KNOW, THAT WHEN THEY'RE
READY TO TRAVEL HERE, BEFORE
THEY DO THAT GO AHEAD AND GET
TESTED AT HOME.
AND IF THEY END UP WITH A
POSITIVE RESULT, TO STAY THERE
UNTIL THOSE SYMPTOMS RESOLVE AND
THEY'RE CLEAR TO TRAVEL.
BUT WE'RE READY FOR THEM TO GET
TESTED WHETHER THEY LIVE IN THE
RESIDENCE HALL OR LIVE
OFF-CAMPUS.
>> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A
PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
PRODUCTION.
>> COVID-19 CASES ARE THROUGH
THE ROOF, AND WISCONSIN HAS NOT
YET SEEN THE PEAK OF OMICRON
INFECTIONS.
CASES AND HOSPITALIZATIONS IN
CHILDREN ARE ON THE RISE,
PROMPTING PUBLIC HEALTH DOCTORS
TO DOUBLE DOWN ON PREVENTION AND
SAFETY.
>> GETTING YOUR CHILD VACCINATED
AGAINST COVID-19 AND GETTING
THEM BOOSTED IF THEY'RE ELIGIBLE
NOT ONLY PROTECTS THEM FROM THE
SHORT-TERM IMPACT OF COVID-19,
BUT ALSO FROM SOME OF THE
LONG-TERM SYMPTOMS AS WELL.
>> I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW," WITH
COVID-19 CASES NOT YET AT THEIR
PEAK BUT HUGELY SPIKING, WHAT
ARE UW CAMPUSES LOOKING AHEAD TO
AS STUDENTS RETURN FOR SPRING
SEMESTER?
A BIOETHICIST EXPLAINS HOW
DECISIONS ARE MADE ABOUT HOW TO
GIVE COVID CARE AND WISCONSIN IS
A MICROCOSM OF EFFORTS
NATIONWIDE TO UPSET ELECTION
PROCEDURES IN THE AFTERMATH OF
2020.
IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR JANUARY
21.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.
>> NEXT WEEK MARKS THE START OF
THE SPRING SEMESTER ON THE
FLAGSHIP CAMPUS OF THE UW.
MADISON WELCOMES STUDENTS BACK
TO CLASS IN THE MIDST OF A
MASSIVE SPIKE IN COVID-19 CASES
STATEWIDE, INCLUDING WITH
BEEFED-UP TESTING AVAILABILITIES
AND NEW VACCINE CLINICS.
OTHER SYSTEM CAMPUSES ALSO
PREPARED WITH UPDATED GUIDANCE
AND MITIGATION STRATEGIST.
OUR NEXT GUEST IS THE POINT
PERSON FOR ALL OF THIS AT
UW-MADISON.
JAKE BAGGOT IS ASSOCIATE
VICE-CHANCELLOR AND EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE UNIVERSITY
HEALTH SERVICES.
HE JOINS US NOW AND THANKS VERY
MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> GOON.
IT'S GOOD TO BE HERE.
THANK YOU.
>> SO WHAT TREPIDATION DO YOU
HAVE WITH STUDENTS RETURNING IN
THE MIDST OF THIS FAST-SPREADING
OMICRON VARIANT?
<!32768> WE'RE GIVING A THOUGHT
OF LOT TO THAT AND GIVING ADVICE
TO OUR STUDENTS ABOUT HOW TO
TRAVEL HERE AND WHAT TO DO WHEN
THEY ARRIVE.
WE'VE GIVEN THEM INSTRUCTIONS
THAT WHEN THEY'RE READY TO
TRAVEL HERE, BEFORE THEY DO THAT
GO AHEAD AND GET TESTED AT HOME.
AND IF THEY END UP WITH A
POSITIVE RESULT, TO STAY THERE
UNTIL THOSE SYMPTOMS RESOLVE AND
THEY'RE CLEARED TO TRAVEL.
BUT EVEN AFTER THEY GET HERE,
WE'RE READY FOR THEM TO GET
TESTED WHETHER THEY LIVE IN THE
RESIDENCE HALL OR OFF CAMPUS SO
WE CAN IDENTIFY ANY CASES THAT
MIGHT HAVE BEEN MISSED EARLIER
ON.
THAT WILL DO A LOT TO PREPARE
OUR STUDENTS.
ON TOP OF THAT, WE HAVE A HIGH
LEVEL OF VACCINATION WITHIN OUR
POPULATION.
OUR STUDENTS HAVE RESPONDED VERY
STRONGLY SO WE HAVE A HIGH LEVEL
OF PROTECTION ALREADY IN PLACE.
>> IF STUDENTS IN DORMS WHEN
THEY GET BACK GET A POSITIVE
RESULT, ARE THERE ADDITIONAL
ISOLATION OR QUARANTINE LIVING
SPACES FOR STUDENTS?
>> RIGHT.
SO WE'RE IN OUR FIFTH SEMESTER
OF WORKING THROUGH THIS KIND OF
THING, SO WE'VE GOT A FAIR
AMOUNT OF EXPERIENCE.
SO WE'RE ALREADY PREPARED WITH
ON-CAMPUS HOUSING CAPACITY TO
SUPPORT THAT NEED SHOULD IT
ARISE AND ALSO ADDITIONAL
CAPACITY IN THE COMMUNITY
THROUGH HOTELS.
IF WE HAVE A NEED, WE CAN EXPAND
THAT CAPACITY.
BUT I FEEL LIKE WE'RE WELL
PREPARED TO RESPOND WHEN THAT
NEED DEVELOPS.
>> I KNOW THAT MASKS CONTINUE TO
BE REQUIRED IN UNIVERSITY
BUILDINGS, AND NOW N95s ARE
RECOMMENDED.
UW-MADISON HAS A LARGE STOCK OF
THOSE.
I SHOULD SAY THAT WE WERE ABLE
TO GET SOME FROM UW-MADISON.
THANK YOU.
BUT CAN STUDENTS GET THEM?
>> SO YES.
WE HAVE A LARGE SUPPLY OF BOTH
THOSE KINDS OF MASKS AS WELL AS
HIGH-GRADE SURGICAL MASKS
AVAILABLE FOR OUR STUDENTS AND
OUR POPULATION, OUR CAMPUS
POPULATION IN GENERAL.
AND SO THOSE WILL BE AVAILABLE
TO STUDENTS.
WHEN THEY ARRIVE THEY CAN GET
THOSE WHEN THEY PICK UP THEIR
TEST KITS AT THE SITES HERE ON
CAMPUS.
WHAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT THE MASKS
IS TO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE ONE
THAT'S GOOD-FITTING, THAT IT'S
PROVIDING THE LEVEL OF
PROTECTION THAT IT'S DESIGNED TO
DO SO.
AND WHETHER IT'S A SURGICAL MASK
OR A KN95 OR K95.
>> SO I KNOW THAT THERE ARE HIGH
RATES OF VACCINATION AMONG
STUDENTS AND STAFF AT
UW-MADISON.
WHAT ABOUT BOOSTERS?
WHAT IS YOUR GUIDANCE AROUND
BOOSTERS FOR THE ENTIRE
POPULATION?
>> SO THE GUIDANCE FROM US AND
CDC AND DHS HAS BEEN IF YOU'RE
ELIGIBLE TO GET BOOSTED, GO
AHEAD AND GET BOOSTED AND WE'VE
BEEN ENCOURAGING STUDENTS, STAFF
AND EMPLOYEES TO GO AHEAD AND DO
THAT.
WE KNOW THAT THAT HAPPENED
STARTING BEFORE THEY LEFT FOR
THE BREAK AND WE ARE SET UP TO
SUPPORT THAT NEED WHEN STUDENTS
ARRIVE.
WE'LL HAVE ADDED CAPACITY TO DO
THAT.
BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT MANY
INDIVIDUALS HAVE ALREADY DONE
THAT OVER THE BREAK.
THEY'RE SHARING THAT INFORMATION
WITH US AND WE'RE SEEING A VERY
STRONG RESPONSE.
WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE TO
ENCOURAGE FOLKS TO DO THAT AS
SOON AS THEY'RE ELIGIBLE.
THAT'S AN IMPORTANT LEVEL OF
PROTECTION AS WELL.
>> AS STUDENTS ARE RETURNING
REALLY ACROSS THE STATE, WHAT IS
YOUR OVERALL MESSAGE TO STUDENTS
NEWLY RETURNING TO CAMPUS?
>> SURE.
THE THINGS THAT THEY'VE BEEN
DOING ALL ALONG TO PROTECT
THEMSELVES, THOSE GOOD HEALTH
PRACTICES, TO BE THOUGHTFUL
ABOUT HOW YOU SPEND YOUR TIME,
WEAR FACE COVERINGS WHEN INSIDE,
WHEN YOU'RE NOT SURE IF YOU'RE
AROUND FULLY VACCINATED
INDIVIDUALS.
TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE TESTING
CAPACITY.
IT'S AVAILABLE HERE ON CAMPUS,
IN OUR COMMUNITIES AND EVEN THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS STARTING
TO ROLL OUT IN LARGER NUMBERS.
THOSE THINGS WILL HELP YOU KIND
OF PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT'S GOING
ON, FOLLOW HEALTH PROTOCOLS AND
WE FEEL LIKE WE'LL BE IN A
STRONG POSITION GOING INTO THE
SEMESTER.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE.
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR WORK
AND WE'LL SEE HOW THIS GOES AS
THE THRONGS RETURN.
JAKE BAGGOT, THANKS VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> ONE PERSON WHO WILL CONTEND
WITH THE PANDEMIC AT THE
UNIVERSITY IS THE NEW SYSTEM
PRESIDENT.
TODAY THE UW BOARD OF REGENTS
UNANIMOUSLY VOTED TO NAME JAY
ROTHMAN AT THE PRESIDENT OF THE
UNIVERSITY SYSTEM.
HE'S THE CHAIRMAN AND CEO OF
FOLEY & LARDNER, A GRADUATE OF
MARQUETTE AND HARVARD LAW, HE
ALSO PREVIOUSLY SERVED AS
CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD OF
CHILDRENS, WISCONSIN.
ROTHMAN SAID HE IS HUMBLED BY
THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEAD THE UW
SYSTEM.
HE WILL START IN HIS ROLE JUNE 1
AND THIS REMINDER.
PBS WISCONSIN IS PART OF
UW-MADISON.
>> THIS WEEK SOME 80 NATIONAL
GUARD MEMBERS TOOK PART IN NURSE
TRAINING, A STEP THE STATE IS
TAKING TO PROVIDE HEALTH TO THE
STRAINED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM IN
WISCONSIN.
THE GUARD TROOPS WILL HAVE SPENT
TEN DAYS TRAINING AT MADISON
COLLEGE AND WILL BE DEPLOYED
AROUND THE STATE.
>> THERE IS A TREMENDOUS NEED
FOR HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS AT
THIS POINT IN TIME.
WE SEE THAT OUR HOSPITALS ARE
FULL, OUR LONG-TERM CARE
FACILITIES ARE FULL.
WE HAVE JUST REACHED OUR
TWO-YEAR ANNIVERSARY WITH COVID.
AND OUR HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS
ARE BEYOND EXHAUSTED.
AND THEY DESPERATELY NEED OUR
HELP.
WHEN THEY ARE DEPLOYED ACROSS
WISCONSIN COMMUNITIES IN
GREATEST NEED, THEY WILL HAVE
THOSE SKILLS IN HAND THAT THEY
CAN THEN BE IMMEDIATELY
PROVIDING HANDS-ON CARE TO OUR
COMMUNITIES THAT ARE IN NEED.
>> I HAVE SOME FAMILY MEMBERS
THAT ARE IN NURSING AND WORK AT
HOSPITALS AND THEY ARE
STRUGGLING A LITTLE BIT, AT
LEAST FROM WHAT THEY'VE TOLD ME,
AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE
COOL TO GO HAVE AN IMPACT ON OUR
STATE AND THE PEOPLE.
>> OFFICIALS AT MADISON COLLEGE
SAY THERE COULD BE ANOTHER CLASS
OF 80 GUARD MEMBERS RECEIVING
TRAINING BY THE END OF JANUARY.
COVID-19 CASES PERSIST IN
WISCONSIN.
A NEW SEVEN-DAY AVERAGE OF
17,586 POSITIVE INFECTIONS WERE
REPORTED AND THE STATE
EPIDEMIOLOGIST SAYS WE HAVE NOT
HIT THE PEAK OF THE SURGE.
WILL CUSHMAN, AUTHOR OF OUR
ONLINE "COVID-19 CONDITIONS"
SERIES JOINS US NOW WITH MORE.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> HEY, FRED.
>> LAST WEEK WE LEARNED THAT A
DATA DUMP OF POSITIVE CASES
CONTRIBUTED TO THESE HUGE
NUMBERS AND EVEN LATER THIS WEEK
A DAILY COUNT WAS MORE THAN
15,000.
ARE WE KIND OF JUST IN THE REAL
NUMBER NOW OR WHAT'S GOING ON
WITH ALL THAT?
>> YEAH.
GREAT QUESTION.
AND WE ARE BACK TO KIND OF NEW
DAILY CASE NUMBERS THAT DO
REFLECT THE DAILY REALITY.
THE STATE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH
SERVICES DID, AS YOU SAY, KIND
OF DUMP SOME DATA AT THE END OF
LAST WEEK AND EARLY THIS WEEK
THAT RESULTED IN SOME REALLY
HIGH DAILY CASE COUNTS,
INCLUDING ON MONDAY.
THERE WERE OVER 35,000 NEW CASES
REPORTED ON JUST THAT DAY.
BUT THAT WAS A RESULT OF DHS
UPDATING ITS SYSTEM, AUTOMATING
PART OF ITS SYSTEM DUE TO
ACTUALLY A BACKLOG OF CASES THAT
HAD BEEN IN THE SYSTEM KIND OF
PILING UP FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS
JUST BECAUSE OF THE CRUSH OF THE
OMICRON SURGE.
BUT THAT WAS CLEARED EARLY THIS
WEEK, SO THE CASE NUMBERS ARE
KIND OF BACK TO REFLECTING DAILY
REALITY.
>> ALL RIGHT.
SO A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE ASKING
HAS WISCONSIN YET HIT THIS PEAK.
AND THE STATE HEALTH OFFICIALS
ARE SAYING WE HAVEN'T.
WHAT ELSE ARE THEY SAYING ABOUT
THAT?
>> YEAH.
THEY'RE SAYING THAT THE EVIDENCE
IS NOT THERE YET THAT WE HAVE
HIT OR ARE IMMINENTLY GOING TO
HIT THE OMICRON PEAK.
THEY NOTED THAT SOME PLACES
AROUND THE U.S. PROBABLY ARE A
LITTLE BIT BEYOND THE PEAK.
THOSE WOULD BE THE PLACES THAT
GOT HIT FIRST BY OMICRON, PLACES
LIKE NEW YORK CITY.
THEY SAID IN A BRIEFING
YESTERDAY, ON THURSDAY, THAT,
YEAH, WE'RE NOT QUITE THERE YET.
THE EVIDENCE ISN'T QUITE THERE
YET.
THEY ALSO REMINDED US THAT ONCE
WE DO HIT THAT PEAK, THERE WILL
BE JUST AS MANY INFECTIONS ON
THE DOWNSIDE OF THAT PEAK AS
THERE WERE LEADING UP TO IT, SO
WE WILL NOT BE OUT OF THE WOODS.
>> THE STATE IS PUTTING ON THE
PUSH TO PROTECT CHILDREN TO BOTH
KEEP THEM FROM GETTING SICK AND
KEEP THEM IN SCHOOL.
WHAT DO PEDIATRIC CASE COUNTS
AND HOSPITALIZATIONS LOOK LIKE?
>> CHILDREN HAVE ACCOUNTED FOR A
LARGE PART OF THE CASES DURING
THE OMICRON SURGE.
CASES HAVE ACTUALLY RISEN MOST
SHARPLY AMONG CHILDREN OF ALL
AGE GROUPS.
THERE HAVE BEEN ABOUT 50,000 NEW
CASES AMONG CHILDREN 18 AND
YOUNGER SINCE THE BEGINNING OF
THE YEAR.
SO THAT'S JUST A FEW WEEKS.
THAT'S REALLY A VERY HIGH NUMBER
OF CASES.
VERY FEW OF THOSE ACTUALLY
RESULT IN SYMPTOMS THAT ARE SO
SEVERE THAT CHILDREN ARE BEING
HOSPITALIZED AT HIGH RATES, BUT
THERE ARE CHILDREN BEING
HOSPITALIZED ALL AROUND THE
STATE, INCLUDING JUST THIS LAST
WEEK IN MILWAUKEE COUNTY ALONE
75 CHILDREN WERE HOSPITALIZED
WITH COVID.
>> AND YET AS WE'RE SUGGESTING,
IT'S STILL TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT
THOSE CASES ARE NOT NECESSARILY
AS SEVERE?
>> YES.
THAT IS TRUE.
AND I SHOULD ALSO ADD THAT IT'S
NOT TOTALLY CLEAR ALL THE TIME
WHETHER CHILDREN OR ANYONE FOR
THAT MATTER BASED ON THE DATA
THAT WE HAVE ARE HOSPITALIZED
BECAUSE OF THE SYMPTOMS THEY ARE
EXPERIENCING DUE TO COVID OR IF
THEY'RE HOSPITALIZED PERHAPS FOR
ANOTHER REASON AND ALSO OUR
TESTING POSITIVE FOR COVID WHILE
THEY'RE IN THE HOSPITAL ALTHOUGH
THERE ARE DEFINITELY A LOT OF
PEOPLE IN THE HOSPITAL RIGHT NOW
SPECIFICALLY FOR COVID.
<!32768> YEAH.
VERY SCARY.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR
REPORTING ON THIS, WILL CUSHMAN.
>> YOU'RE WELCOME, FRED.
>> FOR MORE COVERAGE ON THE
COVID CONDITION IN WISCONSIN AND
WILL'SWILL'S REPORTING, VISIT
pbswisconsin.org AND CLICK ON
THE NEWS PAGE.
WHICH PATIENTS ARE GETTING
PRIORITY TREATMENT FOR COVID-19?
THE UNVACCINATED OR THE FULLY
VAXXED, EVEN IF PATIENTS IN THAT
LATTER CATEGORY MIGHT BE AT HIGH
RISK?
WE ARE JOINED BY A MEDICAL
ETHICIST, KAROLA KREITMAIR,
ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF BIOETHICS
AT UW-MADISON.
THANKS FOR BEING HERE.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> ARE THERE PRIORITIES
HIERARCHIES FOR WHO GETS
TREATMENT EVEN ASIDE FROM COVID?
>> WELL, YEAH.
SURE.
AND IF YOU'RE IN THE ER AND
YOU'RE TAKING CARE OF SOMEONE
WITH A SCRAPED KNEE AND THEN
SUDDENLY A TRAUMA CASUALTY COMES
IN, IT MAKES NO SENSE TO
CONTINUE TAKING CARE OF A
SCRAPED KNEE WHEN SOMEONE IS IN
SORT OF LIFE-THREATENING
CONDITION.
OR WITH ORGAN ALLOCATIONS FOR
ORGAN TRANSPLANTATION, THERE ARE
PRIORITIES GIVEN TO THOSE WHO
ARE LIKELY TO DIE WITHOUT THE
ORGAN OVER THOSE WHO HAVE MORE
OF A CHANCE OF SURVIVING FOR
LONGER WITHOUT.
SO WE GENERALLY TEND TO
PRIORITIZE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE
THE GREATEST NEED EVEN OUTSIDE
OF COVID.
>> SO IN A PERFECT WORLD, ANYONE
WHO NEEDED IT WOULD GET THE
TREATMENT THEY NEED, LIKE AN ICU
BED.
BUT IN THE COVID-19 REALITY
RIGHT NOW, WHO IS GETTING ICU
CARE?
>> WELL, IN THE COVID-19
REALITY, THE FIRST THING THAT
HAS HAPPENED IS THAT ICU BEDS
ARE SORT OF -- THE PRESSURE ON
ICU BEDS IS REDUCED BY
CANCELLING OPERATIONS, NOT
ACCEPTING TRANSFERS IN, TREATING
PATIENTS ON THE FLOOR RATHER
THAN IN THE ICU.
AND SO THAT ALL COMES WITH
COSTS.
OBVIOUSLY WHEN AN OPERATION IS
CANCELLED, OVER TIME A CONDITION
THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN
LIFE-THREATENING COULD END UP
BEING LIFE-THREATENING.
SO THIS IS SORT OF THE FIRST
STAGE OF WHAT TO DO ABOUT ICU
BEDS IN THE COVID-19 WORLD.
AND THEN THE SECOND STAGE IS
REALLY WHEN THESE CRISIS CARES
ARE IMPLEMENTED.
THIS IS WHEN HOSPITALS IMPLEMENT
SPECIFIC POLICIES WHERE THEY
DECIDE HOW TO PRIORITIZE
PATIENTS FOR THINGS LIKE
VENTILATORS AND ICU BEDS.
I THINK EVERY BIOETHICIST IN THE
COUNTRY HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT
THESE ISSUES OVER THE LAST TWO
YEARS AND HAS HELPED TO COME UP
WITH A POLICY FOR A HOSPITAL.
AND THE TWO PRINCIPLES THAT
WE'VE REALLY FOUND ARE MOST
IMPORTANT HERE ARE SAVE THE MOST
LIVES, SO GENERATE THE MOST
BENEFIT FROM THE RESOURCES THAT
YOU HAVE, AND DON'T EXACERBATE
EXISTING SOCIAL INEQUALITIES.
>> SO AS TO COVID PATIENTS, ARE
THERE OR SHOULD THERE BE GIVEN
PRIORITY TO PATIENTS WHO "DID
THE RIGHT THING" AND GOT
VACCINATED AND BOOSTED?
>> NO, BECAUSE MEDICINE IS NOT
NOR SHOULD IT BE THE MORAL
ARBITER OF DESERVEDNESS.
IF SOMEONE COMES IN WITH A HEART
ATTACK BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T
LISTEN TO ADVICE AND CONTINUED
TO EAT CHEESE CHEESEBURGERS OR DIDN'T
RUN ON THE TREADMILL, WE DON'T
SAY, TOUGH, THAT WAS YOUR OWN
FAULT.
WE TREAT PEOPLE BASED ON WHAT
THEY NEED.
SAME WITH ADDICTION.
WE LEARN THAT ADDICTION IS
BETTER CONCEPTUALIZED AS A
DISEASE RATHER THAN PEOPLE
MAKING REALLY STUPID DECISIONS
FOR NO REASON.
SO IT'S THE SAME WITH
VACCINATION STATUS.
WE SHOULDN'T BE BLAMING PEOPLE
FOR THEIR LACK OF VACCINATION
STATUS OR THEIR LACK OF
VACCINATION.
IF WE WANT TO BLAME SOMEONE, WE
SHOULD BE BLAMING THOSE PEOPLE
WHO ARE SPREADING LIES AND
MISINFORMATION THAT IS CAUSING
PEOPLE TO THINK THAT THEY ARE
BETTER OFF IN THEY'RE
UNVACCINATED.
>> SO SIMILAR TO THAT, WHY WOULD
UNVACCINATED PATIENTS BE IN LINE
FOR NEW TREATMENTS, THE PILL
THAT'S JUST OUT, OVER VACCINATED
PATIENTS?
>> YEAH.
SO LIKE I SAID WITH THE
ALLOCATION OF CRITICAL CARE
RESOURCES, WE WANT TO GIVE THE
RESOURCES TO INDIVIDUALS WHERE
THEY CAN HAVE THE MOST BENEFIT.
AND IF SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET
VERY SICK FROM COVID, THEY'RE
LIKELY TO TAKE UP A LOT OF OUR
RESOURCES, MAYBE TAKE UP A ICU
BED AND THAT WOULD BE BAD FOR
EVERYONE.
SO PRIORITIZING UNVACCINATED
INDIVIDUALS IN SOME CASES MEANS
THAT THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST
LIKELY TO GET SICK, MOST LIKELY
TO TAKE UP RESOURCES DON'T END
UP TAKING THAT RESOURCE AND THEN
IT ENDS UP BEING BETTER FOR
EVERYONE.
SO IT MAKES SENSE FROM A
SOCIETAL LEVEL PERSPECTIVE.
>> THINGS ARE HAPPENING SO FAST
IN HEALTH CARE RIGHT NOW WITH
THIS PANDEMIC.
SO THESE KINDS OF TRIAGE
DECISIONS ARE BEING MADE ON THE
SPOT, I IMAGINE.
WOULD YOU SUGGEST CHANGING THAT?
>> WELL, IT'S HARD BECAUSE
TALKING ABOUT TRIAGE MAKES IT
SOUND LIKE THERE'S A POINT WHEN
WE DON'T DO TRIAGE AND THEN WE
STEP OVER INTO THE REALM OF
TRIAGE.
BUT TRIAGE OCCURS KIND OF ALL
THE TIME.
AND WHEN WE DON'T HAVE THESE
EXPLICIT POLICIES THAT GIVE
PROVIDERS THE GUIDELINES ON HOW
TO BE MAKING THESE DECISIONS AND
KIND OF TAKE SOME OF THESE
DECISIONS OUT OF THEIR HANDS,
WE'RE REALLY FORCING THE BEDSIDE
NURSES AND DOCTORS TO MAKE SOME
OF THESE DECISIONS AND THEY'RE
NOT IN THE BEST PLACE TO MAKE
THESE DECISIONS, NOR SHOULD
THEY.
THAT'S NOT PART OF WHAT IT MEANS
TO ACT AS A NURSE OR A DOCTOR.
SO I DO BELIEVE THAT IF THERE
WERE MORE LEADERSHIP FROM
CENTRAL PLACES, STATE OR
FEDERALLY, ON WHAT THE PROTOCOLS
SHOULD BE THAT SHOULD BE
IMPLEMENTED IN THESE SITUATIONS,
WE WOULD HAVE MORE ETHICAL
OUTCOMES.
>> ALL RIGHT.
VERY INTERESTING STUFF.
WE COULD SPEAK A LOT LONGER.
BUT, PROFESSOR, THANKS VERY
MUCH.
>> THANKS.
THANKS AGAIN.
>> AT THE CAPITOL, THE STATE
SUPREME COURT HEARD ARGUMENTS
THIS WEEK IN A SUIT TO DECIDE
THE NEXT VOTING MAPS FOR
WISCONSIN.
THE COURT PREVIOUSLY ANNOUNCED
IT WOULD TRY TO MAKE AS FEW
CHANGES AS POSSIBLE TO THE
CURRENT MAPS, WHICH SOME ARGUE
LOCK IN REPUBLICAN MAJORITIES IN
THE LEGISLATURE.
THE COURT MUST ALSO CONSIDER
CHANGES TO THE STATE'S MINORITY
COMMUNITIES.
UNDER THE FEDERAL VOTING RIGHTS
ACT, MINORITY COMMUNITIES CANNOT
BE GERRYMANDERED OUT OF
POLITICAL VOICE.
HERE'S JUSTICE PAT ROGGENSACK ON
THAT POINT.
>> I'M LOOKING AT WHAT'S
HAPPENED IN THE MILWAUKEE
COMMUNITY AND I GO BACK AND I
LOOK AT HOW AFRICAN-AMERICANS
HAVE FARED IN ELECTIONS THERE.
AND I HAVE SOME VERY SPECIFIC
QUESTIONS, PARTICULARLY, YOU
KNOW, THE FACT THAT LIEUTENANT
GOVERNOR MANDELA BARNES WAS
ELECTED TO BE THE CANDIDATE TO
RUN WITH THE GOVERNOR WITH 6
7.76 VOTE IN THE PRIMARY
DEFEATING A WHITE CANDIDATE.
SO TO ME THAT APPEARS IN A
STATEWIDE CONTEST YOU HAVE --
YOU HAVE AFRICAN-AMERICAN
CANDIDATES BEING SUPPORTED BY
WHITE VOTERS.
BUT THAT CERTAINLY DOESN'T SHOW
A BLACK VOTING, OKAY, BY WHITE
VOTERS TO KNOCK OUT AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN CANDIDATE.
>> THE REDISTRICTING PROCESS IN
WISCONSIN IS GOING ABOUT AS
EXPECTED, LANDING BEFORE THE
STATE SUPREME COURT.
WHAT MIGHT BE CONSIDERED
UNEXPECTED, INFIGHTING AMONG
LEGISLATIVE REPUBLICANS OVER
ALLEGATIONS OF FRAUD IN THE 2020
ELECTIONS.
INFIGHTING THAT CAUSED SPEAKER
ROBIN VOS TO STRIP A MEMBER OF
HIS CAUCUS OF HIS STAFF.
>> THERE ARE SOME WHO BELIEVE --
ONE WHO BELIEVES THAT WE SOMEHOW
HAVE THE RIGHT, EVEN THOUGH
EVERY LAWYER THAT WE HAVE WORKED
WITH IN WISCONSIN SAYS WE CANNOT
UNDO THE 2020 ELECTIONS, YOU
KNOW, REPRESENT RAN THUMB HAS
THAT BELIEF.
THAT'S HIS RIGHT.
>> ALL OF WHAT IS HAPPENING IN
THIS STATE WITH ELECTIONS IS
WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST CALLS
EXCEPTIONAL AND DANGEROUS.
UW-MADISON PROFESSOR BARRY
BURDEN IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE
ELECTIONS RESEARCH CENTER AND
THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> SPECIFY WHY YOU CALL HOW THE
LAST ELECTION IS BEING TREATED
RIGHT NOW IN WISCONSIN
EXCEPTIONAL AND DANGEROUS?
>> THE EXCEPTIONAL PART IS
PROBABLY MORE OBVIOUS.
WE'VE SEEN A SERIES OF THINGS
HAPPEN SINCE THE ELECTION WE'VE
NEVER SEEN BEFORE IN MODERN
HISTORY.
NOT ONLY DID WE HAVE THE NORMAL
AUDITS AND CANVASS THAT HAPPEN
AFTER THE ELECTION, BUT THERE
WAS A RECOUNT IN THE STATE'S TWO
BIGGEST COUNTIES, DANE AND
MILWAUKEE, AND THEN A SERIES OF
INVESTIGATIONS, AUDITS, HEARINGS
THAT WERE BASED NOT IN FACT AND
NOT DRAWING ON THE EXPERTISE OF
PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY RUN
ELECTIONS OR KNOW HOW THESE
THINGS WORK AND SEEM TO HAVE A
KIND OF OPEN-ENDED QUALITY TO
THEM, WITH NO CLEAR RESOLUTION
IN SIGHT.
ALL OF THESE EFFORTS,
PARTICULARLY THE GABLEMAN
INVESTIGATIONS, ARE NOT LIKELY
TO BUILD CONFIDENCE.
THEY'RE GOING TO FURTHER
UNDERMINE IT.
AND I SAY THAT'S DANGEROUS
BECAUSE SUPPORT FOR THE OUTCOME
OF ELECTIONS IS AN ESSENTIAL
PART OF A DEMOCRACY.
VOTERS HAVE TO ACCEPT THE
RESULTS AND MOVE ON AND TRY TO
WIN THE NEXT ELECTION.
INSTEAD, THESE EFFORTS I THINK
ARE KEEPING THOSE SUSPICIONS
ALIVE AND RELIT GAIFTING THE
2020 ELECTION.
>> THESE EFFORTS SEEM TO HAVE
FIT A FEVERED PITCH WITH
SUBPOENAS FLYING AND ON AND ON.
BUT DOES THE GABLEMAN
INVESTIGATION STAND OUT EVEN
AMONG OTHER STATES' EFFORTS IN
THIS WAY?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK THE ONLY PARALLEL WOULD
BE THE CYBER NINJAS
INVESTIGATION THAT TOOK PLACE IN
ARIZONA FUNDED MOSTLY BY PRIVATE
RATHER THAN STATE DOLLARS THE
WAY THE GABLEMAN INVESTIGATION
S. BUT BOTH OF THEM WERE RUN BY
PEOPLE WITH NO EXPERTISE IN THE
FIELD, STAFFED MOSTLY BY EITHER
TRUMP SUPPORTERS, TRUMP
LOYALISTS OR PEOPLE WHO WERE
ELECTION SKEPTICS OR DENIERS AND
HAVE NO LIMITATION OF SCOPE, NO
CLEAR QUESTIONS DEFINED.
BOTH THE CYBER NINJAINGS AND
GABLEMAN HAVE HOCKED FROM ONE TO
ANOTHER.
SOMETIMES IT'S PRIVATE
CONTRACTS.
SOMETIMES IT'S DROP BOXES.
SO IT'S UNCLEAR HOW A PROJECT
LIKE THAT EVER REACHES SOMETHING
CONVINCING AT THE END OF THE
WORK.
>> SO THE SLATE OF REPUBLICAN
ELECTORS IN WISCONSIN CALLED
FRAUDULENT ELECTORS WHO SENT
THEIR VOTES FOR TRUMP TO
WASHINGTON ARE DESCRIBED AS PART
OF A NATIONAL COORDINATED
CAMPAIGN THAT THE JANUARY 6
COMMITTEE IS NOW INVESTIGATING.
WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THE TEN
REPUBLICAN FALSE ELECTORS IN
THIS STATE?
>> IT'S BIZARRE.
YOU KNOW, THOSE FAKE ELECTORS
SIGNED THE CERTIFICATES AFTER
ALL OF THE LEGAL CHALLENGES HAD
BEEN CONCLUDED.
IT WAS NOT AS THOUGH THERE WAS
STILL A QUESTION ABOUT WHO HAD
WON THE STATES AND THE COURTS
WERE WORKING THEIR WAY THROUGH
THE SYSTEM.
IT WAS TIME FOR THE ELECTORS TO
VOTE IN THE STATE CAPITOL MORE
THAN A MONTH SINCE ELECTION DAY
AND A FINAL DECISION FROM THE
SUPREME COURT HAD BEEN RENDERED
A COUPLE HOURS BEFORE THEY MET
AT THE STATE CAPITOL.
IT WASN'T BASED ON FACTS ON THE
GROUND IN WISCONSIN, A SPECIFIC
KNOWLEDGE OF THINGS THAT HAD
GONE WRONG HERE BECAUSE IT WAS
THE SAME EFFORT IN ARIZONA AND
OTHER COMPETITIVE BATTLEGROUND
STATES.
IT WAS A NATIONAL CAMPAIGN AS
WE'RE LEARNING LED BY FOLKS
INSIDE THE TRUMP OPERATION TO
TRY TO SET THE STAGE FOR
OVERTURNING THE ELECTION ON
JANUARY 6.
>> IN FACT, ONE OF THOSE
REPUBLICAN ELECTORS WHO SIGNED
THAT PAPERWORK THAT WAS SENT
ALONG TO WASHINGTON IS ACTUALLY
A COMMISSIONER ON THE WISCONSIN
ELECTIONS COMMISSION.
WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?
>> IT SEEMS UNCONSCIONABLE TO ME
THAT SOMEONE WHO IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR OVERSEEING ELECTIONS AT THE
STATEWIDE LEVEL IS ALSO SO
CLOSELY ATTACHED TO ONE OF THE
NATIONAL CAMPAIGNS AND SO
COMMITTED TO IT THAT THE PERSON
WOULD SIGN A FAKE ELECTORAL
CERTIFICATE.
I DON'T KNOW HOW THAT'S
POSSIBLE.
IT'S CERTAINLY NOT ETHICAL AND
NOT HELPFUL.
>> YOU SAY THAT YOU WOULD
WELCOME AN ACTUAL REVIEW OF THE
2020 PANDEMIC ELECTION, BUT YOU
CALL THIS ONE SECRETIVE,
BUMBLING AND LACKING
CREDIBILITY.
BUT WHAT WOULD YOU WANT TO LEARN
IN AN ACTUAL REVIEW?
>> I THINK THERE ARE GOOD
QUESTIONS TO BE RAISED ABOUT
AREAS OF STATE LAW THAT SHOULD
BE CLARIFIED AFTER THE ELECTION,
PARTICULARLY AROUND ABSENTEE
VOTING WITH SO MANY PEOPLE
VOTING BY MAIL OR EARLY FOR THE
FIRST TIME.
WHAT SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT
NURSING HOMES AND DROP BOXES AND
ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT BECAME A
PART OF THE ELECTION
INFRASTRUCTURE.
SOME OF THOSE ARE NOT WELL
SPECIFIED IN THE LAW BECAUSE
THEY WEREN'T ANTICIPATED.
YOU CAN IMAGINE STATE
LEGISLATORS WERE NOT
ANTICIPATING A PUBLIC HEALTH
CRISIS.
SO I THINK SOME SERIOUS
CONSIDERATION FOR HOW TO TWEAK
THE LAWS IS WARRANTED.
>> DOES IT SUGGEST IN TWEAKING
THE LAWS THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING
GOING ON THAT WAS WRONG OR
FRAUDULENT?
>> I THINK THE COURTS HAVE
ALREADY CONCLUDED THAT THERE WAS
NOTHING WRONG OR FRAUDULENT THAT
HAD GONE ON.
THE LEGISLATIVE AUDIT BUREAU'S
REPORT INDICATED THAT THERE WERE
AREAS OF STATE LAW THAT SHOULD
BE CLARIFIED.
AND THERE WERE SOME PRACTICES
THAT WERE A LITTLE SLOPPY OR
UNEVEN ACROSS THE STATE BUT
THAT'S TRUE OF EVERY ELECTION.
IT'S A HUMAN PROCESS, IT'S AN
IMPERFECT ONE AND TRYING TO
PERFECT IT OUGHT TO BE THE JOB
OF THE STATE LEGISLATURE.
>> BARRY BURDEN, THANKS VERY
MUCH FOR JOINING US WITH YOUR
PERSPECTIVE ON THIS.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> THAT IS OUR PROGRAM FOR
TONIGHT.
I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
>> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
WISCONSIN.