IF I DO THIS BECAUSE MY SCREEN
WAS VERY BRIGHT, AND NOW --
OKAY, GOOD, GOOD.
OKAY.
>> OKAY.
I THINK WE ARE ALL SET.
>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
PBS WISCONSIN.
TODAY IS JANUARY 19.
WISCONSIN'S DRINKING REPUTATION
PROCEEDED THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC,
BUT THE STRESS OF THE PAST TWO
YEARS HAS PROPELLED CONSUMPTION
AND ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS HAVE
INCREASED BY 25%.
JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT HOW
THESE NUMBERS HAVE GOTTEN TO
WHERE THEY ARE ARE ARI BROWN AND
BRIEN GLEESON, AN ADDICTION
COUNSELOR OFMAYO CLINIC FROM
O'CLAIRE, AND THANK YOU, BOTH,
FOR THIS CONVERSATION.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU, GOOD TO BE HERE.
>> ARI, STARTING WITH YOU, YOUR
LATEST REPORT DUG INTO THE
NUMBERS WHICH FOUND NOT ONLY
HAVE ALCOHOL-RELATED DEATHS
INCREASED BY 25% IN WISCONSIN,
BUT WISCONSIN IS ALSO 25% HIGHER
THAN THE RATE NATIONWIDE.
WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO LOOK INTO
THIS RESEARCH AND FIND THOSE
NUMBERS?
>> YEAH.
SO THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
THIS RESEARCH IS SOMETHING WE'VE
BEEN PURSUING IN DIFFERENT FORMS
FOR QUITE A WHILE.
BACK IN 2019, WE LOOKED AT
SIMILAR DATA SET THAT LOOKED AT
LIFE EXPECTANCY, AND WE FOUND
SOME CONCERNING TRENDS AROUND
LIFE EXPECTANCY IN WISCONSIN
DRIVEN THINGS BY LIKE
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS, AND MID
LAST YEAR, WE ACTUALLY LOOKED AT
ALCOHOL TAX REVENUES, WHICH IS
THE BEST PROXY, WE AS POLICY
RESEARCHERS, HAVE FOR WHAT
OVERALL ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION
LOOKS LIKE IN THE STATE OF
WISCONSIN, AND WE FOUND IN 2020
THAT ALCOHOL TAX REVENUE IN
WISCONSIN INCREASED QUITE A BIT,
IN A WAY HAD NOT BEEN SEEN FOR
MULTIPLE DECADES SINCE THERE
HAVE BEEN MAJOR CHANGES TO
TAXATION RULES AROUND ALCOHOL IN
WISCONSIN.
SO THAT, I THINK, REALLY IS WHAT
SPURRED THIS RESEARCH.
WE WERE ABLE TO USE A DATA SET
THAT'S PUBLISHED BY THE CENTERS
FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND
PREVENTION THAT SINGLED OUT
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS SO THESE
ARE DEATHS THAT ARE DIRECTLY
CAUSED BY ALCOHOL.
THINGS LIKE ALCOHOLIC LIVER
DISEASE, MENTAL AND BEHAVIOR
DISORDERS DUE TO ALCOHOL USE,
AND IT EXCLUDES THINGS THAT
WOULD RESULT FROM THE
CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL, BUT NOT
BE DIRECTLY CAUSED BY IT.
THINGS LIKE CAR ACCIDENTS,
VIOLENCE CAUSED BY OR, YOU KNOW,
IN APPROXIMATE DISTANCE TO THE
CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL, SO JUST
THE DEATHS THAT ARE REALLY
DIRECT RESULT OF ALCOHOL, BUT,
YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU KNOW,
FOUND ALARMING TRENDS HERE AND
THINGS WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT
FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS,
EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC
STARTED.
>> AND, BRIEN, HAVE YOU BEEN
SEEING THIS IN YOUR DAY-TO-DAY
WORK WITH AS THE PANDEMIC HAS
PROGRESSED?
>> WELL, I'VE BEEN DOING THIS
FOR A WHILE, AND I'VE SEEN IT
FOR A LONG TIME, BUT I WOULD
SAY, YES, DURING THE PANDEMIC,
IT'S GOTTEN WORSE.
I ALSO ASKED BEFORE THIS
INTERVIEW A COUPLE COLLEAGUES OF
MINE WHO WORK IN OTHER PLACES,
AND THEY'VE SEEN THE SAME TREND,
THAT PARTICULAR FORM OF HARM
CAUSED IN RELATIONSHIP WITH
ALCOHOL WHERE, YOU KNOW, ALCOHOL
ESSENTIALLY AS A POISON OF SORTS
IS HURTING A PERSON'S BODY, AND
THAT THAT LEADS TO ILLNESS AND
DEATH, THAT, YES, THAT IS
SOMETHING WE'VE SEEN ON THE RISE
SINCE THE BEGINNING OF COVID.
>> AND, BRIEN, HAVE YOU, I
GUESS, SEEN HOW THIS HAS PLAYED
OUT WITH CLIENTS, AND HAS IT
MADE YOU BUSIER?
HAVE YOU BASICALLY UNDERSTOOD
WHAT PEOPLE ARE GOING THROUGH AS
THESE LAST TWO YEARS HAVE
PROGRESSED?
>> I WOULD SAY YES.
IT'S NOT THAT IT'S SOMETHING NEW
AS MUCH AS IT IS JUST SOMETHING
THAT'S GOTTEN WORSE BECAUSE OF
THE, YOU KNOW, SOCIALLY WHAT'S
OCCURRED.
YOU KNOW, GENERALLY, AS A
PERSON'S ALCOHOLISM PROGRESSES,
THEIR -- THEY'RE LIKELY TO
BECOME MORE ISOLATED, AND
THERE'S ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO
KIND OF TRY TO FUNCTION AS BEST
THEY CAN USING SOCIAL CONTACTS
AS A WAY TO KEEP FROM,
ESSENTIALLY, DRINKING SO MUCH,
AND IN A SENSE CONTROLLING THEIR
OWN DRINKING BY MAKING SURE THEY
HAVE REGULAR SOCIAL CONTACT,
WHETHER IT IS WITH FAMILY OR
FRIENDS OR, OF COURSE, ON THE
JOB.
DURING COVID, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
ISOLATED, AND SO IT IS NOT
SURPRISING AT ALL TO ME THAT WE
HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK, A
SIGNIFICANT RISE IN THE NUMBER
OF PEOPLE DYING ESSENTIALLY FROM
THE EFFECTS OF ALCOHOL.
>> ARI, DO WE KNOW WHO THIS IS
HAPPENING TO MOST ACUTELY?
>> YEAH.
SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS WE
WERE REALLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
WAS, YOU KNOW, IS THIS SOMETHING
THAT'S HAPPENING ACROSS ALL
DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, OR IS
THIS REALLY CONTAINED TO
SPECIFIC GROUPS?
WHAT WE FOUND WAS THAT THE RATE
OF ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS AMONG
BASICALLY ALL GROUP, AGE, RACE,
ETHNICITY, GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION,
ALL GROUPS WERE INCREASING KIND
OF OVER THE SPAN OF NOT JUST
DURING THE PANDEMIC, BUT THE
ENTIRE 21st CENTURY.
WHAT WE'VE FOUND IN TERMS OF THE
GROUPS THAT WERE REALLY DRIVING
THE INCREASE, BOTH IN 2020 AND
KIND OF THE LAST DECADE
SPECIFICALLY WERE THOSE BETWEEN
THE AGES OF 45 TO 84, SO KIND OF
OUR MIDDLE-AGED AND OLDER
POPULATION IN WISCONSIN, AN THEN
WHAT WE FOUND IN THE SUPPORT
THAT WAS ALARMING WAS, YOU KNOW,
FOR THE MOST PART, THE DEATH
RATE IN RACIAL AND ETHNIC GROUPS
IN WISCONSIN TRACKS CLOSELY TO
THAT AS OF THE U.S. RATE, SO,
FOR EXAMPLE, DEATH RATE FOR
WHITE WISCONSINITES IS SIMILAR
TO THE DEATH RATE OF WHITE
AMERICANS.
IN 2012, THE DEATH RATE FOR
BLACK WISCONSINITES INCREASED,
AND DIVERGING QUITE HEAVILY FROM
THE DEATH RATES FOR BLACK
AMERICANS.
SO, FOR MOST OF THE 21st
CENTURY, THE DEATH RATE FOR
BLACK AMERICANS HAS BEEN WELL
BELOW THAT.
FOR WHITE AMERICANS, IN
WISCONSIN, THAT WAS MOSTLY TRUE
AS WELL, THEY KIND OF -- I
BELIEVE, 2005 WAS THE LAST YEAR
THAT BLACK WISCONSINITES WERE
ABOVE WHITE WISCONSINITES FOR
THE DEATH RATE, BUT THAT HAS
CONTINUED FOR AMERICA GENERALLY,
BUT NOT FOR WISCONSIN.
IN 2019, THE BLACK DEATH RATE
ROSE THAT ABOVE THE WHITE DEATH
RATE.
WE THOUGHT THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO
HIGHLIGHT BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY
ONE OF THE TRENDS YOU START TO
SEE A DIVERGENCE IN OVERALL
TRENDS AND SAME DIVERGENCE IN
THE MIDDLE AGE AND OLDER IN
WISCONSINITES WHERE THEIR RATE
IN 2011, 2012 STARTS TO INCREASE
ABOVE THE RATE OF ALL AMERICANS
OF SIMILAR GROUPS.
>> AND IT KIND OF MAKES SENSE
THAT AN OLDER GROUP IS GOING TO
HAVE MORE HEALTH RELATED ISSUES,
EITHER FROM BEING OLDER OR FROM
DRINKING, AND SO IT IS NOT
NECESSARILY YOUNGER PEOPLE WE
ARE SEEING FROM ALCOHOL-INDUCED
DEATHS, BUT, BRIEN, ARE WE
SEEING YOUNGER AND YOUNGER
ALCOHOL ABUSE PROBLEMS IN
PEOPLE?
IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE
SEEING IN YOUR WORK?
>> IT'S INTERESTING.
IT'S KIND OF A LITTLE BIT OF A
MIXED PICTURE THERE I WOULD SAY.
OVERALL, I WOULD SAY, YES, YOU
KNOW, THERE'S A CULTURE OF
DRINKING IN WISCONSIN, AND NOT
JUST DRINKING, BUT ONE OF THE
MAIN THINGS THAT SHOWS UP FROM
THE STATISTICS THAT I LOOKED AT
IS THAT IT IS NOT SO MUCH THAT
YOUNGER -- THAT PEOPLE ARE
DRINKING YOUNGER THAN THEY USED
TO OR THAT THEY ARE MORE -- THAT
MORE OF THEM ARE DRINKING, YOU
KNOW, PER CAPITA OR WHATEVER,
BUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING MORE IS
DRINKING MORE HEAVILY WHEN THEY
DRINK.
THAT'S BEEN PRETTY CLEAR, I
THINK, FROM THE RESEARCH I'VE
SEEN.
WHAT THEY ARE DOING MORE IS
BINGE DRINKING, AND SO THAT'S
THE TYPE OF DRINKING THAT'S
LIABLE TO BRING ABOUT -- YOU
KNOW, FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE, THE
MEDICAL PROBLEM IS MORE LIKELY
TO BE ALONG THE LINES OF ALCOHOL
POISONING.
WHERE A PERSON DRINKS SO MUCH SO
QUICKLY THAT THEY SIMPLY
ANESTHETIZE THEIR CENTRAL
NERVOUS SYSTEM TO THE POINT THEY
DIE.
IT IS NOT REAL COMMON.
IT IS NOT REAL FREQUENT.
IT HAPPENS MORE COMMONLY AMONG
YOUNG PEOPLE WHERE IT'S A
CULTURE WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE DRINK
MORE WHEN THEY DRINK.
IT'S NOT THAT MORE OF THEM ARE
NECESSARILY DRINKING OR THAT
THEY ARE DRINKING MORE OFTEN,
BUT WHEN THEY DRINK, THEY DRINK
MORE, AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT BE
AN EVEN GREATER -- AND I DON'T
HAVE THE FIGURES IN FRONT OF
ME -- BUT OFF THE TOP OF MY
HEAD, I KNOW THAT'S BEEN
ACTUALLY THROUGH THE PAST FEW
DECADES HAPPENING MORE OFTEN
WITH YOUNG WOMEN THAN IT USED
TO.
YOUNG WOMEN, IN PARTICULAR,
DRINKING MORE WHEN THEY DRINK
THAN YOUNG WOMEN IN GENERATIONS
PREVIOUS.
NOW, I WILL SAY THIS, THOUGH, TO
KIND OF COUNTER IT, I THINK THAT
THERE IS LESS -- ESPECIALLY FOR
UNDERAGE DRINKERS -- I THINK
THERE'S LESS TOLERANCE OR
EXPECTATION IN OUR CULTURE TODAY
FOR THAT, NOT A HUGE AMOUNT.
I MEAN, THERE'S STILL PLENTY OF
UNDERAGE PEOPLE DRINKING,
ESPECIALLY IN WISCONSIN.
IT'S BEEN SAID IN WISCONSIN WE
START THEM OUT YOUNG, AND WE DO.
WE TEND TO.
IT'S KIND OF A KNOWN THING IF
YOU GROW UP IN WISCONSIN, YOU'RE
LIKELY TO BE DRINKING BEFORE YOU
ARE OF LEGAL AGE, BUT I THINK
THERE'S BEEN A TREND OF LESS
TOLERANCE FOR THAT IN THE PAST
FEW YEARS.
I THINK THAT, FRANKLY, A LOT OF
THAT IS PROBABLY DUE TO
LIABILITY.
YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST, IT WAS
NOT UNUSUAL THAT PARENTS WOULD
SPONSOR A DRINKING PARTY FOR THE
HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL TEAM.
EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE ALL
UNDERAGE, YOU KNOW, WE'LL HAVE
THEM DRINK AT HOME.
IT'S SAFE THERE.
THEY WILL BE DRINKING ANYWAY.
AT LEAST THEY ARE DRINKING WHERE
WE WON'T LET THEM DRINK AND
DRIVE, AND SO THERE WAS SOME
THOUGHT ABOUT THAT, BUT, YOU
KNOW, THERE'S BEEN -- I'VE EVEN
SEEN ROAD SIGNS OR
ADVERTISEMENTS ON THE ROADS THAT
SAY, YOU KNOW, PARENTS WHO
SPONSOR DRINKING AREN'T LIABLE
FOR WHAT HAPPENS.
I THINK I'VE SEEN SOME CHANGE,
ALTHOUGH, AGAIN, NOT DRAMATIC,
BUT SOME CHANGE IN THE TOLERANCE
FOR UNDERAGE DRINKING, BUT
OVERALL, YEAH, THE OVERALL TREND
HAS GOTTEN WORSE FOR ALL AGES,
AND AS YOU SAID, ESPECIALLY
OLDER PEOPLE.
>> SO A LOT OF FACTORS THAT ARE
GOING INTO CULTURAL SHIFTS, AND
I BELIEVE, ARI, IN YOUR REPORT,
SPECIFICALLY, THAT
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS WERE
NOT -- DID NOT INCLUDE YOUNG
PEOPLE WHO HAD GIVEN THEMSELVES
ALCOHOL POISONING, BUT CAN YOU
TALK ABOUT WHAT ARE THE
CONSEQUENCES OF THE HEALTH AND
ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THIS
LARGE SCALE RISE IN SEVERE
DRINKING THAT YOU LAID OUT IN
THIS REPORT?
>> YEAH.
SO, JUST TO RESPOND TO THE FIRST
PART, AS, YOU KNOW, OUR OTHER
GUEST MENTIONED, WE DID -- THOSE
ARE ALCOHOL POISONING IS ONE OF
THE THINGS THAT'S INCLUDED, BUT
THE NUMBERS ARE PRETTY SMALL IN
TERMS OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY
DRINKING THEMSELVES TO DEATH
LIKE IN AN ACUTE WAY RATHER THAN
IN A CHRONIC WAY.
I BELIEVE IT WAS THE THIRD
LEADING CAUSE AMONG THE
ALCOHOL-INDUCED CAUSES, BUT A
DISTANT THIRD WHERE THE FIRST
TWO BEING ALCOHOLIC LIVER
DISEASE AND THEN MENTAL AND
BEHAVIOR DISORDERS DUE TO
ALCOHOL USE BEING AROUND 90% OF
ALL ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS, BOTH
IN WISCONSIN AND NATIONWIDE.
TO RESPOND TO THE SECOND PART OF
THAT, YEAH, IT IS SUCH A GOOD
QUESTION, AND IT'S REALLY
SOMETHING THAT I THINK
POLICYMAKERS SHOULD BE THINKING
ABOUT IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW,
WHAT DOES THIS RISE IN
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS MEAN FOR
THE HEALTH OF WISCONSINITES AND
FOR THE HEALTH OF, YOU KNOW, THE
ECONOMY IN WISCONSIN, AND I
THINK ONE OF THE THING WE WERE
THINKING ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE
REPORT WAS, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A
BIG ECONOMY FOR PURCHASING
ALCOHOL IN WISCONSIN.
YOU KNOW, WISCONSIN DOES -- IS
KIND OF ONE OF THESE STATES
THAT'S THOUGHT OF AS HAVING A
PRETTY STRONG DRINKING CULTURE.
THERE'S BREWERIES ALL AROUND THE
STATE.
WHAT WE FOUND OUT IN THE REPORT,
AND THIS WAS NOT JUST WISCONSIN
SPECIFIC.
IT HAPPENED IN OTHER PLACES, BUT
IT DID HAPPEN ALSO IN WISCONSIN,
WAS THAT THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, A
MOTION FROM THE STATE TO ALLOW
FOR WHAT WAS TERMED TO-GO
COCKTAILS FROM, YOU KNOW, BARS
AND RESTAURANTS IN THE BEGINNING
OF THE PANDEMIC, AND AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC, THE
CONCERN, I THINK, RIGHTFULLY SO,
WAS MAKING SURE THAT SMALL
BUSINESSES COULD, YOU KNOW,
CONTINUE TO FUNCTION, CONTINUE
TO, YOU KNOW, DO THEIR BUSINESS,
AND NOT, HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, GO
AWAY AS A RESULT OF THE
PANDEMIC, AND FOR, YOU KNOW, A
LOT OF THINGS, THAT WAS A GOOD
MOTION, AND IT HELPED A LOT, BUT
POTENTIALLY ONE OF THE SIDE
EFFECTS THAT YOU HAVE IS THE
OVERALL INCREASE IN THE
ACCESSIBILITY OF ALCOHOL.
THIS WAS JUST AN ANOTHER
EXAMPLE.
GO BACK THE LAST COUPLE DECADES
AND FIND LITTLE MOTIONS HERE AND
THERE THAT HAVE KIND OF SERVED
TO INCREASE THE ACCESSIBILITY
AND AVAILABILITY OF ALCOHOL, SO
IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMIC
PICTURE, I THINK THAT'S ONE WITH
OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS TO THINK
ABOUT IS, YOU KNOW, IT IS AN
IMPORTANT ECONOMIC INDUSTRY IN
THE STATE, BUT THERE ARE ALSO
THESE POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS.
WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH, I THINK
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE
FOCUSED ON A LOT IN THE
PANDEMIC, AGAIN, RIGHTFULLY SO,
WAS WE ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON
GETTING COVID UNDER CONTROL,
AND, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S BEEN A
MAJOR FACTOR IN ALL OF OUR LIVES
FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, BUT ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE KIND OF
BEEN THINKING ABOUT AS POLICY
RESEARCHERS IS WHAT IS ALL OF
THESE KIND OF SIDE EFFECTS OF
THE PANDEMIC ON OTHER AREAS OF
PUBLIC POLICY, AND ALCOHOL IS
ONE OF THEM, ESPECIALLY IN OUR
STATE.
YOU KNOW, THE INCREASE THAT WE
SAW, THE 25% INCREASE, ABOUT 25%
FROM 2019 TO 2020 WAS BY FAR THE
LARGEST ONE-YEAR JUMP IN
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS FROM --
FOR ANY YEAR OVER THE 21st
CENTURY, AND, YOU KNOW, THE
DOCTOR MENTIONED SOCIAL
ISOLATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT,
AND THAT'S ONE WITH OF THE
THINGS WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM
OTHER EXPERTS ON THIS AS WELL
THAT THAT PLAYED A REALLY BIG
FACTOR, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I
THINK THAT THOSE ARE KIND OF THE
BIG THINGS TO FOCUS ON WHEN IT
COMES TO THE HEALTH OF WEES AND
OVERALL WISCONSIN ECONOMY.
>> IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, WHEN
THE PANDEMIC FIRST HIT, KIND OF
MARCH 2020, MANY BUSINESSES WERE
SHUT DOWN, INCLUDING RESTAURANTS
AND BARS, BUT GROCERY STORES AND
LIQUOR STORES WERE CONSIDERED
ESSENTIAL, AND LIQUOR STORES
WERE KEPT OPEN.
BRIEN, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, IN
WISCONSIN, AS WE ALREADY SAID,
BINGE LEVEL DRINKING LEVELS WERE
ALREADY HIGH BEFORE THE
PANDEMIC.
IN PLACES IN WISCONSIN WERE
RANKED TOP DRINKING CITIES
NATIONALLY, SO WERE PEOPLE
ALREADY ON THE EDGE OR
EXPERIENCING KIND OF A FULL
BLOWN ADDICTION, BUT IT JUST
WASN'T BEING TALKED ABOUT?
>> SURE.
YEAH.
I WOULD SAY SO.
YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT TENDS
TO GET THE HEADLINES AND GET
NOTICED ARE ABUSE OF OTHER DRUGS
BECAUSE IT'S MORE DRAMATIC AND
IMMEDIATE.
ONE OF THE REAL -- BOY, I DON'T
KNOW WHAT TO CALL IT -- DANGERS,
I GUESS YOU WOULD SAY OR ONE OF
THE THINGS IN MY JOB I SEE VERY
OFTEN IS THE REAL HARMFUL EFFECT
OF ALCOHOL.
QUITE OFTEN, IT IS THE SUBTLETY.
IT SEEPS IN GRADUALLY.
SO WE WILL TEND NOT TO NOTICE
THE EFFECT BECAUSE THE EFFECT
DOES NOT COME ON IN RAPID ONSET
LIKE IT MIGHT WITH A DRUG LIKE
METHAMPHETAMINE.
GENERALLY, IF SOMEONE IS, IF YOU
WILL, DRINKING THEMSELVES TO
DEATH, IT IS A SLOW DEATH.
IT IS A VERY GRADUAL THING, AND
THAT TREND IS SOMETHING THAT'S
BEEN A PART OF THE CULTURE FOR A
LONG TIME.
IT'S -- YOU KNOW, TO CALL IT
"SUICIDE" IS MAYBE NOT QUITE TO
UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE I DON'T
THINK MOST PEOPLE THAT DRINK
THEMSELVES TO DEATH ARE DOING SO
BECAUSE THEY WANT TO DIE, BUT
RATHER THE -- YOU KNOW, AS YOU
WATCH IT PROGRESS, IT IS SO
GRADUAL THAT IT IS MORE SUBTLE,
AND IT IS GOING TO BE BELOW THE
RADAR, AS YOU ARE SUGGESTING,
AND PEOPLE FIND A WAY TO HIDE IT
IN A MILLION OF WAYS THAT WE
LOST IN THE PANDEMIC, AND SO IT
IS MAKING SENSE IT INCREASED,
BUT, YES, IT'S DEFINITELY ALWAYS
BEEN THERE, AND, YOU KNOW, AS
THE ILLNESS PROGRESSES, I DON'T
THINK THAT HAVE MANY ALCOHOL --
THAT VERY MANY ALCOHOLICS DECIDE
THAT, OH, YOU KNOW, I JUST
DECIDE I WANT TO DIE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S SUICIDE.
IT'S BEEN CALLED "SLOW SUICIDE,"
BY SELF-POISONING, BUT I DON'T
THINK IT IS SO MUCH A MATTER OF
SOMEBODY WILLINGLY OF THEIR OWN
DECIDING I DON'T WANT TO LIVE
ANYMORE AS MUCH AS THEY
RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS HARMING
THEM, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT IT
WILL END WITH THEIR DEATH, BUT
AS THE DISEASE PROGRESSES, THAT
DOESN'T BOTHER THEM AS MUCH AS
NOT DRINKING, AS MUCH AS THE
IDEA STOPPING DRINKING.
IT IS MORE TROUBLING TO THEM
THAN KNOWING THAT EVENTUALLY
THIS IS GOING TO TAKE MY LIFE.
SO THAT'S WHAT I'VE SEEN FOR
YEARS IN WORKING IN THIS FIELD,
AND THAT HAS NOT REALLY CHANGED
WITH THE PANDEMIC.
THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE.
>> AND KIND OF THAT GRADUAL
PROGRESSION, AS YOU ARE
DESCRIBING, SOUNDS LIKE THE FROG
IN BOILING WATER.
YOU DON'T NOTICE IT AT FIRST,
AND BY THE TIME IT GETS REALLY
BAD, IT'S ALMOST KIND OF TOO
LATE TO STOP IT, AND OFTEN
DRINKING IS SEEN AS A GOOD
THING, A CELEBRATION, A POSITIVE
THING TO KIND OF RELAX AND LET
LOOSE, BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS
STAY THAT WAY FOR FOLKS.
ARI, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, SO WHY
HAS WISCONSIN FAILED IN THE PAST
TO PASS LEGISLATION THAT COULD
ADDRESS THIS, EVEN FOR POLICIES
LIKE MORE SEVERE PUNISHMENT FOR
DRUNK DRIVING OFFENSES?
IS WISCONSIN'S DRINKING CULTURE
DIRECTLY IMPACTING OUR POLICY
DECISIONS?
>> YEAH.
THIS IS SUCH A GREAT QUESTION,
AND I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT
WE WERE, YOU KNOW, INTERESTED IN
PURSUING AS WELL.
ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE
KIND OF TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE
BIT WITH THIS REPORT
SPECIFICALLY IS, YOU KNOW,
ALCOHOL REALLY SEEMS TO BE WHAT
WE REFER TO AS A POLICY BLIND
SPOT IN WISCONSIN.
I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT
PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY AWARE OF,
YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THINGS LIKE
THE LISTS OF, LIKE, THE TOP 40
DRINKING CITIES OR THE TOP 10
DRINKING COUNTIES, AND USUALLY A
LOT OF THEM ARE IN WISCONSIN,
AND SO I THINK IT IS SOMETHING
PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF, BUT, YOU
KNOW, IT CAN BE HARD SOMETIMES
TO GET A LOT OF ENERGY BEHIND
CERTAIN LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS OR
TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, EXACTLY
WHAT SORT OF POLICY SOLUTIONS,
YOU KNOW, CAN BE PURSUED IN
ORDER TO CUT DOWN ON THIS AS AN
ISSUE.
I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO
NOTE THAT IF YOU GO BACK TO
AROUND 2000, THE RATE OF DEATH
FROM ALCOHOL-INDUCED CAUSES IN
WISCONSIN WAS BASICALLY EXACTLY
AT THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.
WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING BEFORE
1999, ONLY SINCE THEN, BUT WHAT
WE HAVE SEEN A THE RATE OF
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS IN
WISCONSIN TRACKED VERY CLOSELY
TO THAT AS WAS NATIONAL RATE
UNTIL ABOUT 2010, 2011 OR SO
WHERE IT WENT IN THE WRONG
DIRECTION.
ANOTHER THING TO POTENTIALLY
POINT TO HERE IS THIS REAL
DIVERGENCE IN THE 25% GAP NOW
BETWEEN 2020, THE RATE OF
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS IN
WISCONSIN AND RATE OF
ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS IN THE
UNITED STATES IN GENERAL IS
REALLY KIND OF A NEWER
PHENOMENA.
THE OTHER THING I'LL POINT TO
HERE THAT HAS KIND OF BEEN
POINTED OUT TO US IN DOING THIS
RESEARCH, IS THAT A LOT OF
ALCOHOL POLICY DECISIONS ARE
MADE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL IN
WISCONSIN.
FOR EXAMPLE, YOU HAVE ITEMS LIKE
LIQUOR LICENSES.
THOSE ARE LARGELY DETERMINED BY
MUNICIPALITIES, AND SO IT IS
REALLY HARD, SOMETIMES, TO GET A
HANDLE ON THE AVAILABILITY AND
ACCESSIBILITY OF ALCOHOL, WHICH
IN DOING OUR RESEARCH, WERE TWO
OF THE BIG ITEMS THAT, YOU KNOW,
INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE CDC
POINTED TO IN TERMS OF WHAT
COULD POTENTIALLY REDUCE THE
RATE OF ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS
NATIONWIDE, AND WHEN YOU HAVE
DECISIONS MADE AT THE LOCAL
LEVEL, YOU KNOW, IN WISCONSIN
HERE, OVER 1800 MUNICIPALITIES,
AND SO KIND OF THAT SPREAD OUT
DECISION MAKING, A LOT OF TIMES,
IT IS HARD TO REALLY GET A
HANDLE ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT
EXACTLY IS BEING DONE AND JUST
THE OVERALL INCREASE IN THE
AVAILABILITY OF ALCOHOL.
>> BRIEN, WE KNOW THERE ARE
STIGMAS AGAINST PEOPLE
STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION, BUT
IS THIS MORE OF A MENTAL HEALTH
CRISIS, AND WHAT DO YOU SEE AS
WAYS OF ADDRESSING ROOT CAUSES
OF ALCOHOL ADDICTION?
>> WELL, OKAY.
SO, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY IS.
IN FACT, THAT'S WHERE YOU FIND
ALCOHOL USE DISORDER, AS WE CALL
IT NOW, OR ALCOHOLISM, IS NOT
REALLY THE MEDICAL TERM, BUT IT
IS ALCOHOL USE DISORDER, WHERE,
YOU KNOW, THE CRITERIA FOR THAT
DIAGNOSIS IS FOUND IN THE
DIAGNOSTIC AND STATISTIC MANUAL
OF THE AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC
ASSOCIATION SO IT IS A MENTAL
HEALTH ISSUE, ABSOLUTELY IS.
IT IS INTERESTING THAT WAY.
SOMETIMES THE INDIVIDUAL
ALCOHOLIC OR ADDICTED PERSON
WILL WONDER, AM I ADDICTED OR AM
I CRAZY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WILL,
THINKING ABOUT IT IN THE SIMPLE
SENSE.
IT'S, LIKE, WELL, THERE --
THAT'S WHERE THIS PARTICULAR
ILLNESS IS COUCHED, UNDER THAT
HEADING, IF YOU WILL, MENTAL
HEALTH.
SO, I DON'T THINK I WOULD
NECESSARILY SEPARATE THE TWO, BY
ANY MEANS.
CERTAINLY, OTHER ISSUES IN
REGARDS TO MENTAL HEALTH IMPACT
IT, AND IT IMPACTS OTHER ISSUES
IN REGARD TO MENTAL HEALTH,
DRAMATICALLY, BUT IT IS ITS OWN
THING.
I WOULD ADD THAT.
WE KNOW TODAY -- AND THIS IS
SOMETHING, ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, I
FEEL KIND OF PRIVILEGED TO GET
TO SAY JUST IN THE COURSE OF MY
CAREER, WE HAVE COME TO SEE WITH
HARD SCIENCE AND NEUROLOGICAL
RESEARCH AND BRAIN IMAGING THAT
THIS THING WE CALL ADDICTION IS
A REAL THING.
IT IS NOT JUST SOMEBODY BEHAVING
POORLY.
IT IS A CHANGE IN THE WAY THAT
THE BRAIN OPERATES, AND IT IS
REALLY BEST DESCRIBED AS A
NEUROLOGICAL HIJACKING.
THERE'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT
HAPPEN WHEN YOU -- WHEN A PERSON
DRINKS ALCOHOL THAT KIND OF
SEPARATED, IN MANY WAYS FROM
OTHER DRUGS, THAT IT, AS -- IT
IS SUCH A SIMPLE ORGANIC
MOLECULE.
IT LITERALLY GOES EVERYWHERE IN
THE BODY, AND THAT MAKES IT
DIFFICULT TO RESEARCH IN A HARD
SCIENCE WAY.
IT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE MORE
DIFFICULT DRUGS TO RESEARCH
BECAUSE OF THAT BECAUSE IT'S NOT
KEPT TO JUST A SINGLE PATHWAY IN
THE BODY.
HOWEVER, TODAY, WE CAN SAY
AUTHORITATIVELY THAT THERE'S A
REAL THING THAT HAPPENS HERE.
THERE'S A CHANGE IN THE WAY THAT
THE BRAIN OPERATES.
THAT SEEMS INDULLBLE.
WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO UNDO IT.
IT'S MAYBE THE BEST DESCRIPTION
THAT I CAN THINK OF IS THAT IT
IS A NEUROHIJACKING AT THE
PSYCHOLOGY LEVEL, AND WHAT IS
ESSENTIALLY THE REASON I HAVE
THIS JOB IS BECAUSE OF THAT
PSYCHOLOGICAL HOOK THAT WE
UNDERSTAND THE MECHANISM OF THAT
MUCH BETTER TODAY, THAT IT'S A
REAL THING, AND IT IS BEST
DESCRIBED AS A HIJACKING OF THE
NEUROPATHWAYS INVOLVED WITH
ATTACHMENT.
IT IS AN ATTACHMENT.
THAT IS A REALLY GOOD WORD TO
THINK OF WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO
UNDERSTAND ADDICTIONS.
ADDICTIONS ARE ABOUT ATTACHMENT.
THEY ARE ABOUT A LOT OF
DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT THAT, IN
PARTICULAR, IS WHAT MAKES IT A
TOUGH NUT TO CRACK.
>> HUH.
VERY INTERESTING.
SO, ARI, IF THERE'S NOT A LOT OF
STATEWIDE POLICIES THAT ARE
GOING TOWARDS ADDRESSING ROOT
CAUSES AND PREVENTION, DOES
WISCONSIN HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES
KIND OF ON THE REACTION BACK END
SIDE FOR SERVICES LIKE
COUNSELING TO WRAP AROUND THOSE
WHO NEED IT?
>> YEAH.
THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION AND ONE
THAT I THINK, YOU KNOW,
POLICYMAKERS SHOULD ALSO BE
INTERESTED IN DIGGING INTO.
ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT WE
MENTIONED IN THE REPORT IS THAT
WE FOUND LAST YEAR THAT THE
STATE IS NOW WORKING WITH ONE OF
THE BIGGER BUDGET SURPLUSES IT'S
HAD IN RECENT YEARS WITH
DEFINITELY THE POTENTIAL TO, YOU
KNOW, FOCUS SOME OF THAT REVENUE
TOWARDS THINGS LIKE ADDRESSING,
YOU KNOW, PREVENTION, EDUCATION,
TREATMENT FOR THOSE WHO ARE
EXPERIENCING ISSUES SURROUNDING
ALCOHOL USE.
YOU KNOW, THERE ARE DEFINITELY
AVENUES THAT POLICYMAKERS COULD
BE TAKING.
IT IS HARD TO SAY RIGHT NOW
INDEFINITELY, YOU KNOW, YOU'D
EXPECT THAT IN TERMS OF SERVICES
THAT ARE AVAILABLE, YOU'D EXPECT
THINGS KIND OF DIFFER
GEOGRAPHICALLY, YOU KNOW, THERE
ARE DIFFERENT ISSUES, YOU KNOW,
FACING DIFFERENT COUNTIES, YOU
KNOW, SO I THINK IT IS A GREAT
QUESTION FOR POLICYMAKERS TO
CONTINUE TO PURSUE.
THE OTHER THING TO MENTION HERE
IS, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE RECENT
STIMULUS BILLS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE
AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN ACT, THAT
GAVE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS A LOT OF
REVENUE TO WORK WITH ON, YOU
KNOW, OF COURSE, A LOT OF THE
REVENUE'S GOING TOWARDS, YOU
KNOW, FILLING OTHER HOLES WHEN
IT COMES THIS THINGS IMPACTED BY
THE PANDEMIC, BUT WE THINK, YOU
KNOW, THIS IS CERTAINLY ONE AREA
THAT AT A LOCAL LEVEL, IF THERE
IS REVENUE, THAT COULD
POTENTIALLY BE USED FOR, YOU
KNOW, PUBLIC HEALTH SPENDING.
I'LL SAY, ALSO, THE WISCONSIN
POLICY FORUM DOES NOT ADVOCATE
FOR -- AS A NONPARTISAN
ORGANIZATION, WE DO NOT ADVOCATE
FOR SPECIFIC POLICIES, BUT JUST,
YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF WHAT'S OUT
THERE, THOSE ARE THE BIG ITEMS
WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT POLICIES
COULD BE PURSUED, BOTH AT THE
LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL.
>> AND, BRIEN, IF MANY PEOPLE
WERE POSSIBLY ABUSING ALCOHOL
BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, AND NOW WE
SEE THIS GETTING WORSE, HOW DOES
SOMEONE KNOW IF THEY NEED HELP,
AND IF SOMEONE WATCHING THIS
TODAY IS A FRIEND OR FAMILY
MEMBER OF SOMEONE WHO NEEDS
HELP, WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO
APPROACH THIS TOPIC?
>> I'M GLAD YOU GOT TO THAT
QUESTION.
FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU ARE ASKING
YOURSELF, GEEZ, I WONDER IF I
HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALCOHOL,
THAT'S A GOOD INDICATOR THAT YOU
PROBABLY DO.
THE ADVICE I'D HAVE FOR THE
INDIVIDUAL OR FOR THE FAMILY
MEMBER WOULD BE THIS, KEEPING IN
MIND THE WORD THAT I USE BEFORE
CAN BE REALLY HELPFUL, BECAUSE
IT'S VERY CONFOUNDING FOR THE
INDIVIDUAL AND THE FAMILY TO
FACE THIS.
IF YOU CAN REMEMBER THIS IS LIKE
A RELATIONSHIP, THIS IS LIKE AN
ATTACHMENT, AND SO IF YOU EVER
HAD A FRIEND WHO FELL IN LOVE
WITH SOMEONE WHO JUST WAS NO
GOOD FOR THEM, IT'S -- THAT'S
KIND OF LIKE WHAT YOU'RE FACING
HERE.
YOU HAVE A FRIEND WHO FELL IN
LOVE WITH SOMETHING, IT IS AN
ATTACHMENT.
THEY DID NOT ASK FOR IT.
WITH ATTACHMENTS, THEY ARE NOT
THAT VOLUNTARY.
THEY ARE DECISIONS WE MAKE IN
REGARD TO THEM, BUT THEY ARE NOT
REALLY VOLUNTARY.
ATTACHMENT IS WHAT OCCURS.
IF IT OCCURRED, THEN YOU'RE
GOING TO NEED TO HELP A PERSON
KIND OF GET THROUGH A BREAKUP,
IF YOU WILL.
IF YOU APPROACH IT LIKE THAT AND
THAT MIND SET, YOU'RE MORE THAN
LIKELY -- AND LOVING CARING MIND
SET, I CARE BOTH YOU, BUT I SEE
THIS HAPPENING, IT IS MUCH MORE
LIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
AGAIN, BOTH FOR THE FAMILY
PERSON AND FOR THE INDIVIDUAL TO
RECOGNIZE, I'VE GOT THIS
ATTACHMENT, I DIDN'T REALLY ASK
FOR IT, I DON'T REALLY WANT IT,
BUT I GOT IT, AND, THEREFORE, I
HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH TRYING
TO CHANGE MY LIFE AND, YOU KNOW,
I THINK IN ALL OF THE DETAILS
THAT GO ALONG WITH THAT BREAKUP,
WITH THE ATTACHMENT, IT IS THE
BEST WAY TO APPROACH IT.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE,
DEFINITELY A VERY IMPORTANT
TOPIC, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE
BOTH OF YOU CONTRIBUTING YOUR
UNIQUE PERSPECTIVES.
ARI BROWN, RESEARCHERS FROM
WISCONSIN POLICY FORUM, AND
BRIEN GLEESON, ADDICTION
COUNSELOR WITH THEMAYO CLINIC
HEALTH SYSTEM OUT OF O'CLAIRE,
THANK YOU, BOTH, VERY MUCH FOR
THE CONVERSATION.
>> WELL, THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
>> I ENJOYED IT.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS, AND THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
"NOON WEDNESDAY."