>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH PBS WINCE.
TODAY IS JULY 7.
SCIENTISTS ARE USING GENOME
SEQUENCING TO PLAN FOR PANDEMICS
AND IDENTIFY VARIANTS OF THE
SARS-CoV-2 LIKE THE MORE
CONTAGIOUS DELTA VARIANT.
JOINING ME TODAY ARE TWO
PROFESSORS AND RESEARCHERS OF
UW-MADISON, TOM FRIEDRICH AND
DAVE O'CONNOR.
THANK YOU, BOTH, VERY MUCH FOR
BEING HERE.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.
>> DAVID, I WANT TO START WITH
YOU.
THE VARIANT OF THE SARS-CoV-2
KNOWN AS DELTA IS NOW THE MOST
DOMINANT STRAIN IN THE UNITED
STATES AS RECENTLY REPORTED BY
THE CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL.
WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE DELTA
VARIANT?
>> WELL, WE KNOW THAT THIS DELTA
VARIANT IS THE DOMINANT VARIANT
BECAUSE IT IS MORE CONTAGIOUS.
THAT MEANS IT SPREADS MORE
EASILY, AND SO YOU CAN IMAGINE
THAT WITH A PREVIOUS VARIANT,
YOU MIGHT HAVE NEEDED TO BE IN A
ROOM WITH SOMEONE WHO IS
INFECTED FOR FIVE MINUTES TO
BECOME INFECTED, BUT NOW ONLY
TWO AND A HALF MINUTES TO BECOME
INFECTED SO WE KNOW IT IS MORE
CONTAGIOUS.
WE KNOW THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE
VACCINATED ARE GOING TO BE
PROTECTED FROM SEVERE DISEASE.
THE REALLY GOOD NEWS IS THAT IF
YOU HAVE GOTTEN YOUR VACCINE,
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE SICK
WITH THE DELTA VIRUS.
HOWEVER, YOU MIGHT STILL GET
INFECTED AND BE AN ASYMPTOMATIC
CARRIER MEANING YOU COULD
POTENTIALLY INFECT THOSE AROUND
YOU WHO ARE UNVACCINATED.
THESE TWO FEATURES, THE HIGH
CONTAGIOUSNESS AND THE FACT IT'S
SPREAD BY PEOPLE WHO ARE
VACCINATED AND ASYMPTOMATIC,
ALLOWED IT TO GET A FOOTHOLD IN
THE UNITED STATES AND IN
WISCONSIN SO QUICKLY.
>> AND, TOM, WHAT DO WE KNOW
ABOUT WHO SPECIFICALLY IS MOSTLY
CONTRACTING THE DELTA VARIANT,
AND HOW SICK ARE THEY GETTING?
>> SO THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION,
AND AS DAVE INDICATED, MOST OF
THE POME WHO ARE -- PEOPLE WHO
ARE GETTING SICK WITH THE DELTA
VARIANT, AND INDEED WITH COVID
GENERALLY IN THE UNITED STATES
ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT
VACCINATED.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT
PEOPLE, THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE
IN THE POPULATION WHO ARE
VULNERABLE, EITHER BECAUSE THEY
ARE NOT VACCINATED OR BECAUSE,
YOU KNOW, THEY MAY HAVE WEAKENED
IMMUNE SYSTEMS BECAUSE THEY HAVE
CANCER OR THEY ARE BEING TREATED
WITH ANTIREJECTION DRUGS BECAUSE
THEY ARE TRANSPLANT RECIPIENTS.
THOSE PEOPLE ARE ALSO AT RISK.
IT IS IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US TO
DO OUR PARTS TO REDUCE
TRANSMISSION OF THIS VARIANT AS
BEST WE CAN.
>> AND SO, DAVID, IF YOU ARE
VACCINATED, YOU SAID YOU CAN
STILL CONTRACT AND TRANSMIT THE
DELTA VARIANT?
DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD STILL
BE WEARING MASKS WHEN WE ARE OUT
IN PUBLIC?
HOW SERIOUSLY SHOULD WE TAKE IT?
>> WELL, AS LONG AS THE CASE
NUMBERS REMAIN VERY, VERY LOW,
THE LIKELIHOOD YOU'RE GOING TO
ENCOUNTER SOMEONE INFECTED IS
GOING TO BE VERY LOW.
I THINK WHAT WE HAVE HERE AT
LEAST IN DANE COUNTY WHERE WE
HAVE A VERY HIGH VACCINATION
RATE AND LOW NUMBER OF CASES IS
OKAY FOR RIGHT NOW.
WE DO NEED TO BE OPEN TO THE
POSSIBILITY THAT IF CASE NUMBERS
REBOUND AND GO UP AGAIN, THEN WE
MIGHT NEED TO RETURN TO MORE
AGGRESSIVE MASKING AND OTHER
RISK MITIGATION POLICIES IN THE
COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS.
AS THE WEATHER GETS COLDER AND
WE SPEND MORE TIME INSIDE, WE
ARE GOING TO NEED TO SEE WHAT
AFFECT THAT HAS ON THE SPREAD OF
THE VIRUS, AND WE'RE GOING TO
NEED TO POTENTIALLY CHANGE THE
PUBLIC HEALTH MEASURES
ACCORDINGLY.
I THINK IT'S MAYBE A LITTLE BIT
TOO OPTIMISTIC TO SAY JUST
BECAUSE WE HAVE A HIGH VACCINE
RATE THAT MEANS THE PANDEMIC IS
OVER.
I THINK WHAT WE SHOULD DO IS
ENJOY THIS MOMENT THAT WE ARE IN
RIGHT NOW WHEN CASE NUMBERS ARE
LOW.
PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT YET
VACCINATED SHOULD TAKE THIS
MOMENT TO GET VACCINATED SO THAT
IN SIX WEEKS OR SO THEY ARE
FULLY VACCINATED AND HAVE THE
BEST POSSIBLE PROTECTION FROM
THE DELTA VARIANT AND OTHER
TYPES OF VIRUS THAT MIGHT COME
IN THE FUTURE.
WE JUST NEED TO BE VERY
WATCHFUL.
I LIKEN IT TO BEING ON A BEACH
IN FLORIDA RIGHT BEFORE A
HURRICANE.
RIGHT NOW, THE SUN IS OUT.
THE WAVES ARE GREAT.
ENJOY YOUR TIME ON THE SAND.
THERE MIGHT BE A STORM WELL OFF
TO SEA THAT WE NEED TO BE
WORRIED ABOUT IN THE FUTURE.
>> TOM, DOES THE TYPE OF
COVID-19 VACCINE THAT YOU
RECEIVE IMPACT THE EFFICACY
AGAINST THE DELTA VARIANT OR
VARIANTS WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN
EMERGE?
>> SO THE SHORT ANSWER TO THAT
QUESTION IS NO.
AS FAR AS WE CAN TELL, THE TYPE
OF VACCINE DOES NOT REALLY
AFFECT THE ABILITY OF A
VACCINATED PERSON TO BE
PROTECTED FROM DELTA OR OTHER
VARIANTS WE ALREADY KNOW ABOUT.
THERE ARE TWO IMPORTANT
ASTERISKS TO THAT, HOWEVER.
THE FIRST IS THAT THERE'S DATA
COMING OUT OF THE U.K.
SUGGESTING THAT FOR THE TWO DOSE
VACCINES, THE FIEFS PFIZER AND MODERNA
VACCINES, AND PROBABLY ALSO
ASTRAZENECA, BUT NOT SURE ABOUT
THAT ONE, THAT YOU HAVE TO BE
FULLY VACCINATED TO HAVE
PROTECTION AGAINST THE SEVERE
DISEASE OF THE DELTA VARIANT SO
THOSE WITH ONE DOSE ARE NOT
WELL-PROTECTED AGAINST DELTA.
SIMILARLY, WE DO NOT KNOW HOW
THIS VIRUS WILL EVOLVE IN THE
FUTURE.
THERE ARE ALREADY INDICATIONS
THAT THE DELTA VARIANT MAY HAVE
NEW MUTATIONS LIKE THAT GET
INCORPORATED INTO THIS DELTA
VARIANT.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S OTHER
MUTATIONS WE KNOW ABOUT THAT MAY
AFFECT THE ABILITY OF OUR IMMUNE
RESPONSE TO RECOGNIZE THAT
VARIANT THAT THE KIND OF
STANDARD DELTA VARIANT DOES NOT
HAVE, AND IT MAY ACQUIRE, AND SO
THAT MAY MAKE THAT SORT OF NEW
VARIANT EVEN LESS RECOGNIZABLE
TO OUR IMMUNE SYSTEMS, AND, YOU
KNOW, WE HAVE TO BE READY FOR
THE FUTURE EVOLUTION OF THAT
VIRUS SO IT IS HARD TO PREDICT
HOW THE VACCINES WILL WORK
AGAINST FUTURE VARIANTS THAT
HAVE NOT COME AROUND YET.
I WOULD ADD ONE IMPORTANT THING
TO DAVE'S ANSWER JUST NOW, WHICH
IS ALSO THAT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER
THAT SCHOOL-AGED CHILDREN UNDER
THE AGE OF 12 CANNOT BE
VACCINATED YET.
SO WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT HOW WE
MAY NEED TO PREPARE FOR A FUTURE
WHERE THERE'S MORE TRANSMISSION,
WHEN OUR KIDS GO BACK TO SCHOOL,
THE KIDS ARE NOT VACCINATED AND
WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BE
VACCINATED YET, WE MAY SEE A
CHANGE IN THE PATTERNS OF COVID
TRANSMISSION, AND THAT'S
SOMETHING WE HAVE TO PAY CLOSE
ATTENTION TO.
>> AND, DAVE, AS YOU WERE
TALKING, IN WISCONSIN, THE
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH SERVICES
BEGAN REPORTING LAST MONTH, CASE
CASES OF THE DELTA VARIANT, AND
THE MOST RECENT DATA WE HAVE NOW
IS ABOUT A WEEK OLD, AND AT THAT
POINT IT SAID 71 CASES
STATEWIDE.
WITH TESTING GOING DOWN AND MORE
PEOPLE GETTING VACCINATEED, IS IT
DIFFICULT TO DECIPHER HOW
ACCURATE THAT 71 CASE COUNT
MIGHT BE, IF IT'S HIGHLY
TRANSMISSIBLE AND PEOPLE AREN'T
FINDING A WAY TO HAVE THAT
DETECTED.
>> SURE.
GREAT QUESTION.
THE GOOD NEWS IS AT THIS TIME
LAST YEAR WE HAD MORE VIRUS AND
LESS SEQUENCING.
SEQUENCING IS READING OUT 30
LETTERS THAT COMPRISE THE
GENETIC SEQUENCE TO DETERMINE
WHETHER A VIRUS LOOKS LIKE A
2020 VIRUS, A MADISON,
MILWAUKEE, GREEN BAY VIRUS,
WHETHER IT IS A DELTA VIRUS, OR
SOME OTHER VIRUS.
WE CAN GET THAT BY SEQUENCING
THE VIRUS, AND RIGHT NOW, WE AND
OUR PARTNERS AT STATE LAB
HYGIENE AND MARSHVILLE CLINIC
AND SEVERAL OTHERS THROUGHOUT
THE STATE ARE WORKING HARD TO
TRY TO SEQUENCE EVERY VIRUS THAT
WE CAN GET SEQUENCING FROM
STATEWIDE.
THAT'S A HUGE CHANGE FROM AT
THIS TIME LAST YEAR WHERE IN
DANE COUNTY WE HAD 5% TO 10% OF
THE TEST POSITIVE CASES
SEQUENCED.
STATEWIDE, IT WAS MUCH, MUCH
LESS, 1% OR 2%.
WE HAVE A REALLY GOOD VISIBILITY
INTO THESE DELTA VIRUSES AMONG
PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING TESTED, BUT
AS YOU POINT OUT, OUR ABILITY TO
PICK UP THESE CASES IS ONLY AS
GOOD AS OUR ABILITY TO TEST, AND
SINCE WE HAVE THIS INDICATION
THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE VACCINATED
MIGHT BECOME INFECTED BUT NOT
DEVELOP SYMPTOMS, THERE'S A VERY
REAL POSSIBILITY THAT WE'RE
GOING TO BE MISSING A LOT OF
CASES, AND THAT THE LAG TIME
BETWEEN WHEN SOMEONE PROVIDES A
SAMPLE AND WHEN A SEQUENCE GETS
GENERATED, AND WHEN THOSE
STATISTICS BECOME AVAILABLE
THROUGH THE STATE, THAT MEANS
THAT WE'RE ALREADY GOING TO BE A
COUPLE WEEKS BEHIND IN THE
REPORTING.
I WOULDN'T PUT TOO MUCH FAITH IN
THE SPECIFIC NUMBER OF 70.
WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT I THINK
A WEEK BEFORE THAT IT WAS 35,
AND NOW IT'S 70, AND SO WE CAN
REASONABLY ANTICIPATE THAT IT'S
GOING TO CONTINUE GOING UP, AND
THIS VIRUS IS GOING TO DISPLACE
THE VIRUSES THAT WERE
CIRCULATING PREVIOUSLY, AND SO
THAT RISK OF INCREASED
CONTAGIOUSNESS FOR PEOPLE
UNVACCINATED IS GOING TO
CONTINUE TO GROW AND AMPLIFY AS
WE MOVE THROUGH THE SUMMER.
>> NOW, TOM, THE ROCKEFELLER
FOUNDATION IS WORKING TO CREATE
AN INTERNATIONAL PANDEMIC
PREVENTION INSTITUTE, AND THE
UW-MADISON RECENTLY HAS BEEN A
PARTNER IN THAT EFFORT.
CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE PLANS?
HOW DO WE PREVENT A FUTURE
PANDEMIC GOING FORWARD?
>> SURE.
I THINK THAT ONE OF THE MAIN
THINGS THAT WE LEARNED IN THE
LAST 10 OR 15 YEARS IS THAT
DISEASES LIKE COVID WILL
CONTINUE TO EMERGE AND THREATEN
GLOBAL HEALTH.
THEY MAY THREATEN HEALTH LOCALLY
BEFORE THEY BECOME GLOBAL
PANDEMICS.
WHAT WE'D LIKE TO DO IS BE ABLE
TO DETECT EMERGENCE OF A NEW
DISEASE LIKE COVID, LOCALLY
WHERE IT IS HAPPENING, AND THEN,
HOPEFULLY, STAMP IT OUT BEFORE A
BECOMES A GLOBALLY DISRUPTIVE
PANDEMIC LIKE THE ONE WE'RE
LIVING THROUGH.
YOU KNOW, IN RECENT YEARS,
THERE'S BEEN OUTBREAK OF ZIKA
VIRUS IN THE AMERICAS AND 2009
INFLUENZA PANDEMIC, AND WE HAD,
YOU KNOW, LARGE SCALE OUTBREAK
OF EBOLA IN WEST AFRICA AND SO
ON.
WHAT'S TENDED TO HAPPEN IN THE
PAST IS THAT THERE IS AN
INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE TO THE
OUTBREAKS THAT KIND OF STARTS TO
RAMP UP AS THE OUTBREAK BECOMES
SEVERE.
MAYBE FUNDS AND SUPPLIES BECOME
AVAILABLE AS THE OUTBREAK IS
WANING, AND THEN SORT OF GOES
AWAY, AND THEN WE SORT OF TAKE
OUR EYE OFF THE BALL SO THERE'S
A BOOM AND BUST CYCLE.
THE FUNDING AND THINKING ABOUT
HOW TO RESPOND TO PANDEMIC AND
POTENTIALLY PANDEMIC DISEASES,
AND SO WHAT ROCKEFELLER AND
OTHER PARTNERS ARE TRYING TO DO
IS LAY THE FOUNDATIONS FOR A
MORE SUSTAINABLE APPROACH TO
DETECTING AND HOPEFULLY STOPPING
EMERGING DISEASES BEFORE THEY
BECOME PANDEMICS, AND SO INSTEAD
OF FORGETTING ABOUT COVID AFTER
IT SEEMS TO GO AWAY IN ANOTHER
YEAR OR TWO, HOPEFULLY THAT'LL
HAPPEN, WE WANT TO HAVE A SYSTEM
OF LABORATORIES AND CLOSE
RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THOSE
LABORATORIES AND PUBLIC HEALTH
PRACTITIONERS ON THE GROUND WHO
CAN TAKE THAT KIND OF
INFORMATION ABOUT VIRAL GENE
SEQUENCING, LABS LIKE DAVE'S AND
MINE CAN GENERATE, AND THEN USE
THAT INFORMATION TO HELP INFORM
A PUBLIC HEALTH RESPONSE ON THE
GROUND.
SO WHAT THAT MIGHT LOOK LIKE IS,
YOU KNOW, READING THESE
SEQUENCES AND LEARNING, OKAY,
THERE'S A NEW VIRUS IN THIS
LOCATION, SEEING DELTA EMERGING
IN OUR BACKYARD, AND SO MAYBE
THAT MEANS WE HAVE TO LOOK
CAREFULLY AT WHO IS GETTING
DELTA AND WHAT ARE THE DRIVERS
OF THOSE OUTBREAKS, AND SO THAT
SEQUENCING CAN THEN INFORM A
BETTER TAILORED AND TARGETED
PUBLIC HEALTH RESPONSE.
WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO DO WITH
THIS SORT OF INTERNATIONAL
INSTITUTE IS DEFINE BEST
PRACTICES SO THAT LABS AND
PUBLIC HEALTH PRACTITIONERS AND
CLINICIANS CAN ALL WORK TOGETHER
BETTER TO GET A BETTER HANDLE ON
COVID AND USE THAT AS A RESPONSE
TO WHATEVER COMES NEXT AS,
UNFORTUNATELY, THERE WILL
PROBABLY BE SOMETHING.
>> THAT SOUNDS LIKE A HEAVY
LIFT, DAVE, AS YOU ALREADY
DESCRIBED YOUR -- YOU DESCRIBED
TRYING TO SEQUENCE EVERY TEST OF
THE VIRUS.
TAKING A BABY STEP BACK, CAN YOU
GIVE US A QUICK SENSE OF WHAT
GENOME SEQUENCING IS AND WHY
DOES THIS KIND OF SURVEILLANCE
MATTER?
>> SURE.
SO GENOMIC SURVEILLANCE IS
REALLY JUST READING THE LETTERS
IN THE VIRUSES TO BASICALLY
DETERMINE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE,
AND SO YOU MAY HAVE HEARD OF
PEOPLE GETTING THEIR GENOME
SEQUENCED.
IF THEY HAVE A RARE DISEASE OR
IF THEY HAVE A FAMILY HISTORY OF
DISEASE, OR IF THEY HAVE CANCER,
THERE YOU READ THE BODIES ON
GENOME, ABOUT 3 MILLION LETTERS
LONG, AND VIRUSES ARE A LOT
SIMPLER.
THE COVID VIRUS' GENOME IS ONLY
30,000 LETTERS LONG, AND WE JUST
READ THOSE 30,000 LETTERS WITH
FANCY INSTRUMENTS IN THE LAB.
THE TRICK IS, OF COURSE, TO MAKE
THAT INFORMATION ACTIONABLE.
TOM AND I SPENT MUCH OF OUR
CAREERS WORKING ON HIV, AND ONE
OF THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE
LEARNED FROM WORKING ON THAT IS
THAT ALL THE TECHNOLOGY IN THE
WORLD DOESN'T MAKE A BIT A
DIFFERENCE IF IT CAN'T BE
BROUGHT TO THE COMMUNITIES THAT
NEED IT AND IF THE INFORMATION
ABOUT HOW TO USE THAT KNOWLEDGE
ISN'T THERE.
REALLY, WORKING TO BRING THE
TECHNOLOGIES TO THE PEOPLE WHO
WOULD BENEFIT FROM IT IS A BIG
PART OF WHAT THIS INSTITUTE IS
ALL ABOUT.
IT IS A BIG GAP THAT EXISTS
BETWEEN LABS THAT GENERATE
REALLY SOPHISTICATED AND FANCY
DATA AND THE PEOPLE ON THE
GROUND WHO WILL BE ABLE TO USE
IT MOST EFFECTIVELY, TO TAILOR
PUBLIC HEALTH MESSAGES, TO
IDENTIFY PEOPLE WHO ARE AT
GREATEST RISK, TO IDENTIFY IF
THERE'S A COMMUNITY THAT DOES
HAVE A FAST SPREADING VARIANT
THAT WE NEED TO BE WORRIED
ABOUT, AND, YOU KNOW, REALLY
COMMUNICATING THAT EFFECTIVELY.
THERE'S HUGE AMOUNTS OF PLACES
WHERE WE CAN WORK WITH PUBLIC
HEALTH AND PUBLIC HEALTH CAN
WORK WITH US, AND WE CAN JOIN
HANDS MORE TIGHTLY TO TRY TO USE
THIS FANCY TECHNOLOGY TO HELP
THE GREATEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE
POSSIBLE.
>> SO, TOM, WHY DIDN'T THIS
BRIDGE BETWEEN PUBLIC HEALTH AND
PEOPLE RESEARCHING THESE
VIRUSES, WHY WASN'T THAT BRIDGE
THERE BEFORE, AND ONCE WE BUILD
THAT BRIDGE, WILL THE
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR SOCIAL
DISTANCING, WEARING MASKS, THOSE
HAVE BECOME POLITICAL, WILL IT
BE DIFFICULT TO GET THE MESSAGES
OUT TO PEOPLE TO FOLLOW THE
GUIDANCE?
>> WELL, THOSE ARE BOTH GOOD
QUESTIONS.
I THINK THERE'S A COUPLE OF
REASONS WHY THESE BRIDGES HAVE
NOT EXISTED SO MUCH BEFORE.
THERE'S BEEN A REVOLUTION IN
GENE SEQUENCING TECHNOLOGY
THAT'S OCCURRED IN THE LAST 10
TO 15 YEARS THAT MADE IT
INCREASINGLY EASY AND CHEAP TO
SEQUENCE VIRAL GENOMES, AND SO
THE SCALE OF GENOMIC SEQUENCING
FOR THE COVID VIRUS OCCURRING
WORLDWIDE -- I MEAN, THERE'S
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF
INDIVIDUAL VIRAL SEQUENCES NOW
IN GLOBAL DATA BASES THAT
PROVIDE THESE KIND OF GENETIC
FINGERPRINTS THAT LET US TRACK
VERY CLOSELY HOW CERTAIN VIRUSES
ARE MOVING THROUGH SPACE AND
TIME AND UNDERSTANDING THE
DRIVERS WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT
OF TRANSITION, AND SO THAT IS
ONLY HAS BECOME POSSIBLE THROUGH
THIS REVOLUTION THAT'S MADE THE
APPROACH FASTER, CHEAPER, AND
EASIER.
THAT MEANS MORE LABS IN MORE
PLACES CAN DO IT, AND THAT'S
JUST SOMETHING THAT THAT EVEN
FIVE YEARS AGO OR TEN YEARS AGO
ABOUT WHEN WITH THERE WAS THE
2009 INFLUENZA PANDEMIC, IT WAS
JUST NOT POSSIBLE AT THE SAME
SCALE, AND SO BECAUSE IT HAS NOT
BEEN THAT POSSIBLE BEFORE,
PEOPLE HAVE NOT REALLY THOUGHT A
LOT ABOUT HOW TO TAKE THIS VERY
SOPHISTICATED INFORMATION, VERY
DETAILED INFORMATION, AND MAKE
IT DIGESTIBLE, ACCESSIBLE, AND
ACTIONABLE IN THE PUBLIC HEALTH
SETTING.
WE HAVE DATA BASES ON THE PUBLIC
HEALTH SIDE THAT ALLOW US TO
TRACK, YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT MAY
BE CASES OF A CERTAIN INFECTION,
BUT THOSE DATA BASES WERE NOT
BUILT WITH, YOU KNOW, VIRAL
SEQUENCE INFORMATION IN MIND,
AND SO IT IS DIFFICULT TO GET
THIS INFORMATION IN THERE, AND,
ALSO, IN OUR COUNTRY, PUBLIC
HEALTH IS HIGHLY DECENTRALIZED,
AND SO IT IS REALLY OVERSEEN BY
STATE, COUNTY, AND LOCAL HEALTH
BOARDS THAT ALL USE DIFFERENT
INFORMATION SYSTEMS AND HAVE
DIFFERENT LEVELS OF STAFFING AND
BUDGETS THAT ARE JUST NOT REALLY
EQUIPPED TO HANDLE THIS KIND OF
INFORMATION, AND SO PART OF THIS
PUSH THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT IS JUST TO THINK ABOUT HOW
TO MOD MODERNIZE DATA TRACKING
NEEDED TO BE ABLE TO LINK
INFORMATION THAT IS NOW EASIER
TO GENERATE BACK TO PUBLIC
HEALTH, SO THAT'S WHY THESE
BRIDGES HAVE NOT BEEN STRONGER
IN THE PAST.
I CAN'T REMEMBER THE SECOND HALF
OF THE QUESTION.
I'M SORRY.
>> WILL IT BE DIFFICULT TO GET
PEOPLE TO FOLLOW GUIDANCE ONCE
WE HAVE THESE NEW BRIDGES BUILT
BECAUSE IT'S BECOME A POLITICAL
STAMP?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT THERE ARE
GOING TO BE CHALLENGES, FOR
SURE, AND, CERTAINLY, ONE THING
I DID NOT FULLY ANTICIPATE
COMING IN TO THIS PANDEMIC WAS
THE EXTENT TO WHICH JUST SORT OF
BASIC PUBLIC HEALTH
RECOMMENDATIONS LIKE WEARING A
MASK WOULD BECOME KIND OF FUSED
WITH POLITICS.
IT IS DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT
POLITICS FROM ANYTHING THAT WE
TALK ABOUT THESE DAYS,
UNFORTUNATELY, AND SO THERE MAY
BE MORE BARRIERS THAN WE
FORESAW.
HOWEVER, I THINK THAT THAT
DECENTRALIZING ACCESS TO THE
INFORMATION AND SORT OF MORE
DEMOCRACY THE GENERATION OF THE
SEQUENCE INFORMATION AS IT GETS
EASIER TO DO, THEN, YOU KNOW,
LOCAL HEALTH DEPARTMENTS CAN
TAILOR MESSAGING TO THEIR LOCAL
COMMUNITIES HOPEFULLY IN WAYS
THAT LOCAL COMMUNITIES WILL
FIND, YOU KNOW, MORE ENGAGING
AND EASIER TO UNDERSTAND AND
FOLLOW THAN IF IT SEEMS TO BE
COMING DOWN FROM ABOVE FROM SOME
PLACE FAR AWAY.
>> THE PANDEMIC CERTAINLY HAS
ACCELERATED A LOT OF THINGS IN
THEIR PACE, AND I WANT TO TOUCH
ON, DAVID, YOU'RE ANALYZING
SAMPLES OF ENVIRONMENTAL AIR AND
HOW MUCH A VIRUS COULD EXIST IN
THE AIR.
THAT'S WRAPPED UP IN THIS WORK
WITH THE INSTITUTE.
CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR US?
>> SURE.
SO THIS ACTUALLY BUILDS ON TOM'S
ANSWER, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS THAT
AS WE GO THROUGH THE PANDEMIC,
WE REALIZE THAT THERE ARE GOING
TO BE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT
INTERESTED IN BEING TESTED.
THEY DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH
COVID, AND YET THAT DOESN'T MEAN
THE VIRUS ISN'T AROUND SO WE
HAVE TO COME UP WITH INNOVATIVE
WAYS THAT WE CAN LOOK FOR THE
VIRUS AND UNDERSTAND IT, EVEN IN
PLACES WHERE THERE MIGHT BE SOME
RESISTANCE TO GETTING TESTED,
AND THERE MIGHT BE MISTRUST.
ONE WAY TO DO THAT IS TO SURVEIL
THE ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE
LIVE.
ONE WAY TO DO THAT IS BY LOOKING
AT WASTE WATER.
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF WORK DONE
AROUND THE COUNTRY IN THE LAST
YEAR OR SO, LOOKING AT HOW MUCH
VIRUS IS PRESENT IN THE WASTE
WATER.
HERE IN WISCONSIN, OUR STATE LAB
OF HYGIENE COLLECTS AND ANALYZES
WASTE WATER FROM AROUND THE
STATE EVERY WEEK TO DETERMINE
HOW MUCH VIRAL GENETIC MATERIAL
IS FOUND IN IT, AND IT CAN BE
USED AS A PREDICTER OF HOW MUCH,
YOU KNOW, HOW MANY CASES WE
MIGHT EXPECT AT SOME POINT IN
THE FUTURE.
THE OTHER THING WE CAN DO AND
STARTING TO DO IS DO THE SAME
THING BUT WITH AIR.
SO IMAGINE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE
SAMPLEERS IN AIRPORTS, BUS
STATIONS, OR MALLS.
PLACES WHERE PEOPLE COME
TOGETHER WHERE YOU COULD
BASICALLY COLLECT AND CAPTURE
THE AIR, COUNT HOW MUCH VIRUS OR
GENETIC MATERIAL IS IN THE AIR,
AND SEQUENCE THAT VIRUS TO
DETERMINE WHICH VIRAL VARIANTS
ARE PRESENT, AND, IN FACT, PART
OF THAT ROCKEFELLER INSTITUTE WE
WERE REFERRING TO EARLIER IS
GOING TO FUND PUTTING AIR
SAMPLERS IN HERE IN MADISON,
MILWAUKEE, AND MARSHFIELD, AND
THEN WITH PARTNERS IN MINNESOTA,
AND SO MY OFFICE IS A AIR
SAMPLER STORAGE FACILITY AT THE
MOMENT.
ONE SAMPLE IS HERE BEHIND ME
LEFT SHOULDER.
THEY ARE SIMPLE DEVICES.
THEY LOOK LIKE SHARPER IMAGE AIR
FILTERS.
YOU RUN THEM IN THE BACKGROUND
AND COLLECT A FILTER AFTER 10 TO
12 HOURS, COLLECT WHAT'S TRAPPED
IN THE FILTER, AND ANALYZE IT.
THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF
INNOVATION TO BE TESTED OUT IN
UNIVERSITIES WHERE WE HAVE THE
LUXURY OF TIME AND FREEDOM TO
EXPLORE CAN FIRST BE PROTOTYPED
IN PLACES LIKE UW-MADISON, AND
THEN IF IT WORKED, ONCE THE BUGS
ARE IRONED OUT, YOU CAN BRING IT
TO PLACES WHERE IT COULD BE
REALLY USEFUL AND GIVE THIS TO
LOCAL PUBLIC HEALTH DEPARTMENTS
OR THE SCHOOLS TO USE IT AS AN
ADDITIONAL TOOL TO HELP, YOU
KNOW, PROVIDE AN EXTRA LAYER OF
PROTECTION AND INFORMATION.
>> NOW THE LAST QUESTION IS FOR
BOTH OF YOU.
DAVID, I'LL START WITH YOU.
WHAT HAS BEEN A BIG LESSON
LEARNED EITHER THROUGH YOUR
RESEARCH OR EVEN YOUR OWN
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AS YOU HAVE
BEEN NAVIGATING THIS PANDEMIC?
>> WELL, I CAME OF AGE AS A
STUDENT IN THE EARLY '90s, IN
THE PEAK OF THE HIV EPIDEMIC.
AND THE HIV EPIDEMIC HAS BECOME
THE DEFINING PROFESSIONAL
CHALLENGE OF MY CAREER.
I'VE BEEN WORKING WITH TOM AND
OTHERS ON THIS FOR MORE THAN 25
YEARS.
ONE OF THE THINGS I REALIZED IN
TALKING TO OTHER PEOPLE, OTHER
YOUNG PEOPLE, MY SON IS 12, AND
SO I INTERACT WITH OUR UNDERGRAD
STUDENTS AND KIDS MY SON'S AGE
IS THAT THIS PANDEMIC IS GOING
TO PUT THAT SAME SORT OF
DRAMATIC LIFE-CHANGEING ON THEM
AS THE HIV EPIDEMIC DID FOR ME
WHEN I WAS ABOUT THAT AGE.
WHAT THAT DOES IS CREATE
OPPORTUNITY THAT I DON'T THINK
WE'VE HAD BEFORE WHERE SOME OF
THE GREATEST YOUNG MINDS TODAY,
THE PEOPLE WITH THE GREATEST
AMOUNT OF AMBITION AND ENERGY
AND TALENT ARE GOING TO BE
THINKING ABOUT HEALTH, SCIENCE,
MEDICINE IN WAYS THEY NEVER DID
BEFORE.
I DON'T THINK IT'S OUT OF SCHOOL
TO SAY THAT SYSTEMS LIKE THE
ONES ON AMAZON AND MICROSOFT AND
APPLE ARE A LOT BETTER THAN THE
SORT OF SYSTEMS THAT PUBLIC
HEALTH HAS TO ATTRACT THEIR
INFORMATION, AND SO IF WE GET
THAT KIND OF TALENT, WE CAN
LEVERAGE THE KIND OF TALENT IN
THE NEXT GENERATION OF EMERGING
LEADERS ACROSS ALL KINDS OF
DIFFERENT DISCIPLINES.
I THINK WE COULD REALLY HAVE A
TRANSFORMATIVE FUTURE FOR PUBLIC
HEALTH AND DISEASE SURVEILLANCE
AND FOR MAKING EVERYONE
HEALTHIER, AND I THINK WE HAVE
THIS MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY TO DO
THIS RIGHT NOW, AND SO, FOR ME,
THE GREAT THING IS SEEING THAT
PEOPLE NOT ONLY HAVE BEEN
AFFECTED, BUT HOW INTERESTED AND
EAGER THEY ARE TO HELP, AND SO I
THINK IT'S OUR JOB AT THE
UNIVERSITY AND IN OTHER SCHOOLS
TO HARNESS THAT AND REALLY GIVE
PEOPLE WINDOWS INTO HOW THEIR
UNIQUE SKILLS, INTERESTS, AND
APTITUDE CAN BE USED AND
CONTRIBUTE TO FIGHTING OFF THE
NEXT ONE SO THERE'S NOT A
COVID-25 OR INFLUENZA PANDEMIC
OF 2028.
>> TOM, SAME QUESTION TO YOU.
>> WELL, I THINK BUILDING ON
DAVE'S ANSWER, YOU KNOW, WHEN I
REFLECT ON THE PANDEMIC, IT IS
OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, PROFOUNDLY
AFFECTED ALMOST EVERYONE IN THE
WORLD, AND SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
BEEN HUGE AMOUNTS OF JUST
ANGUISH, LOSS, AND IT'S BEEN
REALLY TRAGIC, BUT I THINK IT'S
ALSO IMPORTANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT
THAT BURDEN AND TRAGEDY IS NOT
REALLY BEEN VERY EVENLY
DISTRIBUTED, AND I THINK THAT
THAT'S ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY THAT
WE'RE SEEING, THAT, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE
THAT WE'VE INTERACTED WITH, AS
DAVE SAID, OR OUR OWN MEDICAL
AND Ph.D. STUDENTS AND
UNDERGRADUATES WHO MAY NOT WANT
TO PURSUE A CAREER IN BENCH
SCIENCE, LIKE WE DO, BY CUTTING
LIQUIDS INTO CLEAR LIQUIDS, BUT
THEY WANT TO CONTRIBUTE IN SOME
WAY TO, YOU KNOW, IMPROVING
HEALTH AND IMPROVING THE
PREPAREDNESS FOR FUTURE
PANDEMICS, IMPROVING HEALTH
EQUITY, AND, YOU KNOW, BOTH
INTERNATIONALLY AND HERE IN OUR
OWN COMMUNITIES, AND SO I THINK
THAT WHAT'S BEEN REALLY
INSPIRING THROUGH THE PANDEMIC
IS TO SEE HOW MANY SCIENTISTS
AND MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AND
PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSIONALS JUST
SORT OF, YOU KNOW, ROLLED UP
THEIR SLEEVES AND DECIDED TO
WORK TOGETHER, YOU KNOW,
WORRYING LATER ABOUT WHO SHOULD
GET THE MOST CREDIT FOR WHAT,
BUT JUST TRYING TO HELP ON
WHATEVER SCALE THEY COULD, USING
WHATEVER SKILLS THEY HAD, AND I
HOPE THAT WE CAN KEEP THIS
SPIRIT ALIVE, AND, YOU KNOW, USE
THE SORT OF GALVANIZED ATTITUDES
WE'VE HAD TO TRY TO HELP OUR
FELLOW CITIZENS AND PROTECT OUR
LOCAL AND GLOBAL HEALTH TO BUILD
BRIDGES THAT WERE NOT THERE
BEFORE, TO, YOU KNOW, GO OUT IN
COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN
UNDERSERVED AND MAKE SURE THAT,
YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE ACCESS TO
BASIC PUBLIC HEALTH NEEDS IN
ADDITION TO FANCY GENOME
SEQUENCING FOR PATHOGENS.
I THINK THERE'S A TREMENDOUS
OPPORTUNITY HERE TO RECOGNIZE
THESE INEQUITIES AND HELP HEALTH
OUTCOMES AND JUST GENOMIC
SEQUENCING IS JUST A PART OF
THIS.
>> WELL, I WANT TO THANK YOU
BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, TOM
FRIEDRICH AND DAVE O'CONNOR,
VIROLOGY PROFESSORS AND
RESEARCHERS AT UW-MADISON, THANK
YOU, BOTH, VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS, AND THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
"NOON WEDNESDAY."