>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK,
MULTIMEDIA JOURNALIST ON "HERE &
NOW" ON PBS WISCONSIN.
TODAY IS JUNE 9.
AFTER A YEAR OF PROTESTS
DEMANDING REFORMS AND POLICING
PRACTICES AND STANDARDS, WHERE
DOES WISCONSIN'S LARGEST POLICE
DEPARTMENT IN MILWAUKEE STAND ON
WORKING TOWARDS MEANINGFUL
REFORM, AND HOW DOES IT COMPARE
TO PEER CITIES ACROSS THE
COUNTRY IN A COMPREHENSIVE
REPORT RELEASED EXAMINED THESE
QUESTIONS CLOSELY, AND ONE OF
THE AUTHORS AND PRESIDENT OF THE
WISCONSIN POLICY FORUM, ROB
HENKEN, JOINS US TO EXPLAIN
MORE.
ROB, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
JOINING US TODAY.
NOW, MILWAUKEE'S MAYOR REQUESTED
THIS ANALYSIS FROM YOU
SPECIFICALLY.
WHAT WAS THE PURPOSE BEHIND THIS
REQUEST, AND, PARTICULARLY, YOU
KNOW, THE CITY ESTABLISHED THIS
COLLABORATIVE COMMUNITY
COMMITTEE IN 2017, AND IT MADE
ITS OWN RECOMMENDATIONS.
>> SO, CLEARLY, MARISA, POLICE
REFORM IS NOT A NEW TOPIC FOR
THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE.
IT PROCEEDS THE PROTESTS LAST
SUMMER AND THE GEORGE FLOYD
INCIDENT, AND THERE HAVE BEEN
EFFORTS ONGOING FOR SEVERAL
YEARS.
THAT SAID, IN THE WAKE OF THE
PROTESTS, SHORTLY THEREAFTER,
THE MAYOR DECIDED TO BRING
TOGETHER A VERY BROAD GROUP OF
COMMUNITY STAKE HOLDERS,
INCLUDING ADVOCATES AND
ACTIVISTS, INCLUDING THE
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND
FIRE AND POLICE COMMISSION
LEADERSHIP, THEMSELVES, AND TO
JUST LAUNCH A DISCUSSION ABOUT
WHERE MILWAUKEE NEEDS TO GO
NEXT.
I THINK AT THAT FIRST MEETING,
THERE WAS A DECISION THAT REALLY
THE GROUP COULD BENEFIT FROM
JUST COMMON UNDERSTANDING ABOUT
WHERE WE STOOD TODAY.
IN PARTICULAR, WITH POLICE
REFORM EFFORTS BUBBLING UP
NATIONALLY, WITH PROPOSALS
FLYING IN FROM ALL OVER THE
PLACE, THE SPECIFIC TASK THAT WE
THOUGHT WE COULD DO THAT WOULD
REALLY ADD SOME VALUE TO THOSE
DELIBERATIONS WAS TO ESTABLISH
WHEN IT COMES TO THE KEY AREAS
OF REFORM, WHERE DID THE
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT
STAND WITH REGARDS TO ITS
POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS, AND THEN
WE ADDED ONE ADDITIONAL LAYER OF
ANALYSIS THAT LOOKED AT FIVE
PEER CITIES AND WENT A LITTLE
DEEPER INTO HOW MILWAUKEE
COMPARED TO THOSE.
THE FINAL THING BEFORE YOUR NEXT
QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW, THIS IS
REALLY A MOVING TARGET.
WE STARTED THIS ANALYSIS LATE
LAST FALL AND CONTINUED UNTIL
JUST A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND THERE
WERE POINTS IN TIME WHERE WE HAD
DONE OUR ANALYSIS, WE HAD
WRITTEN IT UP, AND WE HAD TO GO
AND REWRITE IT AS SOMETHING
WOULD HAPPEN IN TERMS OF CHANGES
THAT WERE ACTUALLY ADOPTED BY
THE FIRE/POLICE COMMISSION OR
THE MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
>> AND WE WILL GET INTO THOSE
MOVING TARGETS, AS YOU CALL
THEM, AND YOUR REPORT HAD SIX
MAIN AREAS OF FOCUS.
REIMAGINING PUBLIC SAFETY, USE
OF FORCE, DATA COLLECTION,
ACCOUNTABILITY, TRAINING, AND
DEMILITARIZATION.
OF THOSE, WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU
THE MOST AFTER DIGGING INTO THEM
AND EXAMINING REFORM PROPOSALS
IN THESE AREAS, AND WHERE DOES
MILWAUKEE'S PROGRESS STAND?
>> YEAH.
WELL, SO IN TERMS OF STANDING
OUT WITH REGARD TO THE LAST
POINT AND PROGRESS, USE OF
FORCE.
IT IS INTERESTING.
BECAUSE HAD WE RELEASED THIS
REPORT IN EARLY DECEMBER OF LAST
YEAR, OUR CONCLUSION WOULD HAVE
BEEN DIFFERENT FROM WHERE IT
ENDED UP BECAUSE IN DECEMBER OF
2020, THE MILWAUKEE FIRE AND
POLICE COMMISSION WORKING
CLOSELY, TO THEIR CREDIT, WITH
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT, DID
ADOPT A SERIES OF USE OF FORCE
REFORMS THAT ESSENTIALLY PUT
MILWAUKEE RIGHT IN LINE WITH THE
NATIONAL CALLS IN THAT AREA.
AND, AGAIN, THIS IS SOMEWHAT
SUBJECTIVE, JUST BECAUSE
SOMEBODY ISSUES A CALL FOR USE
OF FORCE REFORM, HOW DOES THAT
BUBBLE UP?
WE SAY, OH, GOOD, YOU MET THAT
LITMUS TEST.
WE WITH LOOKED ACROSS A RANGE OF
DIFFERENT GROUPS, INCLUDING
POLICE ORGANIZATIONS AND
ADVOCACY GROUPS, BUT ONE IN
PARTICULAR IS SOMETHING CALLED
"IT CAN'T WAIT" CAMPAIGN IN THE
WAKE OF THE FLOYD INCIDENT.
THEY CAME OUT WITH POLICE FORCE
PROPOSALS, AND POLICE
DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY
LOOKED AT THOSE SERIOUSLY, AND
GOVERNMENTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY,
AND SO WHEN YOU HOLD UP WHAT
MILWAUKEE DID IN DECEMBER OF
2020 WITH REGARD TO USE OF
FORCE, YOU KNOW, HOW OFFICERS
ARE AUTHORIZED AND ACTUALLY CAN
USE
UTILIZE FORCE IN CERTAIN
SITUATIONS AND WHAT TYPE OF
FORCE THEY CAN USE, CITY OF
MILWAUKEE AND MILWAUKEE POLICE
DEPARTMENT ARE NOW VERY MUCH IN
LINE WITH THE "IT CAN'T WAIT"
RECOMMENDATION SO THAT'S A
SERIOUS AREA OF PROGRESS.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK ONE
OF THE REAL INTERESTING FROM A
POLICY WALK PERSPECTIVE, THE
WHOLE CONVERSATION IS UNDER THE
CATEGORY OF REIMAGINING POLICE
OR REIMAGINING PUBLIC SAFETY,
AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A RANGE
OF REIMAGINING REFORM EFFORTS
GOING ON.
ONE IS THE EFFORT TO DEFUND
POLICE, WHICH IS, OBVIOUSLY,
VERY CONTENTIOUS, BUT IT -- A
LOT OF THIS SPEAKS TO HOW DO YOU
USE LAW ENFORCEMENT AND WHICH
TYPES OF 911 CALLS AND OTHER
INCIDENTS DO YOU WANT LAW
ENFORCEMENT TO BE THE RESPONDER
VERSUS TRAINED CLINICIANS AND
BEHAVIOR HEALTH VERSUS EMERGENCY
MEDICAL SERVICES VERSUS JUST
CIVILIANS WHEN IT IS A TRAFFIC
INCIDENT?
SO THERE'S A LOT OF AREA THERE
THAT REALLY, WE'VE JUST STARTED
TO THINK ABOUT IN MILWAUKEE.
I THINK THAT'S ONE WHERE MORE
PROGRESS CAN BE MADE.
>> AND YOU SPECIFICALLY TALK
ABOUT IN YOUR REPORT THAT YOUR
ANALYSIS DID NOT INCLUDE, YOU
KNOW, A GRADE OR HOW WELL THE
DEPARTMENT IS DOING, YOU KNOW,
ON THE INDIVIDUAL LEVEL OF HOW
THEIR OFFICERS ARE MAYBE
IMPLEMENTING THESE CHANGES.
DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN
HOW THESE THINGS PLAY OUT?
BECAUSE A LOT OF TIMES THINGS
CAN BE SUBJECTIVE IN TERMS OF
WHAT WOULD A REASONABLE OFFICER
DO, AND IS IT DIFFICULT TO
ACTUALLY MEASURE THE CHANGES OR
PROGRESS OR BACKSLIDES THAT ARE
BEING MADE IN POLICE REFORM?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I'M SO GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP THAT
POINT BECAUSE IT IS -- IT'S, YOU
KNOW, IT WAS A POINT OF CONCERN
FOR US IN EVEN DOING THIS
RESEARCH AND RELEASING THIS
REPORT.
VERY CLEARLY, WHAT WE ARE
LOOKING AT IS WHAT MILWAUKEE
POLICE DEPARTMENT POLICIES AND
PROTOCOLS SAY ON PAPER.
SO THAT IS SOMETHING THAT A
POLICY RESEARCHER CAN DO.
WE CAN GO AND SEE WHETHER THE
SPIRIT AND LETTER OF THE WRITTEN
WORD WHEN IT COMES TO POLICIES
AND PROTOCOLS ON THIS RANGE OF
DIFFERENT TYPES OF ISSUES,
WHETHER THOSE ARE OR ARE NOT
CONSISTENT WITH SOME OF THESE
NATIONAL CALLS FOR REFORM, AND
WITH THE WAY OTHER CITIES HAVE
CONSTRUCTED THEIR POLICIES AND
PROTOCOLS.
WHAT WE DEFINITIVELY CANNOT DO
OR COULD NOT DO IN THIS CASE AS
POLICY RESEARCHERS WAS TRY TO
EVALUATE HOW THE POLICIES AND
PROTOCOLS, NUMBER ONE, ARE BEING
IMPLEMENTED OUT ON THE STREET BY
POLICE OFFICERS.
NOW, THERE ARE OTHER MECHANISMS
THAT CAN BE USED.
CITIZEN COMPLAINTS SO THAT IS A
CRITICAL AREA THAT WE DID NOT
GET INTO LAST NIGHT, AND WHAT
EXTENT IS THE LEADERSHIP
DEPARTMENT ACTIVELY PROMOTING
THE SERIOUSNESS OF THE POLICIES
AND PROTOCOLS IN ENFORCING THEM,
AND THERE, TOO, WE ARE SPEAKING
TO WHAT THEY SAY WE ARE NOT
SPEAKING TO THE WAY THE
LEADERSHIP IS ESSENTIALLY
ADVOCATING FOR THEM TO THE
FRONTLINE POLICE OFFICERS AS
WELL AS JUST HOW THOSE OFFICERS
ARE CARRYING THEM OUT ON THE
STREETS, AND SO IT IS VERY
IMPORTANT THAT WHILE THE
MESSAGING THAT WE HAVE BEEN
DELIVERING HERE IS PRETTY
POSITIVE IN TERMS OF THE
PROGRESS THAT'S BEEN MADE ON
PAPER, WE CANNOT COMMENT AS TO
HOW THESE POLICIES ARE BEING
CARRIED OUT.
>> NOW, CONTINUING THAT, HOW
DOES, THEN, BOTH DATA COLLECTION
AND ACCOUNTABILITY PIECE COME
IN?
ACCOUNTABILITY DOES KIND OF
SOUND LIKE EVALUATION OF HOW
WELL THESE PROTOCOLS AND
PROCEDURES ARE BEING
IMPLEMENTED.
DO WE KNOW REPORTS OF HOW MUCH,
YOU KNOW, NO-KNOCK WARRANTS ARE
BEING USED, OF DIFFERENT
UTILIZATIONS OF USE OF FORCE OF
CHOKEHOLDS?
DO WE HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW THAT
REPORTING IS GOING?
>> WE HAD A TOPIC OF
TRANSPARAPHERNALIA CANNOT.
ACCOUNTABILITY.
IS THE DEPARTMENT DOING WHAT
EXTENSIVELY IT OUGHT TO BE DOING
IN TERMS OF, NUMBER ONE,
MONITORING AND COLLECTING DATA
AND INFORMATION THAT IS
DOCUMENTING POLICE PERFORMANCE.
POLICE PERFORMANCE NOT ONLY FOR
THE SAKE OF, YOU KNOW, POLICING
PRACTICE, BUT IN TERMS OF
FOLLOWING THE DEPARTMENT'S
POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS, AND TO
WHAT EXTENT, THEN, ARE THEY SIN
SYNTHESIZING THAT DATA AND
SHARING IT TO THE GENERAL
PUBLIC, THE NEWS MEDIA IN A WAY
THAT PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF HOW
THEY ARE DOING?
SO THAT'S WHERE WE LOOKED AT THE
ISSUE.
AGAIN, WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT
WHETHER OFFICER X, YOU KNOW,
WHEN HE OR SHE DID SOMETHING
THAT WAS AGAINST THE PROTOCOL,
WHETHER THE DEPARTMENT WAS
TAKING ACTION ON THAT, BUT WE,
AGAIN, LOOKED AT WHAT ARE THE
DEPARTMENT'S POLICIES WITH
REGARDS TO DATA COLLECTION AND
SYNTHESIS AND TRANSPARENCY.
ESSENTIALLY, WE FOUND A MIXED
BAG FOR THE MILWAUKEE POLICE
DEPARTMENT, BUT, AGAIN, IN THE
SIX MONTHS WE RESEARCHED THIS,
WE SAW PROGRESS.
IN ONE CASE, WHERE THEY NEED TO
REPORT ON HITS STOP-AND-FRISK
INCIDENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU
KNOW, I HAVE NO IDEA WHETHER
THEY WOULD HAVE DONE THAT ON
THEIR OWN, BUT THEY ACTUALLY,
THERE WAS A REPORTING PROVISION
INCLUDED IN A LEGAL SETTLEMENT
WITH THE ACLU HERE SO THAT THEY
ARE NOW REPORTING ON THAT.
SO FOR THE MOST PART, THERE'S
PRETTY GOOD ACCOUNTABILITY IN
TERMS OF DATA GATHERING AND
REPORTING.
WHERE WE FOUND AREAS OF
IMPROVEMENT IS IN TAKING THAT
DATA AND USING IT TO ACTUALLY
TRY TO CONVEY TO THE PUBLIC HOW
THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS DOING,
AND I WILL SAY TO YOU THAT WHILE
IN OUR REPORT WE CITED SOME
AREAS WHERE PROGRESS COULD BE
MADE, BEFOUND GREAT RE RECEPTIVITY
BY THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT
SAID, YEAH, WE DON'T WANT TO
HIDE ANYTHING, BUT COLLECT THE
DATA AND PUT IT OUT THERE IN A
WAY THAT PEOPLE HAVE APPROPRIATE
ACCESS AND IT IS RELATIVELY USER
FRIENDLY.
>> IS IT SURPRISING THAT THIS
DATA COLLECTION HAS BEEN LACKING
OR WAS LACKING, AND IS THERE
ACCOUNTABILITY IN TERMS OF
ACCURATE REPORTING, AND IF A
POLICE OFFICER DOES HAVE
MISCONDUCT, THAT ANOTHER OFFICER
OR ANOTHER AREA OF THE
DEPARTMENT CAN STEP IN AND NOT
RECEIVE ANY SORT OF RETALIATION?
>> SO TWO GOOD QUESTIONS.
I'LL TAKE THEM ONE AT A TIME.
IS IT SURPRISING?
NO.
I THINK YOU LOOK ACROSS ALL
LOCAL GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS, AND
I THINK YOU WILL FIND, YOU KNOW,
FOR -- NOT UNANIMOUSLY, BUT FOR
THE MOST PART, AMONG MANY OF
THEM DATA COLLECTION AND
REPORTING IS A HUGE CHALLENGE.
AS LOCAL GOVERNMENTS ACROSS THE
STATE HAVE BECOME INCREASINGLY
CHALLENGED FOR A VARIETY OF
FACTORS, AND I KNOW THAT'S NOT
THE TOPICS OF TODAY'S SHOW.
I'D BE HAPPY TO COME BACK AND
SPEAK FOR A HALF HOUR ON THAT
ONE, BUT AS THESE FINANCIAL
CHALLENGES INTENSIFIED, YOU
KNOW, THE DIRECT SERVICE
PROVISION IS THAT YOU WHAT YOU
FIGHT TOOTH AND NAIL TO KEEP,
BUT THE SORT OF EXTRAS OF HAVING
ANALYSTS AND DATA COLLECTORS AND
IT PEOPLE AND DATA VISUALIZATION
PROFESSIONALS, THOSE -- THAT'S
THE TYPE OF CAPACITY THAT MANY
LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DON'T HAVE,
AND THAT MANY DEPARTMENTS WITHIN
LOCAL GOVERNMENTS DON'T HAVE, SO
TO THE EXTENT THAT THE MILWAUKEE
POLICE DEPARTMENT COULD MAKE
IMPROVEMENTS IN THAT AREA, I --
I CAN'T TELL YOU, BUT I, YOU
KNOW, MY SENSE IS THAT IT IS NOT
NECESSARILY A QUESTION OF WILL.
PART OF IT IS A QUESTION OF, DO
THEY HAVE THE STAFF RESOURCES
AND CAPACITY AND EXPERTISE TO DO
THIS AND TO DO IT WELL?
SO THAT'S -- THAT'S THE ANSWER
TO THE FIRST QUESTION.
IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, THIS
QUESTION ABOUT WHISTLEBLOWING
AND, YOU KNOW, THE EXTENT TO
WHICH WE'RE FINDING, YOU KNOW,
THAT FELLOW OFFICERS, THAT THE
BLUE WALL DOES OR DOESN'T EXIST
WHEN IT COMES TO MILWAUKEE
POLICE DEPARTMENT AND OUR
OFFICERS WHO ARE SEEING THINGS
THAT SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING TO
THE EXTENT THAT THEY ARE
REPORTING THOSE, AND ARE THERE
PROPER CHANNELS?
YOU KNOW, MY HUMBLE OPINION IS
THAT THAT'S -- I THINK IT IS ONE
OF THE TOP TWO OR THREE AREAS OF
INCREASED FOCUS IN THE WAKE OF
THE GEORGE FLOYD INCIDENT THAT
IS NOW RECEIVING THE MOST
ATTENTION AND THE ATTENTION THAT
IT DOES DESERVE.
AGAIN, I CANNOT SPEAK TO WILL,
AND CANNOT SPEAK TO, HAS THIS
BEEN A PROBLEM OF OFFICERS NOT
WANTING TO RAT ON FELLOW
OFFICERS, BUT I DO THINK THAT
MANY DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE
COUNTRY DIDN'T HAVE THE PROPER
POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS AND WERE
NOT -- EVEN TO THE EXTENT THEY
DID, WERE NOT NECESSARILY
PROPERLY ENFORCING THEM TO SEND
THE MESSAGE THAT THIS HAS TO
HAPPEN, AND SO I THINK THAT WE
ARE -- THAT IS WHERE OUT OF THE
FLOYD INCIDENT, AND SO MUCH OF
THE EMPHASIS, OF COURSE, YOU
KNOW, WAS ON THE CHOKEHOLD
ISSUE, BUT THE FACT THAT THERE
WERE, YOU KNOW, A GROUP OF
OFFICERS THERE OBSERVING THIS, I
THINK, IS SOMETHING THAT ALSO
CAPTURED PEOPLE'S ATTENTION IN A
GOOD WAY, AND IT IS LEADING TO
SOME MEANINGFUL REFORM
DISCUSSION.
>> NOW, YOU'VE TOUCHED ON PUBLIC
PERCEPTION AND HOW, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S WHAT WE'RE KIND OF
SEEING AND HEARING BOTH IN MEDIA
AND SOCIAL MEDIA VERSUS THE
NITTY-GRITTY THINGS THAT ARE NOT
AS EASY TO FOLLOW ALONG WITH
BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY
DETAILS, BUT, SPECIFICALLY, THIS
REPORT DID NOT RELY HEAVILY ON
PROPOSALS FROM THE ADVOCATES OR
ACTIVISTS, AND SOME OF WHICH
THEY CALLED FOR, YOU MENTIONED
DEFUNDING, AND EVEN ABOLISHING
POLICE DEPARTMENTS, PUTTING THE
MONEY TOWARDS OTHER SERVICES.
WHY WAS THAT NOT NECESSARILY
CONSIDERED IN THAT LENS WITH
THIS REPORT, AND ARE THOSE JUST
TOO RADICAL?
ARE THEY JUST NOT EVEN REALLY ON
THE TABLE IN A PRACTICAL WAY?
>> SO UNDER THE BUCKET OF
REIMAGINING PUBLIC SAFETY, WE
DID TAKE A LOOK AT THIS
DEFUNDING POLICE ISSUE.
THE RAN THERE'S NOT -- THE
REASON THERE'S NOT A LOT OF
FACTS IN THE REPORT ON THAT
ISSUE IS BECAUSE THAT'S AN AREA
WHERE NOT MUCH HAS HAPPENED YET,
NUMBER ONE.
NUMBER TWO, I THINK THAT WE ARE
STILL STRUGGLING AS A COMMUNITY
IN MILWAUKEE, AS A STATE OF
WISCONSIN, AND NATIONALLY TO
REALLY TRY TO DEFINE WHAT
"DEFUNDING POLICE" MEANS.
ON ITS MOST BASIC LEVEL, OF
COURSE, IT MEANS, YOU KNOW,
TAKING AND DIVERTING SOME AMOUNT
OF POLICE DEPARTMENT RESOURCES
AND TAKING THOSE AWAY FROM THE
POLICE DEPARTMENT AND
REINVESTING THEM IN OTHER AREAS
THAT ARGUABLY MIGHT HAVE A
BETTER IMPACT ON REDUCING CRIME.
AREAS LIKE ANTI-POVERTY
MEASURES.
AREAS LIKE BEHAVIORAL HEALTH
CRISIS RESPONSE AND SO FORTH.
SO -- BUT AS YOU SAID, I MEAN,
THIS CAN EXTEND TO, YOU KNOW,
MUCH LARGER DEFUNDING.
I MEAN, HUGE CUTS IN POLICE, OR
IN SOME CASES, AS YOU MENTIONED,
ABOLISHING POLICE DEPARTMENTS
AND COMING UP WITH A NEW LAW
ENFORCEMENT SERVICE MODEL.
THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF
DISCUSSION.
WE RELIED MOST HEAVILY ON
REPORTS THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN
ISSUED, AND SO AS OF MID-SUMMER,
AND SO, AGAIN, THERE'S BEEN MORE
WORK DONE ON THAT SINCE THEN,
BUT WE JUST DIDN'T HAVE ACCESS
TO IT.
FOR THE MOST PART, ON THE
DEFUNDING QUESTION IN MILWAUKEE,
AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, IT IS
INTERESTING.
SO ON THE ONE HAND, THE
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT,
IT'S SWORN STRENGTH SHRANK BY
120 OFFERS AS A RESULT OF THE
2021 BUDGET IN A FORCE OF 1800,
SO CERTAINLY NOT AN
INSIGNIFICANT CUT IN POLICE
OFFICERS.
THE PROBLEM IS FROM A DEFUNDING
STANDPOINT IS THAT THE SAVINGS
GENERATED FOR MAKING THE CUTS
ALL HAD TO BE POURED RIGHT BACK
INTO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TO
SUSTAIN THE COMPENSATION LEVELS
AND ACCOUNT FOR INCREASES IN
PENSION AND HEALTHCARE AND
SALARY COSTS FOR THOSE OFFICERS
WHO REMAINED ON THE FORCE.
WHILE THERE WAS A REDUCTION IN
POLICE SWORN STRENGTH, WHICH
SOME THINK IS A GOOD THING
REGARDLESS OF DOLLAR SAVINGS,
OTHERS THINK IS THE LAST THING
YOU WANT TO DO, BUT THE SAVINGS
THAT WERE GENERATED FROM THAT
HAD TO STAY WITH THE POLICE
DEPARTMENT JUST TO KEEP THINGS
WHERE THEY WERE AFTER THE LOSS
OF THE 120 POSITIONS SO IT DID
NOT, FOR THE MOST PART, FREE UP
MONEYS TO REINVEST.
DURING THE CITY'S BUDGET DEBATE
LAST FALL, THERE WAS SOME
DISCUSSION ABOUT SOME
REINVESTMENT INITIATIVES, AN
EXTRA $300,000, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS
PUT INTO CRISIS RESPONSE TEAMS,
BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THE CITY
WAS FACING SUCH STARK FINANCIAL
CHALLENGES OVERALL THAT THE
CONVERSATION, AS BADLY AS PEOPLE
WANTED TO HAVE IT, IT REALLY DID
NOT MATERIALIZE.
>> YOU JUST MENTIONED THE CRISIS
RESPONSE TEAMS, AND IT DOES GET
DETAILED A BIT IN YOUR REPORT SO
OFFICERS RECEIVE ONLY 40 HOURS
OF CRISIS INTERVENTION TRAINING,
WHICH I WAS PRETTY SURPRISED TO
READ THAT FIGURE.
YOU SAID THERE ARE SOME THAT DO
RECEIVE MORE SPECIALIZED
TRAINING, BUT, AGAIN, THERE'S
JUST A LACK OF FUNDING FOR THIS,
BUT THIS HAS ALSO BEEN A HUGE
EMPHASIS AS A LOT OF CALLS DO
NOT NECESSARILY NEED AN ARMED
PRESENCE IN ORDER TO RESPOND.
IS THERE ANY MOVEMENT ON
RETHINKING EMERGENCY RESPONSES
TO THESE SITUATIONS?
>> SO WE FOUND THAT THAT'S ONE
OF THE FOREMOST AREAS THAT
DISCUSSIONS NEED TO INTENSIFY TO
GENERATE FURTHER PROGRESS IN
THAT AREA.
MIND YOU, YOU KNOW, THERE'S
ALREADY SOME REAL GOOD EXAMPLES
OF CRISIS RESPONSE, INGENUITY IN
MILWAUKEE, THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE
UNAWARE OF.
MILWAUKEE COUNTY DOES BEHAVIORAL
HEALTH SERVICES FOR THE CITY OF
MILWAUKEE AND OTHER
MUNICIPALITIES IN MILWAUKEE
COUNTY.
THE MILWAUKEE COUNTY BEHAVIORAL
HEALTH DIVISION HAS BEEN RUNNING
MOBILE CRISIS TEAMS FOR SEVERAL
YEARS.
THESE ARE TEAMS OF TRAINED
CLINICIANS WHO ARE MOBILE, AS
THE TERM SUGGESTS, AND WHEN
INCIDENTS OCCUR IN THE COMMUNITY
FOR FOLKS IN MENTAL HEALTH
CRISIS, THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY
TO SEND THESE TEAMS OF
CLINICIANS TO TRY TO HANDLE THE
ISSUE OPPOSED TO CALLING LAW
ENFORCEMENT.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THOSE MOBILE
CRISIS TEAMS TEAMS AREN'T WELL
COORDINATED WITH -- THEY ARE NOT
DISPATCHED BY THE 911 SYSTEM.
THEY ARE NOT, YOU KNOW,
COORDINATED DIRECTLY WITH
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT
RESPONSE.
AT THE SAME TIME, WHERE VHD AND
MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT
TEAMED UP IS ON VERY SPECIFIC
CRISIS ASSESSMENT RESPONSE
TEAMS, CALLED CART, AND TEAMS
THAT INVOLVE A TRAINED POLICE
OFFICER AND A TRAINED CLINICIAN,
AND SO THERE ARE THREE TEAMS
OPERATING THE CITY IN MILWAUKEE.
THEY ARE ABLE TO HANDLE A SUBSET
OF THE CALLS THAT COME IN TO
DISPATCHERS THAT SUGGEST THAT IT
IS A BEHAVIOR HEALTH CRISIS
ISSUE, BUT THEY ARE NOT 24/7,
AND THEY CAN ONLY RESPOND TO A
SUBSET.
THOSE ARE CLEARLY AREAS THAT
COULD AND SHOULD BE BUILT UPON,
AND ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT THAT
WE MAKE IN THIS REPORT IS BOTH
THE COUNTY AND THE CITY MEAN
WELL IN THIS REGARD, BUT BOTH
STILL TEND TO OPERATE IN SILOS
AND DO NOT NECESSARILY
EFFECTIVELY COORDINATE HOW THEY
ARE GOING TO TACKLE THE ISSUE.
WE HAVE THE MILWAUKEE COMMON
COUNCIL THAT IS FORMING A
SPECIAL TASK FORCE TO LOOK AT
HOW TO DIVERT CERTAIN CALLS AWAY
FROM MPD AND TO MORE APPROPRIATE
RESPONDERSERS, AND THEY TALK VERY
SPECIFICALLY ABOUT LOOKING TO DO
THAT IN THE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS
AREA, BUT THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE
DOES NOT DO BEHAVIOR HEALTH, AND
SO, YEAH, THE COUNTY HAS A SEAT
ON THE TASK FORCE, BUT IT IS NOT
A COUNTY INITIATIVE, AND AT THE
SAME TIME, THE COUNTY LOOKED AT
WAYS TO EXPAND ACTIVITIES, BUT
HAS NOT NECESSARILY BROUGHT MPD
TO THE TABLE.
SO THAT IS CLEARLY AN AREA FOR
ENHANCED COORDINATION.
>> NOW, YOU CHOSE SPECIFIC
CITIES THAT ARE COMPARABLE TO
MILWAUKEE TO COMPARE TO, AND I'M
SURE IT IS DIFFICULT BECAUSE NO
CITY IS APPLES TO APPLES.
THERE'S ALSO STATE LAW, LOCAL
LAWS THAT ARE JUST SO DIFFERENT
AND INTERPLAY THE DIFFERENTLY,
BUT OF THE CITIES YOU DID
COMPARE MILWAUKEE TO, HOW DID
MILWAUKEE STACK UP TO WHAT STOOD
OUT TO YOU?
>> YOU KNOW, MILWAUKEE STACKED
UP PRETTY WELL.
I THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF COME
COMPARING AMONG THE CITIES LIKE
BALTIMORE, MINNEAPOLIS, KANSAS
CITY, TUCSON.
ONE AREA THAT STOOD OUT WAS IN
THE REVIEW OF CRITICAL
INCIDENTS.
WE FOUND THAT, I BELIEVE, EACH
OF THE CITIES THAT WE LOOKED AT
HAD SOME SUBSTANTIAL CIVILIAN
PARTICIPATION IN TERMS OF THE
COMMITTEES OR GROUPS OF
INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE CHARGED
WITH REVIEWING CERTAIN
INCIDENTS, CRITICAL INCIDENTS,
WHEREAS IN THE CITY OF
MILWAUKEE, FOR MPD, THERE ARE
CERTAINLY COMMITTEES COMMITTEES CONSISTING
OF MPD PERSONNEL, BUT THERE IS
NOT CIVILIAN PARTICIPATION ON
THE COMMITTEES SO WE BROUGHT
THIS TO THE MILWAUKEE POLICE
DEPARTMENT'S ATTENTION, AND I
THINK THEY ARE NOW SERIOUSLY
LOOKING AT HOW TO TRY TO PROVIDE
FOR SOME CIVILIAN INVOLVEMENT TO
ENSURE THAT THESE CRITICAL
INCIDENTS ARE REVIEWED, NOT ONLY
BY MEMBERS OF THE DEPARTMENT,
ITSELF, BUT ALSO EXTERNAL
MEMBERS.
I THINK THAT'S AN AREA WE ARE --
THAT WE POINTED OUT.
WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION IS
ANOTHER AREA WHERE WHEN LOOKING
AT THE OTHER CITIES, WE SAW MUCH
MORE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE IN THEIR
POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS OUTLINING
THE SPECIFIC PROTECTIONS THAT
WHISTLE BLOWERS WOULD RECEIVE.
IN MILWAUKEE, THERE'S VERBAGE IN
THE POLICIES AND PROTOCOLS
SAYING WHISTLEBLOWERS ARE
PROTECTED, BUT NOT IN MUCH
DETAIL.
THAT IS ANOTHER ONE NOTED IN THE
REPORT, BROUGHT IT TO THE
ATTENTION OF THE LEADERSHIP WITH
THE MILWAUKEE POLICE DEPARTMENT,
AND AS WE SPEAK, THEY ARE
CONSIDERING WAYS TO STRENGTHEN
THOSE POLICIES AND PROCEDURES
AND HOPE TO HAVE REVISED
POLICIES BEFORE THE FIRE AND
POLICE COMMISSION IN THE NOT TOO
DISTANT FUTURE.
>> NOW, NOT ONLY OF THESE CITIES
THAT YOU CLOSELY EXAMINE, BUT OF
ANY CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY,
HAVE WE SEEN A REAL SUBSTANTIAL
REFORM PUT IN PLACE, SUCH AS
DRASTIC DEFUNDING, JUST AN
EXAMPLE, AND DO WE KNOW THE
OUTCOME?
IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S HESITATION
TO TAKE A BIG STEP INTO THE
WATER WHEN THE CONSEQUENCE COULD
BE PUBLIC SAFETY IS SACRIFICED.
>> YEAH.
SO, AGAIN, THIS ONE HAS RECEIVED
SO MUCH ATTENTION AND HAS BECOME
VERY POLITICAL AND IDEOLOGICAL,
AND THAT'S NOT SURPRISING.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THE MOST
INTERESTING ONE TO LOOK AT, OF
COURSE, IS MINNEAPOLIS, WHERE
THE FLOYD INCIDENT OCCURRED, AND
AS YOUR VIEWERS MAY BE AWARE, I
MEAN, THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK IN
THE WEEKS AFTER THAT INCIDENT
ABOUT DOING SOME REAL RADICAL
REFORM INCLUDING POTENTIALLY
ABOLISHING THE POLICE
DEPARTMENT.
IT TURNED OUT THAT THERE WAS A
DIVERSION OF ABOUT $8 MILLION
FROM THE MINNEAPOLIS POLICE
DEPARTMENT BUDGET TO OTHER
AREAS, ANTIPOVERTY, CRISIS,
ECT., SO, YOU KNOW, $8 MILLION
SOUNDS LIKE A LOT OF MONEY, BUT
IT WAS REALLY JUST A FRACTION OF
WHAT MANY REFORMERS WERE
PROPOSING IN THE IMMEDIATE WAKE
OF FLOYD INCIDENT.
AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE POLICE
BUDGET, I DON'T HAVE THE NUMBER
OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD, BUT MY
GUESS IS IT IS A POLICE BUDGET
OF $200 MILLION, AND SO, YEAH, A
CUT, BUT NOT A HUGE CUT, AND SO
THE OTHER DEPARTMENTS WE LOOKED
AT, AGAIN, A LOT OF DISCUSSION,
AND I THINK MORE, YOU KNOW,
POTENTIALLY SOME FOOD FOR
THOUGHT FROM MILWAUKEE.
SOME VERY SPECIFIC STAKEHOLDER
TASK FORCES FORMED TO
SPECIFICALLY ANALYZE THAT THAT.
IN SOME OF THE OTHER CITIES,
WHICH WE HAVE NOT DONE HERE YET,
BUT IN TERMS OF ACTION, IN THE
2021 BUDGET PROCESS, WE DID NOT
SEE THAT THERE WERE ANY MATERIAL
STEPS BEING TAKEN.
YOU KNOW, I THINK ANOTHER JUST
FACTOR THAT HAS COME INTO PLAY
HERE IS SUDDENLY LOCAL
GOVERNMENTS HAVE ACCESS TO
AMERICAN RELIEF PLAN DOLLARS.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE IMMEDIATE
POINTS THAT WE MADE LAST SUMMER
WHEN THERE WERE CALLS TO DEFUND
THE THANK YOU POLICE DEPARTMENT
WAS, LOOK, THIS IS NOT EVEN A
MATTER OF IDEOLOGY.
GIVEN WHAT THE CITY'S BUDGET
SITUATION IS LOOKING LIKE,
THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE MUCH
OTHER CHOICE THAN TO
SIGNIFICANTLY CUT THE MILWAUKEE
POLICE DEPARTMENT BUDGET.
WELL, AS IT TURNED OUT, REVENUE
HITS WERE NOT AS GREAT, THANK
GOODNESS, AS WE HAD ANTICIPATED,
AND THE AVAILABILITY OF FEDERAL
RELIEF DOLLARS, BOTH IN 2020 AND
NOW THE LATEST PACKAGE THAT WAS
JUST ADOPTED IN MARCH, MEANS
THAT FROM A BUDGETARY
PERSPECTIVE, AS LEAST, THERE'S
NOT AS MUCH PRESSURE TO CUT
POLICE BUDGET.
NOW I THINK IT TRANSFERS BACK TO
THE IDEOLOGICAL AND WHAT'S THE
BEST WAY TO INVEST IN PUBLIC
SAFETY SET OF ISSUES AS OPPOSED
TO THE FISCAL NECESSARY CITY
ISSUES.
>> NOW, SPEAKING OF THE MOVING
TARGET ISSUE, YOU'RE ANALYSIS,
BY AND LARGE, WRAPPED UP AROUND
APRIL, AND EVEN SINCE THEN,
THERE HAS STILL BEEN MOVEMENT ON
LAW AND LEGISLATION, PROPOSALS
ON REFORMS, SOME OF WHICH
INCLUDE 18 RECOMMENDATIONS FROM
THE SPEAKER'S TASK FORCE OWN
RACIAL DISPARITIES, A BIPARTISAN
LED GROUP, WHICH WAS FORMED
AFTER JACOB BLAKE WAS SHOT BY A
KENOSHA POLICE OFFICER.
THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS ARE NOW
CRAFTED INTO LEGISLATION AND
BEING DISCUSSED AND DEBATED IN
THE CAPITOL.
ADDITIONALLY, MILWAUKEE
REPRESENTATIVE, DAVID BOWEN,
JUST LAST WEEK AND OTHER
DEMOCRATS RELEASED THEIR OWN
PROPOSALS FOR REFORM, DUBBING
THEM "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ," SAYING
THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE
TASK FORCE DON'T GO FAR ENOUGH.
HOW DO THESE PROPOSALS COMPARE
TO SOME OF THE ANALYSIS THAT YOU
FOUND IN YOUR REPORT?
>> SO I'LL BE THE FIRST TO ADMIT
THAT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE NOT
THOROUGHLY ANALYZED ALL OF THE
PROPOSALS SO I -- BUT I CAN
SPEAK IN GENERAL TERMS.
IN TERMS OF THE SPEAKER'S TASK
FORCE, AND THEN OUT OF THOSE, I
THINK, 18 RECOMMENDATIONS CAME,
I BELIEVE, IT WAS SEVEN SPECIFIC
LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS, AND,
AGAIN, WHILE WE HAVE NOT DONE
THIS ANALYSIS, IT IS VERY
IMPORTANT TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN
STATEWIDE AND CITY OF MILWAUKEE.
I KNOW CITY OF MILWAUKEE FOLKS I
SPOKE TO FELT LIKE THE SEVEN
BILLS REALLY WOULD NOT IMPACT
MILWAUKEE VERY MUCH BECAUSE THEY
WERE ALREADY IN LINE WITH THOSE
REQUIREMENTS, THAT THOSE WOULD
HAVE A MUCH GREATER IMPACT ON
OTHER POLICE DEPARTMENTS ACROSS
THE STATE.
AND I THINK THE MORE RECENT SET
PUT OUT BY REPRESENTATIVE BOWEN
AND OTHERS, AGAIN, I THINK SOME
OF THOSE WOULD CERTAINLY MOVE
THE NEEDLE ON MPD, BUT I THINK
THERE ARE OTHERS OF THOSE MORE
RELEVANT TO OTHER POLICE
DEPARTMENTS.
>> SO ONE OF THE PIECES OF
RESEARCH THAT YOU INCLUDED IN
YOUR ANALYSIS FOR YOUR REPORT
WAS FROM 2015 FOLLOWING MICHAEL
BROWN'S DEATH.
THE BLACK LIVES MATTER MOVEMENT
BEGAN BEFORE GEORGE FLOYD WAS
MURDERED, AND MILWAUKEE AND
OTHER PLACES HAVE BEEN THE
SUBJECT OF POLICE REFORM DEBATES
FOR YEARS AS YOU HAVE ALREADY
MENTIONED.
SO WHY CAN'T THE NEEDLE MOVE ON
SOME OF THESE THINGS?
WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO SEE
MEANINGFUL REFORM?
IS IT BECAUSE MEANINGFUL REFORM
MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS FOR
DIFFERENT PEOPLE?
>> WELL, SO FIRST OF ALL, I
WOULD SAY THAT, AGAIN, OUR
ASSESSMENT IS THAT MEANINGFUL
REFORM HAS HAPPENED IN MILWAUKEE
AND IS IN THE PROCESS OF
HAPPENING, WHICH IS A VERY
SUBJECTIVE STATEMENT.
I MEAN, HOW DO YOU DEFINE
"MEANINGFUL ," SO I DON'T THINK
THERE'S ANY QUESTION THERE'S
FOLKS IN THE COMMUNITY THAT SAY
WE HAVE TAKEN THE BALL FROM THE
20 YARD LINE TO THE 40 WITH A
LONG WAY TO GO TO THE END ZONE.
OTHERS THINK WE DID A LOT.
IT IS SAFE TO SAY THAT ACTION
HAS BEEN TAKEN.
YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THIS IS A TOPIC
FOR MILWAUKEE, THIS PREDATED
FLOYD, PREDATED BROWN.
WE HAD DANTE HAMILTON INCIDENT
THAT REALLY SHINED A SPOTLIGHT
ON THIS ISSUE OF HOW ARE WE
RESPONDING TO PEOPLE IN CRISIS
AND WHY ARE UNTRAINED LAW
ENFORCEMENT FOLKS, YOU KNOW,
RESPONDING TO THESE CALLS, AND
THAT DID PRECIPITATE THE
CREATION OF THE CART TEAMS AND
MOBILE CRISIS RESPONSE TEAMS AND
SO ON, BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT
IS, YOU KNOW, REACHING CONSENSUS
ON AN ISSUE LIKE THIS,
PARTICULARLY IN TODAY'S
SUPERCHARGED PARTISAN POLITICAL
WORLD IS JUST THAT MUCH MORE
DIFFICULT, AND, YOU KNOW, WE SEE
WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THE
DEFUNDING ISSUE, AND, AGAIN, AS
I SAID, I MEAN, PART OF THE
PROBLEM IS THAT DEFUNDING POLICE
MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO
DIFFERENT PEOPLE, AND, TO ME, AS
YOU LOOK AT THE SPECTRUM OF
DEFUNDING, MAYBE REASONABLE
PEOPLE COULD AGREE ON CERTAIN
VERY IMPORTANT ELEMENTS OF THAT,
MAYBE NOT AGREEING ON OTHERS,
BUT WE DON'T TRY TO GET TO THAT
POINT, BUT WE JUST LIKE TO FIGHT
WITH EACH OTHER.
I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN REAL
EFFORTS MADE IN MILWAUKEE TO
BRING IN COMMUNITY STAKE
HOLDERS, YOU KNOW, SOME OF IT
WAS REQUIRED BY LEGAL
SETTLEMENTS AND OTHER THINGS,
BUT REGARDLESS OF MOTIVATION,
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE HAD A
COLLABORATIVE STAKEHOLDERS GROUP
WORKING ON THESE ISSUES, THAT
HAVE BEEN ENGAGED WITH THE
MAYOR'S OFFICE, AND HAVE BEEN
ENGAGED WITH THE COMMON COUNCIL,
AND THAT'S WHAT IT IS GOING TO
TAKE.
IT HAS TO INVOLVE POLICE
DEPARTMENT REPRESENTATIVES AS
WELL, AND I THINK THAT'S REALLY
SOMETHING WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE
PAST SEVERAL MONTHS, IS THAT
THERE APPEARS TO BE A
WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN TO THE
COMMUNITY.
NOW, AGAIN, WHERE THAT
WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN ACTUALLY
MEANS THAT WE CONTINUE TO MOVE
THE BALL FORWARD IN TERMS OF
CRITICAL REVIEW OF OUR POLICIES
AND PROTOCOLS AND PERHAPS EVEN
MORE IMPORTANT, THAT WE CONTINUE
TO MOVE FORWARD ON HOW THESE ARE
BEING ENFORCED, THAT IS STILL
ADMITTEDLY A QUESTION MARK, BUT
THE BEGINNINGS OF REALLY SEEING
A COMMUNITY-DRIVEN EFFORT AT
LEAST IN MILWAUKEE.
WE DO SEE SOME EVIDENCE THAT
THAT IS BEGINNING TO OCCUR.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WELL, WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
I'M SURE WE COULD CONTINUE THIS
DISCUSSION ALL DAY, ALL WEEK,
ALL YEAR, AND I'M SURE WE'LL
TOUCH BASE WITH YOU AGAIN IN THE
FUTURE.
ROB HENKEN OF THE WISCONSIN
POLICY FORUM, THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
ME.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG, AND THANK YOU
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON ""NOON
WEDNESDAY."