>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
PBS WISCONSIN, AND TODAY IS MAY
5.
THE TERM "VACCINE PASSPORTS" HAS
BEEN PASSED AROUND SINCE PEOPLE
STARTED GETTING THEIR COVID-19
SHOTS, BUT THAT TERM AND
PASSPORTS MEAN DIFFERENT THINGS
DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ASK THE
DEFINITION OF.
TODAY, TWO EXPERTS ARE OFFERING
THEIR PERSPECTIVES FROM TWO
DIFFERENT FIELDS.
JOSH MICHAUD, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR
FOR GLOBAL HEALTH POLICY FROM
THE KAISER FAMILY FOUNDATION,
AND LAURA ALBERT, A PROFESSOR
AND RESEARCHER OF INDUSTRIAL AND
SYSTEMS ENGINEERING FROM
UW-MADISON.
THANK YOU, BOTH, SO MUCH FOR
BEING HERE TODAY.
>> THANK YOU.
>> GLAD TO BE HERE.
>> JOSH, I WANT TO START WITH
YOU.
IS A VACCINE PASSPORT LITERALLY
A PASSPORT, AND ARE THERE OTHER
DEFINITIONS AND CONTEXTS THAT WE
SHOULD UNDERSTAND THIS TERM TO
MEAN?
>> SURE.
IT IS UNFORTUNATE THE TERM
"VACCINE TOSS PASSPORT" IS THE ONE
MOSTLY USED IN THE PUBLIC
CONVERSATION AROUND THIS IDEA
BECAUSE IT BRINGS TO MIND
SOMETHING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE
GOVERNMENT ISSUES AND IS A
REQUIREMENT FOR TRAVEL
INTERNATIONALLY WHEN, IN FACT,
WHAT THE CONCEPT THAT'S BEING
DISCUSSED HERE COVERS A LOT MORE
TERRITORY THAN THAT AND IS NOT
RESTRICTED BY THOSE DEFINITIONS,
AND SO WHAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE
MEAN BY PASSPORT IS BROKEN INTO
TWO MAIN CATEGORIES.
ONE IS SORT OF THIS IDEA THAT
THERE IS SOME KIND OF
CERTIFICATION OR A PASS THAT
PEOPLE CAN GET TO SHOW THEY HAVE
BEEN VACCINATED, WHICH ALLOWS
THEM TO TRAVEL MORE EASILY FROM
ONE COUNTRY TO ANOTHER, AND SO
INSTEAD OF RIGHT NOW, MUCH OF
THE INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL AROUND
REQUIRES TESTING AND PEOPLE TO
BE PROVE THEY ARE NEGATIVE FOR
COVID TO ARRIVE INTERNATIONALLY.
A PASSPORT, YOU KNOW, AS THIS
SIGN OF CERTIFICATION OF PRIOR
VACCINATION THAT CAN SERVE AS A
WAY TO EASE THAT PROCESS SO IF
YOU CAN SHOW YOU HAVE BEEN
VACCINATEED, YOU CAN ARRIVE, AND
SOME COUNTRIES ARE STARTING TO
DO THIS.
WE CAN TALK MORE ABOUT THAT.
ANOTHER WAY THIS IDEA OF A
CERTIFICATION OR PASSPORT CAN BE
USED IN SOME PLACES ALREADY
USING IT THIS WAY IS AS A WAY TO
ACCESS CERTAIN ACTIVITIES OR
LOCATIONS.
YOU NEED TO SHOW YOU'VE BEEN
VACCINATED IN ORDER TO ACCESS
THOSE ACTIVITIES OR LOCATIONS.
YOU KNOW, ON A DOMESTIC SORT OF
POLICY FRONT, THESE
CERTIFICATIONS CAN BE USED TO
DEMONSTRATE THAT PEOPLE IN A
CERTAIN LOCATION OR
PARTICIPATING CERTAIN ACTIVITIES
HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, AND THAT'S
JUST A SAFETY PRECAUTION.
NOW, THE EXTENT TO WHICH THESE
MAY BE REQUIRED OR MANDATED OR
ANYTHING LIKE THAT IS A WHOLE
SEPARATE SET OF QUESTIONS, AND,
ALSO, THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF
TECHNICAL QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW
YOU ACTUALLY OBTAIN ONE OF
THESE, PROVE THEM, AND HOW THEY
ARE TRUSTED AMONG DIFFERENT
ENTITIES OUT THERE, BUT, REALLY,
THE IDEA HERE WE'RE TALKING
ABOUT IS SOME KIND OF
CERTIFICATION OR PASS TO SHOW
YOU HAVE BEEN VACCINATED AND CAN
GO INTO DIFFERENT PLACES.
>> AND, LAURA, YOU REFER TO THIS
BROAD TERM AS MORE OF A
CREDENTIAL, AND PART OF YOUR
WORK IS MAKING PUBLIC SYSTEMS
SAFER, MORE EFFICIENT, EVEN
SPECIFICALLY IN HEALTH
EMERGENCIES AND DISASTER
RESPONSE, SO CAN YOU TELL US A
LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU AS AN
ENGINEER APPROACH THIS TOPIC OF
PASSPORTS OR CREDENTIALS?
>> RIGHT.
WE HAVE A GLOBAL HEALTH CRISIS
RIGHT NOW, AND THE POINT IS TO
REDUCE AN MANAGE THE RISK, AND
VACCINATION IS THE BEST TOOL
THAT WE HAVE SO FAR.
THE FACT THAT WE'RE DISCUSSING
WHAT A VACCINE PASSPORT IS, AND
I AGREE, IS A CREDENTIAL, IT IS
KIND OF A GOOD PROBLEM TO HAVE
BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE NEWLY
EFFECTIVE VACCINES.
IN TERMS OF MANAGING THE RISK,
INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL'S ONE OF
THE MAIN REASONS FOR THIS, AND
THE HAVING THE CERTIFICATION IS
A SEPARATE ISSUE FOR HOW THEY
COULD BE USED.
THEY OBVIOUSLY GO TOGETHER.
HAVING THIS CREDENTIAL REALLY
HELPS US UNDERSTAND WHO HAS BEEN
VACCINATED AND WHO HASN'T.
IT IS A GOOD POINT THAT IT IS
NOT NECESSARILY ISSUED BY THE
GOVERNMENT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER
CREDENTIALS THAT WE USE, SUCH AS
DRIVER'S LICENSES THAT HELP WITH
THIS, AND IT IS A CREDENTIAL WE
SHOW, AND ONCE YOU HAVE A DRRLS,
YOU
DRRLS -- DRIVER'S LICENSE, YOU
CAN SHOW IT IN A NUMBER OF
CONTEXTS, MANY OF WHICH DO NOT
HAVE TO DO WITH DRIVING.
WE HAVE TO SHOW AN ID WHEN WE GO
TO THE AIRPORT, AND AN EXAMPLE
OF A CREDENTIAL AT THE AIRPORT
IS THE REAL ID OF HAVING THIS
ID, THAT'S KIND OF A FEDERAL ID
IN THE SENSE THAT INDIVIDUAL
STATES ISSUE DRIVER'S LICENSES,
BUT THERE'S THIS COMMON
CREDENTIAL SO WE CAN MORE
ACCURATELY VERIFY WHO IS FLYING,
AND THAT'S KIND OF THE IDEA HERE
WITH THE VACCINE PASSPORT.
THOSE LITTLE PAPER CARDS GIVEN
ARE FOR US TO USE, AND THEY DO
NOT PROVIDE A LOT OF
TRUSTWORTHINESS IN THAT
CREDENTIAL.
THEY ARE EASILY FORGED.
LIKEWISE, THE COVID TESTS ARE
VERY EASILY FORGED.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT, YOU KNOW, THE
ABILITY TO REDUCE RISK, YOU
KNOW, THESE CREDENTIALS THAT ARE
NOT WORTH NEARLY AS MUCH AND
EASILY FORGED ARE OF A CONCERN
IN TERMS OF CONTROLLING THE
SPREAD OF THE DISEASE.
THAT'S WHERE THE VACCINE
PASSPORTS, SO TO SPEAK, CAN FIT
IN.
>> AND, JOSH, SOME ARE SAYING
THAT THESE VACCINE PASSPORTS
BRING UP ISSUES OF PRIVACY AND
EQUITY, BUT VACCINE REQUIREMENTS
HAVE ALREADY EXISTED PRIOR TO
COVID-19.
WHAT ARE OTHER EXAMPLES OF
VACCINE REQUIREMENTS, AND DOES
THE COVID-19 VACCINE BE LOOKED
AT DIFFERENTLY?
>> WELL, CERTAINLY, WE ARE ALL
FAMILIAR WITH THE REQUIREMENTS
AROUND CHILDHOOD VACCINATIONS
RELATED TO ENTERING SCHOOLS, AND
THERE ARE CERTAINLY EXAMPLES IN
BASICALLY EVERY STATE AND
COUNTRY RELATED TO VACCINES
REQUIRED FOR CERTAIN JOBS,
PARTICULARLY IN THE HEALTHCARE
SECTOR, YOU KNOW, WORKING IN THE
HOSPITAL OR CLINIC OR, YOU KNOW,
DENTIST OFFICE, THERE'S CERTAIN
REQUIREMENTS FOR VACCINATIONS
THAT EMPLOYEES ARE REQUIRED TO
GET.
SO THERE'S -- WE KNOW THAT WHEN
IT IS AN ISSUE OF PUBLIC SAFETY
THAT THERE IS A LEGITIMATE AND
LEGAL, YOU KNOW, CONSTRUCT FOR
STATES TO REQUIRE VACCINATIONS
FOR CERTAIN ACTIVITIES.
TO DATE, YOU KNOW, THE DEBATE
ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT COVID-19
WOULD FIT IN TO THAT FRAMEWORK
IS STILL AN ACTIVE ONE, AND
ALREADY WE'VE SEEN THAT CERTAIN
EMPLOYERS ARE MOVING TOWARDS
REQUIRING COVID-19 VACCINATIONS
FOR THE EMPLOYEES.
THERE'S A COUPLE OF HOSPITAL
SYSTEMS, YOU KNOW, NURSING HOME
STAFF REQUIRING STAFF TO GET
VACCINATED, FOR EXAMPLE.
NOW WE'RE SEEING UNIVERSITIES
SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN
STUDENTS COME BACK IN THE FALL,
THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SHOW
THEY HAVE BEEN VACCINATED.
WE HAVE NOT YET SEEN IS SAY AT A
STATE LEVEL OR KIND OF MANDATE
THAT PEOPLE GET VACCINATED.
ALTHOUGH, THERE'S BEEN
DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT.
IT DOES SEEM LIKE THERE'S AN
INCREASING INTEREST AND
LIKELIHOOD THAT MANY EMPLOYERS
AND PRIVATE ENTITIES ARE GOING
TO REQUIRE VACCINATIONS.
SO WHEN THAT REQUIREMENT COMES
THROUGH, THE PASSPORT OR THIS
CERTIFICATION IS A MORE
TRUSTWORTHY WAY TO SHOW THAT
PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VACCINATED.
TO DATE, WE DON'T HAVE, YOU
KNOW, THIS PASSPORT OR PASS THAT
HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, VETTED FOR
USE IN THE UNITED STATES, BUT
LOTS OF DIFFERENT ORGANIZATIONS
ARE WORKING ON SUCH A PASS, AND,
EVENTUALLY, I WOULD IMAGINE THAT
WE GET TO THE POINT WHERE THIS
PASS WOULD BE USEFUL IN ALL OF
THOSE DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES,
WHICH I SAID WHERE WE'VE SEEN
VACCINATIONS BE REQUIRED.
NOW, THERE'S A LIMIT TO THAT,
AND THERE'S SOME DISCUSSION
ABOUT VACCINATION -- PEOPLE
HAVING TO SHOW THAT THEY HAVE
BEEN VACCINATED IN ORDER TO
ENTER RESTAURANTS OR JOIN NORMAL
SOCIAL ACTIVITIES, YOU KNOW,
THERE'S GOING TO BE A LIMIT TO,
YOU KNOW, WHAT IS REQUIRED IN
DIFFERENT LOCATIONS, BUT I DON'T
THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET TO
THE POINT WHERE YOU'RE GOING TO
NEED TO SHOW THIS KIND OF
VACCINATION CERTIFICATE TO
ACCESS SORT OF EVERYDAY
ACTIVITIES, BUT THERE WILL BE
EMPLOYERS, LOCATIONS, AND
ACTIVITIES THAT MIGHT NEED IT.
>> AND JOSH SPOKE TO THESE
ORGANIZATIONS WORKING TOGETHER
ON THIS PASSPORT, LAURA, THERE
IS A CONSORTIUM OF ORGANIZATIONS
FROM TECH AND MEDICAL COMPANIES.
IT INCLUDES WISCONSIN BASED
EPIC, MAYO, MAYO HEALTH, AND
EVEN MICROSOFT.
IT IS CALLED THE VACCINATION
CREDENTIAL INITIATIVE.
COULD AN ALLIANCE LIKE THIS HELP
REDUCE THIS PATCHWORK OF
DIFFERENT CREDENTIALING SYSTEMS
AND LOCALLY OR GLOBALLY HELP
THEM RECOGNIZE AND LEGITIMIZE
EACH OTHER?
>> DEFINITELY.
AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE THIS
DRIVEN BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND
GETTING A FEW DIFFERENT
COMPANIES INVOLVED CAN HELP WITH
EQUITY ISSUES.
YOU MENTIONED THE PATCHWORK
APPROACH, AND THAT'S REALLY
IMPORTANT.
WE WANT A CREDENTIAL THAT'S
TRUSTWORTHY.
WE HAVE BOTH SPOKE ABOUT THAT,
BUT WE ALSO WANT THIS TO BE
EFFICIENT.
WE DON'T WANT A PATCHWORK
APPROACH.
IF YOU CAN JUST IMAGINE A
UNIVERSITY CHECKING TO SEE WHO
HAS BEEN VACCINATED, THEY HAVE
STUDENTS FROM, YOU KNOW,
POTENTIALLY ALL 50 STATES PLUS
HUNDREDS OF INTERNATIONAL
COUNTRIES.
THEY COULD HAVE BEEN VACCINATED
IN MANY DIFFERENT PLACES.
THE LOGISTICS OF CHECKING ALL OF
THESE INDIVIDUAL VACCINE
DOCUMENTATION IS REALLY
CHALLENGING.
YOU CAN PUT THAT TOGETHER IN AN
AIRPORT WHERE THE TIMELINESS IS
MUCH MORE IMPORTANT, ALL THE
TRAVELERS ON A PLANE WERE
VACCINATED IN A DIFFERENT
CLINIC.
THE LOGISTICS AND DELAYS AND
CONGESTION CAN BE A REAL PROBLEM
IN AND OF THEMSELVES.
THAT'S WHERE HAVING A CREDENTIAL
THAT STREAMLINES THIS PROCESS,
ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE A BUNCH
OF PASSENGERS ENTERING A CHECK
CHECKPOINT.
THAT CAN REALLY BE SOMETHING WE
ALL ENJOY.
PEOPLE DON'T LIKE WAITING IN
LINE AND CONGESTION AND DELAYS,
AND THAT'S A SECOND BENEFIT OF A
VACCINE PASSPORT.
>>> JOSH, WE'VE ALREADY SEEN
THESE VACCINE PASSES AT WORK IN
NEW YORK.
IT IS A FREE APP CALLED THE
EXCELSIOR PATH, BUT CONVERSELY,
FLORIDA JUST BANNED VACCINE
PASSPORTS.
SIMILAR LEGISLATION IS TRYING TO
GET OFF THE GROUND IN WISCONSIN
FROM REPUBLICANS.
PEOPLE ARE IN KIND OF CAMPS
ABOUT THIS, WHETHER THEY REALLY
WANT PEOPLE TO PROVE THEY HAVE
BEEN VACCINATED OR NOT.
SHOULD PEOPLE BE CONCERNED ONE
WAY OR THE OTHER ABOUT THESE
VACCINE CERTIFICATION EFFORTS?
>> YEAH.
I THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE A
CONTINUED VIBRANT POLITICAL
DEBATE ABOUT THE EXTENT TO WHICH
VACCINES CAN BE MANDATED.
THE EXTENT TO WHICH DIFFERENT
STATES MIGHT ALLOW, YOU KNOW,
VACCINE PASSPORTS OR
RESTRICTIONS RELATED TO
VACCINATION STATUS TO BE
IMPLEMENT THE, -- IMPLEMENTED,
AND WE ARE SEEING THAT PLAY OUT,
THE PUSH IN FLORIDA DEPENDENCE AGAINST ANY
TYPE OF PASSPORT WHEREAS IN NEW
YORK THEY EMBRACED THIS IDEA TO
AN EXTENT.
I, BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT OUR,
YOU KNOW, FEDERAL SYSTEM WORKS,
IT REALLY IS GOING TO BE A
STATE-BY-STATE DECISION JUST AS
THE DECISIONS ARE NOW AROUND
SCHOOL BASEED VACCINATION
REQUIREMENTS AND OTHER PUBLIC
HEALTH RULES AND REGULATIONS ARE
DECIDED AT THE STATE LEVEL.
THIS IS GOING TO BE A STATE BY
STATE BASIS WHICH ALSO RAISES
THE CONCERNS ABOUT A PATCHWORK
HERE, AND SO IF THE NEW YORK
SYSTEM, YOU KNOW, IS NOT ADOPTED
ELSEWHERE OR, YOU KNOW, IF YOU
ARE IN ONE STATE AND DID TO
ANOTHER STATE, ARE YOU GOING TO
HAVE TO JUGGLE TWO DIFFERENT
SYSTEMS TO CERTIFY YOUR
VACCINATION STATUS?
THAT'S, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING THAT
WE ALREADY MENTIONED.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT IS TO BE
RESOLVED AS FAR AS THE LEGALITY
OF THESE, AND THE EXTENT TO
WHICH THEY CAN BE REQUIRED OR
IMPOSED.
IT DOES SEEM LIKE THERE'S A
GROUND SWELL OF INTEREST IN
PRIVATE EMPLOYERS.
WE TALKED THE UNIVERSITIES, BUT
ALSO LARGE EMPLOYERS, YOU KNOW,
HAVING SOME KIND OF PROOF, IF
NOT ALL, MOST OF THEIR EMPLOYEES
HAVE BEEN VACCINATED BEFORE THEY
GO BACK TO THE OFFICE.
SO THERE'S CERTAINLY AN ARGUMENT
TO BE MADE ON BOTH SIDES HERE
AND DIFFERENT STATES MIGHT COME
OUT ON DIFFERENT PLACES ON THIS
ACCEPTANCE OF VACCINE PASSPORTS.
>> LAURA, IN TERMS OF
EFFICIENCY, HOW MUCH OF THIS
DEPENDS UPON INDIVIDUAL HUMAN
BEHAVIOR?
WE CAN'T EVEN SEEM TO AGREE
WHETHER OR NOT TO WEAR MASKS,
AND WISCONSIN TRIED TO ENCOURAGE
PEOPLE TO USE THIS CONTACT
TRACING APP, AND THAT DID NOT
TAKE OFF, AND SO HOW MUCH SHOULD
EFFICIENCY BE DETERMINED BY
HUMAN BEHAVIOR AND INCENTIVIZING
PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY USE SOME OF
THESE THINGS?
>> YEAH.
HUMAN BEHAVIOR IS SUCH A
CRITICAL PART OF EVERY SYSTEM,
ISN'T IT?
I SEE CARROTS AND STICKS THAT
COULD BE INVOLVED, AND, YOU
KNOW, A VACCINE CREDENTIAL COULD
BE VIEWED AS MORE OF A
REQUIREMENT OR A STICK, BUT
THERE'S A LOT OF INSENT iS.
SOME INCENTIVES HAVE BEEN REALLY
INTERESTING.
YOU KNOW, I'VE SEEN EMPLOYERS
GIVE EMPLOYEES TIME OFF OR PAID
FOUR HOURS TO GO GET A VACCINE,
WHICH IS REALLY NICE.
THE STATE OF WEST VIRGINIA IS
GIVING EVERYBODY A $100 BOND, I
BELIEVE, TO GET A VACCINE.
I THINK THIS IS A REALLY GREAT
APPROACH TO ENCOURAGE PUBLIC
SAFETY.
WE'VE SEEN OTHER THINGS THAT ARE
NOT REALLY CHARACTER STICKS, BUT
TRYING TO REDUCE THE TRANSACTION
COSTS OF GETTING A VACCINE.
THIS IS INCLUDING THE OPENING OF
THE MOBILE CLINICS.
SOMETIMES VACCINES COME TO AN
ASSISTED LIVING FACILITY, FOR
EXAMPLE, SO PEOPLE DON'T HAVE TO
TRAVEL, YOU KNOW, AND IT'S HARD
AND TIME CONSUMING TO FIND TIME
TO GET A VACCINE AND COME BACK
THREE WEEKS LATER SO ALL OF
THESE EFFORTS TOGETHER CAN MAKE
A REAL DIFFERENCE, AND I HOPE
THAT THEY DO.
>> JOSH, WE'RE ALREADY SEEING
SOME OF OUR LOCAL SPORTS TEAMS
MANY MADISON HERE OFFERING
VACCINATED ONLY SECTIONS.
CURRENTLY, IF YOU DO TRAVEL AND
YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED, YOU HAVE
TO SHOW THAT YOU TEST NEGATIVE
FOR COVID-19, SO IS THERE A
POSSIBILITY THAT PROVING WHETHER
OR NOT YOU'VE BEEN VACCINATED
WOULD BE REQUIRED, GETTING
VACCINATED WOULD BE REQUIRED
POSSIBLY FEDERALLY, OR ARE THEY
ARE WAY TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE,
LIKE A TSA PRE-CHECK AS WE ARE
GETTING THINGS BACK TO NORMAL?
>> RIGHT.
YEAH.
AND I THINK THAT THERE IS A
SPECTRUM OF OUTCOMES TO EXPECT
HERE, EITHER FROM A VERY STRICT,
YOU KNOW, MANMADE AND USE OF
PASSPORTS TO PROVE YOU MET THE
MANDATE REQUIREMENTS TO A MUCH
MORE, YOU KNOW, VOLUNTARY BASIS.
SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION ALREADY CAME OUT
SAYING THERE IS GOING TO BE NO
FEDERAL ISSUING OF THE VACCINE
PASSPORTS, OR THERE IS ALMOST
IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE A FEDERAL
MANDATE FOR A COVID-19
VACCINATION.
THAT'S VERY UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN,
AND THEY ALREADY SAID THAT
THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE NOT
GOING TO BE PURSUING.
THAT INSTEAD, LETTING THE STATES
LEAD ON THIS, AND THE PRIVATE
SECTOR CONSORTIUM AS YOU
MENTIONED IN DEVELOPING THE
ACTUAL, YOU KNOW, CERTIFICATION
THEMSELVES.
I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
WILL PLAY A ROLE IN TERMS OF
MONITORING HOW THOSE ARE GOING,
AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY MEET
FEDERAL GUIDELINES, BUT WITHOUT
ANY DIRECTION OR REQUIREMENT
COMING FROM THE FEDERAL
GOVERNMENT.
THAT MEANS THAT YOU'RE LEFT WITH
PRIVATE ENTITIES LIKE SPORTS
TEAMS OR, YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENTS,
YOU KNOW, PUTTING IN PLACE
CERTAIN INCENTIVES, AND I WOULD
IMAGINE A VACCINE ONLY SECTION
OF AN AUDIENCE IN A SPORTS
STADIUM TO BE A KIND OF
INCENTIVE FOR PEOPLE.
IF IT MAKES IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE
TO ATTEND, THEN THAT'S AN ADDED
INCENTIVE FOR THEM TO GET
VACCINATED AND ALSO TO SHOW
CERTIFICATION, IF THAT IS WHAT
IS USED TO ACCESS THAT, AND SO
WE'RE LIKELY TO SEE MORE AND
MORE OF THOSE TYPES OF INCENTIVE
STRUCTURES, WHETHER OR NOT THEY
ARE DESIGNED AS SUCH, THEY
PROBABLY HAVE THE EFFECT OF
INDUCING PEOPLE TO GET
VACCINATED AND ALSO DRIVE THIS
EFFORT TO DEVELOP
CERTIFICATIONS, WHICH ARE
TRUSTED AND USEFUL ACROSS
DIFFERENCE JURISDICTIONS.
>> LAURA, WE HAVE A BIG ECONOMIC
DRIVER COMING UP, WHICH IS THE
SUMMER TOURISM SEASON IN
WISCONSIN.
IS THIS SOMETHING THAT COULD
HELP JUMP START OR JUST KIND OF
GET SOME LIFE BACK IN TO A BIG
PART OF OUR ECONOMY, AND
ESPECIALLY IN THE TOURISM
INDUSTRY AS PEOPLE ARE EITHER
TOURING AROUND THE STATE OR
COMING FROM OUT OF STATE INTO
WISCONSIN?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK LAST SUMMER WE LOOKED AT
WHETHER OR NOT TO TRAVEL, AND
NOT TRAVELING WAS THE RIGHT
DECISION BASED ON WHAT WE KNEW
LAST YEAR, AND NOW IT IS HOW WE
TRAVEL.
WE'VE SEEN SOME CDC GUIDELINES
FOR TRAVEL THAT MEANS THAT
TRAVELERS DO NOT HAVE TO
QUARANTINE IF THEY ARE FULLY
VACCINATED.
THEY DON'T HAVE TO TEST BEFORE
FLYING.
MANY TRAVELERS HAVE BEEN TESTED
BEFORE TRAVELING BEFORE
TRAVELING TO ANOTHER STATE.
THIS VACCINATION CAN HELP REDUCE
THAT, AND HAVING THAT CREDENTIAL
IF SHOWN AT THE AIRPORT IS ALSO
USEFUL.
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT TOOL.
END TO PIGGYBACK ON SOMETHING
SAID A MOMENT AGO.
THERE IS A BIT OF A CREDENTIAL
IN WISCONSIN.
WE HAVE THE WISCONSIN
IMMUNIZATION REGISTRY WHICH IS
REALLY NICE.
YOU CAN DOWNLOAD YOUR VACCINES.
IF YOU HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED
IN THE STATE, YOU CAN'T REALLY
DO THAT, AND MOST OF MY
CHILDHOOD VACCINES WERE FROM
ANOTHER STATE.
INCIDENTALLY, WE DO HAVE TO SHOW
OTHER VACCINES FOR CERTAIN TYPES
OF ACTIVITIES INCLUDING TRAVEL.
WHEN I WENT TO GERMANY, I NEEDED
TO PROVE MY VACCINATION STATUS
FOR MANY OF THE CHILDHOOD
VACCINES, AND I DIDN'T HAVE
THOSE RECORDS HANDY, AND IT TOOK
A A
FEW VISITS TO GET BOOSTER SHOTS
TO GET OVER THE HUMP AS WE WERE
MISSING INFORMATION.
THESE TRANSACTION COSTS OF -- IF
YOU THINK MORE BROADLY ABOUT
VACCINATION AND PUBLIC HEALTH,
SOMETHING LIKE A VACCINE
PASSPORT CAN REALLY HELP US
MANAGE AND REDUCE SOME OF THOSE
COSTS.
>> AND, IF I COULD --
>> JOSH --
YEAH, GO AHEAD.
>> I WAS GOING TO PIGGYBACK OFF
THAT IDEA.
IN TERMS OF EXISTING MODELS AND
REQUIREMENTS, ON THE
INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL SIDE, OF
COURSE, THE MODEL THAT'S OFTEN
BEEN DEMONSTRATED OR TALKED
ABOUT AS SOMETHING WHICH WE
MIGHT SEE WITH COVID-19 IS THE
YELLOW FEVER VACCINE
CERTIFICATES PEOPLE HAVE TO SHOW
TO TRAVEL TO CERTAIN COUNTRIES
WHERE YELLOW FEVER IS A RISK,
AND SO PEOPLE CARRY AN ACTUAL
PHYSICAL CARD WITH THEM
DEMONSTRATING THEY HAD VACCINES.
IN THE PAST, WE HAD TO SHOW
OTHER VACCINATIONS LIKE SMALLPOX
AND ECT., AND SO, YOU KNOW, THIS
IDEA OF A CERTIFICATION EXISTS
TO SOME EXTENT ALREADY.
NOW, ON THE INTERNATIONAL
SPHERE, AS WE KNOW, THERE IS
DIFFERENTIALS IN TERMS OF ACCESS
TO VACCINES RIGHT NOW SO ANY
KIND OF SYSTEM THAT REQUIRES OR
MAKES IT EASIER FOR
INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL FOR PEOPLE
WHO HAVE BEEN VACCINATED, WHEN
THERE IS SO LITTLE ACCESS FOR
PEOPLE IN OTHER COUNTRIES, MANY
OTHER COUNTRIES TO GET
VACCINATED RIGHT NOW, IT DOES
RAISE QUESTIONS OF EQUITY, AND
THAT'S ONE OF THE MAJOR CONCERNS
THAT THE WORLD HEALTH
ORGANIZATION RAISED ABOUT USING
VACCINE PASSPORTS
INTERNATIONALLY RIGHT NOW, AND
SO THEY HAVE NOT RECOMMENDED
THEIR USE YET UNTIL THERE'S MORE
EQUITY IN TERMS OF ACCESS FOR
COVID-19 VACCINATIONS.
>> AND, JOSH, IS POLITICS GOING
TO COMPLICATE ALL OF THIS?
>> OH, YEAH, YOU KNOW, THIS IS A
PUBLIC POLICY THAT'S GOING TO
HAVE TO BE DEBATED AND DECIDED
IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE, AND SO
POLITICS IS ALREADY PART OF IT,
AND IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE PART
OF IT.
I THINK THAT MEANS THAT, YOU
KNOW, WHERE THESE DECISIONS ARE
BEING MADE OFTEN AT THE STATE
LEVEL, THERE'S GOING TO BE
ONGOING DEBATE ABOUT BOTH
MANDATES FOR VACCINES AND WHERE
THOSE CAN BE APPLIED, AND HOW TO
NAVIGATE THIS CERTIFICATION
SYSTEM IN WHICH SYSTEMS TO USE,
AND ALL OF THAT IS GOING TO
PLACE ON POLICYMAKERS A LOT OF,
YOU KNOW, BIG CHALLENGES IN
TERMS OF DECIDING ON HOW TO GET
THROUGH ALL OF THESE THORNY
QUESTIONS BECAUSE THERE ARE SUCH
RIGHT NOW, PASSIONATE BELIEFS ON
BOTH SIDES HERE THAT THEY CAN BE
HELPFUL, AND THEY CAN BE GOOD,
IN TERMS OF EASING THE PROCESS
TO NORMALITY, OR THEY CAN BE
SEEN AS SOMETHING WHICH IS
NEGATIVE AND SHOULD BE FOUGHT
AGAINST.
CERTAINLY, I WOULD EXPECT THERE
TO BE CONTINUED POLITICAL DEBATE
ON THIS.
WE HAVE NOT RESOLVED THIS, I
DON'T THINK ANYWHERE IN THE
UNITED STATES YET.
>> LAURA, SOME COUNTRIES LIKE
ISRAEL'S GREEN PASS HAVE ALREADY
STARTED TO DEVELOP REQUIREMENTS,
AND I IMAGINE OTHER COUNTRIES
ARE IN DEVELOPMENT AND GOING TO
BE RELEASING THEIR REQUIREMENTS
SOON.
WILL THAT KIND OF GLOBAL
PRESSURE FORCE THE UNITED STATES
AND OTHER COUNTRIES TO KIND OF
FIGURE OUT THEIR OWN SYSTEM
ALMOST KIND OF LIKE TRICKLING
DOWN SO THAT IT DOES KIND OF
BECOME LIKE A PASSPORT OR
ANOTHER FORM OF ID?
>> I THINK IT WILL.
I MEAN, IT WILL CREATE A BIG
INCENTIVE FOR EACH COUNTRY TO
DEVELOP A CREDENTIAL THAT CAN BE
TRUSTED AND USED WORLDWIDE,
ESPECIALLY AS WE SEE THE
VARIANTS EMERGING FROM DIFFERENT
PARTS OF THE WORLD.
YOU KNOW, THIS VIRUS IS GOING TO
BE AROUND FOR A LONG, LONG TIME,
AND SO THERE'S GOING TO BE
ONGOING CHALLENGES TO MANAGE IT,
BUT AS WE POINTED OUT, WE'RE IN
TRANSITION.
WE'RE GOING TO DEVELOP SOME
THING.
THERE'S A LOT OF NUANCE IN THE
CONVERSATION, AND WHERE WE WILL
BE IN A MONTH OR TWO FROM NOW IS
NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME PLACE
AS WHERE WE WILL BE A YEAR FROM
NOW OR EVEN FIVE YEARS FROM NOW.
THERE'S GOING TO BE ONGOING
DISCUSSIONS.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE A LOT OF
VOICES AND A LOT OF VOICES HEARD
AT THE TABLE, AND THEN WE CAN
SORT THROUGH SOME OF THAT NUANCE
NUANCE.
>> ALL RIGHT, WE NEED TO LEAVE
IT THERE, AND YOU SAID THERE'S A
LOT OF NUANCE, SO I WANT TO
THANK YOU BOTH FOR ADDING SOME
CONTEXT TO THIS VERY NUANCED
DISCUSSION.
THANK YOU, BOTH, FOR BEING HERE
TODAY.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> THANK YOU.
PLEASURE.
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, VISIT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG AND THANK YOU
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "NOON
WEDNESDAY."