>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH "HERE AND NOW"
ON PBS WISCONSIN, AND TODAY IS
APRIL 14th.
THIS WEEK IS BLACK MATERNAL
HEALTH WEEK, AND IN WISCONSIN,
INFANT DEATHS ARE THREE TIMES
HIGHER FOR BLACK BABIES THAN FOR
WHITE, AND STATE HEALTH
PROFESSIONALS WORK HARD TO
COMBAT NEGATIVE OUTCOMES FOR
BLACK MOTHERS.
JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT HER
WORK IN THE FIELD IS DR. JASMINE
ZAPATA, AN ASSISTANT AND
PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY
SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND HEALTH
MADISON, AND DR. ZAPATA, THANK
YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING THE TIME
TODAY.
HELP US UNDERSTAND THE SCOPE AND
IMPORTANCE OF THIS ISSUE.
>> THIS ISSUE IS SO IMPORTANT
BECAUSE WISCONSIN LEADS THE
NATION IN BLACK MATERNAL
MORTALITIES AND BLACK INFANT
MORTALITIES, AND SO THAT IS A
SIGNIFICANT PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS
THAT WE CANNOT IGNORE, AND I'M
SO EXCITED THAT THIS WEEK IS
BRINGING AWARENESS TO THAT.
>> AND YOU, YOURSELF, HAD A
PRETERM PREGNANCY.
DID THAT EXPERIENCE DRIVE YOU TO
BE A LEADER IN THIS FIELD?
>> IT DEFINITELY DID!
WHEN I WAS JUST ALMOST SIX
MONTHS PREGNANT, 25 WEEKS INTO
MY PREGNANCY, I SUDDENLY STARTED
HAVING SHARP PAIN IN MY LOWER
ABDOMEN AS I WALKED TO CLASS.
I WAS IN MEDICAL SCHOOL,
ACTUALLY, AND WHEN I GOT TO
SCHOOL, I JUST THOUGHT THAT
MAYBE IT WAS JUST GAS, AND IT
WOULD PASS, BUT IT KEPT COMING,
THAT SHARP PAIN KEPT COMING, AND
I CALLED THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE AND
TALKED TO THE TEAM, AND THEY
SAID, OH, IT'S FALSE LABOR, JUST
LAY DOWN, AND FOR ALMOST THREE
HOURS I CALLED OVER AND OVER
AGAIN, AND IT WAS KIND OF
DISMISSED, BUT THEN THERE WAS A
CHANGE, AND I KNEW THAT THIS WAS
AN EMERGENCY, AND WITHIN TWO
HOURS, I HAD MY LITTLE BABY
GIRL.
SHE WAS BORN ONLY 1.5 POUNDS,
CRITICALLY ILL, AND THANK GOD
SHE SURVIVED AFTER MULTIPLE LIFE
SAVING SURGERIES AND
INTERVENTIONS, BUT SHE SURVIVED,
AND THREE MONTHS LATER, WE LEFT
THE ICU, AND I BROUGHT HER HOME,
BUT GOING THROUGH THAT
EXPERIENCE, I SAID, GOD, I KNOW
WE'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE
PROMISES OR THINGS LIKE THAT OR
BARGAIN, BUT, PLEASE SAVE MY
BABY GIRL, AND IF YOU SAVE HER,
I WILL DO ALL THAT I CAN TO
CONTINUE TO BRING AWARENESS TO
THIS ISSUE, AND THAT WAS JUST
THE BEGINNING, AND I HAVE
DEDICATED MY WHOLE CAREER TO
THAT, AND I AM VERY PASSIONATE
ABOUT THIS CAUSE.
>> SUCH AN INCREDIBLE
EXPERIENCE, AND SOME PEOPLE MAY
ASSUME THAT THE MOTHER'S INCOME
OR ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE MAKES A
DIFFERENCE, BUT RESEARCH SHOWS
THAT'S NOT NECESSARILY TRUE, AND
YOUR EXPERIENCE SHOWS THAT'S NOT
NECESSARILY TRUE.
>> CORRECT.
COLLEGE EDUCATED BLACK WOMEN
HAVE ALMOST TWICE AS HIGH OF A
CHANCE OF HAVING AN ADVERSE
BIRTH OUTCOME OR COMPLICATIONS
IN THEIR PREGNANCY COMPARED TO
WHITE WOMEN WHO ARE HIGH SCHOOL
DROPOUTS, AND SO IT DOESN'T
MATTER EVEN WITH SOCIAL ECONOMIC
STATUS OR EDUCATION, WE STILL
ARE SEEING THESE INEQUITIES.
>> AND WHAT IS DRIVING THAT?
IS THERE SOMETHING ELSE AT PLAY
THAT IS LEADING TO THIS?
>> GREAT QUESTION.
THERE ARE STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT
FIRST GENERATION WOMEN WHO MOVED
TO THE UNITED STATES, FIRST
GENERATION WOMEN WHO MOVE TO THE
UNITED STATES FROM AFRICA, THEIR
BIRTH OUTCOMES ARE SIMILAR TO
WHITE WOMEN WITH THE LONGER THAT
THEIR GENERATIONS ARE HERE IN
THE UNITED STATES, THEN THAT IS
WHEN WE START TO SEE A WIDENING
OF THAT GAP AND START TO SEE
THESE HORRIBLE AND INCREASE IN
HORRIBLE BIRTH OUTCOMES, AND SO
IT IS LETTING US KNOW IT IS NOT
JUST GENETIC LIKE SOMETHING IN
OUR DNA, BUT IT IS BASED ON
LIVED EXPERIENCE, THE EXPERIENCE
OF BEING A BLACK WOMAN IN
AMERICA OVER TIME, AND SO IT IS
VERY COMPLEX, VERY
MULTIFACTORIAL, AND THERE'S A
LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS PLAYING
A ROLE IN THIS, BUT IT IS SO
IMPORTANT THAT WE CONTINUE TO
BRING AWARENESS TO THIS ISSUE,
LIKE, INTERVIEWS LIKE THESE, SO
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> AND YOU DO A LOT OF RESEARCH
IN THIS FIELD.
WHAT SORT OF SOLUTIONS HAS YOUR
RESEARCH LED YOU TO BECOME AN
ADVOCATE FOR FOR THIS REALLY
COMPLEX ISSUE?
>> YES.
INCREDIBLE QUESTION.
THE RESEARCH THAT I DO FOCUSES
ON LISTENING TO BLACK WOMEN.
IT IS PRETTY SIMPLE.
I CAN JUST SUMMARIZE IT LIKE
THAT.
LISTENING TO THE VOICES OF BLACK
WOMEN, TELLING ABOUT THEIR LIVED
EXPERIENCES, EVEN FROM
CHILDHOOD, AND HOW DIFFERENT
THINGS IN THEIR LIFE HAVE
IMPACTED THEM.
ALSO, THEIR EXPERIENCES WITH
INTERACTING WITH HEALTHCARE AND
PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEMS,
PARTICULARLY AS THEY ARE GOING
THROUGH THE BIRTHING PROCESS.
PRENATALLY, DURING PREGNANCY,
AND AFTER, AND SO OVER THE LAST
FEW YEAR, I'VE BEEN DOING A
SERIES OF ONE-ON-ONE INTERVIEWS
WITH BLACK MOMS DURING
PREGNANCY, IMMEDIATELY POST
PARTUM, AND SIX MONTHS AFTER
HAVING A BABY TO JUST FOLLOW
THEIR EXPERIENCE AND ASK THEM A
FEW KEY QUESTIONS LIKE, WHAT ARE
THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO IMPROVE
TRUST WITH THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM
AND REPAIR HARM?
WHAT'S YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH
DOOLAS?
WHAT'S NEEDED FROM THE COMMUNITY
TO FEEL SUPPORTED AND UPLIFTED
AND LOVED?
I HAVE JUST BEEN HAVING SOME
INCREDIBLE CONVERSATIONS AND
GETTING SOME INCREDIBLE INSIGHT
THAT IS SO RICH AND VALUABLE,
AND MY GOAL, AS A RESEARCHER, IS
TO TAKE THAT VERY IMPORTANT
KNOWLEDGE AND DISTRIBUTE IT AS
WIDELY AS POSSIBLE.
>> RESEARCH PUBLISHED IN 2020
HAS FOUND WHEN BLACK NEWBORNS
ARE CARED FOR BY A BLACK DOCTOR,
THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO SURVIVE.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THIS FINDING?
WHAT CAN THAT TELL US?
>> YES, THAT WAS VERY, VERY
INTERESTING PAPER, AND I WAS SO
EXCITED WHEN THAT CAME OUT.
WHAT IT IS GIVING US THE INSIGHT
TO IS THE CONCEPT OF IMPLICIT
BIAS WHERE SOMETIMES THERE -- WE
DON'T EVEN KNOW THAT WE ARE
MAKING JUDGMENTS OR WE'RE MAKING
CERTAIN DECISIONS SUBCONSCIOUSLY
THAT ARE DIFFERENT BASED ON A
PATIENT'S RACE.
THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES THAT
HAVE SHOWN THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN
OUR OWN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, THAT
BLACK PATIENTS RECEIVE LESS PAIN
MEDICATION COMPARED TO WHITE
PATIENTS FOR THE SAME COMPLAINTS
OF PAIN, AND IT IS NO ONE
THAT'S, LIKE, ACTUALLY OBVIOUSLY
TRYING TO BE RACIST OR OUTRIGHT
TREAT PEOPLE DIFFERENTLY, BUT
IT'S ALL, LIKE, IN OUR
SUBCONSCIOUS, AND THERE ARE ALSO
SOME SYSTEMIC STRUCTURES IN
PLACE THAT CONTRIBUTE TO SOME OF
THESE OUTCOMES THAT WE SEE, SO
IT IS VERY INTERESTING, AND THAT
FINDING ABOUT BLACK DOCTORS WHEN
THEY TREAT OR BLACK DOCTORS
TREATING BLACK BABIES THERE ARE
HIGHER SURVIVAL RATES.
I THINK THAT IS GIVING US A
LITTLE GLIMPSE INTO HOW OTHERS
HAVE IMPLICIT BIAS.
IT IS VERY INTERESTING.
THERE'S A LOT MORE RESEARCH TO
BE DONE IN THAT AREA, BUT I WAS
GLAD THAT SHED AT LEAST A LITTLE
BIT OF LIGHT ON THAT.
>> NOW, YOU SAID PART OF YOUR
WORK IS SIMPLY LISTENING TO
BLACK MOTHERS.
AT WHAT POINT DOES THE DATA JUST
NOT HOLD UP TO THE EXPERIENCE
AND STORIES OF BLACK MOTHERS
THAT THEY HAVE BEEN TELLING FOR
A LONG TIME?
>> THAT'S REALLY WHAT I GET
EXCITED AND PASSIONATE ABOUT,
JUST SPREADING THE WORD ABOUT
HOW IMPORTANT AND HOW MUCH
WEIGHT BLACK MOTHER EXPERIENCE
CARRIES.
A LOT OF TIMES JUST COMING UP IN
ACADEMIC FIELDS OF MEDICINE AND
RESEARCH, WE PUT A LOT OF WEIGHT
ON TO BE HONEST AND, QUITE
FRANKLY, PEOPLE WHO HAVE GONE TO
UNIVERSITIES AND DEGREES AND
TITLES BEHIND THE NAME, AND HOW
MANY PUBLICATIONS AND ACCOLADES
THEY HAVE, WE TEND TO LOOK AT
THAT AND CARRY, YOU KNOW,
ELEVATE THAT LEVEL OF EVIDENCE,
BUT WHEN IT IS SOMEBODY WHO JUST
SHARES A STORY OR LIVED
EXPERIENCE, IN GENERAL, WE DON'T
LOOK AT THAT AS HIGHLY.
WHAT I AM TRYING TO SAY IS WE
NEED TO TAKE THE VOICES OF THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST IMPACTED BY
THIS PROBLEM AND TAKE THAT VERY
SERIOUSLY AND ELEVATE THAT ABOVE
ANY FANCY PAPER OR PUBLICATION.
WE NEED TO LISTEN TO BLACK
WOMEN.
IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
SO THAT'S WHAT I -- WHAT MY
MISSION AND GOAL IS.
>> WISCONSIN HAS HELD THIS AS
WORST IN THE COUNTRY FOR RATES
IN DISPARITIES AND INFANT
MORTALITY AND THE STATE
DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH REPORTED IT
IS GETTING WORSE.
WHAT ADDITIONAL RESEARCH,
RESOURCES, OUTREACH IS ESSENTIAL
TO HELP MOVE THE NEEDLE?
>> GREAT QUESTION.
IN ORDER TO MOVE THE NEEDLE, WE
REALLY NEED TO BE LOOKING AT
THIS FROM A SOCIAL DETERMINANT
OF HEALTH STANDPOINT.
WE CAN'T WAIT UNTIL A BLACK
WOMAN IS PREGNANT TO START
INTERVENING AND GIVING HER
SUPPORT.
WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT A LIFE
COURSE PERSPECTIVE FROM THE
MOMENT A YOUNG BLACK BABY GIRL
IS BORN OF THE WE NEED TO BE
SUPPORTING HER.
WE NEED TO BE MAKING SURE THAT
HER EXPERIENCES OF GOING TO
SCHOOL OR JUST TRYING TO LIVE A
LIFE NOT JUST TO SURVIVE, BUT TO
THRIVEMENT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE
WE SUPPORT HER IN ALL AREAS OF
HER LIFE.
WE NEED TO COMBAT THE RACIAL
WEALTH GAP THAT WISCONSIN HAS --
IS PRETTY BAD WITH THAT -- WE
HAVE TO COMBAT THE EDUCATIONAL
DISPARITIES WE SEE AMONG RACES.
WE NEED TO GET EQUALITY WITH
WITH HOUSING.
WE NEED TO REFORM OUR CRIMINAL
JUSTICE SYSTEM WHERE A BLACK MAN
WHO DOES A CRIME IS SENTENCED AT
HIGHER RATES THAN A WHITE MAN
THAT CREATES -- WHO DOES THAT
SAME CRIME, AND SO WE NEED TO
REFORM OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM, REFORM OUR HOUSING
SYSTEM, COMBAT SYSTEMIC AND
INTERPERSONAL RACISM.
THERE'S A LOT WE HAVE TO DO OVER
THE LIFE COURSE BECAUSE WE KNOW
THAT ADVERSE CHILDHOOD
EXPERIENCES, THINGS THAT OUR
EXPERIENCED KIDS, EVEN 18 AND
YOUNGER, THAT IMPACTS THEIR
LONG-TERM HEALTH OUTCOMES, AND I
WOULD ARGUE, AND MANY SAY, THAT
RACISM IS AN ADVERSE CHILDHOOD
EXPERIENCE.
THINK ABOUT ALL THE KIDS RIGHT
NOW THAT ARE HAVING TO WATCH THE
NEWS AND WATCHING THE TRIAL
RIGHT NOW.
THE MURDER TRIAL OF DEREK
CHAUVIN.
FOR EXAMPLE, ALL OF THESE YOUNG
KIDS WATCHING THINGS ON THE NEWS
OR EXPERIENCING WHAT IS GOING ON
IN OUR WORLD TODAY AS IT RELATES
TO RACISM.
THAT'S ADVERSE CHILDHOOD
EXPERIENCE RIGHT THERE, AND ALL
OF THAT STRESS AND CHRONIC
INFLAMMATION, THAT CAN CAUSE
LONG-TERM HEALTH OUTCOMES SO I
GUESS TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, IN
A SHORT PERIOD BECAUSE I COULD
TALK ABOUT THIS ALL DAY, IS THAT
WE NEED TO LOOK AT THIS FROM A
SOCIAL DETERMINANT OF HEALTH
STANDPOINT AND ALSO OVER THE
ENTIRE LIFE COURSE LOOKING AT
HOW TO SUPPORT THE ENTIRE FAMILY
UNIT AND COMMUNITY UNIT.
>> YOU JUST DESCRIBED A WHOLE
HOST OF SYSTEMIC ISSUES.
DOES THIS TAKE A BROADER
ACKNOWLEDGEMENT FROM A LARGER
GROUP OF PEOPLE TO ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT RACISM IS AT PLAY, OR DOES
IT JUST TAKE A MINORITY OF
VOICES THAT ARE ACTIVATING ON
THIS ISSUE IN ORDER TO INSTITUTE
CHANGE?
>> BOTH OF THOSE.
WE NEED LEADERS AND ADVOCATES
AND PEOPLE TO BE OUTSPOKEN ABOUT
THIS, BUT WE CAN'T DO IT ALONE.
WE NEED EVERY SYSTEM WORKING
TOGETHER, EVERYONE WORKING
TOGETHER TO COMBAT THIS.
A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK OF THIS
JUST AS, LIKE, A HEALTH ISSUE OR
PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE.
WE NEED TO BE HAVING LANDLORD
ASSOCIATIONS WORKING WITH US.
WE NEED TO HAVE LEADERS OF
EDUCATIONAL -- OR EDUCATIONAL
INSTITUTIONS JOINING WITH US.
WE NEED POLITICIANS ON BOARD.
WE NEED EVERYBODY.
EVERYBODY.
ALL HANDS ON DECK.
IT ALL PLAYS A ROLE INTO THIS.
THIS IS MORE THAN JUST A
HEALTHCARE ISSUE IN THE
HEALTHCARE SECTOR.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
DR. JASMINE ZAPATA, THANK YOU SO
MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US ABOUT
THIS TODAY.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH!
>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE AND NOW"
AND TO DIG INTO THIS ISSUE MORE,
YOU CAN CHECK OUT AN INTERVIEW
WITH ANGELA FITZGERALD ON THE
DIGITAL SERIES "WHY RACE
MATTERS" AND SEE MORE AT
PBSWISCONSIN.ORG, AND THANK YOU
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "NOON
WEDNESDAY."