>>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH "HERE AND NOW QN
OUTS PBS WISCONSIN, AND TODAY IS
FEBRUARY 3.
ADDRESSING POLITICAL ISSUES FOR
SOME TIME AND THE NEED CONTINUES
TO GROW, EVEN MORE SO UNDER THE
COVID-19 PANDEMIC.
WAUSAU MAYOR, KATIE ROSENBERG,
IS LOOKING TO ADDRESS THIS IN A
NEW WAY BY JOINING A PILOT
PROGRAM THAT GUARANTEES A BASIC
INCOME FOR STRUGGLING FAMILIES.
SHE JOINS US NOW FROM WAUSAU TO
TELL US MORE ABOUT IT, AND,
KATIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
JOINING US.
I WANTED TO START JUST BY ASKING
YOU, YOU KNOW, HOW DID WAUSAU
GET INTO THE PILOT PROGRAM?
WHERE DID THE IDEA START FROM?
WHERE ARE YOU AT IN THE PROCESS?
>> SURE.
SO AS ALL GOOD THINGS START AND
WEIRD THINGS, I WAS LOOKING ON
TWITTER READING THE NEWS, AND I
SAW THAT MADISON HAD BEEN
CONSIDERING JOINING THIS
PROGRAM.
I LIKED THE TWEET AND MOVED ON
BECAUSE THERE'S NO WAY ELSE TO
GET INTO THIS, BUT THE PERSON
WHO ORGANIZES THIS PROGRAM
REACHED OUT TO ME AND SAID, HEY,
ARE YOU INTERESTED?
SO THEY -- SO WE TALKED, AND I
LEARNED A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE
PROGRAM, AND, OBVIOUSLY, WITH
ALL THINGS GOVERNMENT AND ALL
THINGS IN THE WORLD, YOU WONDER
WHERE DOES THIS FUNDING COME
FROM?
THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT
ORGANIZATIONS THAT USE CARE
FUNDING OR PRIVATE DONATIONS,
BUT MAYORS FOR GUARANTEED INCOME
IS OFFERING GRANTS UP TO
$500,000 FOR CITIES WHO ENTER
THIS PILOT PROGRAM, SO WE'RE IN
THE PROCESS OF APPLYING FOR THAT
INITIAL ENTRY INTO THE PROGRAM.
OUR FINANCE COMMITTEE
UNANIMOUSLY SUPPORTED IT, AND
IT'S MOVING INTO CITY COUNCIL
NEXT WEEK TUESDAY.
>> ALL RIGHT.
AND SO FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW,
LET'S BACK UP ONE STEP AND WHAT
IS GUARANTEED INCOME?
WHAT'S THAT MEAN?
>> SURE.
SO YOU PROBABLY HEARD A LITTLE
BIT ABOUT THE UNIVERSAL BASIC
INCOME CONCEPT WITH ANDREW YANG
RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AND WE'LL
HEAR MORE ABOUT IT IN NEW YORK
CITY.
THIS IS A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
GUARANTEED INCOME IS MORE ABOUT
LEVELING OUT THE PLAYING FIELD.
IT IS VERY TARGETED AT THE FOLKS
WHO NEED IT THE MOST.
WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE PILOT
PROGRAMS IS ANYWHERE FROM 18
FAMILIES TO MAYBE 150 WHO APPLY
TO BE A PART OF THIS, AND
THEY'LL GET $500 PER MONTH FROM
A YEAR TO A YEAR AND A HALF, AND
WE ARE PARTNERING -- THESE
CITIES ARE PARTNERING WITH THE
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA, AND
THEY ARE REALLY RIGOROUSLY
TRACKING DATA, ASKING PEOPLE
QUESTION, HOW IS IT IMPROVING
YOUR LIFE, AND SO THAT'S KIND OF
WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE THE PILOT
PROGRAM, BUT, YEAH, $500 PER
MONTH, JUST TO KIND OF LEVEL IT
OUT.
>> AND HOW DO YOU DETERMINE
WHICH FAMILIES ARE GOING TO BE
PARTICIPATING IN THE PILOT
PROGRAM?
>> YEAH.
SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
INDIVIDUAL CITIES HAVE KIND OF
LINED UP TO DECIDE THEIR
CRITERIA FOR ENTRANCE.
YOU KNOW, WE IN WAUSAU HAVE
DIFFERENT CRITERIA FOR VARIOUS
PROGRAMMING, WHETHER IT'S
HOUSING ASSISTANCE, RENTAL
ASSISTANCE, DOWN PAYMENT, THINGS
LIKE THAT SO WE'RE PRETTY GOOD
AT DECIDING AND HELPING FIGURE
OUT WHO HAS THE BIGGEST NEED FOR
VARIOUS PROGRAMS, BUT THIS IS A
LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
YOU KNOW, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY ARE ALREADY
WORKING.
MAYBE THEY ARE WORKING THREE
JOBS.
MAYBE THEY ARE LOOKING TO SPEND
A LITTLE MORE TIME WITH THEIR
FAMILIES, AND SO WHEN, I'M' I'M
ASSUMING WHEN, WE ENTER THIS
PROGRAM, WE'LL WORK WITH LOCAL
AGENCIES AND DETERMINE WHAT
CRITERIA BE MET?
HAVE A JOB?
TARGETED MORE TOWARDS FAMILIES?
TARGETED AT, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER
CRITERIA IT IS.
IN PITTSBURGH, FOR INSTANCE,
THEY NOTICED THAT BLACK WOMEN
HAD THE WORST OUTCOMES FOR
POVERTY SO THEY PUT A LOT OF
EFFORT IN TO BUILDING THAT
COMMUNITY UP.
>> AND $500, WHY THAT AMOUNT
SPECIFICALLY?
>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S --
IT'S A LOT OF MONEY IF YOU DON'T
HAVE IT, BUT IT'S ALSO NOT A LOT
TO LIVE ON.
THE CRITICISM I'VE ALREADY BEEN
SEEING WHO DON'T KNOW A LOT
ABOUT THE PROGRAM YET IS THAT,
OH, PEOPLE SHOULD BE WORKING, WE
SHOULDN'T JUST GIVE HANDOUTS,
THINGS LIKE THAT.
THIS IS REALLY AN OPPORTUNITY TO
SUPPLEMENT AN INCOME OR
SUPPLEMENT WHAT PEOPLE ARE
BRINGING IN FROM OTHER SOURCES
RATHER THAN REPLACING IT.
SO THAT'S BASICALLY WHERE THAT
NUMBER CAME FROM.
IT IS ALSO BEST PRACTICE FROM
THE ORGANIZATION AND RESEARCHERS
SO I WANT TO FOLLOW SCIENCE
HERE, TOO.
>> AND I DID WANT TO TALK ABOUT
SOME OF THAT CRITICISM.
I MEAN, WISCONSIN, IN
PARTICULAR, UNDER FORMER
GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER, PASSED
ADDITIONAL REFORMS FOR WELFARE,
AND, BASICALLY, REQUIRED
ADDITIONAL WORK REQUIREMENTS TO
GET WELFARE BENEFITS SUCH AS
FOOD SHARE.
DO YOU THINK THAT THIS IS
FEASIBLE IN A POLITICAL CLIMATE
LIKE WISCONSIN?
>> YOU KNOW, I UNDERSTAND THERE
ARE PHILOSOPHICAL DIFFERENCES,
ESPECIALLY APPROACHING PUBLIC
POLICY IN THIS WAY, AND THIS IS
REALLY WHAT'S AWESOME ABOUT THE
PILOT PROGRAM IS THAT, YOU KNOW,
WE'RE NOT LOCKING OURSELVES IN
TO A PROGRAM THAT WILL GO ON
THROUGH ETERNITY, RIGHT?
IT IS SCIENCE.
IT IS A RESEARCH PROJECT.
IT IS 18 MONTHS, AND THEN WE'RE
OUT.
IT IS BUILDING UP TO A BIGGER
POLICY DISCUSSION, LIKELY AT THE
FEDERAL LEVEL, BUT IT IS
BUILDING IN THAT DATA, AND SO I
WOULD SAY TO PEOPLE WHO ARE
MAYBE UNSURE, LIKE, LET'S JUST
GIVE IT A SHOT, LET'S ADD TO THE
BODY OF SCIENCE AND SEE WHERE
THIS TAKES US AND WHAT THE
RESULTS ARE, AND, YOU KNOW, I
UNDERSTAND THE PHILOSOPHICAL
DIFFERENCES, BUT THIS COULD
REALLY CHANGE THE WAY EVEN
WELFARE WORKS.
YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ARGUMENTS
IS THAT THIS COULD BE A PROGRAM
THAT REPLACES SOMETHING LIKE
WELFARE, AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE
DON'T KNOW WHERE WE ARE GOING
HERE, BUT THIS WILL BUILD INTO
BETTER POLICY DISCUSSIONS.
>> AND ONE MORE AREA OF
CRITICISM, I MEAN, THINGS LIKE
FOOD SHARE ALREADY DICTATE WHAT
PEOPLE CAN BUY WITH THOSE
DOLLARS, BUT AS I UNDERSTAND IT,
THIS $500 A MONTH IS NO STRINGS
ATTACHED, AND SO ARE YOU
SKEPTICAL ABOUT PEOPLE BEING
JUDGED FOR WHAT THEY END UP
PURCHASING WITH THAT MONEY, OR
WILL THAT NOT BE TRACKED AT ALL?
>> IT WILL BE TRACKED.
SO IN OTHER CITIES, THEY USE
DEBIT CARDS SO YOU CAN SEE WHAT
PEOPLE ARE BUYING, AND INITIALLY
WHAT THEY FOUND IS PEOPLE WERE
SO SHOCKED THEY WERE GIVEN THIS
MONEY THEY PULLED IT OUT AS CASH
AND SPENT IT THAT WAY, BUT
RESEARCHERS FOLLOW UP WITH THAT.
I THINK THAT THERE IS AN
OPPORTUNITY TO GO INTO THIS WITH
HEALTHY SKEPTICISM.
OBVIOUSLY, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T
WANT THE MONEY GOING TOWARDS
LOTTERY TICKETS AND ALCOHOL, IF
YOU ARE TRYING TO SUPPORT A
FAMILY, BUT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S
NOT A REQUIREMENT OF THIS.
I THINK THAT WHAT WE'LL FIND
OUT, AND THIS IS WHAT THE
RESEARCH IS ALREADY SHOWING,
THAT 75% OF THE DOLLARS GO TO
THINGS LIKE CLOTHING AND FOOD.
SO I AM PRETTY SURE THIS IS WHAT
WE'RE GOING TO SEE WHEN I'M
TALKING TO PEOPLE IN MY
COMMUNITY THAT ARE IN THE
GREATEST NEED, THEY ARE LOOKING
FOR BASICS, AND SO I'M -- I WANT
TO GO INTO THIS WITH POSITIVE,
ASSUMING POSITIVE INTENT.
>> AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR
COMMUNITY, AS YOU SAID, MADISON
IS WORKING TO IMPLEMENT THIS
ALREADY.
MILWAUKEE IS CONSIDERING IT.
WHY WAUSAU?
WASHINGTONWAUSAU IS AROUND 40,000 PEOPLE,
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STATE, WHY
YOUR CITY?
>> YOU KNOW, WHY NOT?
I THINK THAT WE HAVE A LOT TO
OFFER AS FAR AS VARIOUS -- I
MEAN, DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHICS.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT, AGAIN,
LIKE, ADDING TO THAT BODY OF
SCIENCE, AND GOING TO CITIES
THAT MAYBE ARE NOT AS BIG AS A
STOCKTON, CALIFORNIA OR EVEN THE
MADISON, WISCONSINS.
I THINK IT WILL HELP US
UNDERSTAND WHAT THE NEED LOOKS
LIKE, AND I THINK IT'LL JUST
BUILD A BETTER CASE FOR PUBLIC
POLICY MOVING FORWARD.
>> AND SO YOU TALKED ABOUT THE
SOCIAL SCIENCE RESEARCHERS, SO
THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA
IS PART OF THIS PILOT PROGRAM,
AND SO THEY ARE NOT ONLY
STUDYING WHAT HAPPENS IN WAUSAU,
WHICH I BELIEVE IS THE SMALLEST
CITY THAT'S A PART OF THIS
STUDY, BUT IN CITIES ALL ACROSS
THE COUNTRY.
SO WHAT ARE THEY LOOKING FOR
EXACTLY?
YOU TOUCHED ON THIS EARLIER, BUT
WHAT AREAS ARE THEY LOOKING TO
UNDERSTAND BETTER?
>> YEAH.
SO THIS IS THE PART WHERE, YOU
KNOW, YOU ARE GOING INTO WHAT
YOU WANT TO KNOW, WHAT ARE THE
NEEDS PEOPLE ARE EXPERIENCING,
WHAT ARE THEY ACTUALLY SPENDING
THAT MONEY ON, AND WHERE ARE THE
GAPS, WHAT ARE THE PROBLEMS THAT
THEY ARE SEEING, WHAT ARE THE
BARRIERS?
SO I THINK PART OF THIS IS JUST
TO EXPLORE WHAT CAN BE DONE AND
QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS, YOU
KNOW, ARE YOU ABLE TO STOP GOING
TO ONE OF THOSE TITLE COMPANIES?
TITLE LOANS, YOU KNOW?
THOSE THINGS ARE VERY HARMFUL
BECAUSE OF THE INTEREST RATES.
SO SEEING HOW PEOPLE ARE
CHANGING THEIR BEHAVIORS BASED
ON, YOU KNOW, A PRETTY SMALL
AMOUNT OF MONEY IN THE BIG
SCHEME OF THINGS.
HOW ARE THEY ABLE TO EVEN GET
ABOVE THOSE BARRIERS?
HOW ARE THEY ABLE TO HAVE BETTER
LIVES FOR THEIR FAMILIES?
ARE THEY ABLE TO SPEND MORE TIME
WITH THEIR KIDS INSTEAD OF
WORKING THREE JOBS, THEY WORK ON
HOMEWORK WITH THEIR KIDS?
THAT'S KIND OF THOSE SOCIAL
THINGS, TOO, ARE VERY IMPORTANT.
IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT, YOU KNOW,
MEETING BASIC NEEDS.
IT'S ABOUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO
BE HUMAN IN AMERICA?
>> AND AT THE END OF 18 MONTHS,
WHICH YOU SAID THIS IS THE --
THAT'S THE LENGTH OF THIS
PROGRAM -- WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO
HAPPEN AFTER THAT?
IS THERE A LONG-TERM PLAN?
ARE YOU JUST LOOKING TO GET IT
GOING NOW?
>> YEAH.
I THINK THAT IT'S MORE ABOUT
GETTING IT GOING, COLLECTING THE
DATA, AND, YOU KNOW, I WILL BE
PAYING VERY CLOSE ATTENTION TO
WHAT RESULTS WE ARE SEEING.
IF THIS IS REALLY GOOD FOR OUR
COMMUNITY, OF COURSE WE'RE GOING
TO HAVE THINK ABOUT A WAY TO
RESPOND TO THE NEED ONCE IT'S
NOT THERE ANYMORE, BUT, YOU
KNOW, I'M GOING INTO THIS WITH
THAT KIND OF EXPERIMENTAL MIND
SET AND CHEERING FOR SCIENCE
ALONG THE WAY.
>> AS WE ARE ENTERING ABOUT A
YEAR, FRIDAY WILL BE THE
ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE
FIRST CORONAVIRUS CASE IN
WISCONSIN.
HOW HAS WAUSAU BEEN FAIRING IN
THE PANDEMIC?
DO YOU SEE THE NEED FOR A
PROGRAM LIKE THIS, EVEN
STRONGER?
>> YEAH.
WE'RE SEEING THERE'S DEFINITELY
A NEED.
YOU KNOW, WE ARE LUCKY WE'VE HAD
SOME PROTECTIONS.
THERE'S BEEN EVICTION
MORATORIUMS.
WE HAVE A REALLY GREAT LOCAL
REGIONAL FOOD PANTRY, BUT, YOU
KNOW, THEY ARE SEEING AN
INCREASED NEED MORE THAN EVER
BEFORE.
WE HANDED OUT -- I WANT TO SAY
SAY -- 100 BOXES OF FOOD TO
FAMILIES IN TWO HOURS SO WE ARE
SEEING THAT INCREASE NEED, AND
IT IS NOT -- IT'S NOT THE PEOPLE
YOU'D EXPECT.
IT'S EVERYBODY THAT NEEDS A
HELPING HAND RIGHT NOW.
IT'S REALLY BEEN TOUGH,
ESPECIALLY ON PEOPLE WHO MAYBE
ON THEIR OWN BUSINESSES OR MAYBE
THEY ARE A HAIR STYLIST WHO
COULDN'T BE OPEN, SO WE ARE
SEEING IT ACROSS THE BOARD FROM
ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT
DEMOGRAPHICS AND PEOPLE, AND SO
IT'S TOUGH.
I KNOW THAT WE HAVE A FIGHTING
SPIRIT, AND WE'LL GET THROUGH
THIS.
I'M HOPING THAT THIS IS THE KIND
OF PROGRAM THAT WILL HELP KIND
OF SUPERCHARGE THAT RECOVERY
INTO THE FUTURE.
>> DO YOU HOPE THAT IT COULD
POTENTIALLY BE EXPANDED TO A
UNIVERSAL BASIC INCOME PROGRAM?
>> I'M INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT
THE DATA SHOWS.
YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF
DIFFERING KIND OF ANALYSIS ON
THE PROGRAMS, AND PART OF THAT
IS JUST WE DON'T KNOW.
WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO
HAPPEN.
WE DON'T KNOW HOW PEOPLE ARE
GOING TO REACT.
I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT WE CAN
LEARN AND GLEAN FROM THE
SCIENCE, AND, OF COURSE, PUBLIC
POLICY IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS
THAT'S CHANGING ALL THE TIME.
WHEN YOU HAVE CHANGES IN
GOVERNORS, WHEN YOU HAVE CHANGES
IN PRESIDENTS, AND SO I'M
INTERESTED IN SEEING HOW THIS
CAN HELP DIRECT THEIR
SECRETARIES AND THE CONGRESS,
AND SO THAT'S -- THAT'S WHAT I'M
GOING INTO.
AGAIN, I -- I REALLY HOPE THIS
WORKS OUT GREAT AND LEADS US TO
GREAT CONCLUSIONS.
>> AND YOU SAID THIS GOES TO
YOUR CITY COUNCIL NEXT TUESDAY.
WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT
WHETHER IT'S SUPPORTED OR NOT?
WHAT HAVE THE QUESTIONS OF
SKEPTICISM OR CONCERN BEEN FROM
EITHER THE CITY COUNCIL OR THE
COMMUNITY?
>> YEAH.
SO THE FINANCE COMMITTEE
UNANIMOUSLY APPROVED THIS
PROGRAM, SO I FEEL PRETTY
CONFIDENT THAT THE CITY COUNCIL
WILL FOLLOW SUIT.
YOU KNOW, I, OBVIOUSLY, DON'T
KNOW FOR SURE, BUT THE
CRITICISMS I'VE BEEN SEEING ARE
FROM FOLKS THAT THINK THAT, YOU
KNOW, AGAIN, THAT QUESTION OF,
PEOPLE SHOULD BE WORKING, THEY
SHOULDN'T JUST GET A FREE
SOMETHING, AND, YOU KNOW, MY
ANSWER IS, THEY WILL BE WORKING,
$500 IS DEFINITELY NOT ENOUGH TO
PAY RENT, GET FOOD, SUPPORT YOUR
FAMILY ON, AND, YOU KNOW, SOME
OTHER QUESTIONS CAME ABOUT WITH,
WELL, WHAT ABOUT TAXPAYER
DOLLARS?
SO RIGHT NOW, UNDERSTANDING THIS
IS COMING FROM A GRANT HAS KIND
OF ADDRESSED SOME OF THE
CONCERNS WHEN IT COMES TO THAT
MONEY.
A LOT OF QUESTIONS, WHAT IF IT
DOES WORK?
DO YOU USE THE MONEY THEN?
I GUESS WE HAVE TO DECIDE THEN
WHAT WE'LL DO, YOU KNOW, THE
CITY OF STOCKTON HAD THIS
PROGRAM GOING FOR, I THINK, 18
MONTHS, AND THEN THEY DECIDED
THAT SINCE IT WAS ENDING RIGHT
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PANDEMIC,
THEY'D EXPAND IT A LITTLE BIT
LONGER.
YOU KNOW, WE MIGHT SEE THINGS
THAT WE LIKE THAT WE REALLY
LIKE.
MAYBE WE'LL PULL PIECES FROM IT,
BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK, AGAIN,
THE CRITICISMS ARE THOSE THAT
CAN BE SOLVED RIGHT NOW, BUT
WORRYING ABOUT THE FUTURE
DOESN'T REALLY GET US TO WHERE
WE NEED TO GO RIGHT NOW SO I'M
JUST GOING TO RELY ON THAT BODY
OF SCIENCE AND HOW THIS ADDS TO
PUBLIC POLICY.
>> AND IF THIS IS PASSED BY THE
CITY COUNCIL NEXT WEEK, HOW SOON
CAN YOU SEE IT IMPLEMENTED AS WE
DON'T KNOW AT THIS POINT WHEN
THE PANDEMIC WILL END.
>> YEAH.
IT IS GO TIME AFTER THAT.
SO THE FIRST THING WE HAVE TO DO
AS A CITY IS COME UP WITH THOSE
CRITERIA.
I'LL PULL IN FOLKS FROM OUR
NON-PROFIT ORGANIZATIONS WHO
WORK WITH THESE POPULATIONS,
WE'LL DEVELOP CRITERIA, WE'LL
WANT TO CONNECT.
ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID NOT
TALK ABOUT WAS A LOCAL
RESEARCHER.
THERE'S A FELLOWSHIP AT THE
GUARANTEED INCOME ALSO OFFERS SO
WE HAVE TO IDENTIFY THAT FELLOW
TO HELP US MAKE SURE WE ARE
TRACKING THE RIGHT PEOPLE, AND
THEN REALLY TO COME UP WITH A
PLAN.
WHAT'S THIS ACTUALLY LOOK LIKE
HERE?
AND THEN WE'LL TALK TO MAYORS
FOR GUARANTEED INCOME, HOW DOES
THIS LOOK?
WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?
A CITY IN SOUTH CAROLINA CAME UP
WITH A PLAN TO ADDRESS 18
PEOPLE, AND MAYORS FOR
GUARANTEED INCOME LOVED IT SO
MUCH, THEY WANTED THEM TO EXPAND
IT TO 55 PEOPLE, HERE'S
$500,000.
SO WE'LL WITH GET THERE.
WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE
CRAFTING A SCALABLE, BUT
SOMETHING THAT MAKES SENSE FOR
OUR CITY.
>> ALL RIGHT.
WAUSAU MAYOR, KATIE ROSENBERG,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US TODAY.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH!
THIS WAS FUN!
>>> FOR MORE FROM "HERE AND NOW"
AND PBS WISCONSIN, VISIT
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WEDNESDAY."