THIS IS A TEST.
TEST.
WPT, TEST.
>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTI-MEDIA
JOURNALIST WITH HERE AND NOW ON
PBS WISCONSIN.
TODAY IS JANUARY 13TH.
A WEEK AGO TODAY ON JANUARY 6TH,
PRO TRUMP EXTREMISTS STORMED THE
UNITED STATES CAPITOL WHILE THEY
COUNTED THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE
VOTES.
A LOT OF ANALYSIS ABOUT THE
EVENTS LEADING UP TO AND DURING
THE DAY.
WHAT'S MORE, SIMILAR ACTS ARE
EXPECTED ACROSS COUNTRY LEADING
UP TO THE INAUGURATION OF
PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN.
TODAY CONGRESS IS DEBATING AN
IMPEACHMENT RIGHT NOW IN THE
HOUSE.
JOINING US TO INTERPRET WHAT ALL
OF THIS MEANS IN WISCONSIN IS
KATY CULVER, DIRECTOR OF THE
CENTER OF JOURNALISM ETHICS AND
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT
U.W.-MADISON SCHOOL OF
JOURNALISM AND MASS
COMMUNICATION AND WE WANT TO
THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
I WANT TO START BY ASKING, THERE
IS SO MUCH INFORMATION AND
DISINFORMATION AROUND THE EVENTS
OF LAST WEEK.
AND AS WE SAID LEADING UP TO.
HOW SHOULD PEOPLE BE FILTERING
OUT WHAT THEY ARE SEEING AND
HEARING IN NEWS MEDIA AND SOCIAL
MEDIA?
>> IT'S A FANTASTIC QUESTION,
AND THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
ME HERE.
SUCH AN IMPORTANT TIME FOR ALL
OF US CITIZENS TO BE THINKING
ABOUT WHAT WE CAN BELIEVE AND
WHAT WE CAN'T BELIEVE.
MY BEST ADVICE TO PEOPLE AS WE
THINK ABOUT THAT FILTERING IS TO
FILTER OUT THOSE THINGS THAT
MAKE YOU FEEL REALLY EMOTIONAL
IN THE MOMENT.
IT'S -- NOW IS ARGUABLY THE MOST
IMPORTANT TIME IN MY LIFETIME
FOR ALL OF US TO BE THINKING
ABOUT VETTED, VERIFIED
INFORMATION RATHER THAN THE
THINGS THAT INFLAME US.
WE SAW LAST WEEK THE DIRECT
RESULT OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
MIS AND DISINFORMATION INFLAME
EMOTIONS AND IT WAS A DANGEROUS
SITUATION.
>> ON MONDAY THIS WEEK WE SAW
WISCONSIN'S CAPITOL BUILDING
BOARDED UP, THE NATIONAL GUARD
MOBILIZED BY THE GOVERNOR.
LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL LAW
ENFORCEMENT ARE ON ALERT ACROSS
THE COUNTRY FOR FURTHER VIOLENCE
AT STATEHOUSES AND GOVERNMENT
BUILDINGS.
SHOULD WE BE MENTALLY PREPARING
FOR SOME SORT OF VIOLENCE
LOCALLY?
>> I THINK WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO
BE PREPARING AND IN THE EVENT
THAT WE PREPARE AND NOTHING
COMES TO PASS, THAT'S JUST FINE.
YOU KNOW, WE HAVE -- WE HAVE
TAKEN ACTION IN RESPONSE TO SOME
PRETTY CLEAR WARNING SIGNALS AND
YOU KNOW, I WILL BE GRATEFUL IF
WE SEE NO VIOLENCE BUT WE CANNOT
BURY OUR HEADS IN THE SAND.
I THINK A LOT OF US, MYSELF
INCLUDED, DID NOT TAKE SERIOUSLY
ENOUGH WHAT HAPPENED IN MICHIGAN
IN THE FALL WITH DIRECT THREATS
AGAINST THE GOVERNOR AND
CRIMINAL PLOTS TO KIDNAP AND
POSSIBLY ASSASSINATE THE
GOVERNOR.
IT SEEMED AT THE TIME SURREAL
AND YOU KNOW, ALMOST, YOU KNOW,
JUST LIKE AN ODD BALL, RAG-TAG
BAND OF PEOPLE BUT I THINK IT
WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT SIGNAL
THAT A LOT OF US MISSED.
AND SO LET'S NOT MAKE THAT
MISTAKE AGAIN.
HAD WE BEEN MORE SORT OF UP IN
ARMS ABOUT THE CALLS TO ARMS IN
MICHIGAN, WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN
BETTER PREPARED LAST WEDNESDAY
AND SO I THINK NOW GIVEN WHAT WE
SAW LAST WEDNESDAY WE HAVE TO BE
PREPARED THIS WEEKEND AND
HEADING INTO THE INAUGURATION
AND TO BE HONEST, BEYOND.
>> IS THERE ANY RISK OF
UNNECESSARY PANIC, THOUGH, AND
PUBLIC ANXIETY?
>> SURE, I THINK ALL OF US DO
FEEL SCARED.
I MEAN, YOU COULDN'T -- I DON'T
CARE WHAT YOUR IDEOLOGY IS, YOU
COULD NOT LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED
LAST WEDNESDAY AND NOT FEEL SOME
SENSE OF FEAR.
THAT SEEMED TO GO ACROSS THE
POLITICAL SPECTRUM.
SO, I'M NOT ARGUING THAT WE
SHOULD, YOU KNOW, INFLAME PEOPLE
OR IGNITE THEIR PASSIONS OR
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
I'M SAYING THAT WE SHOULD ALL
LISTEN TO THE SIGNALS THAT WE
ARE RECEIVING AND PREPARE FOR
THEM APPROPRIATELY.
YOU KNOW, WE DO THIS ALL THE
TIME IN OUR PERSONAL LIVES.
TAKE YOUR HEALTH, YOU GET ALL
SORTS OF SIGNALS ABOUT YOUR
HEALTH AND YOU TAKE PREPARATION,
OR YOU MAKE PREPARATIONS IN
RESPONSE.
THE SAME THING WHEN IT COMES TO
OUR DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS AND
HOW WE CAN RESPOND TO MOMENTS OF
DIVISIVENESS LIKE THIS.
>> OUR COLLEAGUES AT WISCONSIN
PUBLIC RADIO REPORTED TODAY THAT
THEY ANALYZED THE COUNTY
REPUBLICAN Facebook PAGES AND
SAW INFLAMMATORY RHETORIC,
INCLUDING "PREPARE FOR WAR" AND
"PLAN FOR TEMPORARY VIOLENCE."
WHERE IS THE LINE OF
RESPONSIBILITY?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT
CLEARLY CROSSES THE LINE OF
RESPONSIBILITY, THAT REPORTING
WAS BREATHTAKING WHEN I SAW IT.
AND I THINK WE HAVE REALLY
ABANDONED A CALL FOR A BROADER
SENSE OF ETHICS IN PUBLIC
COMMUNICATION.
I RUN THE CENTER FOR JOURNALISM
ETHICS, A LOT OF DISCUSSION OF
JOURNALISM ETHICS AND ACT OUT OF
EGO RATHER THAN THE PUBLIC
INTEREST.
THOSE CONVERSATIONS NEED TO BE
MUCH MORE BROAD AS WE ALL HAVE
ACCESS TO THE MEANS TO PUBLISH,
WHETHER IT'S THROUGH A Facebook
PAGE OR A TWEET, ALONG WITH THE
TREMENDOUS POWER OF PUBLICATION
COMES TREMENDOUS RESPONSIBILITY.
AND I THINK WE HAVE NOT HAD THE
SORT OF, YOU KNOW, MORAL
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHAT IT
MEANS TO INFLAME PEOPLE TO SAY,
YOU KNOW, PREPARE FOR WAR.
THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY IN --
INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT.
>> GLEN GROSSMAN LAST WEEK SAID
THAT OF THE 10 OF THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE AT THIS RALLY SAYING
"SOME OF THEM VERY WONDERFUL
PEOPLE FROM WISCONSIN."
DOES THIS HAVE ECHOS TO WHAT
PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID IN 2017
AROUND THE CHARLOTTESVILLE
PROTESTS WHERE HE SAID THERE
WERE VERY FINE PEOPLE ON BOTH
SIDES.
SHOULD THERE BE ANY SORT OF
ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT NOT EVERYONE
IS VIOLENT OR IS THIS GOING A
LITTLE TOO FAR?
>> I'M SURE ALMOST EVERYBODY
HEARD ECHOS OF THE
CHARLOTTESVILLE STATEMENT IN
WHAT GLEN GROSSMAN SAID.
AS WE CONSIDER HOW WE WANT OUR
POLITICIANS AND CIVIC LEADERS TO
BE SPEAKING PUBLICLY, THEY HAVE
A RESPONSIBILITY TO ALL OF US
RATHER THAN TRYING TO PRESERVE A
BASE THAT WILL CONTINUE TO VOTE
THEM INTO OFFICE.
AND WE HAVE LARGELY LOST SIGHT
OF THAT.
WE NEED TO RETURN TO THAT.
YOU KNOW, THOSE WERE NOT VERY
FINE PEOPLE.
WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CAPITOL WAS
NOT A MISTAKE OF THINKING THAT
YOU COULD COME IN AND ON THIS
DAY GET IT.
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT USING, YOU
KNOW, BATONS AND FLAG POLES AND
FIRE EXTINGUISHERS AND BEAR
SPRAY TO BUST THROUGH POLICE
BARRICADES, ATTACK POLICE
OFFICERS, I JUST DON'T THINK
IT'S THE TIME TO SAY THESE ARE
VERY GOOD PEOPLE.
NOW, THERE ARE PLENTY OF VERY
GOOD PEOPLE IN WISCONSIN WHO
SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO FEEL
AGRIEVED, WHO HAVE QUESTIONS
ABOUT THE ELECTION.
THE PROBLEM FOR ME IS THAT THOSE
QUESTIONS IN THEIR MIND HAVE
BEEN STOKED BY THE PRESIDENT AND
HIS ALLIES.
YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE BEEN LIED TO
AND THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE DOUBT.
AND SO WE NEED TO RETURN TO THE
DOUBT THAT THE CIVIC LEADERS
HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO THE
TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH HERE IS
THAT PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN
WON THIS ELECTION, NOT BY A
SMALL MARGIN.
SO, WHEN YOU CONTINUE TO STOKE
LIES IN THE PUBLIC'S MIND AND
THEN EXCUSE THEIR BEHAVIOR IN
RESPONSE TO THOSE LIES, YOU
REALLY NEED TO HOLD YOURSELF
ACCOUNTABLE, AND WE NEED TO HOLD
THOSE CIVIC LEADERS ACCOUNTABLE
FOR WHAT THEY HAVE SAID.
>> JUST YESTERDAY A WISCONSIN
MAN WAS ARRESTED IN EAU CLAIRE.
HE POSTED ON SOCIAL MEDIA
HIMSELF THAT HE HAD BEEN INSIDE
THE U.S. CAPITOL LAST WEEK, WAS
EVEN POSTING HE KNEW THE FBI WAS
LOOKING FOR HIM.
ADDITIONALLY, A TEACHER FROM
BURLINGTON HAS BEEN SUSPENDED
WHILE THE DISTRICT IS
INVESTIGATING HIS ATTENDANCE.
HOW SHOULD WE VIEW OUR
NEIGHBORS, TEACHERS, LAW
ENFORCEMENT, ANY MEMBERS OF THE
COMMUNITY THAT WE KNOW OR THINK
ATTENDED THIS RALLY?
>> I THINK YOU ARE GOING TO SEE
A LOT OF CONSEQUENCES PLAYING
OUT FROM THIS.
YOU KNOW, WE ARE ALREADY SEEING
PEOPLE LOSING THEIR JOBS IN
RESPONSE TO BEING IDENTIFIED,
AND YOU KNOW, THOSE ARE
INDIVIDUAL DECISIONS, YOU KNOW,
WHETHER A PUBLIC SCHOOL EMPLOYEE
HAS THE RIGHT TO PROTEST VERSUS
BREACH THE CAPITOL, THOSE ARE
DIFFERENT QUESTIONS.
SO I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS
THAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THAT
WE ARE NOT USING SPECIFIC ENOUGH
LANGUAGE.
THERE'S A LOT OF TALK ABOUT, YOU
KNOW, THIS WAS A FIRST AMENDMENT
PROTEST, FOR INSTANCE, INITIALLY
THE WAY THAT IT WAS FRAMED BY
THE CAPITOL POLICE LEADERSHIP.
IT WAS NOT A FIRST AMENDMENT
PROTEST.
IT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS, IT'S NOT
WHAT IT WAS ABOUT AT ALL.
IT WAS ABOUT ACTION, IT WAS NOT
ABOUT SPEECH.
AND SO YOU, I THINK YOU ARE
GOING TO SEE MORE SERIOUS
CONSEQUENCES BECAUSE IT WAS NOT
ABOUT SPEECH.
AND TO GET TO YOUR QUESTION HOW
SHOULD WE BE DEALING WITH OUR
FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, ONE OF
THE THINGS I'M ADVISING PEOPLE,
TO GET BACK TO A SENSE OF MUTUAL
RESPECT.
THAT EVEN IF I DISAGREE WITH YOU
POLITICALLY, YOU AND I HAVE THE
SAME POWER IN THE SYSTEM.
WE ARE BOTH CITIZENS, WE BOTH
GET TO ENJOY OUR RIGHT TO VOTE,
WE BOTH GET TO ENJOY OUR RIGHTS
TO FREE EXPRESSION.
WHAT I WOULD CALL ON ALL OF US
IS TO GET BACK TO THE, TO THAT
SENSE OF MUTUAL DECENCY.
JUST BECAUSE I DISAGREE WITH YOU
DOES NOT MAKE YOU LESSER THAN
ME.
THAT'S REALLY WHAT UNDERPINS OUR
SYSTEM OF FREE EXPRESSION IN
THIS COUNTRY, THE NOTION OF A
MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS IS THAT WE
DON'T HAVE THIS HYPERPARTISAN
DIVISIVE DISDAIN FOR EACH OTHER,
THAT WE ARE ENGAGING ON IDEAS
RATHER THAN THINKING OF EACH
OTHER AS LESS THAN.
>> YOU MENTIONED FREEDOM OF
SPEECH AND THAT'S WHAT SOME ARE
SAYING IS BEING STOMPED ON RIGHT
NOW.
MANY OF THESE GROUPS ARE BEING
DEPLATFORMED IN MAINSTREAM
SOCIAL MEDIA GROUPS AS WELL AS
SOME, A COUPLE LAYERS DEEPER ON
THE INTERNET.
ARE THERE ANY FREEDOM OF SPEECH
IMPLICATIONS AS WE GO FORWARD?
>> YEAH, I THINK -- WE CONTINUE
TO HAVE SO MANY PEOPLE CONFUSING
THE ISSUE OF WHAT IS A FIRST
AMENDMENT CASE AND WHAT IS NOT.
SO, I HAVE NO FIRST AMENDMENT
RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO TWITTER.
TWITTER IS POWERFUL, WE COULD
HAVE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HOW THE
PLATFORM OUGHT TO PERHAPS BE
REGULATED TO USE THAT POWER
RESPONSIBLY, BUT THERE IS NO
CONSTITUTIONAL ISSUE AT ALL.
MY FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS BEGIN
AND END WITH GOVERNMENT ACTION.
SO IF TONY EVERS TRIES TO
SUPPRESS MY SPEECH, I'VE GOT A
FIRST AMENDMENT PROBLEM.
Facebook DOES IT, I JUST DON'T.
AND SO I THINK WE ALL NEED TO
UNDERSTAND THAT THE PROTECTION
OF FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IS
PROTECTION FROM GOVERNMENT.
IT'S NOT PROTECTION FROM BIG
CORPORATE PLAYERS.
NOW, Facebook AND TWITTER AND
OTHERS, YOUTUBE, HAVE LONG
EMBRACED THE CONCEPT OF FREE
EXPRESSION, SO NOT, YOU KNOW, I
HAVE NO FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS
WITH THEM BUT THEY WANT THEIR
PLATFORMS TO LARGELY BE PLACES
WHERE PEOPLE CAN EXPRESS
THEMSELVES.
BUT THE SECOND THING I REALLY
WANT ALL OF US TO KEEP OUR EYES
ON IS THAT OUR SYSTEM OF FREEDOM
OF EXPRESSION IN THE UNITED
STATES HAS NEVER BEEN ONE THAT
WAS FREE FROM CONSEQUENCES FOR
WHAT YOU'VE SAID.
SO I HAVE THE RIGHT TO GO AND
PROTEST.
I HAVE THE RIGHT TO CREATE A
LEAFLET AND PASS IT ON STATE
STREET IN MADISON.
WELL WITHIN MY RIGHTS TO GO DO
THAT.
BUT IF I LIBEL YOU, IF I DEFAME
OR HURT YOUR REPUTATION YOU HAVE
EVERY RIGHT TO SUE ME.
THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES THAT
FOLLOW MY EXPRESSION, AND SOME
OF WHAT WE ARE HEARING NOW FROM,
YOU KNOW, PARLER, FOR INSTANCE,
OR SOME THREATS ON REDIT, IS
THAT FREE EXPRESSION MEANS
FREEDOM FROM CONSEQUENCES.
THAT'S NEVER BEEN WHAT OUR
SYSTEM IS ABOUT.
MANY, MANY PEOPLE PAY PRICES FOR
EXPRESSING THEMSELVES, WHETHER
THAT'S INCITEMENT TO VIOLENCE,
DEFAMING SOMEONE, ENGAGING IN
OBSCENITY, FOR INSTANCE.
THE IDEA THAT MY EXPRESSION
SHOULD BE COMPLETELY UNTETHERED
FROM ANY CONSEQUENCE HAS NEVER
BEEN WHAT OUR SYSTEM IS ABOUT,
AND HONESTLY OUR SYSTEM CANNOT
FUNCTION IF WE HAVE EXPRESSION
FREE FROM THOSE CONSEQUENCES.
>> AND TAKING THAT A STEP
FURTHER, YOU SAY INCITEMENT OF
VIOLENCE, SO THERE IS A
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PEACEFULLY
ASSEMBLING VERSUS WHAT HAPPENED
LAST WEEK.
>> RIGHT.
AND THAT'S WHERE THE BIG
QUESTIONS WE HAVE ARE WHEN
EXPRESSION CROSSES OVER INTO
ACTION.
AND IT IS A VERY -- IT'S VERY
DIFFICULT TO PROVE INCITEMENT
CASE.
BAR IS SET HIGH FOR WHAT IS AND
IS NOT INCITEMENT.
FIRST AMENDMENT HISTORY IS
LITTERED WITH PEOPLE WHO HAVE
DONE AND SAID AWFUL THINGS BUT
VERY PROTECTIVE OF THEIR
EXPRESSION.
BUT WHEN SPEECH CROSSES OVER
INTO ACTION THAT IS WHERE
GOVERNMENT CAN IMPOSE MUCH MORE
SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES, AND YOU
WILL SEE THAT IN THE MANY, MANY,
MANY CASES THAT WILL BE ARISING
FROM LAST WEEK'S INSURRECTION.
>> AND ALONG WITH IT THERE HAVE
BEEN MANY PARALLELS TO FREE
SPEECH DRAWN AROUND ASSEMBLING
AND VIOLENCE AND COMPARING
POLICE RESPONSE TO THE BLACK
LIVES MATTER PROTESTS THIS
SUMMER, WHICH WISCONSIN SAW A
NUMBER OF.
SHOULD THESE VERY DIFFERENT
GROUPS BE COMPARED OR IS THAT A
FALSE EQUIVALENCY?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK -- SO, WITH
BLACK LIVES MATTER, SUCH A MORE
SUSTAINED PRESENCE AND PROTESTS
ACROSS THE COUNTRY, HUNDREDS OF
JURISDICTIONS SAW THESE
PROTESTS.
AND I THINK YOU SAW MANY PEOPLE,
SOME NEWS MEDIA, TRYING TO DRAW
A LINE BETWEEN PEACEFUL PROTEST
AND VIOLENCE.
LOOTING, SETTING OF FIRES, THAT
SORT OF THING.
I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT
THAT WE DO THAT.
SO, LAST WEEK THERE WERE
PEACEFUL PROTESTORS MARCHING UP
AND DOWN STREETS IN THE CAPITAL
THAT DID NOT BREACH THE U.S.
CAPITOL.
IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THOSE
PEOPLE AND PROTECT THEIR
EXPRESSION RIGHTS.
YOU MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT THEY
HAD TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I DID, I
DID NOT, DO NOT BELIEVE THE
ELECTION WAS STOLEN.
BUT THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY
IT AND THEY DID SO PEACEFULLY.
I THINK THE PLACE -- I AM
WORRIED ABOUT A FALSE EE KWIF --
EQUIVALENCY, SETTING A FIRE IN A
DUMPSTER IN KENOSHA, WISCONSIN
AND BREACHING THE U.S. CAPITOL
WITH SOME -- SOME WEAPONS.
THERE'S A DIFFERENCE THERE.
BUT I THINK THE PLACE THAT WE
SHOULD LOOK AT THESE TWO
SEPARATE SETS OF PROTESTS
ALIGNED IS OUR RESPONSE TO THEM.
FRANKLY, I WAS ABSOLUTELY --
PEOPLE WERE WALKING OUT OF THE
CAPITOL LAST WEEK AFTER RIOTING
AND THEY WERE NOT ARRESTED.
YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOW GOING TO
EAU CLAIRE, WISCONSIN AND
ARRESTING SOMEONE.
WHY THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT
ARRESTED IN THE MOMENT IS PRETTY
STUNNING TO THINK ABOUT.
AND IT'S A QUESTION THAT WE
SHOULD ASK, BECAUSE CLEARLY OVER
THE SUMMER YOU SAW MANY, MANY,
MANY ARRESTS IN THE MOMENT, AND
IF WE ARE -- THERE IS SOME
ACADEMIC RESEARCH SHOWING WE DO
TEND TO HAVE MORE ARRESTS FOR
CAUSES ON THE LEFT THAN THE
RIGHT WHEN WE HAVE PROTESTS.
THAT IS A PLACE WE DON'T WANT TO
MAKE THE TWO EQUIVALENT BUT WE
NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE ARE
RESPONDING TO DIFFERENT CAUSES
AND WHETHER THINGS LIKE RACE
PLAY INTO THAT.
>> AND LAST WEEK THERE WERE MANY
IMAGES, SYMBOLS, MESSAGES OF
WHITE SUPREMACY FROM THOSE
INSIDE AND OUTSIDE THE CAPITOL.
SHOULD WE REDUCE THIS TO JUST AN
EXTREME MINORITY THAT HAD THOSE
IMAGES WITH THEM, OR SHOULD WE
BE UNDERSTANDING BIGGER IDEOLOGY
OF WHITE SUPREMACY WOVEN INTO
SOME OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING LAST
WEEK?
>> I THINK WE ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO
LOOK AT IT AS A LARGER ISSUE,
AND LOOK AT WHERE THAT KIND OF
THINKING EXISTS IN OUR LOCAL
COMMUNITIES.
YOU COULD SAY OH, BOY, SOMEONE
BROUGHT A CONFEDERATE FLAG INTO
THIS PROTEST AND USING THE FLAG
POLE TO CAUSE DAMAGE, STRIKING
SYMBOL TO SEE THE CONFEDERATE
FLAG IN A BREACHED U.S. CAPITOL.
BUT ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE CAME TO
D.C. FROM OUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES.
SO THEY CAME FROM WASHINGTON,
THEY CAME FROM OREGON, THEY CAME
FROM ARIZONA, THEY CAME FROM
WISCONSIN.
AND WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT AND
REALLY DEEPLY, DEEPLY
INTERROGATE HOW WHITE SUPREMACY
EXISTS WITHIN OUR COMMUNITY
INSTITUTIONS, OUR COMMUNITY
STRUCTURES.
SO, HOW DOES THIS PLAY OUT IN
OUR POLICE FORCES, IN OUR FIRE
DEPARTMENTS, IN OUR PUBLIC
EDUCATION SYSTEMS.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN WITHIN OUR
COMMUNITIES?
I FRANKLY OVER THE LAST FIVE
YEARS HAVE BEEN VERY SURPRISED
AND I GUESS CRITIQUE IS VERY
NAIVE, BUT SURPRISED AT THE
PERVASIVENESS OF THIS KIND OF
THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, WHEN I
BEGAN STUDYING FREE EXPRESSION I
FELT MUCH MORE PERVASIVE IN THE
1980S AND 1990S.
I DID NOT THINK IT EXISTED TO
THE LEVEL THAT IT DOES CLEARLY
EXIST TODAY, AND THAT'S
SOMETHING WE ALL HAVE TO LOOK
AT.
>> WISCONSIN'S ELECTIONS RESULTS
WERE CHALLENGED REPEATEDLY AND
UPHELD IN THE COURTS, YET SOME
OF WISCONSIN'S DELEGATION
REPEATED DEBUNKED CLAIMS OF
VOTER FRAUD, INCLUDING SENATOR
RON JOHNSON, WHO WAS CALLING FOR
FURTHER INVESTIGATION LEADING
INTO LAST WEEK.
AT THIS POINT, HOW DO WE RESTORE
FAITH IN OUR ELECTORAL PROCESS?
>> WE HAVE TO RESTORE FAITH BY
HOLDING THOSE CIVIC LEADERS
ACCOUNTABLE.
YOU KNOW, I THINK -- I THINK
THESE CALLS FOR UNITY AND A TIME
OF HEALING ARE NEVER GOING TO GO
FORWARD UNLESS WE HAVE TRUTH AND
ACCOUNTABILITY.
IF YOU LOOK AT SUCCESSFUL
RECONCILIATION EFFORTS, LIKE
POST APARTHEID, THEY DID NOT
COME WITHOUT TRUTH AND
ACCOUNTABILITY FIRST.
I DON'T KNOW IF WE CAN HEAL IF
WE CANNOT ALL GET BACK TO THE
TRUTH.
THE TRUTH IN WISCONSIN IS THAT
THERE WAS NOT FRAUD.
YOU KNOW, MAYBE AN INDIVIDUAL,
YOU KNOW, ACTOR HERE OR THERE,
BUT NO WIDESPREAD FRAUD THAT
WOULD CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THIS
ELECTION.
AND WE HAVE TO BE ABSOLUTELY
CLEAR ABOUT THAT.
I DO THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE, YOU
KNOW, WHEN THEY LOOK AT THIS,
THEY SHOULD LOOK AT IT IN A VERY
PERSONAL LEVEL.
SO, AS YOU KNOW, WE WERE HAVING
CALLS, YOU KNOW, MAYBE OUR OWN
HOME STATE U.S. SENATOR
OBJECTING TO THE RESULTS IN OUR
OWN STATE, THINK ABOUT NOT THE
VOTES OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO MAY
HAVE VOTED DIFFERENTLY, BUT
WHETHER YOUR OWN VOTE WOULD HAVE
BEEN DISENFRANCHISED.
IT'S A VERY PERSONAL ISSUE, IF
WE ARE SAYING THAT YOU KNOW,
THE, FOR INSTANCE, THE ABSENTEE
BALLOT THAT YOU COULD ARRIVE AT
YOUR POLLING PLACE BEFORE
ELECTION DAY AND CAST YOUR
ABSENTEE BALLOT, HOW I VOTED.
THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN
DISENFRANCHISED UNDER SOME OF
THE LAWSUITS PURSUED HERE.
SO ALL OF US WHEN WE CONSIDER
WHAT THE POLITICAL LEADERS ARE
SAYING AND THE TRUTHFULNESS OF
IT, THINK ABOUT OUR OWN VOTE AND
THE POWER OF OUR OWN VOTE.
THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT WAY
IN WHICH WE ARE ALL EQUAL IN
THIS COUNTRY, DON'T ALL HAVE THE
SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY TO THROW AT
A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, WE DON'T
ALL HAVE THE SAME VOICE, THE
SAME SOCIAL MEDIA FOLLOWING, BUT
WE ALL HAVE THE SAME VOTE.
AND SO ANY TIME ANYBODY WANTS TO
TAKE THAT VOTE AWAY FROM YOU,
WHETHER YOU ARE ON THE LEFT OR
THE RIGHT, YOU SHOULD BECOME
IMMEDIATELY SUSPICIOUS AND YOU
SHOULD LOOK VERY SKEPTICAL AT
WHAT IS BEING SAID, ANY ATTEMPT
TO DISENFRANCHISE YOU IS A
THREAT TO GOVERNMENT OF AND BY
THE PEOPLE.
IN THIS CASE IT HAPPENED TO BE
COMING FROM REPUBLICAN SENATORS,
WHAT HAPPENS IF IT COMES FROM
THE LEFT IN THE NEXT
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.
THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, YOUR OWN
VOTE AND HOW HARD IT SHOULD BE
TO STRIP THAT FROM YOU.
>> WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR IN
TODAY'S PROCEEDINGS IN CONGRESS
AND THE HOUSE AND ADDITIONALLY,
WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT IN THE
COMING DAYS AND POTENTIALLY
WEEKS, YOU KNOW.
WISCONSIN IS NOT IMMUNE FROM
HATE GROUPS, WE HAVE SEEN THE
PROUD BOYS LOCALLY, WE HAVE SEEN
HOME GROWN MILITIA GROUPS, YOU
KNOW, WHAT SHOULD WE BE FOCUSSED
ON?
>> I THINK WHAT ALL OF US SHOULD
BE FOCUSSED ON IS VERIFIED
INFORMATION COMING FROM
REPUTABLE OUTLETS.
I THINK IF YOU HAVE BEEN DOWN
THE RABBIT HOLE OF FOURCHAN AND
REDIT, GET OFF.
GO TO MORE VALID NEWS SOURCES IN
THE COMING DAYS.
TRY TO BALANCE YOUR INFORMATION
DIET IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE ALL
SUPPOSED TO BALANCE OUR FOOD
DIET.
YOU KNOW, I DO NOT LOVE GREEN
LEAFY VEGETABLES AND I DON'T
WANT TO MAKE NEWS MEDIA SEEM
LIKE GREEN LEAFY VEGETABLES BUT
WE CAN'T SURVIVE IF WE HAVE THIS
LIKE TOXIC SLUDGE FEEDING OUR
MINDS.
IN THE SAME WAY WE CAN'T SURVIVE
IF WE HAVE TOXIC SLUDGE FEEDING
OUR BODIES.
I THINK -- I DO THINK IT IS TIME
FOR A SENSE OF CALM AND
PREPAREDNESS SO NOT FEELING
ANXIETY ABOUT WHAT'S COMING BUT
CALLING ON OUR LEADERS TO ENSURE
THAT WE ARE READY.
YOU KNOW, YES, IT WAS A
JAW-DROPPING MOMENT TO SEE OUR
STATE CAPITOL BEING BOARDED UP
IN ADVANCE OF POTENTIAL VIOLENCE
THIS WEEKEND BUT THAT IS THE
RESPONSIBLE THING TO DO.
LOOKING AT IT, IT SADDENED ME
BUT I'M GLAD IT'S HAPPENING.
SO WE ALL SHOULD HAVE THAT SENSE
OF PREPAREDNESS, AND THEN WHAT
CAN WE EACH DO INDIVIDUALLY TO
RETURN TO A SENSE OF DECENCY, A
SENSE OF RESPECTING EACH OTHER
AS EQUAL WITHIN THIS DEMOCRACY,
REGARDLESS OF OUR DIFFERENT
VIEWS ON POLITICAL ISSUES, WHAT
CAN WE DO TO FIND THAT SENSE OF
WORKING TOGETHER.
AND IT'S FAIRLY EASY TO DO.
YOU KNOW, A LOT OF US HAVE
POLITICAL DIVISIONS IN OUR OWN
FAMILIES AND WE STILL LOVE THE
PEOPLE WE ARE DIVIDED FROM.
WE COME AT THAT WITH PEOPLE THAT
WE DON'T KNOW SO WELL AND STILL
COME FROM A PLACE OF RESPECT AND
UNDERSTANDING.
BECAUSE IF WE CAN'T DO THAT,
THEN WE OUGHT NOT HAVE THE POWER
WE HAVE IN THIS DEMOCRACY, IF WE
CANNOT BE RESPONSIBLE CITIZENS
CONSUMING INFORMATION THAT
ACTUALLY TRIES TO INFORM US,
THEN SHOULD WE HAVE THAT VOTE?
COULD WE, YOU KNOW, CAN WE BE IN
CHARGE OF OURSELVES IF WE ARE
NOT HAVING A BALANCED
INFORMATION DIET, A SENSE OF
DECENCY AND RESPECT.
I DON'T KNOW.
>> ALL RIGHT.
KATY CULVER OF THE CENTER OF
JOURNALISM ETHICS, THANK YOU
VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
ME.
IT WAS REALLY GOOD CONVERSATION
AND A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TIME
FOR ALL OF US.
>> FOR MORE FROM HERE AND NOW
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SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "NOON
WEDNESDAY."