Wisconsin Public Television Transcript: In Wisconsin Original Air Date: July 2006 Patty Loew: Welcome to our summer season of "In Wisconsin." This week, we're at Peninsula State Park in Door County. Hello, everyone. I'm Patty Loew. You know, this is the number one camping destination for Wisconsin. We're going to show you more from Peninsula State Park a little later in the program. But first, find out why some Green Bay suburbs chose to pass up a nearby drinking water supply for one more than 35 miles away. Man: I don't think that was ever a real issue as to a mayor or village president saying, "Dammit, we're going to do whatever it takes to avoid Green Bay." Loew: This mother's child has autism. Find out what the girl's therapist is doing that's music to her mom's ears. Woman: There is a song that came into her life, and she has become a different child. Loew: And do you remember learning in history class about the Great Butter Battle? Well, maybe not, so we'll take you back in time to the state skirmish over toast spread. Woman: There's no crime to bringing old yellow oleo to the state. (Woman eats something) That's the crime. Loew: All that coming up, "In Wisconsin." Loew: Peninsula State Park features beautiful views of Lake Michigan. It's a body of water that's not only popular as a vacation spot, but also as a source of drinking water. Lake Michigan is figuring prominently in an argument Green Bay and its suburbs are having over the best way to replace radium-contaminated well water. Man: I don't mind drinking this water, I do drink this water all the time. Pretty tasty, too. I don't mind drinking it. Art Hackett: Bob and Katie Van den Heuvel were among the first people to move into their subdivision in the rapidly growing Green Bay suburb of Bellevue. Katie Van den Heuvel: When we built our home almost 20 years ago, this was all field, all field. Hackett: Water for the Van den Heuvel's home and all the new ones in Bellevue is pumped from wells, but Bob Van den Heuvel, a realtor who also serves on Bellevue's planning commission, says that's no longer a viable option. Bob Van den Heuvel: The hardness is there, and also the EPA has indicated that we have too much radium in our water. Hackett: Radium is an element frequently found in hard water. It's linked to immune problems, anemia, and some forms of cancer. Katie Van den Heuvel: I'm not that particularly fussy about the taste. My contention is you don't know what the long-term ramifications are, so -- Hackett: Of the radium. Katie Van den Heuvel: Right. Bob Van den Heuvel: Bellevue probably has the most severe case of water problems, but so the surrounding communities have the same problem. : This is the solution to those problems. A pipeline which will run southeast all the way to Manitowoc. That city draws its water directly from lake Michigan. : This is the pipe. Each section is four feet around and 50 feet long. Each one costs between $6,000 and $7,000. The section of the pipeline that's this big around is about 35 miles long. : With installation, debt service, and other costs, it works out to about $110 million dollars plus another $$25 million to expand the water treatment plant. It should be complete and in service by the end of 2006. What may be debated beyond that point whether this represents the best in cooperation between local governments or the worst of in-fighting among them. : In my opinion it's a combination of urban/suburban fear. : John Brogan is a paper industry executive who served more than 25 years on the Green Bay water commission. That city is divided by a river and is on a bay. But the local surface water is not fit to drink. When the city of Green Bay and the suburbs built water systems, they relied on wells until the mid 1950's. : Green Bay and the few suburbs were drawing 13 million gallons a day off the aquifer, and it was dropping like a rock. : The solution then as now was a pipeline. In 1957 Brogan's father helped build a link to the clean lake Michigan water off Kewaunee. Brogan said when Green Bay stopped pumping water, the suburb's wells started to recover. : And bingo, they're flowing wells all over. Then it started to drop in the 1960's and drop in the 19 0's, -- 1980's, and then they had this water quality problem. As it dropped, it got more and more heavy metals in it. : Some of the local communities found out their water levels were dropping and we were basically mining water. We were chasing water. As you go down in the well, if the water quality isn't as good as it is when it's on the top. So you're drawing off like the bottom of the barrel. : Bellevue public works director Ron Umentum is the president of the central Brown County water authority. It's an association of six suburbs which banded together to build the pipeline. But before they decided to do that, the suburbs first approached the city of Green Bay about a combined water system. : Central Brown County water authority brought us proposals that would have had us serving them in a conventional way. In other words, using our pipe. : After all, Green Bay already had invested in the pipeline to Kewaunee and a treatment plant to process lake water. : Some of the biggest suburbs are adjacent to Green Bay's water. : But it turned out Green Bay wasn't alone in wanting to sell lake Michigan water. : Essentially I had picked up the phone and called them and said, look, if you are looking at different options, you might want to consider Manitowoc as one of your options. : Nilaksh Kothari says Manitowoc had just update t its water treatment plant in the late 1990's. To avoid a repeat of Milwaukee's crypto sporidium problem, they employed microfiltration. : We had provision for additional capacity to be added without adding new buildings. And at the same time when we build a microfiltration plant, we had also retired the other plant. And there was also a lot of additional radium level in the filtration facility as part of that project. : And we created the plant to be a regional water supplier. We didn't know who our customers would be, but we wanted to have a very easily expandable plant and decided on this technology. : Mayor Crawford predicts many cities will be looking to import lake water. If you live in one of those cities, he said it would be worthwhile to look at the struggles between Green Bay and its struggles. Crawford said people are used to the problems with water based on local water supplying local users. : The Green Bay operation wanted the people in the suburbs to pay for their deteriorating underground fract. We didn't have any such needs. First of all, our infrastructure is in great shape exare actively speaking, but more importantly, we were just in the process and had the desire to sell water. We didn't have any of the relationships that had been done over the years. : Green Bay had to be fair to the existing customers, which included the area's paper mills. : What the suburbs wanted was for us to sell them whole sail water at 43% below the cost that we were selling it to the mills at. : I think it was July of 2004 we opened up those bids, and it came out that Manitowoc could offer us a better up-front rate. Unfortunately, we still had to build this pipeline. : Brogan meanwhile says the economics of the deal will shift against the suburbs as the pipeline to Manitowoc ages and needs maintenance. : And when asked at some meetings about how they intend to provide for that, their answer was, we're not going to provide for it. Whenever anything wears out, we'll borrow more money. : As the pipeline crews worked their way towards the lake, the trench is open for less than a couple of hours of the the pipeline crews quickly bury the pipe and grade the surface smooth. The local officials are now trying to bury the dispute. : I don't think that was ever a real issue as to a mayor or a village president saying, damn it, you know, we're going to do whatever it takes to avoid Green Bay. : Well, I always hate to say the it was the result of a feud. I guess it was the result of a break in the negotiations, because I always think that maybe not today, but in the future, we have two pipelines, two systems that we can still probably enhance each system by an interconnect. : Who knows? Maybe someday the city and the suburbs that once turned their backs on etch other may be able to back each other up. : You know, we all want water. We all want good water, so I think the cost factor wasn't much of an issue. : And Bob Van den Heuvel said politicians might not realize people worry about other things besides cost when thinking about water, a safe and secure supply, and that all-important matter of taste. : Sometimes if I drink Green Bay water it's got more of a taste to it than this. This tastes pretty good. : An official with the D.N.R. says there are 42 other municipal water systems in the state under orders to reduce the radium levels in their water. It's uncertain how many of them can or will use Great Lakes water as an alternative. Many of us find peace of mind in nature, even when it gets a little drizzly. You're about to meet a mother who is desperately searching for peace of mind for her autistic daughter. She found it in an unlikely source, a hip-hop song. : 11-year-old Annie O'Brien hops on the morning school bus without a second to spare, but cutting it close like this is considered a wild success. : She would go to school late most days. : Becky O'Brien said it used to take hours to get Annie ready an off to school. : Once she woke up, she didn't know what to do next. : Didn't know what to do next because nothing comes easy for Annie. Her mom says Annie struggles with multiple cognitive disorders, including autism. Her mom says even slight changes that can come with getting ready, like new socks or shoes, can set her off. : She immediately falls apart and will become violent and hysterical, and it can lead to hours and hours of chaos. I used to be covered in bruises. She would kick me. I'd try to dress her physically, and she would just be pounding on me. : That's what getting ready for school used to be like until this man entered the picture. In-home therapist Greg Marshall. He was part of a team to help Annie and her family design a workable morning plan. Marshall says he got to know Annie by asking some simple questions. : What's your routine look like? And she said, well, my mom wakes me up. She says good morning, sunshine. Then she opens the blinds. : Armed with Annie's input and his own musical inclinations, Marshall set the child's get ready for school routine to song, and the light bulb went on. : This song is dedicated to Annie O'Brien. good morning Annie - - how are you doing girl - - : From the day Annie's song first played on her bedside CD player about two days ago, Annie O'Brien hasn't been the same. : Oh, my God! I mean, our life is entirely different. I mean, the man changed our lives. : When I get my clothes on - - I get to go to the kitchen - - : Now as Annie's song blasts its hip-hop beat each morning, Annie follows its tune. I take my meds because it makes me feel better - - : It now takes Annie 25 minutes to get up and get ready for school. No tears, no hysteria, and no violence, and her mom is calm and better able to direct the routine. : I can help you get it on. You have two minutes left. : Annie, I want to ask you, what has "Annie's song" meant to your mornings? : It has helped me so I get on time for the bus. : But it's more than that. : It's something for here her. I mean, it's called "Annie's song." Kids at school, this whole song has made her somewhat of a little celebrity, and because of her disabilities she wasn't, and isn't, a real popular kid with a lot of friends, but all of a sudden kids were like, oh, Annie, I'm so jealous of you. You are so lucky. And this is a kid who nobody had ever wanted to be with before. : You see that song create bridges to her and her teachers and to her and her classmates. It's amazing. : When staffers and the boss at the in-home autism treatment agency where Marshall worked heard the song, they knew their hip-hop therapist and fellow band members who produced Annie's song were on to something. : And it wasn't just the song. It was also the relationship-building elements of the music that was really intriguing to me. You know, I saw a little girl that was sort of on the fringes of her peer group, wasn't really connecting in ways that we had hoped, and all of a sudden she gained in great popularity when she had a song, "Annie's song." : And what so what did the boss, Dr. Andy Paulson, do about it? : What I did is hired them all and gave them jobs to create this music. : Please stand and welcome, the figureheads. [Applause] : And create they did producing a hip-hop CD that they viewed this winter. Greg Marshall's group, the figureheads, packed the Orpheum Theatre in Madison to kick off the new CD. every kid has a place - - throw your hands up - - : The group's songs include titles like manners and "bedtime," working on daily living skills just as any song does. The music also speaks to what's called regulation. That's what allows children to maintain a calm mood and recover from upset so they can connect and communicate with the people around them. this is how you get the blood flowing in your system." - : It builds relationships. making all the boys and girls be like wow - - this is crazy amazing stuff - - and guess what - - it's written especially for you so get up - - : What I think is really cool is it wasn't written for therapeutic intent. It was written for fun, to give voice to children and families. : It just gets to know them really simply. It's profound, but it's simple, and that's why it can be done in music. first I was in the classroom - - got detention because I got mad at my teacher's question - - : And the group's music and message is spreading, mostly through word of mouth they've sold more than a thousand CDs and performed at schools. : We actually got an email from a college stundent whose younger brother has autism, and she said for the first time I know there's people out there who really look at my brother. : It all started with a girl named Annie and her trouble getting out of the school in the morning. : Good job on time this morning. You have one minute to spare. : The last two years her life has done nothing but improve. The only thing I can say concretely is there's a song that came into her life, and she has become a different child. Big kiss. I love you. Have a wonderful, wonderful day. Great job. all right everybody - - it's time to go - - Green Bay what I need and put on my coat - - take a deep breath and step out the door - - brief in yourself - - uh-huh - - for sure - - : Easter seals Wisconsin is offering a new camp for autistic kids. It takes place in mid August in Wisconsin dells. You can find more details on our website at wpt.org/inwisconsin. Again, the address is wpt.org/inwisconsin. : We found a picnic spot here at peninsula state park which brings us to this week's Wisconsin's retroreport first produced in 1988. It takes us back in time to one of the most bitter fights in our state's history, the battle between butter and OLEO margarine. : 1967 was a tumultuous year in central Wisconsin, civil rights demonstrations, anti-war protests, and the OLEO wars. : Today we're in front of a Wisconsin supermarket asking people's reactions to the new legislative bill that has passed both the assembly and the senate which will make colored OLEO margarine legal in Wisconsin. : Have you ever used margarine before? : Yes, we have. : Are you in favor of making it colored in Wisconsin? : Yes, I certainly am. : Have you ever gone below the border and brought margarine in? : Uh-huh. : It was uncolored and we paid a task for the privilege. It's a dubious distinction, but in 1967 Wisconsin was the only state here that still wouldn't permit the sale of colored oleo action. The editor of the Wisconsin state journal at the time of the appeal remembers uncolored margarine as being unattractive, a very, very dead white with a gray undertone. : Before the law was repealed you could buy margarine here, but it was uncolored, and it came in a pliable plastic, or some kind of a plastic packaging with a little capsule in the top underneath the packaging, and what you would do is let it get to room temperature and break the capsule, and then you'd have to knead it. It really wasn't easy to get the color all the way through. It would streak. And when it first broke, it was really a hideous orange color. : OLEO regulations had been on the books since the late 1800s, not only to ensure some level of quality, but largely to protect a dairy industry threatened by a less expensive product that masqueraded as butter. Uncolored margarine had been taxed since 1931, but neither the lack of coloring nor the tax deterred housewives from using the lower-priced spread. It simply drove many of them to a life of crime. : This was brought to me by a neighbor that lives next door. I have to hold it? It was brought to me by a neighbor. She was not a criminal when she brought it, because there's no crime to bringing red and yellow OLEO to the state. That's the crime. : If anyone was going to Illinois or to Minnesota or Iowa, wherever, one would usually tell their friends that they were about to make the trip, and did you want me to bring you anything back, i.e., being margarine? : Have you ever used OLEO margarine? : Yes, I have. : Where have you gotten it before the bill was passed? : I probably shouldn't say. : You can say. : Various states around Wisconsin. : I would say this, you're considering higher taxes today, any tax that you would put on this spread is not going to stop the crime of smuggling and bootlegging. : By the mid 1960's the national battle over the sale of colored OLEO had been won by the consume her, except in Wisconsin where skirmishes erupted annually in the legislature. : I think, gentlemen, that this is probably the most important hearing that you're going to have in this year's legislature. This is an emotional issue. This is an issue that is surrounded by old cliches and tabues. But I think that you've got to once and for all strip this of everything and just decide this, what is best for Wisconsin and its people? : Although repeal of the ban was all but inevitable, some were slow to give up the fight. The state Senator of darlington represented a large constituency of dairy farmers, and he was out to prove that butter was indeed better. : Senator, in your opinion what are the advantages of butter over OLEO margarine as a spread? : Well, I think it's much more nourishing. I think it builds youth body-wise. I think it has a great deal of more energy into it, and it has really, honestly, it has a much better taste. : In the later stages of the fight in the legislature here, the Senator from darlington was loudly proclaiming that he could tell the difference between butter and OLEO. And of course, by then it was virtually impossible to tell. And there was staged, I've forgotten who did it, a very well-publicized test. : The taste test was staged by then state Senator Martin Schreiber. He was out to win a major battle that pitted his youth against his urban colleagues, his urban constituency against their rural ones, his confidence against their's. : As I recall we had butter and we taste tested OLEO as well as another which was a combination of OLEO and butter. So everything was going along swell from the standpoint of the taste test until the Senator walked in and said, I know the difference between OLEO and butter. He says, I can tell the difference. And I said, may I give you a test? Sure, he said. I said, would you close your eyes? Better than that, he said I'll do it blindfolded. Who has a blind fold? So a blind fold was produced, and we, in turn, blindfolded the Senator, and I gave him the taste test, and he promptly proudly identified the OLEO as butter, and from there on in I knew I had the battle won. : Ladies and gentlemen, in signing this bill it marks quite a milestone in the Wisconsin history. : The infamous taste test sounded the neggetnel for the OLEO ban, and in May of 1967 governor Knowles signed a new bill in Wisconsin. Colored margarine would now be sold in Wisconsin, but the tax going to dairy research. : And so now the deed has been done. On July 1 the citizens of Wisconsin will have the right to purchase yellow OLEO. : I don't care about margarine very much, but I think it is a long talk about nothing, really. I don't think it's such an important thing at all. : In 2004 the latest available figures U.S. residents consumed more margarine than butter, almost a pound more per capita. But butter advocates take heart. Since 1970 the amount of butter consumed has remained pretty steady through the years fluctuating between 4.5 and five pounds per capita. Meanwhile, during those same 35 years the amount of margarine consumed has declined by half, from 10.8 to 5.3 pounds per capita. That's our program from peninsula state park in Door County. For "In Wisconsin," I'm Patty Loew. Thanks for joining us. CAPTIONING PROVIDED BY RIVERSIDE CAPTIONING COMPANY www.closed-captioning.com Art Hackett: Bob and Katie Van den Heuvel were among the first people to move into their subdivision in Bellevue. Katie Van den Heuvel:We built our home 20, almost 20 years ago. This was all field. All field. Hackett:Water for the Van den Heuvels' home and all the new ones in Bellevue is bumped from wells. But Bob, a realtor who also serves on the plan commission, says it's no longer a viable option. Bob Ven den Heuvel:The hardness is there, and also the EPA has indicated that we have too much radium in our water. Hackett:It's an element in hard water. It"s linked to immune problems, anemia, and some forms of cancer. Katie:I'm not that fussy of the taste. My contention is that you don't know what the long-term ramifications of. Bob:Bellevue has the most severe case of water problems, but some of the surrounding communities have the same problem. Hackett:This is the solution to those problems. A pipeline which will run southeast all the way to Manitowoc. That city draws its water directly from Lake Michigan. This is the pipe. Each section is four feet around, and 50 feet long. Each one costs between 6 and $7,000. The section of the pipeline that's this big around is about 35 miles long. With installation, debt service and other costs, it works out to about $110 million, plus another $25 million to expand Manitowoc's water treatment plant. The project should be complete and in service by the end of 2006. What may be debated beyond that point is whether this represents the best in cooperation between local governments or the worst of infighting among them. John Brogan:In my opinion, it's a combination of urban-suburban fear and loathing. Hackett:John Brogan is the paper industry executive who served more than 25 years on the Green Bay Water Commission. That city is divided by a river and is on a bay. But the local surface water is not fit to drink. When the city of Green Bay and the suburbs built water systems, they relied on wells. Until the mid 1950s. Brogan:Green Bay and the few suburbs were drawing 13 million gallons a day off the aquifer, and it was dropping like a rock. Hackett:The solution then, as now, was a pipeline. In 1957, Brogan's father helped build the link to the clean Lake Michigan water off Kewaunee. He says when Green Bay stopped pumping water, the suburbs' wells started to recover. Brogan:Bingo, they had flowing wells all over. Then it started to drop in the 1960s, and drop in the 1980s, and then they had this water quality problem. As it dropped, it got more and more heavy metals in it. Ron Umentum:Some of the local communities are finding out that the water levels were dropping, and we were basically mining water, chasing water. As you go down in the wells the water quality is not as good as on the top. So you are drawing off the bottom of the barrel. Hackett:Public Works director Ron Umentum is the president of the Central Brown County Water Authority, it"s an association of six suburbs that banded together to build the pipeline. But before they decided to do that, the suburbs approached the city of Green Bay about a combined water system. Paul Jadin:Central Brown County water authority brought the proposals that would have had them serving them in a conventional way. Using our pipe. Hackett:After all, Green Bay had invested in the pipeline to Kewaunee and the treatment plant to process lake water. Brogan:Some of the biggest suburbs are adjacent to Green Bay's water. Hackett:It turned out Green Bay was in the alone in wanting to sell Lake Michigan water. Nilaksh Kothari:Potentially I had picked up the phone and called them, and said, "If you are looking at different options, you might want to consider Manitowoc as one of the options." Hackett:Nilaksh says Manitowoc had just updated its water treatment plant in the late1990s. To avoid a repeat of Milwaukee"s crypto sporidium outbreak, the plan included a state-of-the-art process called microfiltration. Kothari:The way the plan was laid out, we had provision for additional capacity to be added without adding new buildings. And at the same time, when they built the microfiltration plant, we had retired our old sand filtration plant. And there was a lot of additional level in the filtration facility as part of that project. Kevin Crawford:And we created the plant to be a regional water supplier. We did not know who our customers would be, but wanted to have a very easily expandable plant and decided on this technology. Hackett:Crawford predicts we will be entering an era where a lot of cities will want to import lake water. If you live in one of those cities, he says it would be worth while to pay attention to the struggles between Green Bay and its suburbs. Crawford says people are used to the economics of water with local water supplying local users. Crawford:Green Bay wanted the people in the suburbs to pay for the deteriorating underground infrastructure. We did not have any such needs. Ours is in great shape, comparatively speaking, but we had the desire to sell water. We didn't have any of the relationships that had been established over the course of years. Hackett:Green Bay in turn had to make sure its rates would be fair to existing customers, which included the areas' paper mills. Brogan:What the suburbs wanted was for us to sell them wholesale water at 42% below the cost that we were selling it to the mills at. Jadin:I think it was July of 2004, we opened up those bids, and it came out that Manitowoc could offer us a better up-front rate. Unfortunately, we still had to build this pipeline. Hackett:Brogan, meanwhile, says the economics of the deal will shift against the suburbs as the pipeline to Manitowoc ages and needs maintenance. Brogan:And when asked at some meetings how they intend to provide for that, their answer was we're not going to provide for it. Whenever anything wears out, we'll borrow more money. Hackett:As the pipeline crews work their way towards the lake, the trench is open for less than a couple hours. They quickly bury the pipe and grade the surface smooth. Local officials are trying to bury the dispute. Man:I don't think that was ever a real issue as to a mayor or village president saying, "Dammit, you know, we're going to do whatever it takes to avoid Green Bay." Jardin:Well, I always hate to say it's a result of a feud. I guess it was a result of a break in the negotiations. Because I always think that maybe not today, but in the future, we have two pipelines, two systems, we can still probably enhance each system by an interconnect. Hackett:Who knows? Some day maybe the city and the suburbs that once turned their backs on each other may be able to back each other up. Bob:We all want water, we all want good water. So they think the cost factor wasn't as much of an issue. Hackett:And Bob Van den Heuvel says politicians may not realize people worry about other things besides cost when thinking about water. A safe and secure supply, and that all-important matter of taste. Bob:Sometimes if I drink Green Bay water it has more, more of a taste to it than this. This is, it tastes pretty good. Loew:As in Brown County, many other cities face water supply and quality problems. An official with the Wisconsin DNR's Bureau of Drinking and Ground Water says there are 42 municipal water systems in the state under orders to reduce radium levels in their water. It's uncertain how many can or will use lake water as an alternative. Our next report deals with people searching for water. These folks are taking a different route to locating it. As reporter Frederica Freyberg found, they are turning to a man who uses an ancient art that's a bit hard to explain, and even tougher for some to believe. Toby Marcovich:Call the meeting to order. I'll ask the secretary call the roll. Frederica Freyberg:Recently retired, but long time UW Board of Regents president Toby Marcovich has presided over many important meetings, deciding urgent university policy. Marcovich:At the end of the day, make decisions based 100% for the best interests of the University of Wisconsin system. I have never -- Freyberg: Superior trial attorney has friends in high places. Tommy Thompson appointed Marcovich to the Board of Regents in 1997. Most of the fancy people you hang around with have any idea you come out with coat hangers and find water Marcovich:I don't think so. I've had enough trouble with those people as it is. Freyberg:He does what again? At locations across the north land, like on the Paul and Ginnie Walker Sheep Farm outside Superior, Toby Marcovich, man of letters, witches for water. He finds water under the ground using devining rods, with suit coat flapping, his big farm boots trudge slowly toward the spot. Marcovich:Here we go. Right here. This is a pretty good, strong pole. As you can see, the rods just crossed. Freyberg:Do that again. Marcovich:Using when he calls the cheap and easy method, Marcovich cuts a coat hanger into two L-shaped pieces to serve as his devining rod. These flower pots cover the working well head, where Ginnie Walker dug for water at Marcovich's devine direction. Ginnie Walker:I talked to enough reputable people, and about how Toby witches the wells. They told me stories how they could not find water at their houses and Toby came out and found water for them. Freyberg:Skeptics abound of course. Marcovich:A little slower-- Freyberg:I gave it a shot. It didn't work. Marcovich:Some people got it and some people don't. You probably don't believe in Santa Claus either, I bet. Freyberg:What do you attribute that to, your ability? I tried it, I don't have it. What is it? Marcovich:Oh, my good looks and intelligence, probably. I don't have a clue. I have no idea. Freyberg:But theories about what it is abound, too. Marcovich:Some people think that under ground water that flows may create an electrical charge, positive or negative that would, by magnetism, move the rods. I don't know that that's a fact. Keith Lind:I could drill anywhere on the property and get a well. Freyberg:For most professional well drillers, it's open and shut. Lind:I would rather rely on what I know. I know in what formations the water comes out of. and I know how to find it. All us drillers in the area know how to find it that way. Freyberg:In fact, the unknown surrounding water witching, or dowsing, creates an aura of mysticism that makes many drillers just plain nervous. Freyberg:Have you ever tried it? Lind:No. Freyberg:Why? Lind:Scared of them. Freyberg:It's thought to be as old as biblical days. The term water witching reportedly derived from a douser's use of sticks pulled off witch hazel trees, but some believe it's more sinister. Lind:A lot of people get really concerned about the witch part of witching, as a witchcraft, as a witchcraft. Marcovich:Do you expect me to come in on a broom or something, and land on the spot? Freyberg:Do you have any other powers? Marcovich: Yeah, but I don't want to get on camera with those. : I don't think that was ever a real issue as to a mayor or a village president saying, damn it, you know, we're going to do whatever it takes to avoid Green Bay. : I don't mind drinking this water, and I do drink this water all the time. Pretty tasty, too. I don't mind drinking it.