>> I'm Doug. I'm 17.
>> I'm Brian Flynn, and I'm 29. >> I guess we're here today
just ten years apart but we have so much in common.
>> I work with kids on a daily basis who unfortunately have
been victims of abuse. And you know, I can relate to
the young ones--even younger than you, just as I can relate
to people my own age or older who have been abused.
And I'm glad to be able to feel that way.
>> Yeah. >> I was 13 years old, and I
met a priest who was introduced to me by my mother, who I was
very close with. And she happened to be sick with
cancer at the time. And because, like I said, he was
introduced to me through my mother, I trusted him and
really, to tell you the truth, looked up to the guy and put him
on a pedestal. So it was like a tight, tight
connection, and I thought, "Hey, you know, this guy's cool,
because my parents trusted him and spoke so highly of him, and
he would come to the house, and it was just--it was a real
natural connection." And this is how I felt when I
was 13 years old. >> And he took advantage of
all that trust. >> Definitely, but I thought
at that point--which is differently than I feel now--
that priests do not do anything wrong.
>> Mm-hmm. >> So it started in that.
It started that way. >> Mm-hmm.
A lot--a lot with the trust issue with mine--mine was from
my step-grandfather. It was, you know, as normal relationship as any kid would have.
And just for him to take advantage of that trust--he
almost made it a game, like he got--it was more than something
sexual. It was more of a power trip
or saying, "I can do this to a four-year-old, because I can
manipulate him." And just--that's what I guess
gets me today, because I have little brothers and sisters.
And I look at them and just go, "How can you do that to someone
so innocent?" I think it's hard for younger
guys as well as older guys to come out and say, you know,
"I was sexually molested by a male," because, I mean, there
are a lot of kids that'll come out and go, "Am I gay?
Am I straight? What's going on?
Like, you know he touched me, and my body reacted to it."
It's not your fault. You know what I mean?
No one controls how your body reacts to anything.
>> No. >> You know?
And I'm sure my sexuality-- and I mean there's just--
there's a lot of kids that-- that's a big fear, especially
going through high school. >> It's a terrible,
terrible thing. Do you remember your--
your abuse experiences? >> It happened when I was
between the ages, from what I can remember, three to five and
then when I was, like, six or seven, my grandmother and my
grandfather got a divorce, and he dropped out of my life.
Never saw him again. Supposedly he worked in the
school district that I was at, and I saw him there like two or
three times that I can recall, but never got that card, never
got that phone call. Grandpa was gone and I didn't
understand why. And then I was in seventh grade,
and my oldest youngest brother right now turned five years old
and I started getting flashbacks.
I started getting not everything at once but, you
know, it was just what was going on, and my grades were slipping,
and I was just going, "Who am I? Does this happen to everyone?"
And I was scared to death to even question.
And I was sitting in class one day, and all of a sudden,
it hit me. "Oh--oh, my God, this--
this happened to me." And the first thing I did was,
I went down and I talked to a counselor that I was very
close to, you know. And she immediately said, "Okay,
we're gonna call your mom." My mom is the most supportive
woman you'll ever find on the face of the earth about these
things, thank God. Yet that question was still in
my mind, "Is she gonna believe me?"
I mean, it was just--it was just one of those things where I
knew that she would support me in every way, yet those words
were the hardest that ever came out of my mouth to say.
>> So you met with your counselor.
Did you feel comfortable talking to your counselor?
>> I did. I knew her from previous--
I actually had her in, like, a homeroom-type thing in the
beginning of the day. >> Well, that's good for you.
>> Yeah. >> How many times did you talk
to your counselor before you finally talked to your mom?
>> I talked with her that once, and she said, "Okay, we're gonna
call your mom." And so I went through for, like,
in the middle of the day-- and I told like five people
in a matter of two hours, because I told the counselor and
I told my mom and my mom told my dad--type thing.
It was like a chain reaction. And I didn't get any negative
support, and I think that's what was the biggest thing for me.
>> That's a huge thing. I mean, I didn't talk to people
about it, because I didn't think that they would believe me.
>> And like, I know what you're saying for that, but I was to
the point in my life where I walked into that counselor's
room and I said, "Even if you don't believe me, I'm gonna go
to someone else." I don't--I was to the point
where it didn't matter if you believe me.
I just had to talk about it. You know, that's fine that you
don't believe me. I'll go to someone else that
does. That's the frame of mind that I
was in. >> Yeah, that's an interesting
scenario you were in. >> And I have, I believe,
a strong enough core of friends--and even friends that
can relate to it--to say, "You know, even if I didn't say
something to someone that said something to me, I know as soon
as I walked around that corner, one of my good friends would be
in their face about it, saying 'How dare you?'"
One of the hardest days of my life was, they put on
a talk-and-awareness about it at my high school.
>> Uh-huh. >> And I sat in on it my
freshman year, and the next year, they asked me to speak
at it. And it was one of the hardest
things just to see my closest friends looking back at me.
And not one of them gave me a negative result.
And to this day, I have friends that come up to me and say, "It
happened to me too, and I don't know who else to turn to."
>> There's a significant difference in how we deal with
abuse, based on our generation, you know.
And you and I have--there's some, you know, there's some
space between us. And I work with kids who are
11 to 17, and they are so much more open about talking about
serious, serious stuff like abuse than my peers when I was
in high school. Because when I was in high
school, talking to somebody about something serious like
that first of all meant you were, you know, a wuss--as they
would probably say back when I was in high school--or that
you know, that I'm a man, that I should be able to take care
of this stuff on my own. >> Yeah, exactly.
>> Or that I'm, you know, putting problems on them.
And that's--so I just want to say one thing.
I had to really do a lot of searching to find people that
were supportive of me, because I knew I had to deal with it, and
I knew I would go to any length to find the people.
I knew the people that I needed who would be supportive were
out there, but it was a struggle to search for them, because
it was so hard, as you know. I lost a lot of friendships.
>> Yeah, I know what you're saying for that, and if you do,
they're not your real friends. That's something so many high
schoolers need to understand, that you don't need all these
fake friends. You just need a strong core of
them. And even a good friend of mine
that just--that told, that came out and said that this happened
to him, his mom wasn't understanding, and that
tore me up. And just saying--because she
didn't understand why he didn't tell then, you know?
There's so much ignorance that floats around.
People come up to me and, "Why didn't you tell then?"
>> Yeah, I mean if you would have been able to talk about
it, you would have. >> Exactly.
The people that say, you know, "It was happening to you for
so many years. If you wanted it to stop,
you'd tell." [...].
Complete and utter--it just-- you don't know how you're gonna
react unless you're put in that position.
I mean, you said your mother died?
>> Yeah. >> I lost my father my freshman
year to suicide, and, you know, people come up to me and they
say, "How do you deal with all this stuff?"
You don't know how you're going to deal with it.
When you've cried your last tear and you still go on,
that's the day you know that you're gonna be okay, you know?
You just gotta find something to hold support with, you know,
to find strength in other people if you can't find it in
yourself. >> Yeah, never give up.
>> Yeah, exactly. I was brought up going to
Take Back the Night rallies, going to, you know, just
everything, you know? There were no signs.
There was nothing to be told. There's no story behind it.
It was just a man taking advantage of somebody's trust.
>> Of the whole entire family. >> Exactly.
I mean, he had everyone played for a fool from day one.
>> I mean, I had so much misplaced anger towards my
father. You know, "Why did you--
how come you didn't know what was going on?
Why was it so easy for me-- you know, why did you approve so
much for me to be spending time with this man?"
And, you know, I had to--I needed to develop some sort of
support network so that throughout the challenges I had
developing a new relationship with my father.
Like, I didn't realize when I first came forward with this
how much it affected my father and my stepmother and my sister.
And it--it really, really had a negative impact on them.
And so I realize that I really needed to make sure that,
you know, I figure out where this anger's coming from
towards my family and how can I treat them differently and
become okay with what happened to me and find better ways to
deal with my anger. You know, because it was--man,
like today I'm a very--seems like I'm a little bit tense
right now, but I'm most--most of the time, I'm pretty laid
back and I'm very calm. But when I was going through
high school and during my abuse experience, I was so volatile,
man. >> Really.
>> I got into vandalism. I was violent towards other
people. My father and I fought
constantly, physically. >> Mm-hmm.
>> I was so pissed off with the world, and I didn't even realize
at that time what kind of impact the sexual abuse had
on me. And I wasn't even ready at
that time to even admit that it was happening to me.
>> Did you ever come face-to-face after you said
your piece--after you said, "I'm a victim," and came
to rest with your family? Did you ever come face-to-face
with him? >> I did.
>> Did you? >> Yeah, and it was
the hardest-- >> Was it unexpected or did
you know, "I'm gonna go to this place and I'm gonna see this
person here"? >> It was--it was--well...
[clears throat] As you know--as your experience,
you know, being abused by your grandfather is just as serious,
but, you know, the dynamics behind your grand--the dynamic
behind your grandfather and the dynamic behind this priest were
significantly different. And I had to go through a pretty
extensive process with the archdiocese to attempt to hold
this priest accountable. And one of the ways--and I
believe it's very, very-- I don't believe that one of the
ways that they thought would be--they thought that me
confronting this priest would be helpful.
I was able to deal with it, because I have, you know,
because today my stepmother's very supportive of me.
>> That how I feel. They want me to--they want me
to go up to this guy's door and look him in the eye and sit
down and have, you know, coffee with him.
I'm not going to do it. >> You know, I knew about this
meeting for, you know, a week. I didn't sleep for one week.
And I--you know, it was the hardest experience I think I've
ever been through, aside from actually being abused by
this man. And I think that the archdiocese
did a real poor job of facilitating the meeting.
And also I think it's really, really, really poor to bring
the perpetrator and the victim together.
>> See, that's exactly how I feel.
>> But there are other, you know, there are other ways
to confront them, like writing a letter.
>> The man and I live 20 minutes from each other in the
same city and everything, and I've never once seen him, you
know, at the grocery store, out to eat, and I'm scared to death
to see him out to eat. >> Are you scared because
you don't know how you would respond?
>> Exactly. >> The man is tinier than me.
>> Yeah. I'm not four years old anymore.
>> No, you're not. >> I'm not afraid anymore.
You know, if I saw him at a restaurant, I'd probably go up
to him and say, "Remember me?" type thing, and I mean--
it's just that there's a lot of anger still with me.
>> I can relate. >> And I don't and I couldn't--
I couldn't go up to the door with a counselor and say,
"Hey, we need to talk." >> Yeah.
>> I don't want to like the man again.
I don't ever want to have something to do with him,
you know? And, I mean, maybe that's
the wrong way to think, but that's how I feel.
>> That's--that's okay. You gotta find a way--you gotta
find a way inside yourself that you're comfortable with in
regards to how you deal with this guy.
It's got to be your way, man. He hurt you pretty big time,
and it's not okay. >> Yeah.
>> But you know, I just--I want to, you know--you remind me of,
you know, back when I was in high school, which is almost
over ten years ago. You know, if I would have told--
if I would have told somebody about what was happening
to me, I know that my-- the friends that I had at that
time would have thought violence was the answer.
And again, I'm really thankful that that never was played
out. I'll never be able to forgive
this man, I don't think, at this point in my life.
But I don't believe--I mean, he's going to--he will have
consequences for actions. >> Exactly.
And that's what I feel. I mean, and for me, I think just
for him to be just embarrassed, you know, in front of his
friends--you know, in front of a group of people--would just be
so much better than me, you know, waiting outside his door
until he stepped out and punch him in the face or something
like that. I mean, that's something
I don't want to do. I'd rather take it to
a different level somewhere. I mean, that bloody nose
is going to heal, but for him to be embarrassed in front of his
friends at his favorite restaurant or something,
is something that he'll have to deal with the rest of
his life. And I know consequences
are coming. He's never been criminally
brought to justice, I guess. I don't want him to be.
It--that's something that's totally irrelevant to me.
He knows what he did. >> Someone asked us if we feel
if we could--if we'll ever be able to heal if justice
isn't served. >> Mm-hmm.
>> What do you think about that? >> The thing with me is, I don't
ever want to completely heal, so to speak.
You know, I don't ever want to say it's completely out of my
mind. I don't want to forget it.
It's something that's been so powerful and something that
I've turned so negative into something so positive, I don't
ever want to forget it. It's like, I mean, that's the
reason we have history class now today, so we don't repeat
the mistakes that previous people have made.
I mean, an alcoholic father can teach an alcoholic son to be
an alcoholic. An abuser can teach a victim to
also be an abuser when he grows up.
I don't ever want to be that person.
I know I will never, ever be that person.
>> You and me both. >> Exactly.
>> And that's a good, good, good point.
You know, and just even talking to you, hearing youth, you
know, express their--you know, share their histories and
their experiences with me, you know, it's a help.
I feel a lot--I feel uplifted listening to you talk, man,
and I appreciate that. It's good to talk about
this stuff. And I think people--a lot
of people, some of them who I know very well, feel that
abuse should, you know, be forgotten about--
>> Yeah, exactly. >> And not talked about.
>> It's what's--like the type of people that say,
"It happened; it's done with. Forget about it."
You can't forget about it. It's okay that you're talking
about this finally. >> If you speak to someone
who's not supportive, it's okay. It's not your fault.
Find someone else that's supportive.
>> Exactly. >> And if people like you and I
and other people who agree with what we're saying can make
themselves available to be supportive of people that have
been abused, then we'll really change the cycle.
>> You and I can talk one-on-one right now and have ten years
in between us and have no problem with it, yet when
a ten-year-old is going up to someone, a teacher so to say,
that's 50 or 60, that generation could cause conflict, because
when they were that age, you didn't talk about it,
you know? And they could be looking
at it through the point, saying that, "Well, it happened
to me. I got through it.
I'm fine." And maybe they're really
not fine or they still have to communicate with it.
That's my biggest thing is, you don't find someone that believes
you, go to someone else. >> I'm seeking--I'm seeking out
every imaginable resource to help me push this, my
experience, forward so that the Catholic Church can be held
accountable for what they've done.
And some days are easier than others, but I know that
good is gonna come out of it. >> Mm-hmm.
I would hate for my school to ever come up to me and say,
"You know, Doug, we support you 100% on what you're doing,
but we don't want you to bring up our school's name,
you know, because it would affect our school," because
that's a bunch of junk too, because it happens in
every high school. >> Everywhere.
I don't think this segment is just about me and you.
It's about everybody. >> Exactly.
>> And, you know, there's always gonna be situations that are
tougher than mine, and... >> Exactly.
>> Anything--no matter what, no matter what, no matter how bad,
you know, someone's abuse is, there's always--
>> Someone else's. >> To get--well, there's
always someone else's that's worse, and there's always, no
matter how bad it is, there's always a solution and there's
always hope. There's always the possibility
to get through it and to enjoy your life, you know?
Do you consider yourself a survivor?
>> Completely. >> I think there's a big
difference between-- >> A victim and a survivor.
>> A victim and a survivor, and I think we need to be survivors.
>> Exactly. I don't want to be
labeled as a victim. You hear the word "victim," and
I think "weak." And I think, "Wow, that kid
has been through a lot, and I feel really sorry."
I don't want people to feel sorry for me.
>> So we can move on. >> Exactly.
I don't--I don't want a pity party when there's other
people that need that type of support.
I don't have time for this. I have to get moving.
You know, that type of thing, but I cherish every moment
that I have. I'll look outside up at the sky
or something, and I'll just be like, "This is why I'm not
a victim anymore." You know, you almost feel at
peace with everything, yet I go, "Tomorrow's a new day, and I
don't know what I'm gonna have to deal with tomorrow."
>> When I let my sometimes obsessiveness about my abuse
control my life, it's not a good thing.
>> Yeah. >> It's probably one of
the worst things that I could ever--that I've ever experienced
is being abused by a priest in the situation I was in
and seeing how it's affected my family and learning how many
people have been affected by the same situations I've been
involved in and also situations like yours.
I just--it kills me, but I need to find a balance,
you know. And that's what I think I'll
be working, you know, towards my whole life.
But, you know, I have--there's a time when you need to take
a break from it, because you have to take care of yourself,
you know. How do you feel about your
future in regards to, like, do you--how do you see this--
your experience being abused affect you?
>> I used to look at it-- >> Accomplishing what you really
want to accomplish. >> I used to look at it in
a negative way. Now it's all positive because
of shows like this from Take Back the Night rallies.
I have people in my school that I'm not even that good of
friends with, but they feel comfortable coming up talking
to me, and that's the best feeling in the world.
Right now it's not easy to talk about, in any means, but every
time you do, it gets a little easier.
>> A little bit easier. That's a good point.
Yeah, well, man, like, I admire you for being strong.
>> Mm-hmm. >> I mean, I couldn't, for me to
have taken in my experiences into my high school, you know,
it would have been-- I couldn't do it, you know.
>> I know there's people out there right now that are--that
are older than me, older than you, that are dealing with this,
and they haven't told anyone. And they're going, "Well,
I'm this age, you know. It doesn't matter.
I'll just get through it." No, call a counselor,
you know what I mean? You don't have to be
as public as you and I are. I've talked to a counselor
about this, and it didn't matter if she was a counselor,
if she was a teacher, if she was someone that I just met.
I would have told that person because I trusted her.
I have a strong enough core of friends, I have people that
believe me, and I have a wonderful, supporting family.
>> And you are finding your own individual way of dealing with
this. And if it's making you happy,
you know, I would stick with it. And I think what we can tell
whoever is watching this is that whatever route you have to
take to feel better about yourself and to feel better
about the situation, that's the route that you should take.
>> Yeah, I mean, there's no right or wrong way to deal with
this, but it all starts-- >> Well, you got to talk
about it first. You got to get it out--
out of the bag, you know. >> And I think that's what
people just need to understand is, it's gonna get better.
It's gonna take that magic word of time, but it's gonna get
better. And some people may be at peace
with it, and they can say, "I want to trust this person
again," and that's fine too. It's just a personal opinion
to me, where he'll never be Grandpa to me again.
He'll never be a part of my life, and that's something else
that he's lost. No, we had a great relationship.
That's something he's never gonna get back, as I'm sure you
feel about your priest. It's just--it's a shame.
It really is. >> They've abused their power.
>> Exactly, and maybe that's all the punishment they need for
that, but... >> In no way, I think, would I
expect people that have been abused to think that it's
an easy process to heal from, but it gets easier.
>> That's maybe how we should end this is, just saying that
that's all you have to do is just tell someone and, I mean,
yeah, you got to get mad. You got to go through so many
different emotions that you got to talk about it.
It all comes down to that. I mean, I've shed tears over
this, you know. I've swore over this, you know.
And days like today, I can smile about this, and it's probably
the best thing. >> Yeah.
>> I agree with you.
>> Yeah. >> Thank you.