00:00:00:00 00:00:01:11 >> We all think we know 00:00:01:11 00:00:02:22 what government is. 00:00:02:22 00:00:03:25 >> How it works 00:00:03:25 00:00:05:04 and what it does. 00:00:05:04 00:00:06:16 >> But what is it really? 00:00:06:16 00:00:07:20 What do we mean 00:00:07:20 00:00:09:08 by "government"? 00:00:09:08 00:00:10:26 >> Is it this? 00:00:10:26 00:00:12:19 >> Or this? 00:00:12:19 00:00:13:16 >> Are these people 00:00:13:16 00:00:14:24 the government? 00:00:14:24 00:00:16:06 >> Are you? 00:00:16:06 00:00:17:05 >> These are just some 00:00:17:05 00:00:18:05 of the questions we'll try 00:00:18:05 00:00:19:10 to answer for you today. 00:00:19:10 00:00:21:10 >> On Engage. 00:00:26:23 00:00:27:28 >> Hi, I'm Paloma. 00:00:27:28 00:00:29:09 >> And my name's Zach. 00:00:29:09 00:00:30:24 Places for a judge, a witness, 00:00:30:24 00:00:32:08 a jury. 00:00:32:08 00:00:33:08 Even if you've never been 00:00:33:08 00:00:34:17 to a courtroom like this before, 00:00:34:17 00:00:35:18 it's a pretty familiar sight 00:00:35:18 00:00:37:00 from movies and TV. 00:00:37:00 00:00:38:01 >> Governments need legal 00:00:38:01 00:00:39:00 systems for interpreting 00:00:39:00 00:00:40:05 and enforcing the law. 00:00:40:05 00:00:41:05 In Wisconsin, there are 00:00:41:05 00:00:42:11 hundreds of municipal courts 00:00:42:11 00:00:43:20 and hundreds of circuit courts 00:00:43:20 00:00:45:11 for our 72 counties. 00:00:45:11 00:00:46:14 >> But what about the 11 00:00:46:14 00:00:47:29 Indian tribes within our state? 00:00:47:29 00:00:49:00 As sovereign nations 00:00:49:00 00:00:49:29 within our borders, which 00:00:49:29 00:00:51:12 legal systems apply to them? 00:00:51:12 00:00:52:19 >> Well, it turns out, 00:00:52:19 00:00:55:22 they have their own. 00:00:55:22 00:00:57:03 >> All rise. 00:00:57:03 00:00:58:24 >> In recent years, Wisconsin's 00:00:58:24 00:01:00:09 Indian tribes have expanded 00:01:00:09 00:01:02:26 their tribal court systems. 00:01:05:00 00:01:06:13 In northern Wisconsin, federal 00:01:06:13 00:01:07:20 courts ruled that Wisconsin's 00:01:07:20 00:01:09:22 Ojibwe tribes retained the right 00:01:09:22 00:01:11:16 to hunt, fish and gather 00:01:11:16 00:01:14:06 on their former lands. 00:01:14:06 00:01:15:14 The tribes were then faced with 00:01:15:14 00:01:16:29 the task of regulating their 00:01:16:29 00:01:20:10 harvest of natural resources. 00:01:20:10 00:01:22:08 >> The federal court ruled 00:01:22:08 00:01:24:04 that besides having the right 00:01:24:04 00:01:26:07 to use or harvest the resource, 00:01:26:07 00:01:27:20 that the tribes had retained 00:01:27:20 00:01:29:19 that part of their sovereignty 00:01:29:19 00:01:31:28 on those rights to be able 00:01:31:28 00:01:33:17 to self-regulate, as sovereign 00:01:33:17 00:01:35:16 governments, to regulate their 00:01:35:16 00:01:37:10 own people when they were 00:01:37:10 00:01:39:09 exercising their rights. 00:01:39:09 00:01:40:27 So there were authorizations 00:01:40:27 00:01:42:16 for tribal law enforcement 00:01:42:16 00:01:44:15 and tribal courts 00:01:44:15 00:01:47:01 to adjudicate violations. 00:01:47:01 00:01:48:15 >> The establishment of courts 00:01:48:15 00:01:50:11 started as a conservation court, 00:01:50:11 00:01:52:21 if you will, enforcing the rules 00:01:52:21 00:01:54:06 governing hunting, trapping, 00:01:54:06 00:01:57:01 gathering and fishing. 00:01:57:01 00:01:58:01 >> In the development of these 00:01:58:01 00:02:01:01 conservation courts, the tribes 00:02:01:01 00:02:03:21 have expanded their jurisdiction 00:02:03:21 00:02:06:02 to include family issues, 00:02:06:02 00:02:08:21 to include civil dispute issues 00:02:08:21 00:02:09:27 on the reservation. 00:02:09:27 00:02:11:27 These are things that the tribe 00:02:11:27 00:02:14:15 never gave up the power to do. 00:02:14:15 00:02:16:01 They just didn't have 00:02:16:01 00:02:17:12 the mechanism to do it. 00:02:17:12 00:02:18:11 They didn't have 00:02:18:11 00:02:19:06 the judicial system. 00:02:19:06 00:02:20:23 But now that they have them, 00:02:20:23 00:02:22:19 they can use it for purposes 00:02:22:19 00:02:24:03 other than 00:02:24:03 00:02:27:24 the conservation laws. 00:02:27:24 00:02:29:03 >> As the Ojibwe tribal courts 00:02:29:03 00:02:31:12 grew, Wisconsin's other tribes 00:02:31:12 00:02:33:00 also began to expand their 00:02:33:00 00:02:35:08 court systems. 00:02:35:08 00:02:36:13 >> Tribes are starting 00:02:36:13 00:02:38:07 to do more things on their own. 00:02:38:07 00:02:39:24 Tribal courts were in their 00:02:39:24 00:02:41:05 infancy stage, and everything 00:02:41:05 00:02:42:19 was growing, you know, 00:02:42:19 00:02:43:16 we started taking on 00:02:43:16 00:02:44:23 more responsibilities 00:02:44:23 00:02:45:27 at the same time. 00:02:45:27 00:02:47:00 >> One of the things 00:02:47:00 00:02:48:08 that has been happening 00:02:48:08 00:02:49:24 over the last 25 years, 00:02:49:24 00:02:51:17 is that the tribes have had 00:02:51:17 00:02:53:01 the resources now that they 00:02:53:01 00:02:55:09 haven't had for 200 years. 00:02:55:09 00:02:56:21 And they have the resources now 00:02:56:21 00:02:58:17 to develop the institutions 00:02:58:17 00:03:00:17 within their communities, that 00:03:00:17 00:03:03:19 define what a government is. 00:03:06:06 00:03:08:00 >> Each tribe that entered into 00:03:08:00 00:03:09:18 a treaty negotiation 00:03:09:18 00:03:11:14 was considered a nation. 00:03:11:14 00:03:13:01 And since they are a nation, 00:03:13:01 00:03:14:04 they develop 00:03:14:04 00:03:15:23 their own ordinances. 00:03:15:23 00:03:16:25 So Bad River will have their own 00:03:16:25 00:03:19:00 tribal car license, for example. 00:03:19:00 00:03:20:08 Lac Courte Oreilles 00:03:20:08 00:03:21:18 will have their own licence. 00:03:21:18 00:03:22:28 Oneida has Oneida Nation. 00:03:22:28 00:03:24:10 Menomonie Nation. 00:03:24:10 00:03:25:17 Ho-Chunk Nation. 00:03:25:17 00:03:26:25 >> There are 11 sovereign 00:03:26:25 00:03:28:06 nations within, basically, 00:03:28:06 00:03:29:26 the state of Wisconsin. 00:03:29:26 00:03:31:09 So you have actually, 00:03:31:09 00:03:32:18 12 sovereign nations 00:03:32:18 00:03:33:29 to deal with in such a little, 00:03:33:29 00:03:35:27 small area such as the state 00:03:35:27 00:03:38:04 of Wisconsin. 00:03:38:04 00:03:39:07 >> And we're all different, 00:03:39:07 00:03:40:16 which I think is something 00:03:40:16 00:03:41:22 that a lot of individuals 00:03:41:22 00:03:43:00 don't really seem to understand. 00:03:43:00 00:03:44:12 They try to put tribes 00:03:44:12 00:03:45:29 underneath a big umbrella 00:03:45:29 00:03:47:23 of Native Americans. 00:03:47:23 00:03:48:25 But when it comes 00:03:48:25 00:03:49:29 to court systems, 00:03:49:29 00:03:51:11 we have very different laws. 00:03:51:11 00:03:52:12 >> Each one of them have 00:03:52:12 00:03:53:19 their own system of justice. 00:03:53:19 00:03:54:26 And it was set up 00:03:54:26 00:03:57:01 according to their people. 00:03:57:01 00:03:58:05 And each one of them 00:03:58:05 00:03:59:26 have their own governments. 00:03:59:26 00:04:01:02 >> When we talk about working 00:04:01:02 00:04:02:07 with tribal courts, 00:04:02:07 00:04:03:09 we're talking about working 00:04:03:09 00:04:04:12 with the tribal courts in these 00:04:04:12 00:04:05:20 individual sovereign nations. 00:04:05:20 00:04:06:22 So we have to have relations 00:04:06:22 00:04:08:01 with each of those sovereigns, 00:04:08:01 00:04:09:08 much like we would 00:04:09:08 00:04:11:05 with 11 different countries. 00:04:15:07 00:04:16:10 >> What we're doing here today 00:04:16:10 00:04:17:21 is bringing state and tribal 00:04:17:21 00:04:18:28 judiciaries together 00:04:18:28 00:04:20:05 to gain a better understanding 00:04:20:05 00:04:22:17 of each other. 00:04:22:17 00:04:25:10 And we saw a need to do 00:04:25:10 00:04:28:22 a more informal approach. 00:04:28:22 00:04:29:26 >> I think the philosophy 00:04:29:26 00:04:31:15 was to make it a very informal 00:04:31:15 00:04:33:11 discussion, to just kind of 00:04:33:11 00:04:34:26 facilitate the information 00:04:34:26 00:04:36:22 between the two courts. 00:04:36:22 00:04:37:26 >> All of these judges 00:04:37:26 00:04:38:25 here today come from 00:04:38:25 00:04:39:22 different counties, 00:04:39:22 00:04:40:21 and have different experiences 00:04:40:21 00:04:42:09 with different tribes. 00:04:42:09 00:04:43:21 >> We get to know each other. 00:04:43:21 00:04:45:18 There is very little "judge" 00:04:45:18 00:04:47:17 or "your honor" being used. 00:04:47:17 00:04:49:02 It's first name basis, and I 00:04:49:02 00:04:50:19 think that is really important, 00:04:50:19 00:04:53:01 to create that understanding. 00:04:53:01 00:04:54:08 John, if you can over simplify 00:04:54:08 00:04:55:21 this, I'm sending you 00:04:55:21 00:04:56:29 to Washington! 00:04:56:29 00:04:58:20 >> How do you decide 00:04:58:20 00:05:00:02 these differences in laws? 00:05:00:02 00:05:02:05 How do you resolve the problem 00:05:02:05 00:05:05:18 of when you have two sovereigns? 00:05:05:18 00:05:06:20 >> A tribal member 00:05:06:20 00:05:08:03 comes into a state court 00:05:08:03 00:05:10:09 and wants something adjudicated. 00:05:10:09 00:05:11:08 Well, the state court judges 00:05:11:08 00:05:12:12 take a step back and say, 00:05:12:12 00:05:13:29 wait a second, this is happening 00:05:13:29 00:05:15:10 for a tribal member, 00:05:15:10 00:05:17:00 on tribal lands. 00:05:17:00 00:05:18:08 Why is it that I'm exercising 00:05:18:08 00:05:19:22 jurisdiction? 00:05:19:22 00:05:21:27 >> This should be a decision 00:05:21:27 00:05:25:12 made on a concept of comity. 00:05:25:12 00:05:27:17 And that is a legal concept 00:05:27:17 00:05:29:12 that says that whenever you're 00:05:29:12 00:05:31:02 dealing with two sovereigns, 00:05:31:02 00:05:34:02 that you begin by recognizing 00:05:34:02 00:05:35:26 each other as a sovereign. 00:05:35:26 00:05:37:27 You begin by respecting 00:05:37:27 00:05:40:15 each other's laws and cultures 00:05:40:15 00:05:41:23 that affect the people 00:05:41:23 00:05:43:11 of that sovereignty. 00:05:43:11 00:05:45:00 And then, you're willing to 00:05:45:00 00:05:47:13 make decisions that are based 00:05:47:13 00:05:49:06 more or less on consensus 00:05:49:06 00:05:50:12 and agreement 00:05:50:12 00:05:53:12 of how to share that power. 00:05:56:18 00:05:58:26 You have to sit down and talk. 00:05:58:26 00:06:00:23 And so, the most effective way 00:06:00:23 00:06:02:10 to deal with the issues of 00:06:02:10 00:06:03:12 jurisdiction between state 00:06:03:12 00:06:05:00 and tribal courts 00:06:05:00 00:06:06:19 is for the judges to sit down 00:06:06:19 00:06:07:27 and to know each other, get to 00:06:07:27 00:06:09:05 know each other personally, 00:06:09:05 00:06:10:11 to be able to pick up the phone 00:06:10:11 00:06:11:14 and to be able to call 00:06:11:14 00:06:12:25 each other when you have issues 00:06:12:25 00:06:14:09 that come where there's conflict 00:06:14:09 00:06:15:18 between the jurisdictions, 00:06:15:18 00:06:16:26 and to have an agreed way 00:06:16:26 00:06:18:21 of solving that. 00:06:18:21 00:06:19:27 >> Judge Anderson holds 00:06:19:27 00:06:22:16 District court in Red Cliff 00:06:22:16 00:06:24:18 once about every six weeks. 00:06:24:18 00:06:26:05 >> Every 60 days. 00:06:26:05 00:06:27:15 That's worked out real well. 00:06:27:15 00:06:28:20 Not only is it convenient 00:06:28:20 00:06:30:04 for the people that live on the 00:06:30:04 00:06:32:01 northern tip of the peninsula 00:06:32:01 00:06:34:18 of Bayfield County to get to the 00:06:34:18 00:06:36:05 Red Cliff Court building easier, 00:06:36:05 00:06:38:15 but it also gives a chance for 00:06:38:15 00:06:40:03 Judge Gurnoe and I to sit down 00:06:40:03 00:06:41:18 and chat about, is there 00:06:41:18 00:06:42:25 anything that we need to talk 00:06:42:25 00:06:44:03 about, are there any cases 00:06:44:03 00:06:45:08 that are coming up 00:06:45:08 00:06:46:15 that we either have a concern 00:06:46:15 00:06:47:27 that it needs to get moved 00:06:47:27 00:06:49:13 from one court to the other. 00:06:49:13 00:06:50:14 >> I mostly like to deal 00:06:50:14 00:06:51:20 in uncontested divorces. 00:06:51:20 00:06:53:09 >> Don't we all? 00:06:53:09 00:06:55:01 >> Don't we all. 00:06:55:01 00:06:56:13 But actually, I'm able to use 00:06:56:13 00:06:58:20 Judge Anderson as the Boogeyman 00:06:58:20 00:07:00:16 when people come in. 00:07:00:16 00:07:01:18 If you've got 00:07:01:18 00:07:02:29 an uncontested divorce, 00:07:02:29 00:07:04:17 I'll be happy to hear that. 00:07:04:17 00:07:05:25 If you want to argue about 00:07:05:25 00:07:06:24 who gets the pot 00:07:06:24 00:07:07:23 and who gets the pan, 00:07:07:23 00:07:08:25 you can take it over 00:07:08:25 00:07:10:06 to Judge Anderson. 00:07:10:06 00:07:11:13 (both laugh) 00:07:11:13 00:07:12:17 Which is kind of 00:07:12:17 00:07:13:23 a dirty trick on you. 00:07:13:23 00:07:15:09 >> That's okay. 00:07:15:09 00:07:16:25 >> We each share it and have 00:07:16:25 00:07:19:07 concurrent laws, and yet, 00:07:19:07 00:07:21:13 if we pick up a telephone 00:07:21:13 00:07:23:04 or if we see each other 00:07:23:04 00:07:25:14 and talk to each other, I think 00:07:25:14 00:07:27:09 we can decide which jurisdiction 00:07:27:09 00:07:29:03 it's going to be held on, 00:07:29:03 00:07:30:16 so that justice to the people 00:07:30:16 00:07:31:26 can be delivered, and 00:07:31:26 00:07:34:02 can be delivered in a fair way. 00:07:34:02 00:07:36:07 And that's the ultimate goal 00:07:36:07 00:07:38:00 of a circuit court judge 00:07:38:00 00:07:39:28 and any tribal court judge. 00:07:39:28 00:07:41:13 The common ground is justice, 00:07:41:13 00:07:43:07 and justice for all, the state 00:07:43:07 00:07:46:18 and the other 11 nations. 00:07:50:24 00:07:52:13 >> For more information, 00:07:52:13 00:07:53:24 visit us on the Web at: 00:07:53:24 00:07:58:05 ecb.org/engage