00:00:00:00	00:00:01:11	>> We all think we know
00:00:01:11	00:00:02:22	what government is.
00:00:02:22	00:00:03:25	>> How it works
00:00:03:25	00:00:05:04	and what it does.
00:00:05:04	00:00:06:16	>> But what is it really?
00:00:06:16	00:00:07:20	What do we mean
00:00:07:20	00:00:09:08	by "government"?
00:00:09:08	00:00:10:26	>> Is it this?
00:00:10:26	00:00:12:19	>> Or this?
00:00:12:19	00:00:13:16	>> Are these people
00:00:13:16	00:00:14:24	the government?
00:00:14:24	00:00:16:06	>> Are you?
00:00:16:06	00:00:17:05	>> These are just some
00:00:17:05	00:00:18:05	of the questions we'll try
00:00:18:05	00:00:19:10	to answer for you today.
00:00:19:10	00:00:21:10	>> On Engage.
00:00:26:23	00:00:27:28	>> Hi, I'm Paloma.
00:00:27:28	00:00:29:09	>> And my name's Zach.
00:00:29:09	00:00:30:24	Places for a judge, a witness,
00:00:30:24	00:00:32:08	a jury.
00:00:32:08	00:00:33:08	Even if you've never been
00:00:33:08	00:00:34:17	to a courtroom like this before,
00:00:34:17	00:00:35:18	it's a pretty familiar sight
00:00:35:18	00:00:37:00	from movies and TV.
00:00:37:00	00:00:38:01	>> Governments need legal
00:00:38:01	00:00:39:00	systems for interpreting
00:00:39:00	00:00:40:05	and enforcing the law.
00:00:40:05	00:00:41:05	In Wisconsin, there are
00:00:41:05	00:00:42:11	hundreds of municipal courts
00:00:42:11	00:00:43:20	and hundreds of circuit courts
00:00:43:20	00:00:45:11	for our 72 counties.
00:00:45:11	00:00:46:14	>> But what about the 11
00:00:46:14	00:00:47:29	Indian tribes within our state?
00:00:47:29	00:00:49:00	As sovereign nations
00:00:49:00	00:00:49:29	within our borders, which
00:00:49:29	00:00:51:12	legal systems apply to them?
00:00:51:12	00:00:52:19	>> Well, it turns out,
00:00:52:19	00:00:55:22	they have their own.
00:00:55:22	00:00:57:03	>> All rise.
00:00:57:03	00:00:58:24	>> In recent years, Wisconsin's
00:00:58:24	00:01:00:09	Indian tribes have expanded
00:01:00:09	00:01:02:26	their tribal court systems.
00:01:05:00	00:01:06:13	In northern Wisconsin, federal
00:01:06:13	00:01:07:20	courts ruled that Wisconsin's
00:01:07:20	00:01:09:22	Ojibwe tribes retained the right
00:01:09:22	00:01:11:16	to hunt, fish and gather
00:01:11:16	00:01:14:06	on their former lands.
00:01:14:06	00:01:15:14	The tribes were then faced with
00:01:15:14	00:01:16:29	the task of regulating their
00:01:16:29	00:01:20:10	harvest of natural resources.
00:01:20:10	00:01:22:08	>> The federal court ruled
00:01:22:08	00:01:24:04	that besides having the right
00:01:24:04	00:01:26:07	to use or harvest the resource,
00:01:26:07	00:01:27:20	that the tribes had retained
00:01:27:20	00:01:29:19	that part of their sovereignty
00:01:29:19	00:01:31:28	on those rights to be able
00:01:31:28	00:01:33:17	to self-regulate, as sovereign
00:01:33:17	00:01:35:16	governments, to regulate their
00:01:35:16	00:01:37:10	own people when they were
00:01:37:10	00:01:39:09	exercising their rights.
00:01:39:09	00:01:40:27	So there were authorizations
00:01:40:27	00:01:42:16	for tribal law enforcement
00:01:42:16	00:01:44:15	and tribal courts
00:01:44:15	00:01:47:01	to adjudicate violations.
00:01:47:01	00:01:48:15	>> The establishment of courts
00:01:48:15	00:01:50:11	started as a conservation court,
00:01:50:11	00:01:52:21	if you will, enforcing the rules
00:01:52:21	00:01:54:06	governing hunting, trapping,
00:01:54:06	00:01:57:01	gathering and fishing.
00:01:57:01	00:01:58:01	>> In the development of these
00:01:58:01	00:02:01:01	conservation courts, the tribes
00:02:01:01	00:02:03:21	have expanded their jurisdiction
00:02:03:21	00:02:06:02	to include family issues,
00:02:06:02	00:02:08:21	to include civil dispute issues
00:02:08:21	00:02:09:27	on the reservation.
00:02:09:27	00:02:11:27	These are things that the tribe
00:02:11:27	00:02:14:15	never gave up the power to do.
00:02:14:15	00:02:16:01	They just didn't have
00:02:16:01	00:02:17:12	the mechanism to do it.
00:02:17:12	00:02:18:11	They didn't have
00:02:18:11	00:02:19:06	the judicial system.
00:02:19:06	00:02:20:23	But now that they have them,
00:02:20:23	00:02:22:19	they can use it for purposes
00:02:22:19	00:02:24:03	other than
00:02:24:03	00:02:27:24	the conservation laws.
00:02:27:24	00:02:29:03	>> As the Ojibwe tribal courts
00:02:29:03	00:02:31:12	grew, Wisconsin's other tribes
00:02:31:12	00:02:33:00	also began to expand their
00:02:33:00	00:02:35:08	court systems.
00:02:35:08	00:02:36:13	>> Tribes are starting
00:02:36:13	00:02:38:07	to do more things on their own.
00:02:38:07	00:02:39:24	Tribal courts were in their
00:02:39:24	00:02:41:05	infancy stage, and everything
00:02:41:05	00:02:42:19	was growing, you know,
00:02:42:19	00:02:43:16	we started taking on
00:02:43:16	00:02:44:23	more responsibilities
00:02:44:23	00:02:45:27	at the same time.
00:02:45:27	00:02:47:00	>> One of the things
00:02:47:00	00:02:48:08	that has been happening
00:02:48:08	00:02:49:24	over the last 25 years,
00:02:49:24	00:02:51:17	is that the tribes have had
00:02:51:17	00:02:53:01	the resources now that they
00:02:53:01	00:02:55:09	haven't had for 200 years.
00:02:55:09	00:02:56:21	And they have the resources now
00:02:56:21	00:02:58:17	to develop the institutions
00:02:58:17	00:03:00:17	within their communities, that
00:03:00:17	00:03:03:19	define what a government is.
00:03:06:06	00:03:08:00	>> Each tribe that entered into
00:03:08:00	00:03:09:18	a treaty negotiation
00:03:09:18	00:03:11:14	was considered a nation.
00:03:11:14	00:03:13:01	And since they are a nation,
00:03:13:01	00:03:14:04	they develop
00:03:14:04	00:03:15:23	their own ordinances.
00:03:15:23	00:03:16:25	So Bad River will have their own
00:03:16:25	00:03:19:00	tribal car license, for example.
00:03:19:00	00:03:20:08	Lac Courte Oreilles
00:03:20:08	00:03:21:18	will have their own licence.
00:03:21:18	00:03:22:28	Oneida has Oneida Nation.
00:03:22:28	00:03:24:10	Menomonie Nation.
00:03:24:10	00:03:25:17	Ho-Chunk Nation.
00:03:25:17	00:03:26:25	>> There are 11 sovereign
00:03:26:25	00:03:28:06	nations within, basically,
00:03:28:06	00:03:29:26	the state of Wisconsin.
00:03:29:26	00:03:31:09	So you have actually,
00:03:31:09	00:03:32:18	12 sovereign nations
00:03:32:18	00:03:33:29	to deal with in such a little,
00:03:33:29	00:03:35:27	small area such as the state
00:03:35:27	00:03:38:04	of Wisconsin.
00:03:38:04	00:03:39:07	>> And we're all different,
00:03:39:07	00:03:40:16	which I think is something
00:03:40:16	00:03:41:22	that a lot of individuals
00:03:41:22	00:03:43:00	don't really seem to understand.
00:03:43:00	00:03:44:12	They try to put tribes
00:03:44:12	00:03:45:29	underneath a big umbrella
00:03:45:29	00:03:47:23	of Native Americans.
00:03:47:23	00:03:48:25	But when it comes
00:03:48:25	00:03:49:29	to court systems,
00:03:49:29	00:03:51:11	we have very different laws.
00:03:51:11	00:03:52:12	>> Each one of them have
00:03:52:12	00:03:53:19	their own system of justice.
00:03:53:19	00:03:54:26	And it was set up
00:03:54:26	00:03:57:01	according to their people.
00:03:57:01	00:03:58:05	And each one of them
00:03:58:05	00:03:59:26	have their own governments.
00:03:59:26	00:04:01:02	>> When we talk about working
00:04:01:02	00:04:02:07	with tribal courts,
00:04:02:07	00:04:03:09	we're talking about working
00:04:03:09	00:04:04:12	with the tribal courts in these
00:04:04:12	00:04:05:20	individual sovereign nations.
00:04:05:20	00:04:06:22	So we have to have relations
00:04:06:22	00:04:08:01	with each of those sovereigns,
00:04:08:01	00:04:09:08	much like we would
00:04:09:08	00:04:11:05	with 11 different countries.
00:04:15:07	00:04:16:10	>> What we're doing here today
00:04:16:10	00:04:17:21	is bringing state and tribal
00:04:17:21	00:04:18:28	judiciaries together
00:04:18:28	00:04:20:05	to gain a better understanding
00:04:20:05	00:04:22:17	of each other.
00:04:22:17	00:04:25:10	And we saw a need to do
00:04:25:10	00:04:28:22	a more informal approach.
00:04:28:22	00:04:29:26	>> I think the philosophy
00:04:29:26	00:04:31:15	was to make it a very informal
00:04:31:15	00:04:33:11	discussion, to just kind of
00:04:33:11	00:04:34:26	facilitate the information
00:04:34:26	00:04:36:22	between the two courts.
00:04:36:22	00:04:37:26	>> All of these judges
00:04:37:26	00:04:38:25	here today come from
00:04:38:25	00:04:39:22	different counties,
00:04:39:22	00:04:40:21	and have different experiences
00:04:40:21	00:04:42:09	with different tribes.
00:04:42:09	00:04:43:21	>> We get to know each other.
00:04:43:21	00:04:45:18	There is very little "judge"
00:04:45:18	00:04:47:17	or "your honor" being used.
00:04:47:17	00:04:49:02	It's first name basis, and I
00:04:49:02	00:04:50:19	think that is really important,
00:04:50:19	00:04:53:01	to create that understanding.
00:04:53:01	00:04:54:08	John, if you can over simplify
00:04:54:08	00:04:55:21	this, I'm sending you
00:04:55:21	00:04:56:29	to Washington!
00:04:56:29	00:04:58:20	>> How do you decide
00:04:58:20	00:05:00:02	these differences in laws?
00:05:00:02	00:05:02:05	How do you resolve the problem
00:05:02:05	00:05:05:18	of when you have two sovereigns?
00:05:05:18	00:05:06:20	>> A tribal member
00:05:06:20	00:05:08:03	comes into a state court
00:05:08:03	00:05:10:09	and wants something adjudicated.
00:05:10:09	00:05:11:08	Well, the state court judges
00:05:11:08	00:05:12:12	take a step back and say,
00:05:12:12	00:05:13:29	wait a second, this is happening
00:05:13:29	00:05:15:10	for a tribal member,
00:05:15:10	00:05:17:00	on tribal lands.
00:05:17:00	00:05:18:08	Why is it that I'm exercising
00:05:18:08	00:05:19:22	jurisdiction?
00:05:19:22	00:05:21:27	>> This should be a decision
00:05:21:27	00:05:25:12	made on a concept of comity.
00:05:25:12	00:05:27:17	And that is a legal concept
00:05:27:17	00:05:29:12	that says that whenever you're
00:05:29:12	00:05:31:02	dealing with two sovereigns,
00:05:31:02	00:05:34:02	that you begin by recognizing
00:05:34:02	00:05:35:26	each other as a sovereign.
00:05:35:26	00:05:37:27	You begin by respecting
00:05:37:27	00:05:40:15	each other's laws and cultures
00:05:40:15	00:05:41:23	that affect the people
00:05:41:23	00:05:43:11	of that sovereignty.
00:05:43:11	00:05:45:00	And then, you're willing to
00:05:45:00	00:05:47:13	make decisions that are based
00:05:47:13	00:05:49:06	more or less on consensus
00:05:49:06	00:05:50:12	and agreement
00:05:50:12	00:05:53:12	of how to share that power.
00:05:56:18	00:05:58:26	You have to sit down and talk.
00:05:58:26	00:06:00:23	And so, the most effective way
00:06:00:23	00:06:02:10	to deal with the issues of
00:06:02:10	00:06:03:12	jurisdiction between state
00:06:03:12	00:06:05:00	and tribal courts
00:06:05:00	00:06:06:19	is for the judges to sit down
00:06:06:19	00:06:07:27	and to know each other, get to
00:06:07:27	00:06:09:05	know each other personally,
00:06:09:05	00:06:10:11	to be able to pick up the phone
00:06:10:11	00:06:11:14	and to be able to call
00:06:11:14	00:06:12:25	each other when you have issues
00:06:12:25	00:06:14:09	that come where there's conflict
00:06:14:09	00:06:15:18	between the jurisdictions,
00:06:15:18	00:06:16:26	and to have an agreed way
00:06:16:26	00:06:18:21	of solving that.
00:06:18:21	00:06:19:27	>> Judge Anderson holds
00:06:19:27	00:06:22:16	District court in Red Cliff
00:06:22:16	00:06:24:18	once about every six weeks.
00:06:24:18	00:06:26:05	>> Every 60 days.
00:06:26:05	00:06:27:15	That's worked out real well.
00:06:27:15	00:06:28:20	Not only is it convenient
00:06:28:20	00:06:30:04	for the people that live on the
00:06:30:04	00:06:32:01	northern tip of the peninsula
00:06:32:01	00:06:34:18	of Bayfield County to get to the
00:06:34:18	00:06:36:05	Red Cliff Court building easier,
00:06:36:05	00:06:38:15	but it also gives a chance for
00:06:38:15	00:06:40:03	Judge Gurnoe and I to sit down
00:06:40:03	00:06:41:18	and chat about, is there
00:06:41:18	00:06:42:25	anything that we need to talk
00:06:42:25	00:06:44:03	about, are there any cases
00:06:44:03	00:06:45:08	that are coming up
00:06:45:08	00:06:46:15	that we either have a concern
00:06:46:15	00:06:47:27	that it needs to get moved
00:06:47:27	00:06:49:13	from one court to the other.
00:06:49:13	00:06:50:14	>> I mostly like to deal
00:06:50:14	00:06:51:20	in uncontested divorces.
00:06:51:20	00:06:53:09	>> Don't we all?
00:06:53:09	00:06:55:01	>> Don't we all.
00:06:55:01	00:06:56:13	But actually, I'm able to use
00:06:56:13	00:06:58:20	Judge Anderson as the Boogeyman
00:06:58:20	00:07:00:16	when people come in.
00:07:00:16	00:07:01:18	If you've got
00:07:01:18	00:07:02:29	an uncontested divorce,
00:07:02:29	00:07:04:17	I'll be happy to hear that.
00:07:04:17	00:07:05:25	If you want to argue about
00:07:05:25	00:07:06:24	who gets the pot
00:07:06:24	00:07:07:23	and who gets the pan,
00:07:07:23	00:07:08:25	you can take it over
00:07:08:25	00:07:10:06	to Judge Anderson.
00:07:10:06	00:07:11:13	(both laugh)
00:07:11:13	00:07:12:17	Which is kind of
00:07:12:17	00:07:13:23	a dirty trick on you.
00:07:13:23	00:07:15:09	>> That's okay.
00:07:15:09	00:07:16:25	>> We each share it and have
00:07:16:25	00:07:19:07	concurrent laws, and yet,
00:07:19:07	00:07:21:13	if we pick up a telephone
00:07:21:13	00:07:23:04	or if we see each other
00:07:23:04	00:07:25:14	and talk to each other, I think
00:07:25:14	00:07:27:09	we can decide which jurisdiction
00:07:27:09	00:07:29:03	it's going to be held on,
00:07:29:03	00:07:30:16	so that justice to the people
00:07:30:16	00:07:31:26	can be delivered, and
00:07:31:26	00:07:34:02	can be delivered in a fair way.
00:07:34:02	00:07:36:07	And that's the ultimate goal
00:07:36:07	00:07:38:00	of a circuit court judge
00:07:38:00	00:07:39:28	and any tribal court judge.
00:07:39:28	00:07:41:13	The common ground is justice,
00:07:41:13	00:07:43:07	and justice for all, the state
00:07:43:07	00:07:46:18	and the other 11 nations.
00:07:50:24	00:07:52:13	>> For more information,
00:07:52:13	00:07:53:24	visit us on the Web at:
00:07:53:24	00:07:58:05	ecb.org/engage