Okay. I guess I'll just kind of start with what is your role as Executive Director at
Fair Wisconsin? What are your goals when you want to accomplish that? Right. So Fair Wisconsin
is Wisconsin's only statewide LGBTQ plus civil rights and political advocacy organization,
which means that our mission is to build a Wisconsin that is safe and inclusive
for all LGBTQ plus people and where we can really all thrive. That means that our focus is at every
level of government to try and make sure that we get pro equality protections on the books.
And as Executive Director, it's my purpose, obviously, to drive that forward. And I'm a member
of the LGBTQ plus community, but specifically with this topic, I just want to make something clear.
I identify as a queer woman, but I'm not trans. And I do think it is incredibly important that
trans voices and trans leaders are at the forefront of this movement. I also think it is not fair
to perpetually put people of marginalized and oppressed identities in the position of having to
defend their own existence and their own lives. So as a member of this movement, as a leader in
this movement, I am here to also be a strong voice in support of our trans and non-binary
community members. Absolutely. And so how do organizations like Fair Wisconsin, what's their
mission and their goal when it comes to uplifting LGBTQ and trans voices? Right.
So part of uplifting the voices is making sure that the general public understands the challenges
and frankly the joys that are part of our identities and our experiences, so that the general public
can best support and elect leaders and then hold them accountable to making sure that the protections
and the rights that really honor the humanity of our community are written into law. And frankly,
to also stop the bad stuff from happening, right? It's a it's a both hand. We do a lot of proactive
and also reactive work. Absolutely. And with that, after election day last year, there was a spike
in 700% two calls in LGBTQ crisis hotlines. And even on inauguration day on Monday this week,
there were over a thousand calls, which was a 33% increase just that afternoon, according to the
Trevor Project. How are organizations like Fair Wisconsin preparing to support trans and
queer voices under this new administration? So under this new administration, I think there
are a few things to keep in mind. Number one, trans and non-binary people are here. They have
always been here. They will always be here. And no president can change that with a line in a
speech or the stroke of some sort of executive order pen. We also have to, as a community and
as a general public, understand that we can't make it easier for this administration by assuming
he's actually going to be successful at implementing these discriminatory policies. There is a lot
of vagueness in some of the things he stated and even in the executive order that he signed on day
one that was anti-trans. I wouldn't be surprised if there was litigation any moment about quite a bit
of it. And some of this is going to take some time for us to see what it really, really means.
But what is most important, I think, for the general public and for the LGBTQ plus community
is to really hold true to that fact that our community is not going anywhere. And the LGBTQ plus
community has faced hostile federal governments before. And we are still here. And part of the
movement, part of the fact that the LGBTQ plus movement is a movement is knowing that that movement
sometimes gets more and more difficult and more and more challenging and can go in other directions.
And it is really, really important that we continue to center those trans and non-binary
voices in this movement and to follow their lead. And also the general public needs to make sure
that we're understanding the experiences. Because as we have seen, the numbers are scary when it
comes to mental health and emotional well-being, when it comes to suicide ideation, when it comes
to suicide attempts. It's also important to understand the joy and the affirmation that can be the
flip side of that. And I think it's important that this movement lifts all of that up and that
the general public really comes to understand that. What was your reaction? I'm not sure if you
watched the inauguration, but after hearing that during you, he said there are only two genders,
male and female. And what are the implications of saying something like that behind a presidential
field? Yeah. Can I thank for a second? Absolutely.
When I heard it in the speech, when the president said the factually untrue statements about
sex and gender and gender identity, it made me think about how he was attempting to follow
through on what I would consider a campaign promise of his that we saw in the attack ads,
in the anti-trans attack ads. And I find it incredibly disappointing to say the least
that those attack ads ever happened. They were disgusting and they were hateful.
And I think the most important thing to know about them actually is that they did not work.
Those attack ads that were anti-trans did not drive voters. There is research that shows that.
And some of the people who ran those attack ads won, but they did not win based on their
ugly rejection of trans people. And to me, that's incredibly important to keep in mind,
because it shows what we as a general public need to know about holding our elected officials
accountable. Because if those attack ads did not drive voters and those votes did not happen because
of any kind of support of these anti-trans policies, we need to know that we can't let these people
who think they have an anti-trans agenda govern as though they have a mandate,
because they don't. Some of them won, but they didn't win because they were anti-trans.
And I think the rest of us need to be able to hold them accountable and say,
this is a cycle that needs to stop and this ugliness has no place in our politics,
and definitely no place in our actual government.
And what is holding them accountable for like what can people do?
Right. So now is definitely a time to mobilize and a time to organize,
and that is a part of our work at Fair Wisconsin. But I think the most important thing for us to
remember, at least as an LGBTQ plus community, it is also a time to care for ourselves and each other.
And that's really going to look different for everybody. The mobilization, the organizing,
and the care, right? So when I think about it, I think about how we've all arrived to this moment
at a really different level of comfort when it comes to safety, when it comes to levels of
privilege. And frankly, even when it comes to levels of comfort with uncertainty,
because there is so much uncertainty right now. So when I think of what does mobilization or
organization or care look like, I really think about how we as queer people living our lives
is a necessary and beautiful thing. And for some of us, like me, who, you know,
it's literally my job to be a leader in the LGBTQ plus movement, for some of us living our lives
means showing up publicly for the fight. And for other people, it might mean doing what they
need to do to get through. And that's okay. Not everybody needs to be in the fight. Not everybody
has the capacity to be in the fight, and that needs to be okay. And I know I've heard amongst
sort of my circles some feelings of apprehension about safety, and also some feelings of even
like a little bit of guilt of not feeling ready to be in the fight. And so what I think about
the long-term sustainability of an LGBTQ plus movement, holding these people accountable for
making sure that they do not take anti-trans votes and make anti-trans policy into law,
it really comes back at its core about making sure our community is cared for and safe. And
that's tough because these policies are unsafe. And frankly, I would say even talking about them
becomes unsafe at a certain point. Those attack ads, they didn't work, but they created a more
unsafe environment for trans and non-binary people. And they really impacted our LGBTQ plus community,
emotional well-being. And frankly, like, I don't know anyone who saw them and didn't find them
incredibly misleading to say the least and disturbing. I actually think the polling showed that like
a majority of voters found them mean-spirited, I think was the word that I saw in the survey.
And if I remember correctly, actually majority of Republicans found them mean-spirited,
which again, I think is really indicative of how ugly and disgusting they were and how they
didn't work. But again, when I think about holding our politicians accountable and holding our
elected leaders accountable, if I kind of think of them as two different words for a reason,
it means that this movement needs to be sustained and sustainable. And that means we need to care
for ourselves too. And so I think a lot of people think about holding elected leaders to account
as being a very public thing, as being like standing outside a capital with a sign or showing up
the hearing. And I encourage you to do that. We do that at Fair Wisconsin. I hope you join us.
And taking care of yourself as a queer person is also holding these people accountable because
you are still here. And one of the things that these kinds of laws and policies and even executive
orders try and do is try and erase us. And by still being here, we are still holding
them to account. Yeah. So what was your response when Trump signed a new executive orders,
needing that there are only two sexes, including on official documents and including in that cutting
federal funding to change our opinion? Right. My initial reaction to the executive order
had a lot to do with feeling like the looming threat that we had sort of been preparing for
for a long time was quite real. And not all immediately impacting. A lot of the things that
were listed in the executive order are going to take time to implement, are going to take
lots of steps that have to do with things far beyond the stroke of a patent, like rulemaking,
which includes a public comment period. We are members of the public. We should comment
like trying to change agency regulations. And so the executive order was such a sweeping attempt
to erase our trans and non-binary community that I think it shows a lot of overreach. And that's why
I am absolutely certain there will be litigation about it, which is another reason it's going to
move pretty slowly in some areas. There are other areas where it's not. There are other areas
where it is immediately impacting people when it comes to documentation, when it comes to identifying
documents at the federal level like passports. There are already no longer links on websites to
do any kind of changes that people would want to make. And then also I worry quite a bit
about what the executive order meant when it comes to the federal prison population.
I am not a lawyer. I'm not an expert. But when I read it and when I think about where does the
federal government have the most immediate levers of change in power, that worries me a lot because
we are talking about an incredibly vulnerable population that not enough people are paying
attention to. So that's something that I'm learning more about and want to do more work in.
I'll also say I think it's really, really important for people to understand that that
executive order again is going to take a long time. There will be litigation. I am sure it also
doesn't impact all documents. It doesn't impact things that are more state specific. And that's
where fair Wisconsin really comes in. An example would be the executive order made changes to
things like passports. But Wisconsin, every state does driver's licenses. So not every
identification document is affected in the same way. And I would encourage anyone who has any
questions or thoughts about wanting to learn more about that difference. Reach out to Fair
Wisconsin and reach out to some other amazing community centers in Wisconsin. We're ready to
try and direct you in the right direction. And then I also just keep coming back to this refrain
in my own mind of this is an attempt by a man who does not understand trans identity to
erase an entire population of people. And we know that our trans and non-binary friends and
neighbors have always been here and will always be here and an executive order is not going to
change that. It's definitely going to make life more difficult. And I am not making that
any smaller. That is huge. But it doesn't change the fact that our community is here and not going
anywhere. So it's just to me a helpful refrain to come back to. Because it's how I can affirm
the humanity of the people I love in my life.
It's just to prepare for these actions beforehand before they even happen. People rush to change
their identity marker on their documents. What are the longer-term impacts of those policies?
This is actually a place where we've been preparing as equality organizations across
the country for a while too. So when the election happened and the outcome happened the way it did,
state and national equality leaders really convened and got together. And we talked through what
are some lessons learned and the states where there already are anti-trans policies on the books.
Because there are quite a few states in this country that already have some of these anti-trans
policies that are being attempted at the federal level at the more state level. Wisconsin is not
one of them. And we are, as fair Wisconsin, we are very, very proud to have been a part of the
community that stops some of those things. And we're also very thankful to have a governor who
vetoes some of those things. But we've been, we convened as national and state equality leaders
to look at those lessons learned. What can we learn from the states where there are anti-trans
laws on the books about how to care for and protect how we can our trans community? And
plebside, what can we learn from the states where there are already protections about how to strengthen
our own protections in our state, how to make those more robust at the state level or if needed
at the more municipal, local, county, city, school board level, right? And that's where
I think the preparation has been really key because we've been able to see these lessons learned.
And like I said, the LGBTQ plus community has faced hostile governments before and in many parts
of this country already we're facing hostile governments. And we have a lot to learn from the
incredible LGBTQ plus leaders in those in those states. I do not remember the rest of your question.
I apologize. Please help me out. I guess I'll read a part of the executive order and you can
let me know your reaction to it. It says gender identity reflects a fully internal and subjective
sense of self, disconnected from biological reality and sex and existing on an infinite
continuum that does not provide a meaningful basis for identification and cannot be recognized
as a replacement for sex. What is your reaction to that? It strikes me that
the general public, and I would include actually the administration because they are listening
to such things as well, not to mention saying some of them. The general public is told a lot
about trans people and very little of it is told by trans people. And that is striking to me because
of the fact that that creates not only like an absence of knowledge, but an absolute misunderstanding
of the reality of the lived experience of trans people. And I also think part of that is
that I acknowledge that everyone is on a journey when it comes to understanding gender identity.
I'm on the journey. Everyone is, I encourage everyone who's listening to learn more. I also
do not think you need to know every detail of someone's identity to respect them as people.
I think you can respect that someone knows who they are and you can respect that someone knows
what they need. And to me, something like this executive order and a lot of the other anti-trans
policies and rhetoric show a real ignoring, willfully ignoring, of what trans people really need.
And when I talk to my trans friends and other translators in the LGBTQ plus movement, it is,
they're very clear about what they need. They need protections for their health care. They need
protections against discrimination for housing and employment. They need kids to be able to feel
like they belong in a school. But because they are not in the conversation about defining themselves,
there is such a disconnect there. And so I just think it's incredibly important that wherever we
are on our journey of understanding, we can still respect that other people know who they are.
I know who I am and I know everyone can have that. They have their own understanding of themselves.
I think we can extend the grace that other people, when they say they know who they are, they know who
they are. Yeah, absolutely. Some other policy that's been passed, that house passed a ban on trans
students from participating in Girl Sports earlier this month, which opens doors up to
leading to physical examinations. How are policies like this intrusive and dangerous against trans youth?
So specifically the anti-trans athlete bills, the one at the federal level, and also there are
quite a few at other states. They really open the door to a lot of invasive questions, even
examinations. And there's actually data that shows that in states that have anti-trans athlete
bans, participation in sports goes down across the board for all girls. And I think that's a part
people don't realize that these anti-trans targeting bills impact everyone. So they impact trans
people, they impact girls, that these bills are purported to be about protecting or supporting.
They impact people who are intersex, which is another part of our population that we do not
acknowledge and definitely do not understand the implications of something as invasive as
questions about your period or examinations of your body would mean. And it's this ripple effect
of consequences that I am not generous enough to say that that's not unintended. I think there
are a lot of very intended consequences about these bills. So I worry, because we've seen it in
other states about decreased participation, I worry about these invasive sort of scrutiny
of bodies. We're talking in many cases about young girls, about teen girls, as someone who was once
a teen girl, that is horrifying and makes sense to me that participation does go down. These are
not surprising outcomes, but they have not stopped people from choosing to do these anti-trans
athlete bills. And that really worries me. It also, to me, has a fundamental misunderstanding
of why people play sports. I wasn't a big sports person as a kid, but I did play soccer and it was
fun to be on a team. I loved playing as a part of a team. I was a horrible athlete, but it felt
cool to belong to a group of people who were trying to score a goal. That's why people play
sports, to belong on a team. And so these politicians who are weaponizing the desire of a child or
even a college athlete to belong, they're playing a really ugly game. And I think there's a lot of
people who are caught as collateral damage in that. And that's really, really worrisome to me.
Do you think this administration's future policies will end up going further, even going after the
marriage? I think everything's on the table, and it's scary, right? I know what was in project 2025,
and there were parts of that road map that really attack all different aspects of the LGBTQ plus
community, attack parenting rights, attack the solidity of me believing that my marriage will be
recognized tomorrow, right? And those are really worrying things. Obviously, because of the anti-trans
attack ads and this kind of executive order right out of the gate, our trans community is really,
really on the front lines of this. And I don't want to diminish that at all. That is so real.
And definitely where we need to be putting our focus. And I also know that as a queer woman in
a queer relationship who is parenting a small child, that there are a lot of the potential
realities to changes in policies that protect me that I'm also very aware of. So it's not
my most immediate fear, but I am absolutely worried about everything. That's also overwhelming,
right? And that's why I think it's so important that we remember that when we are looking
at these policies, whether they be specific to the trans community or potentially about the entire
LGBTQ plus community, it can be overwhelming. And that's exhausting. That's a lot of emotional
labor. And it's why it's important to mobilize and organize. It's also why it's so important to
do community care, because we're going to have to really focus on the marathon, not the sprint here.
And we don't know what's coming around the corner. But yes, I do worry about that.
Yeah. How do you both personally and professionally take action that find power when these policies
are coming out? Yeah, can I think about that one for a second? When you said personally and
professionally, I was like, Oh, wow, a lot. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I'm trying to
think if there's anything new, I kind of said some things that I'm probably going to repeat here.
So forgive me. Can you say it again so I can like respond better?
Either personally or professionally take action or find power when you say policies are coming out.
So there are elections coming up. And that is a one place that we can take power as a community.
And as a general public who cares about this LGBTQ plus community 2025 is an election year.
We have spring elections. There are state level and local level and school level
elections happening. And with this federal administration, LGBTQ plus protections,
rubber really meets the road at the state and local and school board level right now. That is
where we have power as people. And a democracy is only as powerful as the people who show up
to be a part of it. So spring 2025 elections are going to be really, really key for
fair Wisconsin for this organization, for our community in general, to really show up and
elect some pro equality candidates to become elected officials who we would then be able to
work with and create more robust protections at the not federal level. There are certain avenues
that are close to us right now because the federal level is hostile. But the local avenue,
the school board avenue, the state avenue, those are open. And we will go down that road. That's
really, really important. There's also an upcoming legislative session. We had different
maps this last election. There is a different makeup to our assembly and our Senate. We got
more pro equality candidates selected. I am hopeful that there is some proactive work we can do.
I am also clear eyed and understanding that we will have to beat back bad stuff again.
And we will do it. We will do it as a community. Fair Wisconsin is going to be a part of that.
We are part of a large coalition to stand up and stop anything bad from happening.
And again, we have a governor who I firmly believe will continue to veto anti LGBTQ plus bills.
So I think the focus for at least my organization right now is really a twofold focus on the
legislative session coming up and on the spring 2025 election, making sure that pro equality
candidates are getting elected. And there's also an ongoing professional duty to continue
educating the general public about what matters to our community. And to make sure that so many
different voices are a part of that education. And really meeting people where they're at in
their journey and moving them forward. And so that's a huge part of the work that my organization
does as well. I'll say on a personal level, you know, my work and my life are pretty circular
Venn diagram right now. There's a lot of overlap there. And it's why I'm trying to also keep in
mind that when I say, you know, we have to organize, we have to mobilize, and we also have to care
for ourselves, that's a message that when I say it, I need to listen to it too. And so I'm just
going to say that out loud one more time to myself, just to make sure that other people realize
that the leaders in this movement are also making sure that we're centering our own care.
As a hope that that gives everyone else permission to do the same.
And how are some of those ways that people can educate themselves bridge those gaps between
trans and non trans communities? How can people do that?
Yeah, great question. Let me just think for a second, because what I want to say is like watch
this show, but I'm not going to say that. Okay, so there's so much information in the world about
trans and non-binary people, because we've been here forever as a community, as an LGBTQ plus
community, and specifically as a trans and non-binary community. And that information is readily
available in a lot of wonderful books and a lot of very impactful blogs and a lot of incredible
videos, of course, media literacy as a thing. So please, as people are learning and educating
themselves, make sure that the source is a reputable one. And I would say most importantly,
and I say this as someone who is not trans, that the most important person to listen to right now
is a trans person. That also means do not ask invasive questions, but listen to what they need
you to know. That is something that I as someone who's on my own journey learned earlier on,
as someone who was a middle school gender and sexuality alliance advisor. I had many students
who were trans. I had multiple students transition socially in my classroom. And it was really a
beautiful and heartening thing to see the way the rest of the classroom supported them
by learning. And so, and they learned in so many different ways. And so I'll give that as an
example of ways that people could approach that. I distinctly remember one of my
cisgender students, whose very close friend had just socially transitioned coming to me and saying,
I need a book. Because I don't know what's going on, and I want to stay this person's friend,
but I'm not really comfortable asking the questions to them. Which, good for you, right? Good for you
for exploring, good for you for knowing that maybe that's not the right person to ask the
questions to when you're trying to learn. And so I handed over a great library book that I still go
to, Young Adult Fiction. Yay for Young Adult Fiction. And it was one way for that student to learn.
And then, actually, the trans student picked up the same book and they read it together,
which was really beautiful, right? It can be as simple as that. And can really open up
people to a conversation that I really think we need to be having.
What is your message to people who support these anti-tramatic policies? People who consider themselves
to be anti-tramatic? What is your message for them?
Oh, that was a good one. Okay, I'm going to need to think for a second.
When I think about people who hold beliefs that are anti-trans,
in my most generous heart of hearts, I want to believe it's a lack of information.
And so I don't, and I have people like this that I've spoken to, right? This isn't just a
hypothetical. What I have found most impactful, partly to the person I'm speaking to, but also to
myself, because I think it's important to keep in mind that that's a tough conversation for people.
I'm not trans and it's tough conversations, even tougher as you are, right? And so,
when I think about how do I approach someone who has anti-trans beliefs, I try and approach it
in a way that shares information, but not data and not science. Those are important,
and they do support the trans people and non-binary people exist, but I don't think those are
necessarily the things that cut through the hate. Cutting through the hate, saying that
it's hate also is not necessarily really effective. So when I think about what message I would give,
I would want it to be really effective. And so to me, appealing to empathy and one's own
understanding of self is really important. So I think about how a lot of trans people are very
misunderstood, because it is something that people aren't familiar with, like the gender
journey that people are on. And to me, as someone who has never been through a transition,
but as someone who has learned a lot about myself and come to a deeper understanding of myself,
that's something that I can appeal to in someone else who is not trans, who might not be a member
of the LGBTQ plus community, or might be, who has these views of saying, you don't need to
understand everything. You need to understand that someone who says they know who they are,
knows who they are, because I would respect the same of you. And you don't need to necessarily
understand every detail and nuance of someone's health care or of someone's
intricate physical makeup to understand that when they say, I need this and that this is protections,
they're speaking the truth. And so to me, when I think about how do I message, you know, to
to an opposing viewpoint, I always try and think of how can I appeal to someone's empathy and
frankly, how can I appeal to someone's own understanding of themselves? I, as a queer woman, have gone
through my own self discovery, have gone through my own coming out journey, as any queer person
knows sort of am always coming out. And I've always said to myself that it's a huge gift,
because it means that I have such a deep understanding of who I am, because I had to wrestle with it,
right? That is not everyone's experience, but I think it does rhyme with most people's experiences.
Maybe it was something you had to come up with to figure out your own political beliefs,
maybe they're political beliefs. I do not agree with it all, but you had to wrestle with them to
figure them out. That's a sense of self you have. I would try and appeal to, look, you have gone
through a journey. So is everyone else just maybe on a different topic and from a different vantage
point. I believe you when you say you have these political beliefs, I want you to believe someone
else when they say they know who they are. On the other side of that, what is your message to
trans people who are feeling afraid or uncertain of the future?
As an LGBTQ plus movement and as a leader in the movement, I want our trans and non-binary
community members to know that we see you, we support you, and I'm never going to know everything
about your challenges. I'm going to listen as much as humanly possible, and I'm very, very, very clear
in my own belief that I want to honor someone else's humanity by not making them always have
to defend their own existence. I think it's incredibly important for those of us who are not trans
to be showing up for our trans and non-binary community, because it is exhausting to always
have to defend your own humanity, and no one should be put in that position. And specifically,
trans kids should not be put in that position. If they want to show up and fight, more power to
them, and also more power to the rest of us for not forcing that on anyone. And so when I think
of my message to the trans and non-binary community, I want you to know you are not alone. You have
strong support from LGBTQ plus people, from allied communities, and a whole lot of people who just
need to know you a little bit better to love you. And so I'm here to help make sure that that
education is an important part of the conversation going forward.
Those are all the questions I have. Is there anything else we wanted to add that we could
touch on? Thanks. Let me think. I don't know. There's really good questions. I'm very thorough.
So probably not, but let me think for a second.
No, I think, yeah, I can't think of anything that I thought through beforehand that we didn't get to.
So thank you for that.
Okay.