Three Wisconsin prisons have such a shortage of correctional officers they are on some form of lockdown or as the agency prefers modified movement. For example at the maximum security while pun prison the vacancy rate for guards sits at about 53 percent at the Green Bay prison it's a 41 percent vacancy rate and it's Stanley it's nearly 44 percent. Ads looking to attract people to become corrections officers have been hitting airwaves and online recently. The Department of Corrections expects to be able to recruit and retain more officers with the newly approved pay bump from $20 an hour to $33 a raise that went into effect this week. The Wisconsin Policy Forum just released a report titled Prison Blues which explored prison spending in the state. Research Director Jason Stein joins us on this and thanks a lot for being here. My pleasure thank you. So the Department of Corrections describes a dire staffing shortage in its prisons as evidenced by the lockdown of inmates. Max Kertie Wopon as we just mentioned with that 53 percent vacancy rate. How should this pay bump ameliorate this problem? You know it's going to help obviously across the labor market we've seen employer challenges turn over rates rising and that's across the government but in our state institutions our 24-7 institutions that's where it's been most acute. I think the challenges in 2022 there were more than 2,000 vacancies within the prison system so when you think about and you can't simply bring someone in off the street put them in a place like Wopon and have them walk the line. You have to train these people so they're going to turn the ship in the water but it's a big ship at a long turn. How long coming has this pay raise been? You know it took us years to get in this position of across the government and particularly within the prison system having these vacancies and this gap between what the state was willing to pay and what people were willing to do because coming to work every day in a prison is new slash a very difficult job and so it's going to take time to get out of this hole. Adding to that problem the state's 37 prisons are over capacity with those incarcerated and incarcerated and this has long been the case and we incarcerate more people than neighboring states. Why this mismatch with our neighbors? You know going back to the 90s Wisconsin built a large prison system and despite the fact that it's a large system it's been over capacity even when we dipped in population during the pandemic we remained over capacity. You know it comes down to we incarcerate at higher rates than our neighbors higher rates than national average and that leads to per capita spending on corrections being higher in Wisconsin than in our neighboring states. You know this is again something that you cannot change overnight but there are things that the state can do and the state has the resources now to try and bend this curve over the next generation. And how do you bend the curve in that way? You know one the biggest contributor to incarceration in the state has been revocations so it's not people that are committing a crime for the first time it may be a crime but there are people who've been released on extended supervision into the community and something whether it's substance abuse whether it's a mental health challenge whether it's new criminal activity is landing them back in the system and so the state has been has been testing methods and has actually lowered that revocation rate and so that will make a difference going forward but then we also have to ensure that public safety is maintained while those revocation rates are lowered as well. Right and I can imagine that's the kind of effort that takes a while to to bring those numbers down. Correct I mean you know substance abuse mental health challenges these are very difficult problems to deal with for anyone in the population and you know one area where the state one bright spot as the state does have within its large state surplus the ability to invest in targeted to you know to experiment and invest in targeted methods to try and deal with these problems. So Wisconsin is spending 2.76 billion dollars on corrections in the current state budget again more per inmate than surrounding states and is it a function of just having more inmates and more prisons that we're spending more than our surrounding states? Yeah it's largely a function of that and the thing that people need to understand is state prisons are not something that the federal government is going to give you money for it's not something that any other state is going to give you money for you're gonna have to pay for that as a state with your own tax dollars and so finding ways to ensure public safety but also minimize correction spending over time is going to the savings is almost entirely going to go to taxpayers if you can thread that needle. Hopefully people will start threading that needle. Jason Stein thanks very much. Thank you.