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Morning Tony.

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What is this facility, how did it come about, and what is its purpose, let's start there.

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Yeah, so this is the University of Wisconsin-Stevens point, northern aquaculture demonstration facility.

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And it exists to be a research arm of the aquaculture industry in the state of Wisconsin, ultimately.

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The state of Wisconsin recognized a need for developing aquaculture within the state.

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And part of developing aquaculture in the state is having a strong, robust research arm.

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So our mandate is to do research that supports aquaculture, but also science transfer, where we're taking that research and teaching it to prospective fish farmers.

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And then we also do outreach and education where we're teaching K-12 students or college students about aquaculture, training, future workforce, and various other aspects of developing an aquaculture industry within the state.

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So I think most people think of aquaculture and know about salmon or tilapia. Why do you have walleye?

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Yeah, I mean, we've done research with salmon and tilapia, but walleye are a species that is very valuable in the upper Midwest, especially in Wisconsin.

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And we, for the longest time, have not been able to culture walleye in captivity.

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And going forward, having walleye as a suitable aquaculture species has the potential to be very valuable.

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Right now, if you go to a supermarket or go to a Friday fish fry, and there's walleye on the menu, that walleye is almost certainly coming in as frozen flays from wild capture of fisheries in Canada.

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Which is great, but that market could be supplemented by walleye that are raised right here in Wisconsin, locally to where they're being consumed.

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So we're doing a lot of research to try to develop walleye as a suitable aquaculture species, figure out all the particularities of raising them.

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And hopefully, in the next couple years, we can have walleye that are on your plate that have been grown right here in Wisconsin.

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So what are you looking at and what have you found?

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Yeah, so we're very early in developing walleye as a suitable aquaculture species.

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Other developed species, such as Atlantic salmon, we've been raising since the 50s, 60s.

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We've been only raising walleye for 10 to 15 years, right?

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And there's a lot of challenges that you have to overcome to develop a species for aquaculture.

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And we've been iteratively working on those challenges in bottlenecks to make walleye a suitable species.

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So we've done everything from figuring out what feed to feed them at different life stages to figuring out what environmental conditions to give broodstock, what temperatures, what oxygen conditions, water quality parameters.

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We've also tried to figure out techniques that make them more suitable for food fish development.

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So can we stagger out the timing of their growth so you can bring them to market at different times and various aspects like that?

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Another thing that's neat is the research that we're doing, while it primarily has an aquaculture angle to it, often also has direct application to wild fish fisheries.

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So we're digging into the reproductive physiology of these fish and some of our findings can tell us things about the importance of winter water temperatures for walleye spawning or growth rates of various strains of walleye that we're working with.

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So it kind of has that dual application that's really neat.

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Yeah, absolutely. So for any fish species, light and temperature are very important factors.

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For walleye, temperature is really a primary driver of gonadal development.

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In the wild walleye are experiencing a cold winter. They're under the ice for the bulk of that winter period.

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And we know that that cold winter is really important for their egg development and spawning.

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We don't really have a great idea of where the thresholds are or the boundaries on how warm that winter period can be for successful reproduction.

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So we've been doing research on trying to identify where those thresholds are.

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We've found in our research that colder water temperatures are far more ideal for optimizing spawning in walleye.

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So anything four to five degrees Celsius or cooler is perfect for walleye.

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You'll get the best spawn if those fish have been exposed to those cold water temperatures.

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Approaching eight degrees Celsius and warmer, you start to see a decline in gamete quality as well as the total number of eggs spawned and milked produced by the males.

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And then even warmer than that, and we see pretty much a complete cessation of spawning.

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So this information is really useful for figuring out how to raise walleye in a captive environment like this.

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So we know now if you're going to raise walleye and have a brood stock, you should give them a really cold winter.

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To optimize their spawning.

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But it also tells us that in the wild cold winters are important.

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So these winters where we have ice out in the middle of winter might be really consequential for walleye populations and the success of walleye for spawning in that year.

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So that must be very well restrained because obviously fish south of Wisconsin will get ice conditions.

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Yeah, absolutely. A lot of people don't realize the really broad distribution of walleye.

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Even here in Wisconsin, we're kind of at the southern fringes of core walleye habitat.

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But walleye actually are present in Alabama's, so that far south.

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And those fish are certainly not getting the same winter cues that they're getting here in Wisconsin or in their core habitat in, say, Central Ontario.

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So there's certainly a strain factor at play.

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And we are doing some work on figuring out how those different strains respond to changes in climate and warmer water conditions.

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We're also seeing what genetic components that these different strains may have that make them more suitable for aquaculture, for food production.

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So is it just, I mean, people have talked a little bit about the collapse of walleye in lakes in northern Wisconsin.

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Yeah.

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How much of that can we tie now with these studies to climate change or lake shore development versus over harvest?

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Yeah, it's a really difficult question. It's really hard, especially when you're looking in natural systems, to assign a particular outcome with one individual cause.

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The fact of the matter is there's multiple stressors occurring that all in combination lead to these effects that we observe.

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What we do know is that walleye populations are struggling in a lot of portions of their range.

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And it's likely a combination of spawning habitat degradation, thermal conditions, thermal photo conditions in these lakes shifting to be less favorable for walleye.

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And also the trophic structure in lakes shifting to be more favorable for other species such as largemouth baths and less suitable for walleye.

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But the reality is all these combinations are acting in concert to have these influences on walleye and they're made a branch.

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So when the old thing of just people caught too many or bagged limits or the tribes or whatever they wanted to blame it on, often those were downstream effects.

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And sometimes over harvest can still have an effect on walleye and that's why we have our fishing regulations.

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And those regulations can change on various lakes depending on what fisheries managers are seeing.

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But yeah, by and large, a lot of the challenges that walleye are facing right now are not due to overfishing.

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It's due to those changes in photothermal habitat or changes in spawning habitat that we're seeing.

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So in some ways is it like Northwoods has gone from wild to a little more cultured as it's become the northern lake home less of the cabin,

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where the water's edge and the water's here, the powerboats.

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Like just how we use the lakes to change so much that it's changed the lakes and sucks.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You mentioned powerboats and that can be an issue.

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One of the biggest issues is sedimentation of spawning habitat.

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So while I require rocky rip wrap to disperse their eggs,

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and that needs to be well-oxygenated for those eggs to develop and ultimately hatch.

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And in a lot of systems that have a lot of sediment load, those spawning substrates can get completely covered,

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and those eggs no longer have a good well-oxygenated place to develop.

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And sometimes those eggs can even be covered by sediment in the right type of system, and that can be really detrimental.

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So who's funding all this research?

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Yeah, over the years we've had funding from a variety of different sources.

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And it depends on the project.

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Right now a lot of our funding is coming from Wisconsin Sea Grant through NOAA.

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But we've also had funding from the North Central Regional Aquaculture...

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Wait, North Central is Nick Rack.

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North Central Regional Aquaculture Center.

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Yeah, North Central Regional Aquaculture Center through USDA.

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And we've also had other sources of funding from U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service,

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and Great Lakes Fisher Commission, and Great Lakes Restoration Initiative.

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So one of the things that we try to look at through the walleye and the research is

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how it is that all this money gets poured into this wonderful species.

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And what does that say about that species?

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It's so desirable, so important that there's all this money from these different places coming in.

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Yeah, I mean walleye are tremendously culturally important for really everybody in the region.

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It's far and away the most favored sport fish in the upper Midwest.

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In my opinion, the best tasting fish that you can get.

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So there's a lot of value from a lot of different angles.

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And that contributes to why we're funding a lot of the work on developing walleye as an aquaculture species.

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And also contributes to why we're spending a lot of research money on figuring out how to conserve this species for the future.

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So tell me a little about yourself.

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You grew up in the upper Midwest.

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Walleye was not a strange species to you?

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Yeah, absolutely not.

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Grew up fishing walleye, primarily targeting walleye.

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And they're far and away my favorite species to fish for.

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And I continue to do that to this day, even though I spend a lot of time in the lab studying those fish.

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I still go out and try to catch them.

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So yeah, I'm no stranger to working with walleye, that's for sure.

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Did that make this more desirable?

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Or did you know that was going to happen when you took this job?

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Yeah, absolutely not.

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I didn't know that was going to happen when I took the job.

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However, we have the ability to kind of tailor my research program into a direction that interests us.

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And walleye is certainly one of the things that really interests me.

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Likely because of that exposure I had as a kid, fishing for walleye.

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I personally value them quite a bit and really want to see them succeed both as an aquaculture species and as a future angling opportunity for our communities or for my kids.

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Does that make the science easier or more?

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Because there's a natural scientific drive to find out the answers for things.

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But then when there's a personal passion that comes with it, you can understand the importance of getting that answer.

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Is there those kind of dovetail?

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Those certainly dovetail, yeah.

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It makes it more exciting when you really have a passion for the species.

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And an interest in that species.

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And you've seen those changes in populations over the years in the lakes that you fish.

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So there's that personal connection that makes it a lot more fun and interesting to do the research side of it.

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And do you know the fish in the tanks here? Does that help you in the lake at all?

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Absolutely not.

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Yeah, absolutely not.

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But it does change how I think about them in the lakes.

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Some of the research that we've done here, you know, makes me think about how they're going through reproductive development in the winter.

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And a lot of the best research ideas that I have I develop while I'm sitting on a lake fishing forum.

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So I understand that one of the new proposals you've got was looking at ponds.

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Yeah.

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The impact that may have on sex patients, right?

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Yeah, there's been some really interesting research into skewed sex ratios.

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At one point, the Wisconsin DNR has identified that a lot of the ponds that we're using to raise wildlife for stocking have female skewed sex ratios.

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And we don't really have a great handle on what might be causing that.

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So we've worked with Redcliffe Tree Natural Resources to put together a proposal to try to dig into that.

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That's also in collaboration with Wisconsin DNR and University of St. Thomas.

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And what are some of the ideas of why that may be?

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Yeah, there's a wide suite of potential causes for that sex ratio skew.

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One could be as simple as males take longer to develop their reproductive machinery, right?

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So they might not be showing up in those surveys.

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So that sex ratio skew could simply be harder to detect males when they're present at that early stage.

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It could also be due to temperature.

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Our wind ponds that we use to raise wildlife for stocking are often warmer than our online ponds.

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And that could contribute to that sex ratio skew.

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It could be due to fertilization regimes.

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We know that fertilization or nitrate can be an endocrine disruptor in some circumstances.

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And it also could be leachate from the liners that are used to line some of these while I rearing ponds.

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So we're hoping to dig into all of those potential sources of sex ratio skew and identify which, if any of them, are potential causes.

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So talk to me a little bit about how the interaction with NAMACOG and Lake Association, right, that all came about.

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Yeah, it's really unique to have a collaboration between a lake association, a tribal natural resources agency,

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the Wisconsin DNR and a state university, right?

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So it's a really neat project.

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It came about because the Lake Association ultimately was looking for somewhere to stock their lake with more wildlife

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that they could have more angling opportunities.

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And they approached Redcliffe to redcliffe tree natural resources to see if they could raise some wildlife for them.

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And Redcliffe has their own stocking that quotas that they need to meet.

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And we had some ponds that we were not using at the time.

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And it just so happened to work out that we could raise some of those fish for them here.

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But we wanted to have a study associated with it.

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The study that we came up with is, can we try to figure out if there's any adverse consequences to stocking fish that are raised in indoor systems into the wild.

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Right now, it's a lot cheaper to raise wildlife in indoor systems when we're able to give them a pelted feed

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and really control other sources of mortality that you can't really control in ponds.

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But if those fish that are raised indoors can't really get onto wild forage when they're stocked out, then it might not be a great option.

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So the study is looking at relative success of pond raised wildlife that are stocked into the lake compared to indoor raised wildlife that are stocked into the lake.

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And right now, Glyphlic is actually doing surveys on Lake Namacogen to look at the relative returns of our indoor and outdoor stocked fish.

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And really, it's a fin clip, right?

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Yes, so we gave all of our indoor fish a right ventral fin clip and all of our outdoor raised fish a left ventral fin clip.

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So we'll be able to see what proportion of those fish return in our population assessment in Namacogen.

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And how long will that take before you feel confident?

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Well, we've been stocking Namacogen with these right and left ventral fin-cooked fish for five years now, so we should have a good idea with this survey, what those relative returns are.

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So really, we'll have our results in two weeks here.

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It'll take a while to do the data analysis, of course, and I'll have limited bandwidth and how quickly I can dig into that data, but yeah, it'll be that quick.

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Because we were with Glyphlic last fall when they're doing their year of year of year on the survey.

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That's when they're actually looking for them, right?

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Perfect.

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So with that survey, I mean, obviously they need that, but that's all of these things that are done together, right?

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Yeah, I mean, really, the research and management of our fisheries is a really big coordinated effort between tribal natural resources agencies,

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University of Wisconsin, Stevens Point, and other state universities, and Wisconsin DNR.

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And there's a lot of different field crews and a lot of different researchers that are involved in that coordinated effort, so it's really neat.

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So do you remember what some of the numbers are from last year?

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Are we here when you were able to stop and get them started?

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I don't.

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On the top of my head.

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I want to say that last year we stocked somewhere around 10,000 fish from our ponds and closer to five or six thousand fish from indoors.

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Okay.

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So obviously they have a factory.

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Yes, we account for the differential numbers that were stocked when we're doing an analysis.

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We were out there with you last year.

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We were like, we have no idea.

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Is there any question there?

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How do you think?

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Right.

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Yeah.

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I do know that Glyphwick has captured two thousand plus fish already, and they have found clips from both indoors and outdoors in their survey.

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I don't know the relative proportion yet, so that'll be the data we dig into here in the next couple of weeks.

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I mean, how exciting is it for you to get that data back?

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Because there's one thing to be able to raise them and release them, but then to get that in?

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's tremendously exciting, especially for projects like that where there's a five-year buildup to getting those final results, right?

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So there's a lot that went into being able to see the final results of the study.

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So it's very exciting to finally do that final survey.

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Do you think that the average fisherman angler, the person that goes up in the boat, who goes alone in the water, has any idea about all different groups, agencies, and people trying to make sure there's a fish in the form?

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Yeah.

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I would anticipate that the average angler probably doesn't have a good idea of how big of a coordinated effort it is to manage walleye populations and figure out stocking regimes.

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But I hope that they do because it's really a cool process and it's something that I think a lot of people would value if they knew how much work went into it.

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So there are questions about whether it's worth it to stop fish at all.

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Yeah.

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Give them the amount of money, time, and expense versus a return.

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Some lakes where natives don't thrive.

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It's a question of, if that's not a walleye lake, why should you put more walleye in it?

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That would be a good fanfish or it must be a bastard.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, there certainly is that argument to be made.

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And in some cases, that's the decision that the DNR makes is, you know, that lake is going to be a panfish lake or something like that.

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But there is still some value to stocking lakes that no longer support natural walleye reproduction as a put and take opportunity.

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Because if we let all of the walleye lakes that no longer support natural reproduction go by the wayside,

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we're simply going to lose a lot of the opportunities to catch walleye that we once had, especially in the southern portions of the state.

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So there is still value to supporting put and take fisheries.

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And hopefully going forward, we can address some of the issues that are causing that lake to no longer support natural reproduction.

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What would be lost if walleye were, you know, who's Winnebago and the wolf, you know, that that city, that system seems fine.

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Re-basings, I'll be.

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And just, you know, that's where walleye are.

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And the state is just what it is.

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Yeah.

228
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I think that we'd still, we'd still have a lot of lost by losing those opportunities in a variety of lakes because not everybody gets to experience that fishing

229
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in those water bodies that do currently support natural reproduction, right?

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So making those opportunities more available to more groups of people that wouldn't otherwise have them still has a lot of value, I think.

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I mean, you've experienced catching fish as a kid. Do you remember your first walleye?

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I don't remember my first walleye, but I do remember a lot of really memorable walleye.

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Some of the pictures I've provided you are from some of my more memorable walleyes that I still have very core memories of catching as a kid.

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And it's different than fish.

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It is. It really is.

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First of all, walleye are just a really, really neat fish.

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They have these really captivating eyes as is their namesake.

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That's fun to watch, and they fight different than a panfish, and they taste different than a panfish too.

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Being able to put all of those components together just makes them different, right?

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I mean, when you think about the loss of walleye, would that be more painful economically or more painful culturally?

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Man, yeah. I mean, I think both, frankly, we know that a lot of anglers in this area specifically fish to target walleye, right?

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So there would be a tremendous economic loss if we lost walleye angling opportunities.

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But culturally, it is almost more of a loss in my opinion.

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Both for the communities that historically have had a lot of importance placed on walleye.

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But also for those who haven't experienced angling for them yet, right?

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You know, I want future generations to be able to catch walleye and experience the same thing I did as a kid when they're going out fishing for them.

247
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So, best case scenario, how many years in the future before it's realistic to see farm raised walleye available in this world?

248
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Best case scenario, you can actually buy farm raised walleye right now if you want.

249
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There's now three walleye aquaculture operations in the state that we're helping get started and supporting.

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And hopefully that just builds to the point where you can go to your supermarket or your fish fry at your local restaurant and get walleye that were raised right here in Wisconsin.

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And maybe that'll happen in the next five years, maybe ten years.

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It's also possible it'll never happen and never take off.

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There's a lot of challenges facing aquaculture in the state that are independent of the species being raised.

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So we hope that the research that we're doing is going to help make this more possible.

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But that's the risk of doing this research on a brand new species for aquaculture.

256
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Is that it might not work out?

257
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So what is it for you to come to work here when you see the eggs?

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I mean, you verbalize the eggs, you're stripping the eggs and then you see them, I mean, is this how weird to say they're an attachment to these fish?

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No, it's not weird to say that there's an attachment to these fish because it's a very hands-on and involved process.

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And myself and the other staff here at NADF are very involved in that process.

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As you said, everything from spawning these fish and taking care of them through the larval culture period,

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raising them up to the age where they're reproductively mature, we have to help them at every step of that journey.

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And yeah, as a result, we have a lot of investment and feel a lot of kind of pride in the fish that we've helped raise.

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And the studies and research that we're doing to help make it possible.

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So when you're trading the ponds, because you really don't know what's in there, what's that do you like for you?

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You've made it a fish.

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It's tremendously stressful because a lot of work has gone into raising those walleye before we get to that stage

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where we're harvesting those ponds.

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And you don't get to see what the results of all that labor and work is until that day when you start training.

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So it's very stressful and hopefully very rewarding, but we've had years where it's been very disappointing too.

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And that's just how it goes. That's how it is raising fish generally.

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But there's also a lot of volunteers, like the community that gets built around this.

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That's one of the great parts of it is we try to set up our harvest days and stocking days in a way that the community can make that connection

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with the work that Red Cliff treating natural resources and ourselves in Wisconsin DNR are doing.

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Oftentimes anglers don't get to have that hands-on experience with those fish.

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And I think it's really valuable when they're involved in collecting them out of the ponds, doing those fin clips,

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and putting them back into the lake that they're going to fish later that day.

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That's a really unique experience that helps drive home the importance of it.

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Different connection, I'm sure, for them. I know there's fish in here.

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Yeah, and I might have handled that fish and gave it the fin clip before I catch it three years later.

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That's a really cool connection.

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What is that normal timeline for a fish up here?

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Yeah, I mean, it's when we're stocking the fish that were raised in the ponds or indoors,

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we're generally stocking them at eight or nine inches in the October and November of the year that they were raised.

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And it's potential, or it's possible that you would catch that fish in two years after it was stocked.

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You know, you might see that.

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And it's probably reproductively mature three or four years after that.

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So some of those first fish are now reproducing, hopefully, naturally.

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Yeah, and they're some trophy fish.

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Absolutely, yeah. You can go in Lake Anambicoggan and catch, especially some of our earlier years of stocking.

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You can catch some of those fish right now, and if it has a left or right ventral fin clip,

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you know that it came from here as part of that study.

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So cool.

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Yeah.

295
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All right, I think we're good here.

296
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Okay.

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I would like it if you can get me some numbers.

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You can email that.

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It's probably easiest.

300
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Yeah, yeah, for the.

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We were able to do the indoor and outdoor last year.

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Yeah.

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And I actually have that for all five years.

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Oh, work.

305
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Yeah.

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And potentially, like I said, we'll be getting the returns.

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And I can try to analyze that data quickly so that you can have the results of that study to share.

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I would say I'll be writing this through May and June.

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Okay.

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But there can be.