WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:03.480 Alright, you can talk to me, don't worry about all of this. 00:03.480 --> 00:05.780 Yeah, sure, it has been short. 00:05.780 --> 00:08.020 So, I guess, let's go back to the beginning. 00:08.020 --> 00:09.620 You were born in Montello, right? 00:09.620 --> 00:10.620 Yes. 00:10.620 --> 00:11.620 Yep. 00:11.620 --> 00:12.620 And so, did you grow up fishing? 00:12.620 --> 00:14.760 Was fishing something passed down to you? 00:14.760 --> 00:16.260 Yeah, it sure was. 00:16.260 --> 00:21.460 My dad liked to fish, and that's how I ended up in Montello, because he was from Kenosha, 00:21.460 --> 00:28.680 and his parents and his grandfather would come up here fishing as tourists, back in the 00:29.680 --> 00:30.680 1920s and 30s. 00:30.680 --> 00:36.360 So, he met my mom in Montello, she wasn't as his fish. 00:36.360 --> 00:44.120 She was 13, and they ended up eventually falling in love, getting married, and then they moved. 00:44.120 --> 00:50.960 He moved to Montello after World War II, and so my mom was still there. 00:50.960 --> 00:58.640 Same house on the river, yeah, she's 96, so yeah, it's kind of in my blood. 00:58.640 --> 01:02.400 So how did she end up, did she work at a resort, or helped out on the boat, or she 01:02.400 --> 01:04.080 just met him, and he took her off? 01:04.080 --> 01:06.080 Yeah, well, her dad owned a bait. 01:06.080 --> 01:11.760 He was locked tender at the locks of the dam there, and then she would always be down 01:11.760 --> 01:17.280 there helping him, and cleaning his rental boats, and bailing water out of them, because 01:17.280 --> 01:22.480 they're wooden and leaped, and that's how people shorefished, and that's how she met 01:22.480 --> 01:23.480 my dad. 01:23.480 --> 01:27.280 So, she would run around that fish, not just for him, but for other people too. 01:27.760 --> 01:34.640 Yeah, and I grew up there helping my grandfather then, her dad doing the same stuff. 01:34.640 --> 01:38.000 Now, was walleye the big thing back then? 01:38.000 --> 01:44.480 Well, walleyes were a big thing, but it was a big catfish river, it was a pox river, so 01:44.480 --> 01:52.360 a lot of catfish, croppies, some bass, smallmouth bass especially, and of course, a good number 01:52.360 --> 01:57.960 of walleyes that would come out of Lake Puckaway, Lake Winnebago system, yeah. 01:57.960 --> 02:03.080 So, growing up for you was fishing a diversion, or was it like a passion? 02:03.080 --> 02:04.520 Oh, it was a passion. 02:04.520 --> 02:06.600 Yeah, I mean, it was every day. 02:06.600 --> 02:13.960 It was 3 a.m., and before school, it was all weekend, it was all summer. 02:13.960 --> 02:14.960 Yeah. 02:14.960 --> 02:20.480 So, then, you were a ton before that, you know, you kind of came into your early life 02:20.480 --> 02:25.560 and trying to find a job, trying to start a family, and, you know, what was fishing 02:25.560 --> 02:26.560 at that point? 02:26.560 --> 02:29.400 Was that like where you wanted to get to? 02:29.400 --> 02:34.320 Yeah, you know, after high school, I went to college, all that kind of stuff, and got 02:34.320 --> 02:40.240 drafted, Vietnam War thing going on, and came back, and I worked at a resort when I came 02:40.240 --> 02:41.240 back. 02:41.240 --> 02:45.040 Jobs were hard to find anyways, so I thought, well, if I'm going to work for that same amount 02:45.040 --> 02:49.200 of money, I'll work at a resort, and then I became a fishing guide there. 02:49.200 --> 02:54.360 So, I really, that helped a lot, and I really enjoyed that, getting people on fish and 02:54.360 --> 03:00.320 teaching them how to fish, and worked other jobs, did my freelance writing, started to 03:00.320 --> 03:02.080 do that. 03:02.080 --> 03:08.520 The freelance writing was really the big stepping stone, because I got to meet people in the 03:08.520 --> 03:15.920 fishing industry, manufacturers, manufacturers, representatives, that kind of thing, and, of 03:15.920 --> 03:17.480 course, pro fishermen. 03:17.840 --> 03:18.840 Excuse me. 03:21.840 --> 03:25.520 What are they about, sorry about that. 03:25.520 --> 03:33.760 And, you know, people in the industry, manufacturers, representatives, pro fishermen, and so on, 03:33.760 --> 03:39.720 and other writers, and resort owners, so, just kind of, 03:39.720 --> 04:04.120 like I said, like I said, the other day, I'm quite cold, and not coughed all day, and 04:04.120 --> 04:07.720 didn't cough the whole time we were talking earlier, no worries. 04:09.720 --> 04:16.080 Ooh, yeah. 04:16.080 --> 04:19.640 You can keep a glass, and kind of buy you if you want. 04:19.640 --> 04:30.080 You're going to, well, I want a cup. 04:30.080 --> 04:33.280 Yeah, perfect. 04:33.280 --> 04:35.880 Where's my fishing hall of feet? 04:36.880 --> 04:43.840 Oh, yeah, that'll help. 04:43.840 --> 04:49.840 I hope you want me to do that over here. 04:49.840 --> 04:53.040 No, we'll just keep going from there. 04:53.040 --> 04:57.160 So you were kind of manufacturing your own path, in a way. 04:57.160 --> 05:02.840 Yeah, yeah, kind of, I loved freelance writing. 05:02.840 --> 05:12.040 And I got fortunate enough to be able to write for all the big three magazines, outdoor 05:12.040 --> 05:18.120 life field and street sports field, and then just little things, not a lot, but in those 05:18.120 --> 05:24.360 days it paid very well, and then if you had photographs as well. 05:24.360 --> 05:31.160 So I was finally making a decent living, and that, but I always wanted to be not interviewing 05:31.160 --> 05:36.360 tournament anglers, I wanted to be interviewing, I wanted to be the angler, right? 05:36.360 --> 05:41.120 And so I started fishing bass tournaments, did well, I won the state championship, I won 05:41.120 --> 05:46.920 your, and then met a guy who fished the walleye circuit, and he said, hey, how would you 05:46.920 --> 05:48.600 like to fish the walleye circuit? 05:48.600 --> 05:52.480 And I said, I can't afford it, and he said, well, I got a board, I got this, I got that, 05:52.480 --> 05:53.880 was put the cost. 05:53.880 --> 05:56.800 And so I paired up with him. 05:56.800 --> 06:02.920 We did really well, won three tournaments, the very first year, sponsorships came, and 06:02.920 --> 06:05.880 bam, then it really took off after that. 06:05.880 --> 06:08.040 What, what, Ron, what time was that? 06:08.040 --> 06:09.040 That was 1988-89. 06:09.040 --> 06:17.160 So you'd pick your juice, and that was 15, you wasn't immediate, right? 06:17.160 --> 06:24.560 Oh no, sure wasn't, and I didn't know if it would ever happen, I didn't expect it to. 06:25.560 --> 06:27.960 There was an opportunity. 06:27.960 --> 06:33.560 I did seize the opportunity, and I set a goal, a five-year goal, and I thought, if I don't 06:33.560 --> 06:40.080 make these goals, in five years, I'll get out, made them in one year. 06:40.080 --> 06:47.680 So then you couldn't get out, because it was too fun, and it paid well, so yeah. 06:47.680 --> 06:52.560 So how does a professional walleye fisherman make a living? 06:52.560 --> 06:57.160 Is it mostly from sponsorships, or is it from the tournament winnings, or how does that 06:57.160 --> 06:58.160 happen? 06:58.160 --> 07:02.360 Yeah, at first it's a combination. 07:02.360 --> 07:07.360 Usually when you start out, you don't have sponsorships, or they're very small, but it 07:07.360 --> 07:08.840 all helps. 07:08.840 --> 07:13.000 So then winnings really help. 07:13.000 --> 07:20.440 You gain notoriety, you get speaking engagements, you have to be willing to do them, and that 07:20.440 --> 07:27.320 means traveling all over the United States, all the way along at sport shows, and giving 07:27.320 --> 07:29.480 seminars on walleye fishing. 07:29.480 --> 07:35.960 I liked doing that anyway, so whatever an opportunity was there, I would take it. 07:35.960 --> 07:41.520 And it's interesting, because there again, they paid a lot for speakers. 07:41.520 --> 07:50.760 My professional walleye angers were rare, prior to the mid-80s, the only walleye pros 07:50.760 --> 07:57.600 were outdoor writers who fished with good walleye guides, so they knew how to do it, and they 07:57.600 --> 08:00.400 would come into the shows and talk about it. 08:00.400 --> 08:05.320 There was no competitive walleye angling, well, once that started, and you proved yourself 08:05.320 --> 08:11.000 a winner, then you could get the stage time to go and talk about your winning tactics 08:11.000 --> 08:16.200 and things you do, and how you learn, and how to tweak things, and just how to be a 08:16.200 --> 08:18.200 better angler. 08:18.200 --> 08:23.120 So for some of the people that would show up to this, were they hoping to be competitive 08:23.120 --> 08:27.240 anglers, or these just, your average fishermen who just wanted to get a little better, and 08:27.240 --> 08:29.200 catch the wall? 08:29.200 --> 08:39.280 Usually, most of the time it's guys that they want to win, you talk to them, they compete 08:39.280 --> 08:47.480 a lot of stuff, they race it all, cars, they do all that dirt bikes, they're always racing, 08:47.480 --> 08:53.800 but yeah, they're competitors, so that they do it for the competition, they want to win, 08:53.800 --> 08:59.640 some want to do it to make a living, some just do it because they enjoy the competition, 08:59.640 --> 09:06.560 but they hit maybe owner-owned business, I have some other jabbing away from, self-employed, 09:06.560 --> 09:12.800 whatever, they're never looking to become a full-time professional, they don't want 09:12.800 --> 09:17.800 to speak at shows in the winter, they want to go to Florida in fish oil winter, get it 09:17.800 --> 09:24.240 under yachts, so, which is good, because if everybody wanted to do that, then it waters 09:24.240 --> 09:31.640 down the whole field, so there's always a handful, and it's always the same guys, year 09:31.640 --> 09:38.760 after year after year, doing these circuits, and we would, a handful of us would speak 09:38.760 --> 09:43.600 and take a regular route, and then actually we have a different route, and third year 09:43.600 --> 09:49.640 another route, and then they're ready for you again, two or three years later, and some 09:49.640 --> 09:53.480 sports shows would have you every year. 09:53.480 --> 10:00.720 So, how much of what percentage of your life was actual tournaments versus talking about 10:00.720 --> 10:01.720 tournaments? 10:01.720 --> 10:09.240 Yeah, well, the tournaments would run from mid-March to October, and then all the time 10:09.240 --> 10:13.960 after that, you're not tournament fishing, if that's your profession, you've got to make 10:13.960 --> 10:20.680 money in the winter, and of course, that's most of it, because March, October, it's about 10:20.680 --> 10:27.680 half a year, so your other half is speaking engagements, period, or guiding, a lot of 10:27.680 --> 10:37.960 guys still guided in between, and guided late into fall and early spring, I quit guiding 10:37.960 --> 10:42.680 three years into it, I could just couldn't keep doing it, and mainly because I was fishing 10:42.680 --> 10:48.920 three circuits, you know, once, while I tournament circuits proved successful, then all these 10:48.920 --> 10:54.360 other circuits started popping up, bigger money, you know, getting sponsorships from 10:54.360 --> 11:02.480 elsewhere and longer travel, you weren't just fishing midwest anymore, but if you, that 11:02.480 --> 11:05.560 was your profession, that's what you did, I mean, you just went where the tournaments 11:05.560 --> 11:13.440 were, and the paybacks were way better, sponsors liked it, so that, the more you did, the 11:13.440 --> 11:19.160 more you got paid to do it, that's kind of how it works, and then the rest of the time 11:19.160 --> 11:26.560 of the year, you're promoting sponsors during your seminars, you know, so for you, did you 11:26.560 --> 11:32.080 get a chance to come back to Wisconsin and fish here, or was that kind of lost to you 11:32.080 --> 11:33.080 for a time? 11:33.080 --> 11:38.240 Oh, it's really lost, the only time I fished in Wisconsin was when it was a tournament 11:38.240 --> 11:45.600 here, we would come, I was, like I said, fishing two or three circuits, one time three, 11:45.600 --> 11:53.600 I did 19 tournaments that year, not counting the championships, so my wife and I, she would 11:53.600 --> 11:58.240 travel with me and help me out, she was kind of my jack of all trades, and she would take 11:58.240 --> 12:05.280 care of all the side distractions that I didn't want to have to do, I wanted to focus on fishing, 12:05.280 --> 12:12.560 so she would take care of all that, and so that, yeah, when I came home, all I did was 12:12.560 --> 12:17.480 get the boat ready for the next tournaments, I didn't even have time to fish here, but 12:17.480 --> 12:24.640 at the tournament was I won a bag, if it was in Green Bay, Pete and Wells Floyd, kind of 12:24.640 --> 12:29.880 the most popular place for walleye tournaments, yeah, then I fished. 12:29.880 --> 12:36.760 So this, our documentary is talking about walleye in Wisconsin as a significant cultural 12:36.760 --> 12:43.840 species, also connected to economy and tourism and tournaments, and so for you, did walleye 12:43.840 --> 12:50.480 still hold a special place, or once it became like a livelihood, did it kind of shift? 12:50.480 --> 12:55.840 That's a great question, walleye, because I grew up fishing walleyes in the Fox River, 12:55.840 --> 13:01.440 they were like the golden boy of the fishery, you know what I mean, everybody, the elusive 13:01.440 --> 13:07.920 walleye walleye, that's all we ever read about or heard about, and how hard they were to catch, 13:07.920 --> 13:13.840 and they were never hard for me to catch, I never bought that, I never thought, why do 13:13.840 --> 13:21.600 people keep saying that, because it's not true, but for a lot of people they can be, 13:21.600 --> 13:29.840 they're a special fish, and yes, when I would come home, we have a walleye run here in March, 13:29.840 --> 13:33.760 up the Fox River, and I would always fish that, and then there would always be a smaller run 13:33.760 --> 13:38.640 on the fall, and I would fish that, and then I'd do some walleye fishing on Big Green Lake, 13:38.640 --> 13:46.000 and do some, because I guided for walleye server, so Lake Puckaway, same way, I quit fishing 13:46.000 --> 13:49.840 Wisconsin River, because I just didn't need to go there, because I could catch them elsewhere, 13:51.200 --> 13:58.800 fishing all over the US made me a better angler here, but fishing here made me a way better 13:58.800 --> 14:05.200 angler elsewhere, and I think that's why the Wisconsin tournament anglers, especially, 14:05.840 --> 14:11.840 were so good under professional walleye trail, I mean we just outshined everybody, 14:12.480 --> 14:20.000 almost everybody, just because of our knowledge of fishing on this Winnebago system, a tough system, 14:20.000 --> 14:23.280 but once you've got to figure it out, man, it's so good, you know. 14:24.640 --> 14:28.480 So that's the key, once you, if you can fish them here, you can do it anywhere. 14:28.480 --> 14:33.760 Yeah, I believe that, and well, I proved it, and so have several other anglers, so yeah. 14:34.400 --> 14:38.720 So you have the ultimate home field test, the home field advantage thing. 14:39.680 --> 14:46.960 Absolutely, and you know, even yet, when I catch a walleye today, I mean, I just look at that, 14:46.960 --> 14:53.360 I just marvel at that fish, it's just a very special fish, and I never, no, I never took it 14:53.360 --> 14:58.320 for granted, I mean, I could catch the replacement going and catch 100 walleyes a day, you know, 14:58.320 --> 15:04.000 there's fish that are using North America that good, and even in a half a day sometimes, 15:04.000 --> 15:09.840 it's so plentiful, but you never got tired of it, you never got tired of going the next day 15:09.840 --> 15:14.880 and catching some more fish, and catching those walleyes, and it didn't matter if they were 10 15:14.880 --> 15:21.360 pounds or 10 inches, you know, it's just not for me anyway, for some people maybe, but not for me, 15:21.360 --> 15:30.400 it's just a special fish. So what's it like to have a walleye on? Is it the anticipation for 15:30.400 --> 15:34.640 you of like when they're about to, or setting the hook, or is it getting them in the boat, 15:34.640 --> 15:42.800 what are the different moments in that action? Yeah, I'm a caster, so I'm casting baits out, 15:42.800 --> 15:48.880 retrieving, I mean, I catch, obviously, I have to learn how to catch walleyes in every method 15:48.880 --> 15:56.400 to be professional, you can't just use one thing, or you get a lot of zeros, you know, so I had to 15:56.400 --> 16:00.640 learn these other methods, but my favorite is casting, it's usually casting a jig, 16:00.640 --> 16:09.440 pitching it out, working a lot on the bottom, and when you feel that it's just something special, 16:09.440 --> 16:17.360 it's just like that, you know right away what it is, and I know a lot of fish bites, small 16:17.360 --> 16:23.680 mop bite like that, and a large mop bite, and a pike bite, but you can, if you're caught enough 16:23.680 --> 16:29.920 and dead enough, you can tell, and just just just feeling that, I mean, it's exciting, I mean, 16:29.920 --> 16:37.200 the most exciting thing for me in fishing is the bite, it was the same way musky fishing, 16:37.200 --> 16:43.520 bass fishing, top water, that's the most exciting thing, actually finding catching a fish is no big, 16:43.520 --> 16:49.840 you know, that's all part of the stick, but feeling that bite is so cool, this is, it says, 16:49.920 --> 16:55.680 since such a rush, you know, and it's in walleyes way more subtle than those other fish, but 16:56.480 --> 17:01.840 maybe that's what makes it so much better, and because they're in the perch family, perch bite 17:01.840 --> 17:09.200 the same way, even more subtle, so I love the fish perch with jigs the same way, it's just a 17:09.200 --> 17:17.360 few little tap, and yeah, that's the deal, it's like what's the best part about bobber fishing, 17:17.360 --> 17:22.080 when the bobber goes down, I mean, the same thing, and I still get excited about that when 17:22.080 --> 17:28.960 I fish with bobbers, so, and yeah, so I mean, could you have been as successful as you have been 17:28.960 --> 17:37.120 without still enjoying every part of it? No, I don't think so, I don't think so, I mean, yeah, 17:37.120 --> 17:46.000 it's a job, I never, I don't know, every fish I caught, even if it wasn't a keeper, you know, 17:46.000 --> 17:52.880 even if it wasn't a money fish, it was just, it was just wow, you know, it was just that wow 17:52.880 --> 18:00.000 factor every time, it wasn't like that, that, you know, I don't care and just throw it, you know, 18:00.000 --> 18:05.840 I would never do that, just drop over the side and let them go, because that fish is special, I mean, 18:05.840 --> 18:13.200 you know, that's 10 years from now, he's that 10 pounder, you know. So, why didn't you go into 18:13.280 --> 18:19.120 small boat, is that, you know, bass tournaments are what a lot of people, most average non-fishermen, 18:19.120 --> 18:23.680 they've heard of big bass tournaments, you see, right, oh yeah, but it seems like that's where 18:23.680 --> 18:29.920 the money would be, so why? That's totally where the money is, and still is, and 18:31.680 --> 18:40.080 but the money started to come into the walleye thing in the in the late 1980s, and I thought, 18:40.080 --> 18:47.760 well, this isn't bass, and I would, and I always wanted to be a bass guy, I mean, you know, those 18:47.760 --> 18:54.240 guys, they had the TV shows, and a lot of those guys actually are friends of mine today, because 18:54.240 --> 19:01.200 we're all in the industry, but, and they would always tease me, that was fishing those walleyes, 19:01.200 --> 19:05.680 and they were always, you're never going to make any money doing that, why don't you get into the 19:05.680 --> 19:13.040 bass, and, but that's an expensive deal, I mean, you just, you just, yeah, and just to get through 19:13.040 --> 19:19.280 all the qualifying and stuff to, to do it, is brutal, but there are guys that, they're still 19:19.280 --> 19:24.080 doing it, these young guys today are just amazing how they've come in, and we've got some in our 19:24.080 --> 19:31.520 own state here that have done great, you know, fishing all over the country for bass, had the 19:31.600 --> 19:39.840 walleye thing not panned out, say the money was never there, I couldn't tell you if I would have 19:39.840 --> 19:45.680 gotten into bass or not, I may have probably just kept freelancing, writing, guiding, you know, doing 19:45.680 --> 19:53.520 both, because it was something I liked, and it was easy, and it was here, and, you know, it didn't 19:53.600 --> 20:00.640 have a lot of expenses, turn like fishing is expensive, I mean, even in the, even in the 90s, 20:01.200 --> 20:08.080 you're dropping 25 to 35,000 a year, and that was a lot of money back then, if you didn't have 20:08.080 --> 20:14.320 the sponsors, was coming out of your own pocket, you couldn't sustain that if you weren't good, 20:14.320 --> 20:21.200 you know, if you just showed up and fished, so you really had to perform, it's a performance 20:21.200 --> 20:25.440 sport, yeah. Well, you're talking about that before, but how much of it is mental, 20:26.240 --> 20:30.720 comparing it, I mean, it is interesting that you've heard people talk about pro athletes, 20:30.720 --> 20:35.440 and there's a lot more people that have the same physical qualifications, but they may not have 20:35.440 --> 20:40.320 the mental makeup. Well, yeah, you see that all the time, I mean, if you're watching a lot of 20:40.320 --> 20:45.600 sports, you see that in an athlete, and you see it in so many guys were Heisman Trophy winners, 20:46.080 --> 20:53.600 they had the physical skill, but they didn't have what we call it, they didn't have it, 20:53.600 --> 21:01.040 they just couldn't make it work with a team. Now, granted fishing is not a team sport, 21:02.800 --> 21:09.280 well, it can be, but most of the time it's not, so it's individual, it's you against the fish, 21:10.240 --> 21:16.080 you against yourself, and you can't control anything anybody else is doing, 21:16.080 --> 21:23.440 you just have to focus on what you're doing. So the longer you stay in the game mentally, 21:23.440 --> 21:31.040 the better chance you have, and, but you still gotta have the skills, you just can't say, well, 21:31.040 --> 21:36.640 I'm a Jake Fisherman, I hate trolling, period, that's me, okay, I'm a Jake Fisherman, I hate 21:36.720 --> 21:46.320 trolling, it was me in 1988. By 1995, I had, I look, I gotta learn how to do this, because we're 21:46.320 --> 21:51.680 on more and more lakes, we're a troll, I gotta learn how to fish bottom bounces and spinner rigs, 21:51.680 --> 21:57.440 I gotta learn how to fish slip bobber rigs, and have the patience to do it, which is a whole 21:57.440 --> 22:02.640 mental game, and, and I learned, I learned all those things, I want tournaments doing all those 22:02.640 --> 22:09.760 things, and had I not been versatile, I would have maybe won one or two tournaments, 22:10.640 --> 22:18.880 doing it the way I like, and that don't pay the bills, yeah, I mean, if you're independently wealthy, 22:18.880 --> 22:24.800 you don't care fine, do your stick, but, but, but then what you're gonna do, you know, I, if I'm 22:24.800 --> 22:30.640 going to a sports show and, and do a seminar, and somebody, the audience says, how do you work 22:30.640 --> 22:36.560 planer boards, how do you, how much line do you set back on, on a floating bait, floating 22:36.560 --> 22:40.960 rapel up, for example, with a small lip, you know, how deep does it go about it, you got to answer 22:40.960 --> 22:46.320 those questions, if you want to continue to, to excel in the sport, you got to know this stuff, 22:46.320 --> 22:52.000 and, and, and a lot of guys didn't want to learn it, they said, I don't like doing that, something 22:52.000 --> 22:58.960 I can learn it, well, so you, you guided for quite a few years before that, what's the experience 22:58.960 --> 23:03.920 like as a guide, well, I guess what's the, the, these are different roles of how people see a 23:03.920 --> 23:07.840 guide, like I can, I'll take you there and show you versus I'll give you an experience. 23:09.040 --> 23:17.360 Yeah, um, guide, I had a real love hate relationship with a guy, because you book a guide trip, 23:18.240 --> 23:23.440 they want to go, and they don't care if the wind's blowing, if it's raining, snowing, 23:24.320 --> 23:28.000 and you don't want to go, you would beat up all day of the day before, 23:29.520 --> 23:37.440 with guiding, you have an eight hour day, in the boat, with, with two clients, okay, 23:38.080 --> 23:43.600 so you get up at four a.m., get everything ready, get it in, go and get the bait, get the tackle, 23:43.600 --> 23:49.840 meet, meet them at the ramp, they're all fired up, okay, they've had, they've had breakfast, 23:49.840 --> 23:54.480 you have, and you grab some coffee, a quick trip or whatever, you know, and it did a horrible 23:54.480 --> 23:59.200 doughnut, and, and as you breakfast, so they're, they're fired up, they get out there, they fish 23:59.200 --> 24:05.840 your fish all day, uh, fish may not be doing so well, cold front, whatever, and so you have to make 24:05.840 --> 24:12.560 them feel like they're having a good time, having a good experience, uh, you have to have a whole 24:12.560 --> 24:19.680 lifetime of stories to tell, to share with them, uh, people in common that you might know 24:19.680 --> 24:25.520 that you can tell stories about, and it's, it's all way more, just sitting there like a bump on 24:25.520 --> 24:30.880 a log all day in the boat, not talking, and moving around the places, you gotta know your lake, 24:30.880 --> 24:35.040 you gotta know the techniques, you gotta be willing to say, look guys, well, always aren't 24:35.040 --> 24:39.760 gonna bite, I mean this cold front's so bad, let's go, you want to catch some, let's go fish 24:39.760 --> 24:43.760 northerners or something, yeah, well it's better or nothing, then you go out and you catch 24:43.760 --> 24:48.080 20 northerners and a couple great big giant ones, they had a great day, they didn't get their 24:48.080 --> 24:56.720 walleyes, but they still had a great day, then there's no fish days, I guaranteed fish, so 24:57.440 --> 25:03.440 if I had a no fish day with client clients, I would say, look, it's guaranteed, come back, 25:03.440 --> 25:09.760 we'll do this again, I says it's not gonna happen twice, so, and uh, some would take me up on it, 25:09.760 --> 25:14.720 some wouldn't, you know, and it always felt bad, I always felt like, you know, I let them down, 25:14.720 --> 25:25.040 you know, uh, as a guide, and yeah, it's, it's a hard job, and you drop them off, okay, 25:25.680 --> 25:29.200 then they got fish, they want you to help them clean them, so you help clean the fish, 25:29.200 --> 25:34.560 and they want to have lunch supper with you, they want to buy a supper, and then maybe sit around 25:34.560 --> 25:39.680 and have a few beverages, and you get home at 10 o'clock at night, and you got charged batteries, 25:39.680 --> 25:43.440 you got to get beat for the next day, you got to get everything all cleaned up because you got 25:43.440 --> 25:50.800 two new people the next day, I don't know how these guys do it, I mean, I did it, and it was hard, 25:50.800 --> 25:56.160 and I know guys that do it, and they just love it, every day they go, here we go, let's go get 25:56.160 --> 26:02.480 some fish, I'm like, and they won't even get the fish, like I didn't fish, I let them fish, 26:02.480 --> 26:08.080 I only fish to show them how to, you know, how to do it, but so then you're not even fishing, 26:08.080 --> 26:14.640 so that man, it's wicked, so that's why you did it when you had to pay some bills, tournament 26:14.640 --> 26:19.840 fish was way more fun, believe me, although a guy didn't even meet so many cool people, and 26:20.800 --> 26:26.640 you get repeat customers like crazy, you know. But there's got to be a joy that comes from 26:26.640 --> 26:31.840 giving them an experience, when they have those. Oh, for sure, my favorite was guiding, you know, 26:32.720 --> 26:37.440 dad and his son, or dad and his daughter, the kids getting the fish, I mean, that, 26:37.440 --> 26:43.840 those were special, I tried to do more of that than adults. I'm sure you get a lot of guys that 26:43.840 --> 26:47.200 think they know a lot, and they're just, they're there to learn, you know, where's the good spot, 26:47.200 --> 26:53.680 how to pay the next time, right? Yeah, one of the toughest is you get them on good fish, 26:53.680 --> 26:57.680 you go on the next day and they're there with their buddies and their boats, you can't even 26:57.680 --> 27:04.240 get there and fishing with your clients, that happens to, but you know, it's part of the deal. 27:06.080 --> 27:13.520 So, did you also eat well, I mean, was that ever? Oh, heck yeah. Yeah, still do. Yeah, 27:13.520 --> 27:18.160 every chance I get, I fish walleyes a little now, I don't fish them a lot. 27:20.480 --> 27:28.480 You know, there's just my wife and I and, you know, one 18 inch walleyes of meal. I don't need five, 27:29.360 --> 27:36.480 you know, I don't need three. So, you know, just get one for meal, next time she wants 27:36.480 --> 27:41.600 walleye, go get another one. It's kind of like the permanent freezer, right? It's always stocked. 27:41.600 --> 27:48.720 Yeah, you get them fresh, you know, yeah. But what is it about walleye eating them that's 27:48.720 --> 27:56.320 different than other fish? Yeah, they're, they're flaky. I mean, they're, they're more solid. 27:57.600 --> 28:04.640 I really think actually Northern Pike is just as good, you know, a lot of people don't think so. 28:04.640 --> 28:13.600 I do, you know, I eat both, you know, still do. Let's do it. And there's this whole stigma around 28:13.600 --> 28:19.520 the walleye, you know, the price of them in a restaurant, for example, some people think, 28:20.240 --> 28:24.720 you know, if I'm paying 20 bucks for a meal of walleyes, it must really taste good. Oh, yeah, 28:24.720 --> 28:31.680 that's delicious. And they take this in here, you know. Yeah. Well, that's interesting, 28:32.160 --> 28:38.560 there is a lot of mystique around walleye in Wisconsin. What's the history of that? Where did all 28:38.560 --> 28:46.160 that, how did that, that culture get built up around this one fish? Well, I think the guides, 28:46.160 --> 28:53.440 I think the guides perpetrate a lot of that mainly because they can be tough to catch 28:54.000 --> 29:00.960 for the average fisherman. They don't act all the time, like they're not as predictable as other 29:00.960 --> 29:07.840 fish for one thing. They move, they don't, they have shorter feeding periods and a lot of fish. 29:07.840 --> 29:13.040 They're very good at feeding. So they catch, you know, their bait fish pretty quick and then 29:13.040 --> 29:21.200 they shut down. And so I think that, the fact that they're more difficult to find, to catch, 29:22.000 --> 29:27.440 has made, has created this whole mystique about walleye fishing. And they're always, 29:28.240 --> 29:34.000 not always, but they're often in deep water and shallow water fish are always easier to catch. 29:34.000 --> 29:39.440 And no matter what the species, so deeper water fish are tougher, you know, more line, 29:39.440 --> 29:45.440 more mistakes, more snags, more things that, that you have less control over that the more 29:45.440 --> 29:53.920 line you have out the less control you have always. And, and so, yeah, we're in a bagel being shallow, 29:54.880 --> 30:01.120 puck away, box, remember being shallow, easy, easy peasy. So I never looked at them as being 30:01.120 --> 30:08.480 hard to catch. So I got in a tournament trail and had to fish deep water fish. Wait a minute, 30:08.480 --> 30:12.560 I've never done this, you know, so you have, I shouldn't say never, but you have to learn 30:13.360 --> 30:19.920 the whole, the way they act differently in different bodies of water too, you know, so. 30:20.560 --> 30:26.480 But, yeah, I mean, it seems like it's the combination of they're, they, they're not easy, 30:26.480 --> 30:30.480 they don't jump in the boat. And then the value of what they're like on the plate, 30:30.480 --> 30:36.160 like those two things together. Sure. And not, and they're a nocturnal species. So a lot of times, 30:36.160 --> 30:41.200 they've come up to feed shallow at night. And that's when you catch them like the last half hour before 30:41.200 --> 30:48.320 dark. So it's like a crazy half hour fishing and then nothing. Okay, so, so a lot of people don't 30:48.320 --> 30:55.760 get that opportunity or early morning. So there's that. But of course, in professional fishing, 30:55.760 --> 31:00.240 we didn't fish at night. We fished in daytime. So we had to learn how to adjust. How do we get 31:00.240 --> 31:07.520 these fish to bite in the daytime? Where are they? How do we make them bite? And I don't know that 31:07.520 --> 31:16.240 you could make them bite. You know, but you can at times trigger some fish with certain 31:16.880 --> 31:24.560 tricks and tweaks and stuff, you do it presentation, which gets us into a whole another four hour 31:24.560 --> 31:34.080 summer on how to present the bait properly to the mood of the fish. Yeah. So when it, when you look 31:34.080 --> 31:39.840 back at the, the history of, like you said, this place was up north for a lot of. Yes. And then 31:39.920 --> 31:47.760 there's up north today, which is Hayward. Yeah. How much of that mystique plays into up north, 31:47.760 --> 31:54.080 like it had to be a tribal destination for a lot. It's kind of that too. Yeah. We're in the same way 31:54.080 --> 31:59.360 with Northern Pike, you know, it's kind of like a, you know, it's a Canadian that whole Canadian 31:59.360 --> 32:04.560 walleye norther. That's all they ever talk about up there. Come up to Canada and catch all these 32:04.560 --> 32:09.920 fish. Well, we have these fish. And so, uh, and we have these fish all the way into Illinois. 32:10.480 --> 32:18.080 So in Michigan, Minnesota. So why, why do I have to go there? But, uh, uh, so yeah, people 32:18.080 --> 32:22.640 want it. They want to catch those fish. They think big fish. Oh, you get the big fish, you know, 32:22.640 --> 32:28.560 the big predator fish is always part of that. Cause, cause they, they do grow big. 32:29.440 --> 32:34.160 People don't eat a lot of, you know, people never ate a lot of bass in Wisconsin. 32:34.880 --> 32:40.240 Uh, they did, when I was a kid for subsistence, a lot of, a lot of the neighbors that ate bass 32:40.240 --> 32:45.440 all the time. Uh, but other people would, well, we don't eat bass. Well, they didn't have to, 32:45.440 --> 32:50.640 they had walleyes, they had norther and say it perts, bluegills, uh, like we, and we still do 32:50.640 --> 32:55.120 today when they can, they don't have to eat these other fish, but there's nothing wrong with those 32:55.200 --> 33:02.560 fish. And you just don't want to eat them in July, you know, but the rest of the year when the 33:02.560 --> 33:08.400 water's cool or cold, they're fine. You know, but because of the abundance of these good eating 33:08.400 --> 33:14.240 fish, so to speak, but then those same people ate ball heads and catfish and, and they're, 33:14.240 --> 33:22.560 they're no great meal, but they're not horrible either. So yeah, you need a matter of fish, you know. 33:23.520 --> 33:30.000 So one of the, the things that we're looking at is how much attention the state and like the 33:30.000 --> 33:36.640 DNR or the universities and their researchers or Glyphwick or the tribes and they're all the 33:36.640 --> 33:43.120 stocking and the research and the studies and there's a lot of attention on one species. Yeah. 33:43.840 --> 33:49.520 Is it warranted for that one species to have so much money sunk into these? And in a lot of places, 33:50.080 --> 33:55.360 populations are declining due to a number of different factors and there's so much effort 33:55.360 --> 34:01.520 being like bring back the walleye. Is that, is that needed? Is that worth it? Or should I just let it, 34:01.520 --> 34:05.040 you know, all I decline in an area, then decline and something else will come in. 34:08.320 --> 34:13.760 If the money's there, if the resources are there, yeah, I mean, why not? We've done it with trout, 34:13.840 --> 34:20.880 did it with buskies. I mean, why not? Yeah, you don't, the species, you don't have to really 34:20.880 --> 34:25.760 manage like bass, for example, and bluegills. I mean, they kind of take care of themselves and 34:26.720 --> 34:31.120 yeah, they can get started, they can get over a bundle and things can happen there too, but they 34:31.120 --> 34:36.160 rebalance a faster, faster on every bound and, and they can live in almost anything, you know, 34:36.800 --> 34:40.960 but where walleyes need, you know, better water, cleaner water generally, 34:41.840 --> 34:48.400 perch the same way. Percho walleyes are, they're important to, to the angler. They like to fish 34:48.400 --> 34:55.120 them, they like to keep them, they like to eat them. I think reducing the limit to three 34:57.040 --> 35:03.840 will really go on ways to help that and, and, and places where they, where they've done slot 35:03.840 --> 35:09.440 limits in other states and even in Wisconsin, it's done wonders. In places that I used to fish, 35:10.400 --> 35:15.920 where you could barely catch one over 15 inches, not today with the slot limits, you can catch 35:15.920 --> 35:22.000 lots of big fish and we have to release them. But that's okay. You don't want to eat those anyway. 35:22.000 --> 35:29.520 So, so you just, but you can still keep some 14, 13, 15 inch walleyes if you want. I think 35:29.520 --> 35:38.240 13 is a little small, but because these fish at that size grow pretty fast from the time of 35:38.240 --> 35:44.160 fingerling to the time they reach 15, 18 inches is three years, depending on male or female. So, 35:44.160 --> 35:50.160 so that's pretty good. I mean, for fish to be out plate ready, if you want to use, use that term. 35:51.920 --> 35:58.720 So is it worth a heck yeah. And, you know, what, what the tribes are doing with the stocking is, 35:59.520 --> 36:05.600 obviously it's a great PR thing, but, but it's also an important resource thing because we get 36:05.600 --> 36:15.200 officials lakes too. And I've fished quite a bit on a lactic flambo foliage. I know several 36:15.200 --> 36:20.320 tribal people up there that I've worked with over the years and PR and other stuff years ago. 36:21.440 --> 36:27.280 But those, some of those lakes up there are just loaded with fish. And they don't even, 36:27.840 --> 36:32.560 aren't even aware of the public's not even aware that you can fish those in the summer. 36:33.200 --> 36:38.480 You know, yeah, they're heavily speared, but there's a lot of fish there. When you look, 36:38.480 --> 36:44.480 you know, people look at the spear and they look at the how many fish are taken. So, it took 35,000 36:44.480 --> 36:52.720 fish. Well, that's not, it's a lot because it's, you got the stats there, but you don't have the stats 36:52.720 --> 37:00.080 of the hook and line. And you don't have the stat, you know, which is way, way, way higher. And so, 37:00.080 --> 37:06.560 I think the state has kind of figured out at this point. Yeah, this three fish limit is a good 37:06.560 --> 37:12.240 idea. It's a good thing. Once people are used to that, you know, it only wants a limit. 37:13.760 --> 37:20.880 Yeah, I got my limit. It's way easier to catch three than five or five than 10. So, if you lower 37:20.880 --> 37:25.520 the limit to three, they still got their limits. If you're four or five guys, if you use plenty of 37:25.520 --> 37:31.760 fish, that's enough fish. And that's just walleyes. You catch other fish to eat too. It's just, 37:31.760 --> 37:37.440 just a hat doesn't have to just be walleyes. You know, Canada's been doing this forever. You 37:37.440 --> 37:41.760 know, you can hardly bring any fish back from there. And those lakes are so full of fish, it's crazy. 37:42.640 --> 37:48.080 You got to be afraid to wash your hands in there, you know, to get your fingers bit off. You know, 37:48.080 --> 37:55.200 it's just nuts. And yet people complain about that, unless they, you know, just, it's just wise 37:55.200 --> 38:02.400 use. And it can work. It does work. It's proven that it works. Yeah. 38:02.400 --> 38:07.360 So talk to me a little bit about the importance of relationships and fishing. Obviously, you have 38:07.360 --> 38:13.440 a different dynamic, you know, with your wife being an active part of your career. But I'm sure 38:13.440 --> 38:18.000 you know people who like either leave the wife at home or maybe the wife gets a little upset about 38:18.000 --> 38:26.000 the amount of time spent in the boat. And how does that get managed? Well, like any career, 38:26.000 --> 38:36.560 sometimes I don't, you know, and in people just go their separate ways. But tournament fishing 38:37.440 --> 38:42.880 because the scheduling is tough. I mean, it's really tough. A lot of guys would bring their 38:42.880 --> 38:48.000 wives and my wife loved that because she got the friends with the wives of the fishermen and 38:48.000 --> 38:53.760 and they would do stuff together and so on. And a lot of them still do travel with their 38:53.760 --> 39:01.120 husbands. A few fish with their husbands, like in partner tournaments and so on do well. They do 39:01.120 --> 39:08.160 very well. But it's a strain. I mean, any regards to what you're doing, it's a strain. But you can 39:08.160 --> 39:13.920 have that same strain if you worked at nine to five. You know, you know, the guy comes home from 39:13.920 --> 39:20.400 work and then goes and goes to the bar all night and plays, shoots pool plays dirt. I did all this 39:20.400 --> 39:28.720 stuff. Shoot pool and do this and play baseball and all summer. And you know, that's the same 39:28.720 --> 39:34.480 thing. You're there, but you're not there. You know, I mean physically there, but you're not there. 39:34.480 --> 39:40.080 And because you're not doing anything with your spouse. So yeah, it's so so yeah, you have that 39:40.080 --> 39:48.160 and you do something that the two have to work out like you would with any any other jobs. Yeah. 39:48.160 --> 39:52.720 Is there a way to make those? I mean, is it is we've heard from some couples that say, Oh, well, 39:52.720 --> 39:56.880 I've come along, read a book read a book in the book. Yeah, you can still go on the water. 39:56.880 --> 39:59.840 There's other just well, no, it's his time. And he's my time. 40:02.080 --> 40:08.960 Well, I, yeah, you just got to decide you're not going to be as selfish as you are. And 40:10.080 --> 40:17.120 with your time, and that's hard for a lot of guys and girls. I mean, just not just the guys guys, 40:17.120 --> 40:25.440 but a lot of times it is, we're say, okay, I need, I need to spend some time here with you. And I'm 40:25.440 --> 40:32.480 going to make the time to do that. And I wasn't real good at that early in my career. It was much 40:32.480 --> 40:39.920 better later. Something I had to learn as well, because it can you yeah, you can go this way pretty 40:39.920 --> 40:47.920 fast. If you're your spouse wants attention. And if you're if you're not giving her attention, 40:48.880 --> 40:56.560 she's going to find attention. So nobody wants that. Neither does she. So, so you just got to 40:56.560 --> 41:04.160 not be selfish and make time. Yeah, well, it probably helped you that she was a part of everything, 41:04.160 --> 41:11.920 right? It did. I mean, you know, you think about that, you got kids who's doing everything with 41:11.920 --> 41:16.240 the kids. She is just taking them to all their games. She is school. She is you're you're fishing. 41:18.240 --> 41:26.960 It don't look good. You know, it doesn't look good because it's not. And but you know, you get 41:28.240 --> 41:34.640 manner, man can be driven. And to the point I'm not seeing that and not appreciating that. 41:35.280 --> 41:41.120 And again, you got to be going to come back to reality. And that means you got to sit down 41:42.400 --> 41:48.080 when you're home, you got to be home. You can't be in relax, you know, because that's your next 41:48.080 --> 41:53.040 tournament. You know, you just got back from Lake Erie. And now you're home, but your heads 41:53.040 --> 41:59.040 are relaxed because that's where you're going tomorrow. And that that's precious time together. 41:59.840 --> 42:07.440 You got to block that out and really spend that time with her. And and and that's enough 42:07.440 --> 42:11.840 sometimes. Sometimes that's not enough. But it's better than nothing. And 42:13.680 --> 42:18.000 in months, once it all falls into place and things can happen for you. 42:19.040 --> 42:26.880 In Lake Erie, she gave up she was a real estate broker at a time when that that thing was just 42:26.880 --> 42:37.200 exploding. And she gave that up to travel with me to help me in my career. That was a big sacrifice 42:37.200 --> 42:43.280 for her for both of us because her income was even better than mine at that time. And it would 42:43.280 --> 42:49.520 have been way better. You know, you know, everything should make a lot of money tournament fishing, 42:49.520 --> 43:00.880 you know, but yeah, I mean, millions of dollars. But but she was wanting to give that up, give up 43:00.880 --> 43:09.120 her career to be with me. And she loved it. I mean, we had did a lot. I mean, we went to places 43:09.120 --> 43:16.080 together. We had never ever been able to afford to go to or take the time to go to. Yeah. That 43:16.080 --> 43:25.280 sponsors paid for. And you know, when you get at that level, this is amazing what you can do. And 43:25.280 --> 43:31.680 people you meet and stuff, you can see concerts and all kinds of crazy things. 43:32.560 --> 43:36.880 So talk to me about the Hall of Fame. How did that come to me? 43:39.920 --> 43:47.920 To get into the fishing Hall of Fame is very simple. You first of all, you have to be nominated 43:47.920 --> 43:54.480 by someone. No matter who you are or how great you are, if you're not nominated, you don't get in. 43:54.480 --> 44:04.400 So you have to be nominated by someone. So someone nominated me. And and years ago, 30 years ago, 44:04.400 --> 44:11.120 and I was so busy fishing, I didn't even care. I mean, you want to nominate great. I don't know. 44:11.120 --> 44:21.440 I don't have time to deal with that. So and I didn't get in. And so then several years later, 44:22.000 --> 44:27.200 another guy, Joel Coons, friend of mine. So I'm going to nominate you for a lot of favors. And 44:28.960 --> 44:34.320 I saw enough time. And he goes, well, you don't need to do anything. I'll do it. Okay. So he nominated 44:34.320 --> 44:43.200 me and he put together a resume and stuff. And I didn't get in. Okay. So, but then I got a little 44:43.280 --> 44:53.280 more interested because now I'm in my 70s. And again, I'd be kind of nice. So we get three chances. So 44:55.200 --> 45:04.160 we did a re nomination, or he did. And it was and did a better job. I did a better job of getting 45:04.160 --> 45:09.440 the information that they wanted that he needed that he couldn't get out of me because I was too 45:09.440 --> 45:16.320 busy doing other stuff. And and so you have to, the protocols you have to follow, if you don't 45:16.320 --> 45:22.080 follow them, even no matter what your resume says, if you don't follow their specific protocols, 45:22.080 --> 45:29.280 you can't get in. So I did that. And the vote is always, they have a committee, 45:30.240 --> 45:37.520 a 10 member committee, it has to be unanimous. So which makes it very, very difficult. And 45:37.520 --> 45:51.120 um, in the unanimously, uh, voted me in 2025. So, um, yeah, it was quite quite the deal. I mean, 45:51.120 --> 45:57.600 it's very honoring, really humbling because the people that are in that, I mean, if you look at 45:58.560 --> 46:07.520 what, what am I doing in this, you know, with these guys over here, but um, yeah, it's, uh, 46:07.520 --> 46:14.000 it's a great honor. And, uh, there's a whole lot of people that aren't in that way, better 46:14.000 --> 46:21.360 fishermen. I, I ever was. And, uh, and they should be in, but you have to follow the rules to get 46:21.440 --> 46:28.320 and just like you do with anything. Yeah. So it takes, uh, a lot of due diligence to, uh, 46:29.920 --> 46:35.760 to get it done the proper way to follow proper channels and do it all, all correctly. But obviously 46:35.760 --> 46:42.560 it can be done. So does it feel like a cherry on top to your, your career? Or is it, uh, 46:42.560 --> 46:50.720 Oh sure. Oh sure. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I never, this is why I never took it so seriously, 46:50.720 --> 46:57.120 the other two times because that, well, if I get it again, if I, I never knew that they had 46:57.120 --> 47:05.760 protocols or rules or things you had to follow, uh, to do this. I said, well, here I am. This is me, 47:05.760 --> 47:12.400 you know, I can catch fish and have one tournaments. And I spoke to millions of people and blah, 47:13.360 --> 47:19.440 blah, blah, blah. And, uh, so, okay. No, like, uh, there are today, 47:20.800 --> 47:29.680 efficient or famous, uh, set anew as a whole set of rules, curricula, you have to follow and, 47:29.680 --> 47:35.760 and so much of it is media. Uh, what have you done? Where have you done a promote fishing? 47:36.560 --> 47:42.560 You know, not only with Scots, but in the world. What have you done, uh, to teach people of fish 47:43.280 --> 47:51.440 in your career? Uh, if you just tournament fish, if you just guided a lot of people that are in 47:51.440 --> 47:58.720 Hall of Fame are in because of that, because of those two things. But today, that's not enough. 47:58.720 --> 48:05.760 Today was all the month I made pot. Do you have a podcast? Do you have a show, a TV show? How do 48:05.760 --> 48:12.160 you reach people? And, uh, have you worked with state agencies and restoration projects? And so, 48:12.160 --> 48:18.640 so it's much more deeper now than it used to be. And, and, and it's understandable. I mean, 48:18.640 --> 48:23.920 when you start out, guy starts out, Hey, I'm starting Hall of Fame. Who are you going to put it? Well, 48:23.920 --> 48:30.480 how about Joe? He's a great fisherman. Okay. You know, and, and it's true. I mean, some, 48:30.480 --> 48:35.600 some of the really early inductees in the Hall of Fame are great guides, you know, but they 48:35.600 --> 48:41.280 couldn't do it. Fisherman could do it a day to promote the sport of angling. And, and I think that, 48:42.160 --> 48:49.360 uh, and, and biologists, so more and more they're leaning toward people who are 48:49.920 --> 48:56.000 writers, but not just writers, writers that are fishermen, writers that promote writers that 48:56.000 --> 49:01.520 work with nonprofit organizations with other fisheries organizations, other groups. I mean, 49:01.520 --> 49:08.400 it's just expanded so much manufacturers that have done contributed hundreds of thousands of 49:08.400 --> 49:14.160 dollars at the industry that get kind of stuff. So yeah, it's, it's not, it's hard. It's really 49:14.240 --> 49:19.680 hard to get in. I'm proof of that. You just can't get in because somebody knows you're a great 49:19.680 --> 49:28.480 fisherman anymore. Yeah, the 10 member, the 10 member voting panel are very, very tough. And, 49:29.760 --> 49:34.880 and I think that's a good thing. Of course I can say that because I, because I made it. 49:37.200 --> 49:42.800 But, but yeah, I mean, I mean, do they give you a call? When that, when it happens, 49:42.800 --> 49:48.640 you get a letter? Or how does that work? They, they send you a letter. Believe it or not. Uh, 49:49.200 --> 49:53.120 they make you a, they, they, they make the decision in July. It don't tell you until 49:53.120 --> 50:03.280 October. Yeah. And you get a letter from the president of the Hall of Fame. Congratulations. 50:03.280 --> 50:11.600 You've been chosen for induction for 2025. That's from Evan Brown. And, uh, I'm like, 50:12.960 --> 50:21.920 yeah, yeah, it was, it was a pretty emotional thing. It still is. And, uh, I'm, like I said, 50:21.920 --> 50:28.400 I'm very humbled by it. I, I'm, I'm sorry that I was so flippant about it all those other years 50:28.400 --> 50:36.800 because it really is a great honor. I mean, it's, uh, yeah. Because I wish I would have had it 30 50:36.800 --> 50:41.920 years ago, so I could have brayed about all these years. They had people who wanted to put you in 50:41.920 --> 50:49.840 just before you died, died. It's a thanks a lot. So take advantage of it because you haven't 50:49.840 --> 50:55.600 got that many years to break about it. But your plaque will always be there. Black will always 50:55.600 --> 51:03.440 be there. One of my grandkids will have that someplace someday. Yeah. Um, I think that's all we need 51:03.440 --> 51:09.760 from you. Okay. Um, thank you for giving us time. Oh, thank you. If you don't mind what I would 51:09.760 --> 51:14.400 like to do is put a little wireless mic on you and have you kind of give Ethan and me a little 51:14.400 --> 51:19.600 tour of your office. Sure. Any other, the mementos and photos from around, from around here, if that's 51:19.600 --> 51:32.080 okay. Sure. Yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. If I, if I had a computer in, uh, back in the days of the 51:32.160 --> 51:40.320 manual typewriter, where I started, uh, my freelance writing career, right at this desk and, uh, 51:41.840 --> 51:47.840 thousands, tens of thousands of hours are tick, tick, tick, tick. And, uh, and, uh, you raised tape 51:47.840 --> 51:54.560 and all that good stuff. And, and, uh, now it's still doing so, a little bit of writing, you know, 51:54.560 --> 52:01.440 with the computer, it's so much easier, so it's nicer. And, uh, of course I had to have a place to 52:02.480 --> 52:10.720 hang up all my, basically my life, or at least most of my life accomplishments here. 52:10.720 --> 52:13.040 Well, snapshot, what we got here, one second. That's all right. 52:13.920 --> 52:18.000 So what do we, what do we got on the wall for some of these players? Yeah. Well, these were 52:18.000 --> 52:24.160 mainly, uh, these are all my walleye. Well, they're not all of them, but, uh, it's one of my top 10 52:24.160 --> 52:31.760 finishes in walleye tournament fishing. And, uh, you can see different places around the world, 52:31.760 --> 52:40.800 Minnesota, Michigan, Arkansas, Arkansas, Super Pro, Missouri Super Pro Championship, and, uh, 52:41.840 --> 52:48.160 Port Clinton, Ohio championship up there. I see one up there. Uh, what a bagel. Well, oh, yeah, 52:48.160 --> 52:56.800 one from when the bagel. It's, uh, Mercury National 2,000. That was a while ago. 25 years ago already. 52:57.520 --> 53:06.720 And, uh, one, I don't have a, I don't mount a lot of stuff in my mounted walleye that, uh, 53:08.560 --> 53:16.160 we used for a four, we had, uh, four shooting for Peck, Montana, and, uh, within Fisherman for 53:16.160 --> 53:22.640 their magazine and publication, other, uh, TV show. And, uh, they needed, uh, one of the walleye 53:22.640 --> 53:30.880 over 10 pounds. And so I went out and caught that. It was a 13. Uh, just drove over a hump and saw it 53:30.880 --> 53:37.120 on the, sitting down on the bottom there with a graph, you know, and, uh, dropped the jig of the 53:37.120 --> 53:42.640 middle down to it and reeled it up and started taking pictures. And it's that fish and, uh, 53:43.280 --> 53:47.600 as fish is on the cover of the walleye insider that's that fish over there. So, 53:48.560 --> 53:54.720 yeah, it's been, uh, most, most people when they say they want a 10 pound walleye in your dreams. 53:55.360 --> 54:00.640 Yeah. Well, we went up in an afternoon. We, we, uh, yeah, I, I always had a, 54:01.840 --> 54:08.880 back in those days, I knew how to catch those big fish. And so I got a lot of opportunities 54:08.880 --> 54:18.000 to go with writers and, and, uh, video people that wanted, wanted big fish. And they said, well, 54:18.000 --> 54:21.840 this is a guy to call. They'd call me. I said, well, that's, yeah, where do you want to go? We'll, 54:21.840 --> 54:29.040 let's go get one. And, uh, they're like, how do you do this? You know, but, uh, uh, it's not hard. I 54:29.040 --> 54:34.800 mean, you pick a time of year, spring or fall and when they're most abundant and they're most 54:34.880 --> 54:40.640 aggressive and you just find them and go catch them, catch them. That's the easiest part. You know, 54:40.640 --> 54:48.720 it's, it's, uh, just, you know, locating and, and, uh, you want photo fish. I mean, 54:49.680 --> 54:54.000 they always wanted bigs. I don't know why. I mean, I think a three pound walleye is just as 54:54.000 --> 55:00.960 impressive as a 10 pounder, but, uh, they don't. So, of course I'm a little guy. So when I hold 55:00.960 --> 55:05.680 a 10 pounder, it's, it looks big. You know, it is big, but yeah, I can hold it. I can make a 55:05.680 --> 55:14.960 five pounder look pretty big. So, man, the rest of it's just a couple deer from years ago that I 55:14.960 --> 55:26.400 got and hunting out here. So I think I saw the photo here. Is this you? That's, yeah, that's, uh, 55:27.200 --> 55:35.840 that's me in a professional walleye trail stage long time ago. I don't even know. Is that Elle? 55:38.880 --> 55:48.320 Think it is. Elle Linda was the MC at that time and I got quite a few pictures of Elle. He's got 55:48.320 --> 55:55.120 his weirdest look on his face is whenever I'm talking because, you know, he's like, what are you 55:55.200 --> 56:02.640 saying? The word salads, you know, so you do it when you bomb an internment, you know. So, 56:03.200 --> 56:07.680 yeah, it's pretty, we're talking about that opera and he laughs about that. He says, yeah, 56:07.680 --> 56:11.520 you just stand there and keep talking, but you never said anything. I said, yeah, it's kind of, 56:11.520 --> 56:19.680 what you do when you fail, you know. Yeah, the other things are just crazy stuff. 56:20.240 --> 56:25.920 Uh, do you want to get used to tripod and get some skills? I think we're going to let you 56:25.920 --> 56:36.240 have a shot at it in the other two boys. So, uh, yeah, there's a riot on top water baits too. Oh, 56:36.240 --> 56:42.400 really? That'd be fun. They kind of hooked themselves so that I figured it'd be the easiest for the 56:42.400 --> 56:47.680 kids, you know. Yeah, that was a blast. It's probably the loudest screaming though, right? 56:48.880 --> 56:56.400 Lots of screaming, especially from the little ones. Yeah. Yeah, I started bird watching and there 56:56.400 --> 57:02.400 was a fall migration of warblers. He's naming off the bird's flight order going peep, chirp. 57:04.160 --> 57:07.920 Oh, that's a black birdie in the world. It's a black and white warbler. Oh, there goes a 57:07.920 --> 57:12.640 Cape May warbler. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. You know, there's a blue jade. 57:14.160 --> 57:21.440 I'm buying them. Well, that and other said I would submit to other magazines and they were buying 57:21.440 --> 57:28.080 them. So then all of a sudden I'm writing a column for the local paper, then I'm writing for the 57:28.080 --> 57:33.760 other paper over in Green Lake, another column, and I'm writing constantly. It's all I was doing. 57:33.840 --> 57:43.120 I was writing, but I was selling it and it wasn't hard. So was it mostly birds and fish or what 57:43.120 --> 57:49.520 were the topics? It was mostly birds and fish observation. It wasn't science-based, 57:50.320 --> 57:56.080 but then I got elected to the Conservation Congress. So then I started doing reporting, 57:57.040 --> 58:01.920 which obviously a whole different kind of worms. And that was so easy compared to 58:02.960 --> 58:13.120 creative writing. So I started doing working as a freelancer to cover stories for 58:13.840 --> 58:20.160 I did something journal, Milwaukee Journal, a couple for Madison paper there for that 58:20.160 --> 58:24.240 meeting. Could you cover it and send us a piece and we want 500 words or whatever. 58:24.880 --> 58:32.640 And that's why I started doing that. And those all paid really well and much more than like say 58:32.640 --> 58:40.640 a local column, but the local column and the paper paid every week. So I got an outdoor column, 58:40.640 --> 58:46.000 well then they had me start doing reporting. So then I got paid more and photography. So I got 58:46.080 --> 58:57.440 paid more and went on for, well 78 is when I started, 89 is when I stopped writing all together 58:58.880 --> 59:03.920 because of my turn to my career. Although I didn't read several books, it was less different. 59:04.560 --> 59:15.520 So I wrote the Journal of Walli Pro and wrote a thousand. Well then a new guy comes in and 59:15.520 --> 59:23.200 why are we selling his books? And we shouldn't be selling somebody else's books. We should only 59:23.200 --> 59:32.800 be selling our authors books. That was after the lenders sold. That was Al's idea. So the new 59:32.880 --> 59:39.920 people said, okay, yeah, let's get rid of all of these gerry persons had one, no chad one. So 59:39.920 --> 59:49.600 they called me and said, hey, we got 8000 of these books sitting here. And we're going to phase them 59:49.600 --> 59:56.960 out. Do you want them? This is what you want for me. It's a bucket piece. I go, okay. So I bought 59:56.960 --> 01:00:04.800 them. I said, let's buy them. I'll sell them at sport shows. Well, they were gone in like two years 01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:10.160 because I'm getting out of the writing business and the publishing business. And I've got 01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:18.400 6,000 of these books. Do you want them? And this is how much? She's just three bucks. I go 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:25.920 18 grand. A lot of money. So we talked it over. We talked it over. He lives in Iowa. 01:00:27.120 --> 01:00:32.720 And I said, let's do it. I said, we sold all these other ones. We're selling them. Let's just 01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:41.280 we'll sell them eventually. So we bought the journal book and went out of the Madison show. 01:00:42.240 --> 01:00:48.400 I said, you know, this is a pretty good gig. So they asked, we end up selling that. I had 01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:54.640 the video and then I did the jigging and spoon video and I wrote a fishing with a mission and 01:00:54.640 --> 01:01:01.600 I wrote a ghost road, a cookbook for a buddy of mine and then the local guy, the Buffalo Lake 01:01:01.600 --> 01:01:15.760 fishing. And my very after three, I wrote three stories. You can get them at Amazon 01:01:16.720 --> 01:01:22.880 for $75 to $150 a piece. Boy, I wish I had a kept a couple of cases. 01:01:23.520 --> 01:01:29.840 Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, we try to share a fun had a good way of saying, oh, look at there. 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:34.960 Did you brought it home? Yeah, it's pretty funny. So I only got two of those left. 01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:44.000 And I only have the other seven. Yeah, the obvious is VHS tapes on it's all junk. I mean, 01:01:45.360 --> 01:01:51.680 no, we should buy those. But at that, my little, yeah, what do you do with that stuff? I mean, 01:01:52.240 --> 01:01:56.320 do you think we could borrow this? You can have it. Digitize some of this. Sure. 01:01:56.400 --> 01:02:00.320 These will grab a couple clips out of here. Cool. Yeah, that'd be great. 01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:04.560 Sure, absolutely. Some vintage stuff. Definitely an vintage. 01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:11.440 I haven't got some bait up there somewhere. Seriously? I do. 01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:16.000 Oh, where it is. The engineers would probably be happier with baited than they would be. 01:02:16.000 --> 01:02:20.640 They probably would. Yeah. I don't know where it is, but share somewhere. That's funny. 01:02:20.640 --> 01:02:24.560 Unless I taught, you know, I don't think I threw that out. 01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:27.760 Very cool. 01:02:34.160 --> 01:02:35.200 I don't see it though. 01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:44.400 It should be right up there with the rest of it. Maybe I did throw it because I figured I 01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:55.120 had nobody's ever gonna just look at this. Believe me, I did such a clearing of stuff. 01:02:55.120 --> 01:03:00.000 You wouldn't just bins and piles and piles and piles of promotional crap. 01:03:01.680 --> 01:03:04.240 You know, because this just was of no value. 01:03:04.560 --> 01:03:04.800 No. 01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:09.840 Some of those, like, 01:03:12.080 --> 01:03:14.560 they was the greatest thing on earth for about a year. 01:03:15.600 --> 01:03:20.320 And then I must have got everybody that wanted to buy one because I'm sitting here with a bunch. 01:03:22.720 --> 01:03:33.280 You know, not that I tried to sell them. I don't see that bait up, but I didn't think it. 01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:37.040 That's cool. Yeah. 01:03:37.040 --> 01:03:40.880 Sorry, I think visually. No, but then you come to a watch like full. 01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:42.880 Yeah, we just feel like it's a pop to get into it. 01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:44.640 Just sure you're not doing your first story again. 01:03:47.200 --> 01:03:49.840 Do you have a big Paul McCartney fan? Oh, yeah. 01:03:51.120 --> 01:03:54.480 I mean, the song Youngboy is incredible. Oh, yeah? Yeah. 01:03:55.360 --> 01:03:57.760 Yeah, I heard it. I highly recommend what some of his solo work. 01:03:58.640 --> 01:04:06.080 I actually made in my, like I said, in our crazy profession, 01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:21.760 I ran into this guy, Ken Mansfield. He was, he was a manager of U.S. manager for Apple Records. 01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:22.240 Oh, wow. 01:04:23.200 --> 01:04:31.120 For the Beatles. And we became friends in a bizarre twist of fate. 01:04:32.720 --> 01:04:37.360 He wanted to hire me to be, he was a speaker, a motivational speaker. 01:04:38.400 --> 01:04:40.960 And he said, I make the hire of you to be my manager. 01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:49.360 And I almost did it. That was in 2009, right after I got out of tournament fishing. 01:04:50.160 --> 01:04:54.880 And Shari just looked at me. She goes, what's wrong with you? 01:04:59.040 --> 01:05:02.320 She says, what does that mean? I go, I don't have to fly to LA and 01:05:05.280 --> 01:05:13.280 let's other places, a couple of times a week in Nashville or she like, no, 01:05:14.240 --> 01:05:18.800 I'm not doing it. She's, no, it's really not. She's crazy. 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:22.400 I said, it'd be so cool. She says, no. 01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:39.600 My Lindy commercial. That was like from 80 something. 01:05:40.240 --> 01:05:42.320 Uh, good grief. 01:05:43.680 --> 01:05:46.240 What's it like revisiting all this up here? 01:05:48.720 --> 01:05:54.960 It's like a different person. You know, it's like it was a different person. 01:05:57.440 --> 01:05:59.040 Did that guy know what was coming to him? 01:05:59.680 --> 01:06:09.680 I cannot believe I would have thrown that because I, because I would have thought, 01:06:09.680 --> 01:06:15.440 ask somebody some, no, I'm not seeing it. 01:06:22.080 --> 01:06:24.960 By your webs up here. So last time I'd been up there. 01:06:25.840 --> 01:06:31.040 Oh, sorry guys. What's this little short one here, baby? 01:06:35.680 --> 01:06:37.520 Beta would have been a shorter box. 01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:41.360 Okay. 01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:45.680 No, it's not that, I'm weedling it. 01:06:54.960 --> 01:07:02.880 Yeah, it's a VHS too. 01:07:02.880 --> 01:07:09.680 Oh yeah. This, um, this has my promotional, 01:07:13.520 --> 01:07:17.120 like my, my, what they would play before I would speak. 01:07:17.120 --> 01:07:17.680 Oh really? 01:07:17.680 --> 01:07:20.960 Yeah, it's where it shows. They pop and then it would show me, 01:07:20.960 --> 01:07:23.120 that's a monster fish and a lot of crap. 01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:27.360 See, that's where I had on beta too. 01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:32.080 Cause, cause back then you had to. Yeah, they're both. 01:07:35.120 --> 01:07:38.560 You want that at all or? Sure. I mean, I wouldn't say no. 01:07:38.560 --> 01:07:39.840 Something to look at. Yeah. 01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:48.160 Yeah, the betas were much shorter than the VHS. 01:07:48.800 --> 01:07:53.680 So we're, we're, we're good. I'm sure this will work. 01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:57.440 Yeah, cause the beta was this would have been the same. 01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:01.280 Same footage. Pretty easy. 01:08:09.760 --> 01:08:14.800 So this, uh, this Ken guy, we meet, we meet him and his wife and go ahead. 01:08:15.360 --> 01:08:18.560 When those guys were the outlaws, that's who managed them. 01:08:19.200 --> 01:08:24.320 And then, uh, Jesse Colter, who was William Jennings' wife, 01:08:25.280 --> 01:08:30.560 and then I went in a Grammy and he was, and he got a Grammy because he was her 01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:34.160 man, sort of another career young enough to do it. 01:08:35.120 --> 01:08:40.560 So why was he looking to you to manage as opposed to like someone who had a lot of 01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:43.040 managing experience? Yeah, that's what I said to him. 01:08:43.040 --> 01:08:45.520 He says, cause I don't want, he says, I don't have the time to do it. 01:08:45.520 --> 01:08:47.520 He says, I'm running around speaking all the time. 01:08:48.080 --> 01:08:52.160 He says, I need somebody to book my flights, book my, all my stuff. 01:08:52.160 --> 01:08:54.400 And he was trying to do it himself. 01:08:54.400 --> 01:08:58.240 And he was undergoing having cancer treatments and all kinds of stuff going on. 01:08:58.240 --> 01:09:02.080 So he says, you know how to do this, right? I go, yeah. 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:05.840 Yeah. I said, that's what I used to do. 01:09:06.720 --> 01:09:11.920 If I had a seminar in, in New York, I would try to book something. 01:09:13.280 --> 01:09:18.640 Yeah, I shouldn't say that for quite a bit, but when it was my own deal, I would drive. 01:09:19.200 --> 01:09:22.960 When it was, when it was a corporate deal, they would always pay for the flight. 01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:25.520 So, yeah, of course. Yeah. 01:09:26.640 --> 01:09:30.080 Yeah. Some of that was charter. So that was nice. 01:09:30.080 --> 01:09:32.320 Just go there and jump in the plane and fly away. 01:09:33.360 --> 01:09:37.600 That Miami show, Reno, Dallas. 01:09:37.840 --> 01:09:42.640 And so Miami would still want someone to come in and talk about why. 01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:46.880 No, but the sponsor would want you there to sell boats. 01:09:47.520 --> 01:09:50.400 Yeah. Yeah. So you'd go down and do that. 01:09:51.280 --> 01:09:56.160 And, you know, it was, they were opening a new bus, south sponsor by Bass Pro. 01:09:56.160 --> 01:10:02.320 So, you know. So at that point, when you get to that level, 01:10:02.400 --> 01:10:10.640 they sponsor electrical. So it flighted Dallas, landed Dallas, Fort Worth, 01:10:11.440 --> 01:10:19.280 and this Bass Pro. So you get there and there's a limo driver with your name. 01:10:19.280 --> 01:10:25.600 And you get down there and you jump in, they drive you right straight to the show. 01:10:26.400 --> 01:10:31.840 You know, you get there, you walk in, big celebrity and all that crap. 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:38.160 And sit down and sign autographs. And, you know, they're going, they know me because 01:10:38.160 --> 01:10:43.200 they have no idea, but they did. And it's like, oh man, I feel bad for you. 01:10:43.200 --> 01:10:47.280 You know, you'll be down here in Bass Country in Palobani. 01:10:47.280 --> 01:10:52.880 They bring you a stack of your picture of a sign with your stats on it. 01:10:52.880 --> 01:10:53.840 So we already stacked. 01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:56.480 And so that's what you're always well-green, Grantson. 01:10:57.440 --> 01:11:05.280 Well, my mom's 96. She's my biggest fan, but my mom is my second biggest fan. 01:11:06.320 --> 01:11:11.680 Because that was her dad and her husband, my dad, who taught me how to fish. 01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:18.080 So she goes to these events I speak at and she just stands up and birds it right out. 01:11:18.080 --> 01:11:30.160 Yeah, she's pretty proud. So that always makes, it's nice to have parents. 01:11:30.160 --> 01:11:34.880 It's probably, you know, and I'm glad she's still around. And she's doing great. 01:11:37.520 --> 01:11:43.280 Yeah, lives alone. That's all her own stuff. Doesn't bother at all. 01:11:43.440 --> 01:11:48.880 Goes down by the river, down that river bay, down the stuff. 01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:57.360 Talk for an hour or two. He's big on putting pieces in. I'm big on questions. 01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:05.520 That is so foreign to the frenetic life I used to live. They just sit there and put a puzzle 01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:13.520 together. But I have to do it. So when she gets it out, I have to do it. 01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:18.320 Yes, to do it. And I have to get it done as soon as possible. So still for that, I can still 01:12:19.360 --> 01:12:26.480 still competitive. Yes, he is that way. And we watched Jeopardy. And every day at 4.30, 01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:33.840 and we sit together holding hands and we watched Jeopardy. And he answers all the questions. 01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:40.000 I get one or two in an hour. She's like, how do you know that? And why do you know that? 01:12:40.800 --> 01:12:47.520 Some of them are so off the grid. I don't know. But it's just, I don't know, I retain information. 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:54.800 Well, he's not very used to it, at least. And you know, that story, I've forgotten more about 01:12:54.800 --> 01:12:58.960 fishing. I think it's going on a fishing talk. I can, I remember everything. 01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:06.400 And you add a few things to it to make it. That I don't. It's more fun. 01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:18.560 This is all about detail. And yeah, he's just, you can't, nope, he can't be like I can only, 01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:26.640 you know, I mean, just one like I can only don't try to be like him. He's nuts. And, but he's also, 01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:33.360 he's either the top of the mouth or the bottom of the cliff and on, you can't be that either. 01:13:35.680 --> 01:13:43.280 So, and I like Mike. Mike has Mike's gotten older, he's smelling a little bit, but, and a lot of that was 01:13:43.280 --> 01:13:50.560 stick. I mean, that's not the real Mike. I can only seriously, a lot of that was just part of the 01:13:50.560 --> 01:13:57.600 show, but that's okay. You know, that's, that made him a career. You know, they don't, 01:13:58.400 --> 01:14:03.680 media don't like boring people. You know, you have, you know, they want people that person.