Alright, you can talk to me, don't worry about all of this.
Yeah, sure, it has been short.
So, I guess, let's go back to the beginning.
You were born in Montello, right?
Yes.
Yep.
And so, did you grow up fishing?
Was fishing something passed down to you?
Yeah, it sure was.
My dad liked to fish, and that's how I ended up in Montello, because he was from Kenosha,
and his parents and his grandfather would come up here fishing as tourists, back in the
1920s and 30s.
So, he met my mom in Montello, she wasn't as his fish.
She was 13, and they ended up eventually falling in love, getting married, and then they moved.
He moved to Montello after World War II, and so my mom was still there.
Same house on the river, yeah, she's 96, so yeah, it's kind of in my blood.
So how did she end up, did she work at a resort, or helped out on the boat, or she
just met him, and he took her off?
Yeah, well, her dad owned a bait.
He was locked tender at the locks of the dam there, and then she would always be down
there helping him, and cleaning his rental boats, and bailing water out of them, because
they're wooden and leaped, and that's how people shorefished, and that's how she met
my dad.
So, she would run around that fish, not just for him, but for other people too.
Yeah, and I grew up there helping my grandfather then, her dad doing the same stuff.
Now, was walleye the big thing back then?
Well, walleyes were a big thing, but it was a big catfish river, it was a pox river, so
a lot of catfish, croppies, some bass, smallmouth bass especially, and of course, a good number
of walleyes that would come out of Lake Puckaway, Lake Winnebago system, yeah.
So, growing up for you was fishing a diversion, or was it like a passion?
Oh, it was a passion.
Yeah, I mean, it was every day.
It was 3 a.m., and before school, it was all weekend, it was all summer.
Yeah.
So, then, you were a ton before that, you know, you kind of came into your early life
and trying to find a job, trying to start a family, and, you know, what was fishing
at that point?
Was that like where you wanted to get to?
Yeah, you know, after high school, I went to college, all that kind of stuff, and got
drafted, Vietnam War thing going on, and came back, and I worked at a resort when I came
back.
Jobs were hard to find anyways, so I thought, well, if I'm going to work for that same amount
of money, I'll work at a resort, and then I became a fishing guide there.
So, I really, that helped a lot, and I really enjoyed that, getting people on fish and
teaching them how to fish, and worked other jobs, did my freelance writing, started to
do that.
The freelance writing was really the big stepping stone, because I got to meet people in the
fishing industry, manufacturers, manufacturers, representatives, that kind of thing, and, of
course, pro fishermen.
Excuse me.
What are they about, sorry about that.
And, you know, people in the industry, manufacturers, representatives, pro fishermen, and so on,
and other writers, and resort owners, so, just kind of,
like I said, like I said, the other day, I'm quite cold, and not coughed all day, and
didn't cough the whole time we were talking earlier, no worries.
Ooh, yeah.
You can keep a glass, and kind of buy you if you want.
You're going to, well, I want a cup.
Yeah, perfect.
Where's my fishing hall of feet?
Oh, yeah, that'll help.
I hope you want me to do that over here.
No, we'll just keep going from there.
So you were kind of manufacturing your own path, in a way.
Yeah, yeah, kind of, I loved freelance writing.
And I got fortunate enough to be able to write for all the big three magazines, outdoor
life field and street sports field, and then just little things, not a lot, but in those
days it paid very well, and then if you had photographs as well.
So I was finally making a decent living, and that, but I always wanted to be not interviewing
tournament anglers, I wanted to be interviewing, I wanted to be the angler, right?
And so I started fishing bass tournaments, did well, I won the state championship, I won
your, and then met a guy who fished the walleye circuit, and he said, hey, how would you
like to fish the walleye circuit?
And I said, I can't afford it, and he said, well, I got a board, I got this, I got that,
was put the cost.
And so I paired up with him.
We did really well, won three tournaments, the very first year, sponsorships came, and
bam, then it really took off after that.
What, what, Ron, what time was that?
That was 1988-89.
So you'd pick your juice, and that was 15, you wasn't immediate, right?
Oh no, sure wasn't, and I didn't know if it would ever happen, I didn't expect it to.
There was an opportunity.
I did seize the opportunity, and I set a goal, a five-year goal, and I thought, if I don't
make these goals, in five years, I'll get out, made them in one year.
So then you couldn't get out, because it was too fun, and it paid well, so yeah.
So how does a professional walleye fisherman make a living?
Is it mostly from sponsorships, or is it from the tournament winnings, or how does that
happen?
Yeah, at first it's a combination.
Usually when you start out, you don't have sponsorships, or they're very small, but it
all helps.
So then winnings really help.
You gain notoriety, you get speaking engagements, you have to be willing to do them, and that
means traveling all over the United States, all the way along at sport shows, and giving
seminars on walleye fishing.
I liked doing that anyway, so whatever an opportunity was there, I would take it.
And it's interesting, because there again, they paid a lot for speakers.
My professional walleye angers were rare, prior to the mid-80s, the only walleye pros
were outdoor writers who fished with good walleye guides, so they knew how to do it, and they
would come into the shows and talk about it.
There was no competitive walleye angling, well, once that started, and you proved yourself
a winner, then you could get the stage time to go and talk about your winning tactics
and things you do, and how you learn, and how to tweak things, and just how to be a
better angler.
So for some of the people that would show up to this, were they hoping to be competitive
anglers, or these just, your average fishermen who just wanted to get a little better, and
catch the wall?
Usually, most of the time it's guys that they want to win, you talk to them, they compete
a lot of stuff, they race it all, cars, they do all that dirt bikes, they're always racing,
but yeah, they're competitors, so that they do it for the competition, they want to win,
some want to do it to make a living, some just do it because they enjoy the competition,
but they hit maybe owner-owned business, I have some other jabbing away from, self-employed,
whatever, they're never looking to become a full-time professional, they don't want
to speak at shows in the winter, they want to go to Florida in fish oil winter, get it
under yachts, so, which is good, because if everybody wanted to do that, then it waters
down the whole field, so there's always a handful, and it's always the same guys, year
after year after year, doing these circuits, and we would, a handful of us would speak
and take a regular route, and then actually we have a different route, and third year
another route, and then they're ready for you again, two or three years later, and some
sports shows would have you every year.
So, how much of what percentage of your life was actual tournaments versus talking about
tournaments?
Yeah, well, the tournaments would run from mid-March to October, and then all the time
after that, you're not tournament fishing, if that's your profession, you've got to make
money in the winter, and of course, that's most of it, because March, October, it's about
half a year, so your other half is speaking engagements, period, or guiding, a lot of
guys still guided in between, and guided late into fall and early spring, I quit guiding
three years into it, I could just couldn't keep doing it, and mainly because I was fishing
three circuits, you know, once, while I tournament circuits proved successful, then all these
other circuits started popping up, bigger money, you know, getting sponsorships from
elsewhere and longer travel, you weren't just fishing midwest anymore, but if you, that
was your profession, that's what you did, I mean, you just went where the tournaments
were, and the paybacks were way better, sponsors liked it, so that, the more you did, the
more you got paid to do it, that's kind of how it works, and then the rest of the time
of the year, you're promoting sponsors during your seminars, you know, so for you, did you
get a chance to come back to Wisconsin and fish here, or was that kind of lost to you
for a time?
Oh, it's really lost, the only time I fished in Wisconsin was when it was a tournament
here, we would come, I was, like I said, fishing two or three circuits, one time three,
I did 19 tournaments that year, not counting the championships, so my wife and I, she would
travel with me and help me out, she was kind of my jack of all trades, and she would take
care of all the side distractions that I didn't want to have to do, I wanted to focus on fishing,
so she would take care of all that, and so that, yeah, when I came home, all I did was
get the boat ready for the next tournaments, I didn't even have time to fish here, but
at the tournament was I won a bag, if it was in Green Bay, Pete and Wells Floyd, kind of
the most popular place for walleye tournaments, yeah, then I fished.
So this, our documentary is talking about walleye in Wisconsin as a significant cultural
species, also connected to economy and tourism and tournaments, and so for you, did walleye
still hold a special place, or once it became like a livelihood, did it kind of shift?
That's a great question, walleye, because I grew up fishing walleyes in the Fox River,
they were like the golden boy of the fishery, you know what I mean, everybody, the elusive
walleye walleye, that's all we ever read about or heard about, and how hard they were to catch,
and they were never hard for me to catch, I never bought that, I never thought, why do
people keep saying that, because it's not true, but for a lot of people they can be,
they're a special fish, and yes, when I would come home, we have a walleye run here in March,
up the Fox River, and I would always fish that, and then there would always be a smaller run
on the fall, and I would fish that, and then I'd do some walleye fishing on Big Green Lake,
and do some, because I guided for walleye server, so Lake Puckaway, same way, I quit fishing
Wisconsin River, because I just didn't need to go there, because I could catch them elsewhere,
fishing all over the US made me a better angler here, but fishing here made me a way better
angler elsewhere, and I think that's why the Wisconsin tournament anglers, especially,
were so good under professional walleye trail, I mean we just outshined everybody,
almost everybody, just because of our knowledge of fishing on this Winnebago system, a tough system,
but once you've got to figure it out, man, it's so good, you know.
So that's the key, once you, if you can fish them here, you can do it anywhere.
Yeah, I believe that, and well, I proved it, and so have several other anglers, so yeah.
So you have the ultimate home field test, the home field advantage thing.
Absolutely, and you know, even yet, when I catch a walleye today, I mean, I just look at that,
I just marvel at that fish, it's just a very special fish, and I never, no, I never took it
for granted, I mean, I could catch the replacement going and catch 100 walleyes a day, you know,
there's fish that are using North America that good, and even in a half a day sometimes,
it's so plentiful, but you never got tired of it, you never got tired of going the next day
and catching some more fish, and catching those walleyes, and it didn't matter if they were 10
pounds or 10 inches, you know, it's just not for me anyway, for some people maybe, but not for me,
it's just a special fish. So what's it like to have a walleye on? Is it the anticipation for
you of like when they're about to, or setting the hook, or is it getting them in the boat,
what are the different moments in that action? Yeah, I'm a caster, so I'm casting baits out,
retrieving, I mean, I catch, obviously, I have to learn how to catch walleyes in every method
to be professional, you can't just use one thing, or you get a lot of zeros, you know, so I had to
learn these other methods, but my favorite is casting, it's usually casting a jig,
pitching it out, working a lot on the bottom, and when you feel that it's just something special,
it's just like that, you know right away what it is, and I know a lot of fish bites, small
mop bite like that, and a large mop bite, and a pike bite, but you can, if you're caught enough
and dead enough, you can tell, and just just just feeling that, I mean, it's exciting, I mean,
the most exciting thing for me in fishing is the bite, it was the same way musky fishing,
bass fishing, top water, that's the most exciting thing, actually finding catching a fish is no big,
you know, that's all part of the stick, but feeling that bite is so cool, this is, it says,
since such a rush, you know, and it's in walleyes way more subtle than those other fish, but
maybe that's what makes it so much better, and because they're in the perch family, perch bite
the same way, even more subtle, so I love the fish perch with jigs the same way, it's just a
few little tap, and yeah, that's the deal, it's like what's the best part about bobber fishing,
when the bobber goes down, I mean, the same thing, and I still get excited about that when
I fish with bobbers, so, and yeah, so I mean, could you have been as successful as you have been
without still enjoying every part of it? No, I don't think so, I don't think so, I mean, yeah,
it's a job, I never, I don't know, every fish I caught, even if it wasn't a keeper, you know,
even if it wasn't a money fish, it was just, it was just wow, you know, it was just that wow
factor every time, it wasn't like that, that, you know, I don't care and just throw it, you know,
I would never do that, just drop over the side and let them go, because that fish is special, I mean,
you know, that's 10 years from now, he's that 10 pounder, you know. So, why didn't you go into
small boat, is that, you know, bass tournaments are what a lot of people, most average non-fishermen,
they've heard of big bass tournaments, you see, right, oh yeah, but it seems like that's where
the money would be, so why? That's totally where the money is, and still is, and
but the money started to come into the walleye thing in the in the late 1980s, and I thought,
well, this isn't bass, and I would, and I always wanted to be a bass guy, I mean, you know, those
guys, they had the TV shows, and a lot of those guys actually are friends of mine today, because
we're all in the industry, but, and they would always tease me, that was fishing those walleyes,
and they were always, you're never going to make any money doing that, why don't you get into the
bass, and, but that's an expensive deal, I mean, you just, you just, yeah, and just to get through
all the qualifying and stuff to, to do it, is brutal, but there are guys that, they're still
doing it, these young guys today are just amazing how they've come in, and we've got some in our
own state here that have done great, you know, fishing all over the country for bass, had the
walleye thing not panned out, say the money was never there, I couldn't tell you if I would have
gotten into bass or not, I may have probably just kept freelancing, writing, guiding, you know, doing
both, because it was something I liked, and it was easy, and it was here, and, you know, it didn't
have a lot of expenses, turn like fishing is expensive, I mean, even in the, even in the 90s,
you're dropping 25 to 35,000 a year, and that was a lot of money back then, if you didn't have
the sponsors, was coming out of your own pocket, you couldn't sustain that if you weren't good,
you know, if you just showed up and fished, so you really had to perform, it's a performance
sport, yeah. Well, you're talking about that before, but how much of it is mental,
comparing it, I mean, it is interesting that you've heard people talk about pro athletes,
and there's a lot more people that have the same physical qualifications, but they may not have
the mental makeup. Well, yeah, you see that all the time, I mean, if you're watching a lot of
sports, you see that in an athlete, and you see it in so many guys were Heisman Trophy winners,
they had the physical skill, but they didn't have what we call it, they didn't have it,
they just couldn't make it work with a team. Now, granted fishing is not a team sport,
well, it can be, but most of the time it's not, so it's individual, it's you against the fish,
you against yourself, and you can't control anything anybody else is doing,
you just have to focus on what you're doing. So the longer you stay in the game mentally,
the better chance you have, and, but you still gotta have the skills, you just can't say, well,
I'm a Jake Fisherman, I hate trolling, period, that's me, okay, I'm a Jake Fisherman, I hate
trolling, it was me in 1988. By 1995, I had, I look, I gotta learn how to do this, because we're
on more and more lakes, we're a troll, I gotta learn how to fish bottom bounces and spinner rigs,
I gotta learn how to fish slip bobber rigs, and have the patience to do it, which is a whole
mental game, and, and I learned, I learned all those things, I want tournaments doing all those
things, and had I not been versatile, I would have maybe won one or two tournaments,
doing it the way I like, and that don't pay the bills, yeah, I mean, if you're independently wealthy,
you don't care fine, do your stick, but, but, but then what you're gonna do, you know, I, if I'm
going to a sports show and, and do a seminar, and somebody, the audience says, how do you work
planer boards, how do you, how much line do you set back on, on a floating bait, floating
rapel up, for example, with a small lip, you know, how deep does it go about it, you got to answer
those questions, if you want to continue to, to excel in the sport, you got to know this stuff,
and, and, and a lot of guys didn't want to learn it, they said, I don't like doing that, something
I can learn it, well, so you, you guided for quite a few years before that, what's the experience
like as a guide, well, I guess what's the, the, these are different roles of how people see a
guide, like I can, I'll take you there and show you versus I'll give you an experience.
Yeah, um, guide, I had a real love hate relationship with a guy, because you book a guide trip,
they want to go, and they don't care if the wind's blowing, if it's raining, snowing,
and you don't want to go, you would beat up all day of the day before,
with guiding, you have an eight hour day, in the boat, with, with two clients, okay,
so you get up at four a.m., get everything ready, get it in, go and get the bait, get the tackle,
meet, meet them at the ramp, they're all fired up, okay, they've had, they've had breakfast,
you have, and you grab some coffee, a quick trip or whatever, you know, and it did a horrible
doughnut, and, and as you breakfast, so they're, they're fired up, they get out there, they fish
your fish all day, uh, fish may not be doing so well, cold front, whatever, and so you have to make
them feel like they're having a good time, having a good experience, uh, you have to have a whole
lifetime of stories to tell, to share with them, uh, people in common that you might know
that you can tell stories about, and it's, it's all way more, just sitting there like a bump on
a log all day in the boat, not talking, and moving around the places, you gotta know your lake,
you gotta know the techniques, you gotta be willing to say, look guys, well, always aren't
gonna bite, I mean this cold front's so bad, let's go, you want to catch some, let's go fish
northerners or something, yeah, well it's better or nothing, then you go out and you catch
20 northerners and a couple great big giant ones, they had a great day, they didn't get their
walleyes, but they still had a great day, then there's no fish days, I guaranteed fish, so
if I had a no fish day with client clients, I would say, look, it's guaranteed, come back,
we'll do this again, I says it's not gonna happen twice, so, and uh, some would take me up on it,
some wouldn't, you know, and it always felt bad, I always felt like, you know, I let them down,
you know, uh, as a guide, and yeah, it's, it's a hard job, and you drop them off, okay,
then they got fish, they want you to help them clean them, so you help clean the fish,
and they want to have lunch supper with you, they want to buy a supper, and then maybe sit around
and have a few beverages, and you get home at 10 o'clock at night, and you got charged batteries,
you got to get beat for the next day, you got to get everything all cleaned up because you got
two new people the next day, I don't know how these guys do it, I mean, I did it, and it was hard,
and I know guys that do it, and they just love it, every day they go, here we go, let's go get
some fish, I'm like, and they won't even get the fish, like I didn't fish, I let them fish,
I only fish to show them how to, you know, how to do it, but so then you're not even fishing,
so that man, it's wicked, so that's why you did it when you had to pay some bills, tournament
fish was way more fun, believe me, although a guy didn't even meet so many cool people, and
you get repeat customers like crazy, you know. But there's got to be a joy that comes from
giving them an experience, when they have those. Oh, for sure, my favorite was guiding, you know,
dad and his son, or dad and his daughter, the kids getting the fish, I mean, that,
those were special, I tried to do more of that than adults. I'm sure you get a lot of guys that
think they know a lot, and they're just, they're there to learn, you know, where's the good spot,
how to pay the next time, right? Yeah, one of the toughest is you get them on good fish,
you go on the next day and they're there with their buddies and their boats, you can't even
get there and fishing with your clients, that happens to, but you know, it's part of the deal.
So, did you also eat well, I mean, was that ever? Oh, heck yeah. Yeah, still do. Yeah,
every chance I get, I fish walleyes a little now, I don't fish them a lot.
You know, there's just my wife and I and, you know, one 18 inch walleyes of meal. I don't need five,
you know, I don't need three. So, you know, just get one for meal, next time she wants
walleye, go get another one. It's kind of like the permanent freezer, right? It's always stocked.
Yeah, you get them fresh, you know, yeah. But what is it about walleye eating them that's
different than other fish? Yeah, they're, they're flaky. I mean, they're, they're more solid.
I really think actually Northern Pike is just as good, you know, a lot of people don't think so.
I do, you know, I eat both, you know, still do. Let's do it. And there's this whole stigma around
the walleye, you know, the price of them in a restaurant, for example, some people think,
you know, if I'm paying 20 bucks for a meal of walleyes, it must really taste good. Oh, yeah,
that's delicious. And they take this in here, you know. Yeah. Well, that's interesting,
there is a lot of mystique around walleye in Wisconsin. What's the history of that? Where did all
that, how did that, that culture get built up around this one fish? Well, I think the guides,
I think the guides perpetrate a lot of that mainly because they can be tough to catch
for the average fisherman. They don't act all the time, like they're not as predictable as other
fish for one thing. They move, they don't, they have shorter feeding periods and a lot of fish.
They're very good at feeding. So they catch, you know, their bait fish pretty quick and then
they shut down. And so I think that, the fact that they're more difficult to find, to catch,
has made, has created this whole mystique about walleye fishing. And they're always,
not always, but they're often in deep water and shallow water fish are always easier to catch.
And no matter what the species, so deeper water fish are tougher, you know, more line,
more mistakes, more snags, more things that, that you have less control over that the more
line you have out the less control you have always. And, and so, yeah, we're in a bagel being shallow,
puck away, box, remember being shallow, easy, easy peasy. So I never looked at them as being
hard to catch. So I got in a tournament trail and had to fish deep water fish. Wait a minute,
I've never done this, you know, so you have, I shouldn't say never, but you have to learn
the whole, the way they act differently in different bodies of water too, you know, so.
But, yeah, I mean, it seems like it's the combination of they're, they, they're not easy,
they don't jump in the boat. And then the value of what they're like on the plate,
like those two things together. Sure. And not, and they're a nocturnal species. So a lot of times,
they've come up to feed shallow at night. And that's when you catch them like the last half hour before
dark. So it's like a crazy half hour fishing and then nothing. Okay, so, so a lot of people don't
get that opportunity or early morning. So there's that. But of course, in professional fishing,
we didn't fish at night. We fished in daytime. So we had to learn how to adjust. How do we get
these fish to bite in the daytime? Where are they? How do we make them bite? And I don't know that
you could make them bite. You know, but you can at times trigger some fish with certain
tricks and tweaks and stuff, you do it presentation, which gets us into a whole another four hour
summer on how to present the bait properly to the mood of the fish. Yeah. So when it, when you look
back at the, the history of, like you said, this place was up north for a lot of. Yes. And then
there's up north today, which is Hayward. Yeah. How much of that mystique plays into up north,
like it had to be a tribal destination for a lot. It's kind of that too. Yeah. We're in the same way
with Northern Pike, you know, it's kind of like a, you know, it's a Canadian that whole Canadian
walleye norther. That's all they ever talk about up there. Come up to Canada and catch all these
fish. Well, we have these fish. And so, uh, and we have these fish all the way into Illinois.
So in Michigan, Minnesota. So why, why do I have to go there? But, uh, uh, so yeah, people
want it. They want to catch those fish. They think big fish. Oh, you get the big fish, you know,
the big predator fish is always part of that. Cause, cause they, they do grow big.
People don't eat a lot of, you know, people never ate a lot of bass in Wisconsin.
Uh, they did, when I was a kid for subsistence, a lot of, a lot of the neighbors that ate bass
all the time. Uh, but other people would, well, we don't eat bass. Well, they didn't have to,
they had walleyes, they had norther and say it perts, bluegills, uh, like we, and we still do
today when they can, they don't have to eat these other fish, but there's nothing wrong with those
fish. And you just don't want to eat them in July, you know, but the rest of the year when the
water's cool or cold, they're fine. You know, but because of the abundance of these good eating
fish, so to speak, but then those same people ate ball heads and catfish and, and they're,
they're no great meal, but they're not horrible either. So yeah, you need a matter of fish, you know.
So one of the, the things that we're looking at is how much attention the state and like the
DNR or the universities and their researchers or Glyphwick or the tribes and they're all the
stocking and the research and the studies and there's a lot of attention on one species. Yeah.
Is it warranted for that one species to have so much money sunk into these? And in a lot of places,
populations are declining due to a number of different factors and there's so much effort
being like bring back the walleye. Is that, is that needed? Is that worth it? Or should I just let it,
you know, all I decline in an area, then decline and something else will come in.
If the money's there, if the resources are there, yeah, I mean, why not? We've done it with trout,
did it with buskies. I mean, why not? Yeah, you don't, the species, you don't have to really
manage like bass, for example, and bluegills. I mean, they kind of take care of themselves and
yeah, they can get started, they can get over a bundle and things can happen there too, but they
rebalance a faster, faster on every bound and, and they can live in almost anything, you know,
but where walleyes need, you know, better water, cleaner water generally,
perch the same way. Percho walleyes are, they're important to, to the angler. They like to fish
them, they like to keep them, they like to eat them. I think reducing the limit to three
will really go on ways to help that and, and, and places where they, where they've done slot
limits in other states and even in Wisconsin, it's done wonders. In places that I used to fish,
where you could barely catch one over 15 inches, not today with the slot limits, you can catch
lots of big fish and we have to release them. But that's okay. You don't want to eat those anyway.
So, so you just, but you can still keep some 14, 13, 15 inch walleyes if you want. I think
13 is a little small, but because these fish at that size grow pretty fast from the time of
fingerling to the time they reach 15, 18 inches is three years, depending on male or female. So,
so that's pretty good. I mean, for fish to be out plate ready, if you want to use, use that term.
So is it worth a heck yeah. And, you know, what, what the tribes are doing with the stocking is,
obviously it's a great PR thing, but, but it's also an important resource thing because we get
officials lakes too. And I've fished quite a bit on a lactic flambo foliage. I know several
tribal people up there that I've worked with over the years and PR and other stuff years ago.
But those, some of those lakes up there are just loaded with fish. And they don't even,
aren't even aware of the public's not even aware that you can fish those in the summer.
You know, yeah, they're heavily speared, but there's a lot of fish there. When you look,
you know, people look at the spear and they look at the how many fish are taken. So, it took 35,000
fish. Well, that's not, it's a lot because it's, you got the stats there, but you don't have the stats
of the hook and line. And you don't have the stat, you know, which is way, way, way higher. And so,
I think the state has kind of figured out at this point. Yeah, this three fish limit is a good
idea. It's a good thing. Once people are used to that, you know, it only wants a limit.
Yeah, I got my limit. It's way easier to catch three than five or five than 10. So, if you lower
the limit to three, they still got their limits. If you're four or five guys, if you use plenty of
fish, that's enough fish. And that's just walleyes. You catch other fish to eat too. It's just,
just a hat doesn't have to just be walleyes. You know, Canada's been doing this forever. You
know, you can hardly bring any fish back from there. And those lakes are so full of fish, it's crazy.
You got to be afraid to wash your hands in there, you know, to get your fingers bit off. You know,
it's just nuts. And yet people complain about that, unless they, you know, just, it's just wise
use. And it can work. It does work. It's proven that it works. Yeah.
So talk to me a little bit about the importance of relationships and fishing. Obviously, you have
a different dynamic, you know, with your wife being an active part of your career. But I'm sure
you know people who like either leave the wife at home or maybe the wife gets a little upset about
the amount of time spent in the boat. And how does that get managed? Well, like any career,
sometimes I don't, you know, and in people just go their separate ways. But tournament fishing
because the scheduling is tough. I mean, it's really tough. A lot of guys would bring their
wives and my wife loved that because she got the friends with the wives of the fishermen and
and they would do stuff together and so on. And a lot of them still do travel with their
husbands. A few fish with their husbands, like in partner tournaments and so on do well. They do
very well. But it's a strain. I mean, any regards to what you're doing, it's a strain. But you can
have that same strain if you worked at nine to five. You know, you know, the guy comes home from
work and then goes and goes to the bar all night and plays, shoots pool plays dirt. I did all this
stuff. Shoot pool and do this and play baseball and all summer. And you know, that's the same
thing. You're there, but you're not there. You know, I mean physically there, but you're not there.
And because you're not doing anything with your spouse. So yeah, it's so so yeah, you have that
and you do something that the two have to work out like you would with any any other jobs. Yeah.
Is there a way to make those? I mean, is it is we've heard from some couples that say, Oh, well,
I've come along, read a book read a book in the book. Yeah, you can still go on the water.
There's other just well, no, it's his time. And he's my time.
Well, I, yeah, you just got to decide you're not going to be as selfish as you are. And
with your time, and that's hard for a lot of guys and girls. I mean, just not just the guys guys,
but a lot of times it is, we're say, okay, I need, I need to spend some time here with you. And I'm
going to make the time to do that. And I wasn't real good at that early in my career. It was much
better later. Something I had to learn as well, because it can you yeah, you can go this way pretty
fast. If you're your spouse wants attention. And if you're if you're not giving her attention,
she's going to find attention. So nobody wants that. Neither does she. So, so you just got to
not be selfish and make time. Yeah, well, it probably helped you that she was a part of everything,
right? It did. I mean, you know, you think about that, you got kids who's doing everything with
the kids. She is just taking them to all their games. She is school. She is you're you're fishing.
It don't look good. You know, it doesn't look good because it's not. And but you know, you get
manner, man can be driven. And to the point I'm not seeing that and not appreciating that.
And again, you got to be going to come back to reality. And that means you got to sit down
when you're home, you got to be home. You can't be in relax, you know, because that's your next
tournament. You know, you just got back from Lake Erie. And now you're home, but your heads
are relaxed because that's where you're going tomorrow. And that that's precious time together.
You got to block that out and really spend that time with her. And and and that's enough
sometimes. Sometimes that's not enough. But it's better than nothing. And
in months, once it all falls into place and things can happen for you.
In Lake Erie, she gave up she was a real estate broker at a time when that that thing was just
exploding. And she gave that up to travel with me to help me in my career. That was a big sacrifice
for her for both of us because her income was even better than mine at that time. And it would
have been way better. You know, you know, everything should make a lot of money tournament fishing,
you know, but yeah, I mean, millions of dollars. But but she was wanting to give that up, give up
her career to be with me. And she loved it. I mean, we had did a lot. I mean, we went to places
together. We had never ever been able to afford to go to or take the time to go to. Yeah. That
sponsors paid for. And you know, when you get at that level, this is amazing what you can do. And
people you meet and stuff, you can see concerts and all kinds of crazy things.
So talk to me about the Hall of Fame. How did that come to me?
To get into the fishing Hall of Fame is very simple. You first of all, you have to be nominated
by someone. No matter who you are or how great you are, if you're not nominated, you don't get in.
So you have to be nominated by someone. So someone nominated me. And and years ago, 30 years ago,
and I was so busy fishing, I didn't even care. I mean, you want to nominate great. I don't know.
I don't have time to deal with that. So and I didn't get in. And so then several years later,
another guy, Joel Coons, friend of mine. So I'm going to nominate you for a lot of favors. And
I saw enough time. And he goes, well, you don't need to do anything. I'll do it. Okay. So he nominated
me and he put together a resume and stuff. And I didn't get in. Okay. So, but then I got a little
more interested because now I'm in my 70s. And again, I'd be kind of nice. So we get three chances. So
we did a re nomination, or he did. And it was and did a better job. I did a better job of getting
the information that they wanted that he needed that he couldn't get out of me because I was too
busy doing other stuff. And and so you have to, the protocols you have to follow, if you don't
follow them, even no matter what your resume says, if you don't follow their specific protocols,
you can't get in. So I did that. And the vote is always, they have a committee,
a 10 member committee, it has to be unanimous. So which makes it very, very difficult. And
um, in the unanimously, uh, voted me in 2025. So, um, yeah, it was quite quite the deal. I mean,
it's very honoring, really humbling because the people that are in that, I mean, if you look at
what, what am I doing in this, you know, with these guys over here, but um, yeah, it's, uh,
it's a great honor. And, uh, there's a whole lot of people that aren't in that way, better
fishermen. I, I ever was. And, uh, and they should be in, but you have to follow the rules to get
and just like you do with anything. Yeah. So it takes, uh, a lot of due diligence to, uh,
to get it done the proper way to follow proper channels and do it all, all correctly. But obviously
it can be done. So does it feel like a cherry on top to your, your career? Or is it, uh,
Oh sure. Oh sure. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I never, this is why I never took it so seriously,
the other two times because that, well, if I get it again, if I, I never knew that they had
protocols or rules or things you had to follow, uh, to do this. I said, well, here I am. This is me,
you know, I can catch fish and have one tournaments. And I spoke to millions of people and blah,
blah, blah, blah. And, uh, so, okay. No, like, uh, there are today,
efficient or famous, uh, set anew as a whole set of rules, curricula, you have to follow and,
and so much of it is media. Uh, what have you done? Where have you done a promote fishing?
You know, not only with Scots, but in the world. What have you done, uh, to teach people of fish
in your career? Uh, if you just tournament fish, if you just guided a lot of people that are in
Hall of Fame are in because of that, because of those two things. But today, that's not enough.
Today was all the month I made pot. Do you have a podcast? Do you have a show, a TV show? How do
you reach people? And, uh, have you worked with state agencies and restoration projects? And so,
so it's much more deeper now than it used to be. And, and, and it's understandable. I mean,
when you start out, guy starts out, Hey, I'm starting Hall of Fame. Who are you going to put it? Well,
how about Joe? He's a great fisherman. Okay. You know, and, and it's true. I mean, some,
some of the really early inductees in the Hall of Fame are great guides, you know, but they
couldn't do it. Fisherman could do it a day to promote the sport of angling. And, and I think that,
uh, and, and biologists, so more and more they're leaning toward people who are
writers, but not just writers, writers that are fishermen, writers that promote writers that
work with nonprofit organizations with other fisheries organizations, other groups. I mean,
it's just expanded so much manufacturers that have done contributed hundreds of thousands of
dollars at the industry that get kind of stuff. So yeah, it's, it's not, it's hard. It's really
hard to get in. I'm proof of that. You just can't get in because somebody knows you're a great
fisherman anymore. Yeah, the 10 member, the 10 member voting panel are very, very tough. And,
and I think that's a good thing. Of course I can say that because I, because I made it.
But, but yeah, I mean, I mean, do they give you a call? When that, when it happens,
you get a letter? Or how does that work? They, they send you a letter. Believe it or not. Uh,
they make you a, they, they, they make the decision in July. It don't tell you until
October. Yeah. And you get a letter from the president of the Hall of Fame. Congratulations.
You've been chosen for induction for 2025. That's from Evan Brown. And, uh, I'm like,
yeah, yeah, it was, it was a pretty emotional thing. It still is. And, uh, I'm, like I said,
I'm very humbled by it. I, I'm, I'm sorry that I was so flippant about it all those other years
because it really is a great honor. I mean, it's, uh, yeah. Because I wish I would have had it 30
years ago, so I could have brayed about all these years. They had people who wanted to put you in
just before you died, died. It's a thanks a lot. So take advantage of it because you haven't
got that many years to break about it. But your plaque will always be there. Black will always
be there. One of my grandkids will have that someplace someday. Yeah. Um, I think that's all we need
from you. Okay. Um, thank you for giving us time. Oh, thank you. If you don't mind what I would
like to do is put a little wireless mic on you and have you kind of give Ethan and me a little
tour of your office. Sure. Any other, the mementos and photos from around, from around here, if that's
okay. Sure. Yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. If I, if I had a computer in, uh, back in the days of the
manual typewriter, where I started, uh, my freelance writing career, right at this desk and, uh,
thousands, tens of thousands of hours are tick, tick, tick, tick. And, uh, and, uh, you raised tape
and all that good stuff. And, and, uh, now it's still doing so, a little bit of writing, you know,
with the computer, it's so much easier, so it's nicer. And, uh, of course I had to have a place to
hang up all my, basically my life, or at least most of my life accomplishments here.
Well, snapshot, what we got here, one second. That's all right.
So what do we, what do we got on the wall for some of these players? Yeah. Well, these were
mainly, uh, these are all my walleye. Well, they're not all of them, but, uh, it's one of my top 10
finishes in walleye tournament fishing. And, uh, you can see different places around the world,
Minnesota, Michigan, Arkansas, Arkansas, Super Pro, Missouri Super Pro Championship, and, uh,
Port Clinton, Ohio championship up there. I see one up there. Uh, what a bagel. Well, oh, yeah,
one from when the bagel. It's, uh, Mercury National 2,000. That was a while ago. 25 years ago already.
And, uh, one, I don't have a, I don't mount a lot of stuff in my mounted walleye that, uh,
we used for a four, we had, uh, four shooting for Peck, Montana, and, uh, within Fisherman for
their magazine and publication, other, uh, TV show. And, uh, they needed, uh, one of the walleye
over 10 pounds. And so I went out and caught that. It was a 13. Uh, just drove over a hump and saw it
on the, sitting down on the bottom there with a graph, you know, and, uh, dropped the jig of the
middle down to it and reeled it up and started taking pictures. And it's that fish and, uh,
as fish is on the cover of the walleye insider that's that fish over there. So,
yeah, it's been, uh, most, most people when they say they want a 10 pound walleye in your dreams.
Yeah. Well, we went up in an afternoon. We, we, uh, yeah, I, I always had a,
back in those days, I knew how to catch those big fish. And so I got a lot of opportunities
to go with writers and, and, uh, video people that wanted, wanted big fish. And they said, well,
this is a guy to call. They'd call me. I said, well, that's, yeah, where do you want to go? We'll,
let's go get one. And, uh, they're like, how do you do this? You know, but, uh, uh, it's not hard. I
mean, you pick a time of year, spring or fall and when they're most abundant and they're most
aggressive and you just find them and go catch them, catch them. That's the easiest part. You know,
it's, it's, uh, just, you know, locating and, and, uh, you want photo fish. I mean,
they always wanted bigs. I don't know why. I mean, I think a three pound walleye is just as
impressive as a 10 pounder, but, uh, they don't. So, of course I'm a little guy. So when I hold
a 10 pounder, it's, it looks big. You know, it is big, but yeah, I can hold it. I can make a
five pounder look pretty big. So, man, the rest of it's just a couple deer from years ago that I
got and hunting out here. So I think I saw the photo here. Is this you? That's, yeah, that's, uh,
that's me in a professional walleye trail stage long time ago. I don't even know. Is that Elle?
Think it is. Elle Linda was the MC at that time and I got quite a few pictures of Elle. He's got
his weirdest look on his face is whenever I'm talking because, you know, he's like, what are you
saying? The word salads, you know, so you do it when you bomb an internment, you know. So,
yeah, it's pretty, we're talking about that opera and he laughs about that. He says, yeah,
you just stand there and keep talking, but you never said anything. I said, yeah, it's kind of,
what you do when you fail, you know. Yeah, the other things are just crazy stuff.
Uh, do you want to get used to tripod and get some skills? I think we're going to let you
have a shot at it in the other two boys. So, uh, yeah, there's a riot on top water baits too. Oh,
really? That'd be fun. They kind of hooked themselves so that I figured it'd be the easiest for the
kids, you know. Yeah, that was a blast. It's probably the loudest screaming though, right?
Lots of screaming, especially from the little ones. Yeah. Yeah, I started bird watching and there
was a fall migration of warblers. He's naming off the bird's flight order going peep, chirp.
Oh, that's a black birdie in the world. It's a black and white warbler. Oh, there goes a
Cape May warbler. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. You know, there's a blue jade.
I'm buying them. Well, that and other said I would submit to other magazines and they were buying
them. So then all of a sudden I'm writing a column for the local paper, then I'm writing for the
other paper over in Green Lake, another column, and I'm writing constantly. It's all I was doing.
I was writing, but I was selling it and it wasn't hard. So was it mostly birds and fish or what
were the topics? It was mostly birds and fish observation. It wasn't science-based,
but then I got elected to the Conservation Congress. So then I started doing reporting,
which obviously a whole different kind of worms. And that was so easy compared to
creative writing. So I started doing working as a freelancer to cover stories for
I did something journal, Milwaukee Journal, a couple for Madison paper there for that
meeting. Could you cover it and send us a piece and we want 500 words or whatever.
And that's why I started doing that. And those all paid really well and much more than like say
a local column, but the local column and the paper paid every week. So I got an outdoor column,
well then they had me start doing reporting. So then I got paid more and photography. So I got
paid more and went on for, well 78 is when I started, 89 is when I stopped writing all together
because of my turn to my career. Although I didn't read several books, it was less different.
So I wrote the Journal of Walli Pro and wrote a thousand. Well then a new guy comes in and
why are we selling his books? And we shouldn't be selling somebody else's books. We should only
be selling our authors books. That was after the lenders sold. That was Al's idea. So the new
people said, okay, yeah, let's get rid of all of these gerry persons had one, no chad one. So
they called me and said, hey, we got 8000 of these books sitting here. And we're going to phase them
out. Do you want them? This is what you want for me. It's a bucket piece. I go, okay. So I bought
them. I said, let's buy them. I'll sell them at sport shows. Well, they were gone in like two years
because I'm getting out of the writing business and the publishing business. And I've got
6,000 of these books. Do you want them? And this is how much? She's just three bucks. I go
18 grand. A lot of money. So we talked it over. We talked it over. He lives in Iowa.
And I said, let's do it. I said, we sold all these other ones. We're selling them. Let's just
we'll sell them eventually. So we bought the journal book and went out of the Madison show.
I said, you know, this is a pretty good gig. So they asked, we end up selling that. I had
the video and then I did the jigging and spoon video and I wrote a fishing with a mission and
I wrote a ghost road, a cookbook for a buddy of mine and then the local guy, the Buffalo Lake
fishing. And my very after three, I wrote three stories. You can get them at Amazon
for $75 to $150 a piece. Boy, I wish I had a kept a couple of cases.
Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, we try to share a fun had a good way of saying, oh, look at there.
Did you brought it home? Yeah, it's pretty funny. So I only got two of those left.
And I only have the other seven. Yeah, the obvious is VHS tapes on it's all junk. I mean,
no, we should buy those. But at that, my little, yeah, what do you do with that stuff? I mean,
do you think we could borrow this? You can have it. Digitize some of this. Sure.
These will grab a couple clips out of here. Cool. Yeah, that'd be great.
Sure, absolutely. Some vintage stuff. Definitely an vintage.
I haven't got some bait up there somewhere. Seriously? I do.
Oh, where it is. The engineers would probably be happier with baited than they would be.
They probably would. Yeah. I don't know where it is, but share somewhere. That's funny.
Unless I taught, you know, I don't think I threw that out.
Very cool.
I don't see it though.
It should be right up there with the rest of it. Maybe I did throw it because I figured I
had nobody's ever gonna just look at this. Believe me, I did such a clearing of stuff.
You wouldn't just bins and piles and piles and piles of promotional crap.
You know, because this just was of no value.
No.
Some of those, like,
they was the greatest thing on earth for about a year.
And then I must have got everybody that wanted to buy one because I'm sitting here with a bunch.
You know, not that I tried to sell them. I don't see that bait up, but I didn't think it.
That's cool. Yeah.
Sorry, I think visually. No, but then you come to a watch like full.
Yeah, we just feel like it's a pop to get into it.
Just sure you're not doing your first story again.
Do you have a big Paul McCartney fan? Oh, yeah.
I mean, the song Youngboy is incredible. Oh, yeah? Yeah.
Yeah, I heard it. I highly recommend what some of his solo work.
I actually made in my, like I said, in our crazy profession,
I ran into this guy, Ken Mansfield. He was, he was a manager of U.S. manager for Apple Records.
Oh, wow.
For the Beatles. And we became friends in a bizarre twist of fate.
He wanted to hire me to be, he was a speaker, a motivational speaker.
And he said, I make the hire of you to be my manager.
And I almost did it. That was in 2009, right after I got out of tournament fishing.
And Shari just looked at me. She goes, what's wrong with you?
She says, what does that mean? I go, I don't have to fly to LA and
let's other places, a couple of times a week in Nashville or she like, no,
I'm not doing it. She's, no, it's really not. She's crazy.
I said, it'd be so cool. She says, no.
My Lindy commercial. That was like from 80 something.
Uh, good grief.
What's it like revisiting all this up here?
It's like a different person. You know, it's like it was a different person.
Did that guy know what was coming to him?
I cannot believe I would have thrown that because I, because I would have thought,
ask somebody some, no, I'm not seeing it.
By your webs up here. So last time I'd been up there.
Oh, sorry guys. What's this little short one here, baby?
Beta would have been a shorter box.
Okay.
No, it's not that, I'm weedling it.
Yeah, it's a VHS too.
Oh yeah. This, um, this has my promotional,
like my, my, what they would play before I would speak.
Oh really?
Yeah, it's where it shows. They pop and then it would show me,
that's a monster fish and a lot of crap.
See, that's where I had on beta too.
Cause, cause back then you had to. Yeah, they're both.
You want that at all or? Sure. I mean, I wouldn't say no.
Something to look at. Yeah.
Yeah, the betas were much shorter than the VHS.
So we're, we're, we're good. I'm sure this will work.
Yeah, cause the beta was this would have been the same.
Same footage. Pretty easy.
So this, uh, this Ken guy, we meet, we meet him and his wife and go ahead.
When those guys were the outlaws, that's who managed them.
And then, uh, Jesse Colter, who was William Jennings' wife,
and then I went in a Grammy and he was, and he got a Grammy because he was her
man, sort of another career young enough to do it.
So why was he looking to you to manage as opposed to like someone who had a lot of
managing experience? Yeah, that's what I said to him.
He says, cause I don't want, he says, I don't have the time to do it.
He says, I'm running around speaking all the time.
He says, I need somebody to book my flights, book my, all my stuff.
And he was trying to do it himself.
And he was undergoing having cancer treatments and all kinds of stuff going on.
So he says, you know how to do this, right? I go, yeah.
Yeah. I said, that's what I used to do.
If I had a seminar in, in New York, I would try to book something.
Yeah, I shouldn't say that for quite a bit, but when it was my own deal, I would drive.
When it was, when it was a corporate deal, they would always pay for the flight.
So, yeah, of course. Yeah.
Yeah. Some of that was charter. So that was nice.
Just go there and jump in the plane and fly away.
That Miami show, Reno, Dallas.
And so Miami would still want someone to come in and talk about why.
No, but the sponsor would want you there to sell boats.
Yeah. Yeah. So you'd go down and do that.
And, you know, it was, they were opening a new bus, south sponsor by Bass Pro.
So, you know. So at that point, when you get to that level,
they sponsor electrical. So it flighted Dallas, landed Dallas, Fort Worth,
and this Bass Pro. So you get there and there's a limo driver with your name.
And you get down there and you jump in, they drive you right straight to the show.
You know, you get there, you walk in, big celebrity and all that crap.
And sit down and sign autographs. And, you know, they're going, they know me because
they have no idea, but they did. And it's like, oh man, I feel bad for you.
You know, you'll be down here in Bass Country in Palobani.
They bring you a stack of your picture of a sign with your stats on it.
So we already stacked.
And so that's what you're always well-green, Grantson.
Well, my mom's 96. She's my biggest fan, but my mom is my second biggest fan.
Because that was her dad and her husband, my dad, who taught me how to fish.
So she goes to these events I speak at and she just stands up and birds it right out.
Yeah, she's pretty proud. So that always makes, it's nice to have parents.
It's probably, you know, and I'm glad she's still around. And she's doing great.
Yeah, lives alone. That's all her own stuff. Doesn't bother at all.
Goes down by the river, down that river bay, down the stuff.
Talk for an hour or two. He's big on putting pieces in. I'm big on questions.
That is so foreign to the frenetic life I used to live. They just sit there and put a puzzle
together. But I have to do it. So when she gets it out, I have to do it.
Yes, to do it. And I have to get it done as soon as possible. So still for that, I can still
still competitive. Yes, he is that way. And we watched Jeopardy. And every day at 4.30,
and we sit together holding hands and we watched Jeopardy. And he answers all the questions.
I get one or two in an hour. She's like, how do you know that? And why do you know that?
Some of them are so off the grid. I don't know. But it's just, I don't know, I retain information.
Well, he's not very used to it, at least. And you know, that story, I've forgotten more about
fishing. I think it's going on a fishing talk. I can, I remember everything.
And you add a few things to it to make it. That I don't. It's more fun.
This is all about detail. And yeah, he's just, you can't, nope, he can't be like I can only,
you know, I mean, just one like I can only don't try to be like him. He's nuts. And, but he's also,
he's either the top of the mouth or the bottom of the cliff and on, you can't be that either.
So, and I like Mike. Mike has Mike's gotten older, he's smelling a little bit, but, and a lot of that was
stick. I mean, that's not the real Mike. I can only seriously, a lot of that was just part of the
show, but that's okay. You know, that's, that made him a career. You know, they don't,
media don't like boring people. You know, you have, you know, they want people that person.