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Well, I guess when it starts with kind of explaining what it is that why this lake was

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a good choice as a not one that's generally accessible to the public for the experiment

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that you guys are running.

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Yeah.

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For the experiment that we're running here which is overall the objective is does adding

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trees or of course would be habitat to a lake increase fish community productivity or the

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carrying capacity of the lake.

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And there's not even though there's thousands of lakes up here, there's not a lot of lakes

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where we can do a manipulation or experiment at that sort of scale.

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Also in the absence, as we look around the lake today, there's no development.

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This is the minor footprint of any development on the lake in its entirety so we can truly

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understand how the fish community responds to that manipulation and the absence of things

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like high fishing pressure invasive species, lake shore residential development, excess

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nutrient loading, all those things.

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So it's really ideal.

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It was ideal because it's a manageable lake size, it's about 90 acres this lake here.

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In addition to that, we've really only studied kind of woody habitat dynamics in relatively

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simple fish communities, largemouth bass and yellow perch or largemouth bass and blue

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gill.

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This lake has a pretty species diverse fish community for a small lake so we've got natural

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reproducing musculone, smallmouth bass, walleye, largemouth bass, as far as the pan

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fish, yellow perch, rock bass, blue gill, pumpkin seed, green sunfish and hybrids of

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those species.

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There's some white sucker in here, there's very few crappy.

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So it's a very diverse fish community and we can understand a little bit more than just

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bass and blue gill and bass and yellow perch about how the fish community or more diverse

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fish community might respond to these sorts of manipulations.

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So why don't you take us around and show us some good examples of what you've been doing.

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Sure.

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So we started the experiment out here in 2015 and often we do, or generally always with

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whole lake experiments, what we should be doing is we should have a treatment and a reference

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system.

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So our reference system for this lake is Escanaba Lake and in 2015 to 2018 we essentially came

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out here every spring and sampled the fish community and got to understand the limnological

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conditions, the riparian zone conditions.

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So for three years we just wanted to get a baseline.

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What was, how was this lake behaving, so to speak, is it's fish community, is it's water

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quality and other aspects that we were interested in that might be influenced by a whole lake

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edition of Woody Habitat.

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And in 2018, in the summer of 2018, these are some of the trees that were dropped at

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that point.

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So you can see the needles are no longer on the trees anymore, but they're still maintaining

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a pretty high branching complexity, even after seven years of being in this lake, ice conditions.

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But the bark is starting to be gone now.

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But again, those very smallest branches seem to be holding on, the needles are gone.

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It's early in the season yet, if this was about a month from now, you'd see a parafight

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or algae growth on these trees that we dropped in 2018.

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If we get up close, maybe not right now, but in the summertime, you'll see small bluegills

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and other fish that are all inside that refuge area.

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You might see some of the larger predatory or piscivorous fish eating fish, musky bass

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using the outside edges of them in a couple of weeks here.

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We might see like smallmouth bass and largemouth bass nesting in association with that wood.

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So this was the initial phase of the experiment, or phase one, where we dropped 140 trees

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all along the north shore of the lake here.

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And we did it in kind of bundles and complexes.

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As you can see, we got a couple there, and we're just kind of opportunistic with the sizes.

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And we dropped trees commensurate with what the forest is.

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It was about 87% conifers, 13% deciduous trees, mostly maples.

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So that was the first phase of the project, and then we monitor it, what happened to the

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fish community, what happened to the limnology of the lake in that first five, six, seven

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years, actually we monitored for six years what it ended up being, because we missed

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a year with COVID, with field sections.

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So both.

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So when you sample the fish community, we do surveys out here just like we do on a lot

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of our other lakes.

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We'll fight net it for usually out here for about a month to get through all the species.

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We get mark recapture population estimates on all the major species in here.

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And then through the collection of aging material from those fish and the population estimates,

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we can measure production, so fish production of the fish community.

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And production is a rate, so it's for scientific terms, it's kilograms per hectare per year.

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English units would be pounds per acre per year.

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And so it's a rate of the productive capacity of an individual species.

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And what we found, we've just submitted this paper for publication to Fisheries Magazine,

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which is an American Fisheries Society publication, is that in, you know, six years

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post close woody habitat addition of those 140 trees, we've doubled the fish community

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production of Sanford Lake here.

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What mostly happened is what we hypothesize what happened is every one of these trees

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is setting up a micro ecosystem within this larger ecosystem.

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So that tree drops in, it slowly starts to degrade, that parafite grows on it, that

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algae, that healthy algae, that attracts benthic macaron vertebrates, that attracts

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the small fishes that eat those, and eventually that's to translate up into the upper trophic

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levels into the musky, into the bass, and into the walleye.

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So in this phase of the experiment right now, most of that production is all locked up in

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those lower trophic level forage fishes, so major increases in production in yellow

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perch, bluegill, and rock bass as a response to the experiment.

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And we'll continue to monitor it as we get farther down the lake here.

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Phase two of the project was to drop trees on the entire western shoreline of the lake.

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And so we really loaded it up this last time and added, and we'll see this when we get

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down the shore, we added 240 more trees to this lake in early November this past fall.

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And the reason we're doing this and staggering it is we want to find out, or we want to test

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whether there's a point where fish production basically caps out and saturates.

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So is there a point where you don't get the benefit of adding the wood anymore for fish

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production?

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You see some of the parafite in there, that's also freshwater sponge, which is kind of neat.

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The other reason that we are staggering these tree drops in the lake, because eventually

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we'll have a third phase where we do the rest of the lake the entire southern shore.

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We're staggering it because most of the lakes in northern Wisconsin are almost anywhere.

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There's not going to be this amount of area to put trees into, so it'd be good to know

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if there is a saturating point and we get the question of how many trees should we add

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to get this sort of response, or what type of tree should we add to get a response.

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We should be able to answer some of those questions.

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So again, everything we're trying to do here is applied so that what we learn here can

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be taken on the landscape for the greater good of lakes based on what we observe here.

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Yeah, so if you determine if there's a difference between dropping a carnivore versus a deciduous

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tree?

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Not a difference per se.

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It's only going to be, or what we do know is it's going to be in longevity of how long

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that wood's going to last.

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And so everything we've dropped in here is either a hardwood or a conifer, and they

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last a long time compared to something like a birch or an aspen in our softer woods.

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They also have to maintain their branching complexity a bit better, but like the conifers,

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you know, if we were to take a chance out of that one right there, and we cut into that

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sap that smells fresh is cutting that tree down in the wood.

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It doesn't degrade very rapidly at all, especially those that are under water.

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So it's a long process.

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They've done some dendrology on woody habitat and lakes and some Ontario lakes, and some

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of those pieces of wood were, had been in the lake for 500, 550 years.

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It's very long lived.

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Another reason for doing the experiment out here though is that there was a lot of woody

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habitat in this lake, but it was all highly degraded and not contributing to the system

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so to speak anymore.

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So this was kind of a pulse of new course woody habitat, new carbon that's going to

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slowly enter this system.

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And then as we've shown so far, it's made its way into the food web and increased fish

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production.

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So is there a difference between someone who will like foot logs out on the ice in the

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middle of the lake versus dropping a tree on the edge?

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Yeah.

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So we've had a lot of conversations about that and some research.

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So formerly within Wisconsin DNR, you know, we'd fill out permits for cribs, fish cribs,

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which is more of what you're talking about, Zach, where we're going to go on to some

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deeper water.

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It's not going to be a navigational hazard.

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We're going to kind of sink a lot of cabin or a complex of trees.

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We've gotten away from that as an agency.

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We still have that permit and we still allow it, but we've gone more towards fish sticks

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and tree drops, which this is because that simulates the natural environment of what

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happened.

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That pine tree right there, you know, when that dies, it has 360 degrees to fall and

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about 180 of them would be associated with the lake.

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That's the natural process we're trying to simulate with this.

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What we did here was by request of the group that we're working with.

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They wanted us to specifically do tree drops.

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Another thing that we promote that's probably even better than tree drops is if possible,

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go cut wood in an upland forest that's away from the lakes.

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You leave all the riparian habitat to fall in, bring that on to the ice in the winter

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and distribute it like this, and that's what we call our fish sticks program that

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Scott Toshner started at least 10 years ago now in Northwestern, Wisconsin, based out

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of the Hayward and Broul area.

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So I guess that's, I mean, obviously there's an advantage to having a private lake that

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you can do this on where it is more of a controlled experiment, but if we're going

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to expand this to public lakes that are developed, they don't have trees left, but they can

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still possibly get there by fish sticks.

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And that's exactly what we're doing.

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So as an agency, we prefer to have the riparian zone intact.

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There's all kinds of benefits to having that riparian forest from preventing nutrients

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from getting in the lake, some water purification, clarification sorts of purposes, so those

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runoff effects, but then also having that leaf litter that actually falls in the lake breaks

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down and gets incorporated into the food web, as well as just the woody habitat that might

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naturally fall in through a storm event or senescence or a beaver dropping it into

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the lake.

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So that's exactly what we'd, you know, promote in those sorts of situations is that we want,

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we've, we'd sign that permit, but we want you to bring it from upland sources, drag

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it onto the lake and winter and distribute it.

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And we were on Lake Namacocket, Mike D'Andrea, at least they've dropped a number on a one

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undeveloped section of shoreline.

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So when, when, how fast do they see results?

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So I'd say relatively quickly depending on what the response is.

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And so in general, as soon as you drop these trees, they'll become fish attracting structure

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really rapidly, especially for the small fishes.

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And then the larger fishes off would set up ambush points on the edges of it.

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Then within a couple of years, you're going to start to see the degradation of the tree

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bark, the pine needles falling off and things like that.

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The trees start to get your parafight and through that degradation and those release

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and nutrients.

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The background vertebrates quickly respond to that.

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And then like I said, the micro ecosystem now, the fish progression starts.

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So it happens pretty rapidly, you know, once, once these are implemented.

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Another question we get about this, you know, I talk about parafight and it's kind of a

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healthy, naturally algae.

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One of the other questions that we answered in this experiment is we've heard a number

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of times like, well, if we add trees to our lake, that's going to make the water less

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clear.

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It's going to, because of the nutrients that are in the system now, it's going to lead

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to harmful algal blooms and it's just going to change our water quality in general.

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So we're not in favor of it.

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We just published a paper recently, said that basically what we did out here changed none

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of those variables.

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It didn't change anything, meaning for chlorophyll, A went up a tiny bit, but it didn't make

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any difference with like second distransparency or water clarity in this lake.

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And so that was, I think, a good, again, one of those demonstration experiments like I

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talked about until you do it and you measure it and you get it out there and are able to

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talk about it, people may be reluctant to do something that's quite beneficial for a lake.

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There's a lot of conventional wisdom that you have to overcome in a lot of these places

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where people, this is why we've always done it, this is what we've always assumed.

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How hard is it to, I mean, can one study penetrate some of that or does it have to be a study

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that then shows it, like they have to feel it themselves?

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I think a little bit of both, I mean, I guess I think the demonstration science helps a

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lot, but it is also the outreach then, right?

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And so as an agency, we spend a lot of time working with lake associations and anglers

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and fishing clubs to take the science that's out here that we're looking at right now

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and the research we're looking at right now and the results and taking it out into the

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public and having those conversations and showing those things and talking about it.

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And so I think that's one of our greatest tools that we have for some of those transformative

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changes or policy changes.

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And then like I said, I think oftentimes there's a lot of, can be very contagious.

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And so you get a lake association or someone that sees the results, they understand the

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results and then it becomes, they're promoting it and it propagates from there.

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So I think a lot of that is where, you know, big progress comes from these sorts of things.

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You see all the fresh water sponge that's growing, so that's been a really, yep, yep.

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So there's kind of green, wavy sort of stocks there, that's fresh water sponge.

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And that was a pretty big response, a lot of parafyting, but a lot of fresh water sponge

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on most of these trees.

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Are we able to kind of go into them and Ethan's got the GoPro, we can kind of put that down

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the water.

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I'm going to take you to one of our biggest ones down here.

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We got a huge hemlock that we dropped and maybe that'll be a neat one.

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That one was so loud when I hit the water, it like cut out the audio on my video camera.

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It just like went blank for a second when I hit the water.

220
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:17,880
And we've left a couple areas in here by the club's request, like this one not to drop

221
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:18,880
trees here.

222
00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:25,440
There is some walleye spawning that goes on in here.

223
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,240
For the most part, you know, we added a lot of trees and we're going to go along the western

224
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,360
shoreline here, which we did last fall.

225
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,760
Take a look.

226
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,360
Other work that we're doing out here, we're doing a lot of behavioral work with fish to

227
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,240
see how they respond to this.

228
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:47,200
We have muskeys, small mouth, large mouth and walleye that have radio transmitters in

229
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,200
them.

230
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,840
So we find where they are in the lake every two weeks.

231
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,880
We've had what are called pit tag receivers out here.

232
00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:59,000
So your pit tag is the same as like a microchip that you might put into a pet that gets lost

233
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,120
and you can find it.

234
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,440
We put a lot of those into fish and we had receivers out here that were tracking fish

235
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:08,680
movements in relation to the new habitat constantly basically.

236
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:13,920
Anytime they passed over those antenna, they would get picked up and we get that information

237
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,840
from a master's student who might have worked on that aspect of the project out here.

238
00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,480
It's been very interesting.

239
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:26,880
So there was definitely some early attraction to the structure, but then we started to see

240
00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,120
more offshore movement and just movement in general.

241
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,720
And we think based on the literature and those results, what we're seeing is that we probably

242
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:42,280
created so much good refuge habitat in here that it did become good foraging habitat anymore.

243
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,760
You can hit that point and it's another reason of doing the experiment of how much is too

244
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,200
much where you start to imbalance things in the other way because we know this with aquatic

245
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,280
weeds and with some woody habitat studies.

246
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,200
This went up.

247
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,880
In other studies, we found that their activity cost for the predators went down because it

248
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,000
would just stay in association with the habitat.

249
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:27,200
It's been seven years and we can see, oops, if we look into the water, all the branching

250
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:35,200
complexity that's still remaining in habitat that that's creating for small fish.

251
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:42,200
And I'll also note these woody habitat logicians are not just for fish, this is basking habitat

252
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,200
for turtles.

253
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,200
In the right situation, a loom may build its nest on a floating log in the right situation.

254
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:53,200
You see blue herons perched on them and fishing.

255
00:17:53,200 --> 00:18:00,200
And I'll also note that these woody habitat logicians are not just for fish, this is basking

256
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,200
habitat for turtles.

257
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:08,200
In the right situation, a loom may build its nest on a floating log in the right situation.

258
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,200
You see blue herons perched on them and fishing.

259
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,200
So there's a lot of different benefits.

260
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,200
The yellow perch lay their eggs.

261
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,200
Their egg ribbons will be draped across this course, woody habitat.

262
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,200
Same thing for frogs and toads and our amphibians.

263
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,200
They use this habitat too.

264
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,200
And that's not even many.

265
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:41,200
In some years out here, we're dip netting out five gallon buckets full of tadpoles.

266
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,200
And what I've understood over the years here, I'm pretty sure the green frogs and what

267
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,200
happens is that they get these banner tadpole years where everything's right.

268
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,200
And there's so many of them that they actually, it becomes a rhinovirus diaph.

269
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,200
So we've seen it on Escanaba for sure.

270
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:56,200
I think it's seen it here.

271
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:02,200
So as they start to emerge from tadpoles to become frogs, right at that stage that rhinovirus

272
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:06,200
kind of hits and knocks those densities down and so you'll see a lot of dead tadpoles

273
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,200
and our tadpoles that are going through metamorphosis.

274
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,200
Yeah, the tadpoles.

275
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,200
I think it's pretty good size.

276
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,200
These tadpoles are in the water for at least two years and so a lot of the ones in here

277
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,200
and Escanaba, they're getting their legs right now.

278
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:34,200
So we're just ending the first phase of the woody habitat edition right now.

279
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:40,200
Again, that was in June of 2018 that we dropped those trees along the north shoreline.

280
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:49,200
And then we started phase two this past fall in early November of 2024 where now we're on

281
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:56,200
the western shoreline of the lake and I came out here with a forester and took a look

282
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:02,200
at opportunistically at what trees would make sense species-wise to drop in.

283
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:10,200
And now we're seeing trees that have been dropped in wherever we're at six months ago now

284
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,200
and have just gone through their first winter.

285
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,200
You can see there's a little discoloration on some of the pine needles there but we still

286
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:23,200
have some green underneath and again we're pretty opportunistic at trying to put the trees

287
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:29,200
in bundles creating a lot of habitat to continue to see how it influences the fish community

288
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,200
production of the lake and other aspects of the aquatic ecosystem out here.

289
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,200
We worked with some amazing loggers that did this.

290
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,200
How long do you think it took to drop 240 trees into the shoreline of the lake with two guys?

291
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,200
Walking?

292
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,200
Yep.

293
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,200
With the chainsaw?

294
00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:50,200
Yep.

295
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,200
Three hours.

296
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,200
We started about 9.30 and we were eating lunch at 1 and they took a couple breaks.

297
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,200
It was a little bit warmer that day and I started to understand it.

298
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,200
I was like guys by all means I'm like take your time.

299
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,200
And they didn't want to go back to the shop degrees equipment and stuff like that.

300
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:16,200
And so, and it was, I mean it was just amazing to watch a professional work in that aspect.

301
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,200
I wish I had the same level of confidence.

302
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:19,200
Yeah.

303
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,200
Just guys like guys, this is absolutely incredible what you're doing.

304
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:23,200
This is amazing.

305
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,200
You can see the beaver.

306
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,200
Mm-hmm.

307
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,200
They're like this is the cherry of cherry jobs we get.

308
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:32,200
We're not trying to lift a huge tree that's sitting over somebody's garage.

309
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,200
You know with this lift, this pulley system, he's like we're just dropping trees.

310
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:37,200
He's like this is great.

311
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,200
You figure it would take longer than just to walk.

312
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,200
He said three hours.

313
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,200
Wow.

314
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,200
And they probably took at least, they took two, they took like a 10 minute break.

315
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:55,200
And they took like a 20 minute break.

316
00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:01,200
And as little as just zip, zip, booms, zip, zip, boom.

317
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,200
So is the bike net in here deliberately trying to see what comes into these shorelines?

318
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,200
It's more opportunistically.

319
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,200
We typically set them in slightly different areas.

320
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,200
But now that there's so much wood on this side of the lake, it's harder to get to some of the place they wanted to.

321
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,200
So Taylor, she's the one Taylor and Dylan said it this year.

322
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:30,200
So they just said it more opportunistically to get good coverage of the lake where we know there's decent walleye spawning habitat.

323
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:35,200
Because our nets out here, they've got good coverage throughout the lake and we're getting all species.

324
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:43,200
But at least early on we're targeting walleye spawning habitat.

325
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,200
So what is the walleye per acre?

326
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:54,200
Out here, it started at about three adults per acre in 2015.

327
00:22:54,200 --> 00:23:01,200
Like many of the lakes up here, especially the smaller ones, we've seen that slightly decline over time.

328
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,200
We've written about this.

329
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:10,200
We can't say that it's because of the tree drops causing it because it's been a system, like a systemic pattern up here at that same time.

330
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,200
Where small lakes and walleye recruitment seem to go down.

331
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:20,200
We've seen an uptick of largemouth bass out here afterwards, but that's often what happens in other places.

332
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:30,200
So our note to those interested in this practice for fish habitat purposes is probably to be precautionary in walleye lakes.

333
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:36,200
And certainly not unknown walleye spawning locations within a lake.

334
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:45,200
This lake probably did not originally have walleye. It was stocked by the club in the 70s. It was naturally reproducing.

335
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:55,200
But again, as we talked about this morning, some of that fades away over time where this lake has got very limited walleye spawning habitat, very limited.

336
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,200
In fact, I can't even tell you exactly where they spawn in here.

337
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,200
I could go out and ask an album, point out 10 different areas where I know walleyes are going to be spawning.

338
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,200
If we went out there at night and electrified it, we're probably even more.

339
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,200
In here, we've been out here electrified fishing and what we think is peak spawn.

340
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:18,200
You get a couple here, you get a couple there, but you don't see the concentrations of fish like we do in other lakes.

341
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:29,200
So what are the types of habitat that are ideal for walleye spawning?

342
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:35,200
So for walleye spawning, their ideal habitat is to have gravel and cobble.

343
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:43,200
And so oftentimes, they can wind swept shorelines so that it's constantly cleaning that silt and it's nice and oxygenated.

344
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:49,200
So when walleye spawn, they're broadcast spawners, which means that they spawn and then there's no parental guarding or anything.

345
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,200
They just leave those eggs to the mercy of environmental conditions.

346
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,200
But with that spawning habitat, those eggs are sticky.

347
00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,200
They fall down into the interstices of that gravel and cobble where they're kind of protected.

348
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,200
They've got enough oxygen. They're not getting suffocated by silt.

349
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,200
And so that's what walleyes are really looking for.

350
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,200
So then why did they use the marshes on the wool?

351
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,200
There's unique circumstances where walleye can do some different things.

352
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,200
There's I think Lake Pepin in the Mississippi River is a similar situation.

353
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:26,200
And so somehow they're making it work and found a way to adapt to those marsh conditions in spawning in them.

354
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:32,200
But in general, with walleyes of river fish, that's what they're seeking is gravel and cobble.

355
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:38,200
And there's gravel and cobble in here, but it's a smaller lake.

356
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,200
It doesn't get wind swept just by the general nature of it being small.

357
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,200
It's got the wind pushing us in a little bit.

358
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,200
Did you want to put the GoPro in the water?

359
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,200
Especially if there's some of these green ones?

360
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,200
And if you need it, we've got a lot of b-roll of that stuff.

361
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,200
Of GoPro of underwater photography from our comms gals.

362
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:15,200
They came out here and got in the water for a couple days and did a bunch of it.

363
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:39,200
Yeah, let's get that.

364
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,200
And if you need anything specifically for me, then just let me know.

365
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,200
Yeah, sure.

366
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,200
Are you waiting on those regulations?

367
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:55,200
That feels like another one that's going to have science and then the politics or the implications for the people that fish those so most heavily.

368
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,200
Not wanting to have to change what they've always done.

369
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,200
Yeah, I think it's a little bit half and half.

370
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,200
I understand why we're doing it.

371
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:14,200
I'm glad we've done a very nice experiment testing it out over a hundred waters for a period of time that let us know how panfish are going to respond.

372
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:25,200
I do worry a little bit because of some panfish and negative interactions with walleyes and other species because that should serve to increase abundances to a few lower exploitation.

373
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,200
But I guess that becomes part of the next experiment to see what happens.

374
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,200
Well, that's croppy, right?

375
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,200
Yeah, croppy.

376
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,200
His perch abundance is good for walleyes.

377
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:36,200
Right.

378
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,200
Do they predate on walleyes or exclusively?

379
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,200
The croppy?

380
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,200
Yeah.

381
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:46,200
We think, and it's really difficult with diet studies like that because it can happen really, really quickly.

382
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:50,200
We've got a whole bunch of croppies and then the walleyes are all this big and they're interacting the same habitat.

383
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,200
They can disappear almost before you can even track it.

384
00:27:54,200 --> 00:28:06,200
But my inclination is that when walleye are, you know, being born, they're interacting with adult croppy that are feeding heavily at that time.

385
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,200
And croppies are, they're pysivores.

386
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,200
They will eat plankton and things like that.

387
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,200
But if they can get minnows, that's going to be a main forage for them.

388
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:21,200
And I think it's just one of those things where they could probably wipe out a year class when they're at higher abundance is pretty quick.

389
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,200
Am I doing okay for you, Ethan?

390
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,200
Okay.

391
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,200
So there really aren't going to be any good walleye croppy lakes.

392
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,200
In general, what we see is that they cycle.

393
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,200
There's rehabilitation.

394
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:42,200
So kentuck lake is a great example up here in Violas County where kentuck lakes, walleye population, has collapsed a number of times.

395
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,200
Whenever it collapses, it usually turns into a world-class croppy fishery for a while.

396
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:54,200
I don't think it mentioned it in Paul Romski's Walla beautiful creature of the nightbook, but he's talking about the upper red lakes.

397
00:28:54,200 --> 00:29:01,200
When that population collapsed in upper red, the walleye population, that was a world-class destination for croppies.

398
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:09,200
And so they seem to go that way where if croppy get the upper edge, walleye go down, or if walleye go down for some reason, it releases the croppies.

399
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:17,200
Even if we're fishing kentuck when I was a kid, that was just a crazy panfish lake and then all of a sudden it shifted again.

400
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:18,200
Yep.

401
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:27,200
So we have several examples of that where a walleye population collapses or declines and the croppy fishery just takes off.

402
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:38,200
So why are large-melt baths different than small-melt baths when it comes to interacting with walleye?

403
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,200
Yeah.

404
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:49,200
Small-melt habitat preferences are much more specialized than large-melt baths.

405
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,200
And large-melt baths tend to be a bit more of a generalist feeder.

406
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,200
So small-melt baths, you know, they're spawning habitat.

407
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,200
They're going to need to exclusively find some gravel and cobble.

408
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,200
There might be sand over those areas, but they'll fan out a nest to get to that habitat,

409
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,200
whereas some of the large-melt baths work I've done, they can spawn on just about anything.

410
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,200
You'll see them spawn on a mark.

411
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,200
You'll see them spawning on top of that lard right there.

412
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,200
You'll see them spawning on top of a rock, especially when they're at higher densities.

413
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,200
So they kind of make it work.

414
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:29,200
And I think what the large-melt and croppy, they're very similar species as far as a bit more generalist in their spawning habitats,

415
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,200
how much fish they eat.

416
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,200
Like small-melt, they eat a lot of crayfish if it's available.

417
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,200
They'll also eat fish too.

418
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,200
But they're typically associated with rocks and crayfish.

419
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:43,200
I think macaron vertebrates where bass are just much more generalist predators,

420
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,200
probably much like a croppy is.

421
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,200
Should I just keep buttoning around?

422
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,200
Or do you need some specific?

423
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,200
I think we're probably good on this, and we'll probably, if we head back...

424
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,200
Get to in Madison.

425
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,200
I don't know.

426
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:11,200
I mean, if it was 82 here, I'm sure it was, I don't know if you'd be pushing 90, but I bet you it was pretty darn warm.

427
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,200
This feels like what I expected.

428
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,200
It's like a nice day in spring for me.

429
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,200
This would be a nice five-net day outside of the...

430
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,200
It's a little windy.

431
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,200
Because I don't know, yesterday, yesterday was a nice day, but when it gets windy like this,

432
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:35,200
depending on the net location, sometimes it causes the net to roll,

433
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:40,200
and that could be a little bit of a pain sometimes.

434
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,200
There's everything waterproof there for you, Ethan.

435
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,200
This is it.

436
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:58,200
Okay, because...

437
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,200
A little splash is fine.

438
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:00,200
All right.

439
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,200
I mean, there's not really anything I can do.

440
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,200
It's fine.

441
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,200
No, that's a little bit more than a little.

442
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,200
And that wind's picking up now.

443
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:07,200
I'll see.

444
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,200
It'll just...

445
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,200
Once we go a little bit further, we'll go a little bit further.

446
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,200
I'll see.

447
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,200
I'll see.

448
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,200
I'll see.

449
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:15,200
I'll see.

450
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,200
I'll see.

451
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:17,200
I'll see.

452
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,200
I'll see.

453
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,200
I'll see.

454
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,200
I'll see.

455
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:21,200
I'll see.

456
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,200
I'll see.

457
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,200
It'll just...

458
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,200
Once we go a little bit more, I mean, I wonder if I could go a little faster,

459
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,200
maybe, and maybe that'll help, just to get us away from this.

460
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,200
There.

461
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:53,200
There.

462
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:54,200
There.

463
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:55,200
There.

464
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,200
There.

465
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,200
There.

466
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,200
There.

467
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,200
There.

468
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,200
There.

469
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,200
There.

470
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,200
There.

471
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,200
There.

472
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,200
There.

473
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,200
There.

474
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,200
There.

475
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,200
There.

476
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,200
There.

477
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,200
There.

478
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,200
There.

479
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:11,200
There.

480
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:12,200
There.

481
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:13,200
There.

482
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:14,200
There.

483
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,200
There.

484
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:16,200
There.

485
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,200
There.

486
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,200
There.

487
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:25,200
There.

488
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,200
There.

489
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,200
There.

490
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:31,200
There.

491
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,200
There.

492
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,200
There.

493
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,200
There.

494
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,200
There.

495
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,200
There.

496
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,200
There.

497
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,200
There.

498
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:39,200
There.

499
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,200
There.

500
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,200
There.

501
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,200
There.

502
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:43,200
There.

503
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,200
There.

504
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,200
There.

505
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,200
There.

506
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:47,200
There.

507
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:55,100
Peace.

508
00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:35,420
Yeah, so they're tougher to see, but there's at least a couple rock fires that are out

509
00:34:35,420 --> 00:34:40,900
in this area here, and through our radio telemetry, most of the walleyes live right

510
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:41,900
in this bay.

511
00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:42,900
Yeah.

512
00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:48,020
There's a weed bed in about nine feet of water, where oftentimes we're out here doing

513
00:34:48,020 --> 00:34:52,900
our telemetry, that's where they'll be, that's during the day too, I'm sure they distribute

514
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:58,380
themselves around, but like we're on a rock, there's a rock bar right here.

515
00:34:58,380 --> 00:35:04,220
Yeah, we're on top of one.

516
00:35:04,220 --> 00:35:11,220
So I think some of the better trees, Ethan, will get our up here around the corner.

517
00:35:11,220 --> 00:35:17,580
I think what's interesting too, is if you look from a distance here, does it look like

518
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:21,340
there's anything different about the forest after 240 trees?

519
00:35:21,340 --> 00:35:22,340
No.

520
00:35:22,340 --> 00:35:25,580
I don't know what surprised me when we did this one too, it's like, it doesn't look different

521
00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:26,580
at all.

522
00:35:26,580 --> 00:35:27,580
Yeah.

523
00:35:27,580 --> 00:35:28,580
Yeah.

524
00:35:28,580 --> 00:35:29,580
Yeah.

525
00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:30,580
Yeah.

526
00:35:30,580 --> 00:35:31,580
Yeah.

527
00:35:31,580 --> 00:35:32,580
Yeah.

528
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:33,580
Yeah.

529
00:35:33,580 --> 00:35:34,580
Yeah.

530
00:35:34,580 --> 00:36:04,020
I'm asking questions about it, or I want all the length, weight and age data from Bass

531
00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:07,440
Thunder.

532
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,360
It looks like hopefully that's why I'm here doing an example.

533
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,520
Thank you.

534
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:18,260
And what happens is you go through this approach quite smart part of this approach to process

535
00:36:18,260 --> 00:36:28,260
Working on independent research, particularly for like our younger technicians that are just getting it started in the field. They want to embrace that experience.

536
00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:32,260
So there's not a lot of base fishing field.

537
00:36:32,260 --> 00:36:39,260
No, we've dabbled in a little bit like we've got radio transmitters like you saw going to a tiger musky yesterday.

538
00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:45,260
So we're tracking those fish year round on Escanaba. So we want to understand their winter behavior as well.

539
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:52,260
So that's a little bit of winter work. We have done some of the fish sticks work in the winter time on some lakes as part of projects.

540
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:57,260
We were going to get into some winter fisheries work by actually putting, setting gill nets underneath the ice.

541
00:36:57,260 --> 00:37:04,260
But that project kind of fizzled out the collaboration with Minnesota Duluth. It wasn't their fault or our fault.

542
00:37:04,260 --> 00:37:08,260
It just, there was some challenges with it and we never really got it off the ground.

543
00:37:08,260 --> 00:37:11,260
How do you collect it from bike nets or winter nets?

544
00:37:11,260 --> 00:37:20,260
You basically drill a hole and you send out this kind of runner that goes along the ice and you've got to intersect another hole to get the other end of it.

545
00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:24,260
And then that gill net hangs and you basically pull it out the hole.

546
00:37:24,260 --> 00:37:29,260
And you can pop in minotraps and things like that too.

547
00:37:29,260 --> 00:37:34,260
So Ethan you wanted to get maybe some GoPro or kind of still footage closer to the older stuff.

548
00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:35,260
Are we going okay?

549
00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:36,260
Perfect.

550
00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:37,260
All right.

551
00:38:07,260 --> 00:38:17,260
The winter is kind of present, what I call general fisheries ecology and management scientists that could handle just about any species.

552
00:38:17,260 --> 00:38:23,260
But we do have some specialization with Matt Mitro with his focus on like statewide trout resources.

553
00:38:23,260 --> 00:38:28,260
And then E.L.B.S.I. is a kind of a quantitative stock assessment scientist.

554
00:38:28,260 --> 00:38:33,260
So he's more trained like almost like a marine fisheries person would be.

555
00:38:33,260 --> 00:38:36,260
And he handles a lot of our Great Lakes questions.

556
00:38:36,260 --> 00:38:41,260
But these are big models, big powerful models, complex models.

557
00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:43,260
And he's got a very special skill.

558
00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:20,260
Thanks for watching.