WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:20.360 Another controversy in Wisconsin involves criminal justice and Governor Tony Evers' 00:20.360 --> 00:22.360 new commutation board. 00:22.360 --> 00:27.560 While many applaud the governor bringing back commutations after 25 years, others assail 00:27.560 --> 00:30.880 it for early release of violent criminals. 00:30.880 --> 00:35.880 The board is now reviewing those currently imprisoned looking to shorten their prison 00:35.880 --> 00:36.880 sentences. 00:36.880 --> 00:41.540 Twelve people came before the board earlier this month and more will appear in September. 00:41.540 --> 00:44.400 There are 800 applicants so far. 00:44.400 --> 00:49.840 The rules include no commutation for crimes against children, but by design people serving 00:49.840 --> 00:56.540 long sentences are eligible for commutation, including for first degree intentional homicide. 00:56.540 --> 01:02.060 They must have served at least 20 years of a life sentence, also by design a focus on 01:02.060 --> 01:07.800 juveniles, tried as adults, and sentenced to life or more than 39 years. 01:07.800 --> 01:12.700 Our next guest is former Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice and Marquette Law School professor 01:12.700 --> 01:16.060 where she was director of its Restorative Justice Center. 01:16.060 --> 01:19.500 Janine Gasky joins us now and thanks very much for being here. 01:19.500 --> 01:25.900 What do you think about commutations being reinstated in Wisconsin after 25 years? 01:25.980 --> 01:32.580 I think it's a very important move, particularly on some of these cases that, you know, people 01:32.580 --> 01:37.660 have been incarcerated for long periods of time, and I can tell you, as a former sentencing 01:37.660 --> 01:43.500 judge, you know, you want them to be reevaluated as they go through the years. 01:43.500 --> 01:50.260 And you know, I have, I have worked in the community in Milwaukee with a number of formerly 01:50.260 --> 01:55.300 incarcerated first degree murderers who are doing incredible work and were released 01:55.300 --> 01:57.500 either on parole or for other reasons. 01:57.500 --> 02:01.860 I think it's good to look at them and make the decision based on all the factors they 02:01.860 --> 02:06.620 have to consider as to whether they can shorten their sentence, but they can also make them 02:06.620 --> 02:09.660 to parole more quickly. 02:09.660 --> 02:15.100 They can adjust, they can put supervision longer, so the governor ultimately has a lot 02:15.100 --> 02:18.060 of discretion on how he handles each case. 02:18.060 --> 02:22.860 Does reducing the sentence, though, of a person convicted of first degree intentional 02:22.860 --> 02:26.900 homicide, for example, make Wisconsin soft on crime? 02:26.900 --> 02:27.900 No. 02:27.900 --> 02:30.780 I was happy for a quick answer. 02:30.780 --> 02:35.420 You know, I'll give you an example of a defendant that I worked with. 02:35.420 --> 02:41.140 There was a woman who had been active in the community, had done all sorts of good work, 02:41.140 --> 02:42.780 no prior record. 02:42.780 --> 02:49.980 She had a very challenging domestic situation, and she wound up murdering her husband. 02:49.980 --> 02:54.100 You know, the likelihood that this woman was ever going to commit another homicide or 02:54.100 --> 03:01.260 bioinact was really small, and yet she served, she stayed in prison until the day she died. 03:01.260 --> 03:03.060 And I mean, that's just an example. 03:03.060 --> 03:07.020 There's certainly other, you know, a lot of these defendants that they're looking at 03:07.020 --> 03:12.580 are people who committed these crimes when they're 14, 15, 16 years old, and you look 03:12.580 --> 03:15.500 at them 20 years later, and they're different people. 03:15.500 --> 03:20.540 And the one thing I like to emphasize with people is the people that are incarcerated 03:20.540 --> 03:23.660 are supervised 24 hours a day. 03:23.660 --> 03:29.340 So for 20 years, 24 hours a day, they've been observed, and there's a good track record 03:29.340 --> 03:34.140 of how they're doing and whether or not they continue to pose a risk for the community. 03:34.140 --> 03:37.860 So you are involved in restorative justice in a big way. 03:37.860 --> 03:38.860 What is that? 03:39.860 --> 03:48.500 Well, it is a harm victim-focused process, in particular, relevant to this issue is that 03:48.500 --> 03:53.700 victims and survivors who are interested in having a face-to-face meeting with the perpetrator 03:53.700 --> 03:58.340 of their crime, and we did a lot of homicides. 03:58.340 --> 04:03.020 We worked with them for about a year and a half, both sides, and then they looked at 04:03.020 --> 04:04.020 them have a conversation. 04:04.020 --> 04:10.140 It's an incredibly healing process for those survivors who are interested in it, and it's 04:10.140 --> 04:12.260 really an amazing, amazing process. 04:12.260 --> 04:16.780 And those questions that victims have finally can get answered. 04:16.780 --> 04:21.020 But does commuting ascends undermine justice for victims of crime? 04:21.020 --> 04:26.100 No, and this process allows the voice of the victim there. 04:26.100 --> 04:27.820 So the victims are notified. 04:27.820 --> 04:33.420 Now a lot of survivors, 20 years later, are either no longer in contact with corrections 04:33.420 --> 04:38.140 or have moved on, but there are survivors, surviving family members who are interested. 04:38.140 --> 04:41.300 They have a voice, and that's supposed to be consideration. 04:41.300 --> 04:45.980 In addition, I see that on the commission itself, there are victim advocates, people 04:45.980 --> 04:50.140 who are expert in trauma and expert in victims' issues. 04:50.140 --> 04:54.220 There's a former police officer, a poor prosecutor. 04:54.220 --> 04:59.660 So I have no doubt that that will be a factor in looking at whether or not to have someone 04:59.660 --> 05:05.820 released, but it doesn't mean that the victim will have the sole say over the individual. 05:05.820 --> 05:11.580 So the governor's executive order on commutation prioritizes youth offenders sentenced to life 05:11.580 --> 05:12.580 in prison. 05:12.580 --> 05:16.140 Why are juveniles carved out in this way? 05:16.140 --> 05:20.100 Because we have learned, through the years that I've learned since I was on the bench, 05:20.100 --> 05:23.540 the whole development of the juvenile brain and how that changes. 05:23.540 --> 05:29.300 And I guess I should have known that I was a school teacher, but how kids think and 05:29.300 --> 05:32.420 approach things is very different. 05:32.420 --> 05:36.700 And if you wait 20 years and take a look at them, they are usually different people. 05:36.700 --> 05:41.340 One of the individuals that I have encountered in the community was someone I sentenced for 05:41.340 --> 05:43.860 first degree murder at age 14. 05:43.860 --> 05:46.020 It was an awful murder. 05:46.020 --> 05:51.540 And I remember sitting as a jobs thinking, how long do I set the parole of a bill and 05:51.540 --> 05:57.740 date on this kid, because he's salvageable, is he always going to be violent? 05:57.740 --> 06:00.540 And I gave him a pretty significant parole eligibility date. 06:00.540 --> 06:02.300 Well, he's out in the community now. 06:02.300 --> 06:03.780 He actually contacted me. 06:03.780 --> 06:05.820 He served decades. 06:05.820 --> 06:10.740 And he is doing such incredible work with the Medical College of Wisconsin and violence 06:10.740 --> 06:12.820 interruption in the community. 06:12.820 --> 06:18.980 And it was just the most wonderful day for me to meet him and see how different he is 06:18.980 --> 06:23.340 than the young kid that sat in front of me, who killed another kid. 06:23.340 --> 06:24.340 Janine Lieske. 06:24.340 --> 06:25.340 Thanks very much. 06:25.340 --> 06:26.340 Thanks for your thoughts. 06:26.500 --> 06:27.340 You're welcome. 06:32.340 --> 06:33.340 It's so... 06:33.340 --> 06:34.340 Sorry, Rachel. 06:34.340 --> 06:35.340 I talk a lot. 06:35.340 --> 06:36.340 No, you were great. 06:36.340 --> 06:43.340 It was perfect and you had really salient examples and I really appreciate it. 06:43.340 --> 06:44.340 Yeah, it's amazing. 06:44.340 --> 06:47.340 He asked me to go out to lunch with this guy. 06:47.340 --> 06:49.340 I didn't remember his name. 06:49.340 --> 06:53.340 And all of a sudden, he's telling me this story. 06:53.340 --> 06:54.340 What did you send us him to? 06:54.340 --> 06:55.340 Do you remember? 06:56.340 --> 06:57.340 Oh, yeah. 06:57.340 --> 06:59.340 Oh, I think it was likely imprisonment. 06:59.340 --> 07:03.340 I think it was 30 years of vulnerability. 07:03.340 --> 07:04.340 And he got... 07:04.340 --> 07:05.340 Oh, maybe it was 25. 07:05.340 --> 07:07.340 But he got out shortly after that. 07:07.340 --> 07:09.340 It was a pro-boy that was letting people out. 07:09.340 --> 07:16.340 You know, actually, there was a whole big article in the Seven Day Adventist magazine about 07:16.340 --> 07:21.340 this whole case because it was just, for me, it was such an incredible experience. 07:21.340 --> 07:26.340 But halfway through lunch, all of a sudden, I recognized the crime. 07:26.340 --> 07:30.340 And he wanted to ask me why I sent and sent to the sentence. 07:30.340 --> 07:31.340 He never did. 07:31.340 --> 07:37.340 But he also wanted to tell me that I had sent to him, your life is not over, you know, 07:37.340 --> 07:39.340 and that you might have an opportunity to go out. 07:39.340 --> 07:41.340 And he kind of lived with that. 07:41.340 --> 07:44.340 And then he took restorative justice while he was in prison. 07:44.340 --> 07:47.340 So, you know, amazing things. 07:48.340 --> 07:52.340 That's one of the reasons I'm here on an anti-death penalty work, you know, just never know. 07:52.340 --> 07:53.340 Do you remember? 07:53.340 --> 07:54.340 Oh, I'm sure you do. 07:54.340 --> 07:55.340 This person's name? 07:55.340 --> 07:57.340 Yeah, let me think. 07:57.340 --> 07:58.340 Do I take her? 07:58.340 --> 08:00.340 James Price. 08:00.340 --> 08:04.340 How old is he now? 08:04.340 --> 08:08.340 He is in his, I think, his late 40s. 08:08.340 --> 08:09.340 Okay. 08:09.340 --> 08:10.340 All right. 08:10.340 --> 08:12.340 That would be a great story to tell. 08:12.340 --> 08:13.340 Oh, it is. 08:13.340 --> 08:20.340 Well, if you email me, I'll send you the link to the story on this in that magazine. 08:20.340 --> 08:22.340 It's up for a national award. 08:22.340 --> 08:25.340 And they really took pictures of both of us and interviewed us. 08:25.340 --> 08:26.340 So, I'll send that to you. 08:26.340 --> 08:27.340 And you see these together. 08:27.340 --> 08:28.340 Hold it. 08:28.340 --> 08:29.340 Oh, good. 08:29.340 --> 08:30.340 Yeah. 08:30.340 --> 08:31.340 All right. 08:31.340 --> 08:32.340 Thank you. 08:32.340 --> 08:33.340 Thank you so much. 08:33.340 --> 08:34.340 You're welcome. 08:34.340 --> 08:35.340 All right. 08:35.340 --> 08:36.340 Have a good weekend. 08:36.340 --> 08:37.340 Bye-bye. 08:37.340 --> 08:38.340 You too.