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Another controversy in Wisconsin involves criminal justice and Governor Tony Evers'

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new commutation board.

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While many applaud the governor bringing back commutations after 25 years, others assail

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it for early release of violent criminals.

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The board is now reviewing those currently imprisoned looking to shorten their prison

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sentences.

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Twelve people came before the board earlier this month and more will appear in September.

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There are 800 applicants so far.

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The rules include no commutation for crimes against children, but by design people serving

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long sentences are eligible for commutation, including for first degree intentional homicide.

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They must have served at least 20 years of a life sentence, also by design a focus on

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juveniles, tried as adults, and sentenced to life or more than 39 years.

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Our next guest is former Wisconsin Supreme Court Justice and Marquette Law School professor

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where she was director of its Restorative Justice Center.

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Janine Gasky joins us now and thanks very much for being here.

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What do you think about commutations being reinstated in Wisconsin after 25 years?

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I think it's a very important move, particularly on some of these cases that, you know, people

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have been incarcerated for long periods of time, and I can tell you, as a former sentencing

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judge, you know, you want them to be reevaluated as they go through the years.

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And you know, I have, I have worked in the community in Milwaukee with a number of formerly

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incarcerated first degree murderers who are doing incredible work and were released

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either on parole or for other reasons.

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I think it's good to look at them and make the decision based on all the factors they

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have to consider as to whether they can shorten their sentence, but they can also make them

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to parole more quickly.

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They can adjust, they can put supervision longer, so the governor ultimately has a lot

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of discretion on how he handles each case.

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Does reducing the sentence, though, of a person convicted of first degree intentional

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homicide, for example, make Wisconsin soft on crime?

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No.

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I was happy for a quick answer.

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You know, I'll give you an example of a defendant that I worked with.

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There was a woman who had been active in the community, had done all sorts of good work,

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no prior record.

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She had a very challenging domestic situation, and she wound up murdering her husband.

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You know, the likelihood that this woman was ever going to commit another homicide or

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bioinact was really small, and yet she served, she stayed in prison until the day she died.

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And I mean, that's just an example.

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There's certainly other, you know, a lot of these defendants that they're looking at

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are people who committed these crimes when they're 14, 15, 16 years old, and you look

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at them 20 years later, and they're different people.

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And the one thing I like to emphasize with people is the people that are incarcerated

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are supervised 24 hours a day.

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So for 20 years, 24 hours a day, they've been observed, and there's a good track record

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of how they're doing and whether or not they continue to pose a risk for the community.

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So you are involved in restorative justice in a big way.

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What is that?

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Well, it is a harm victim-focused process, in particular, relevant to this issue is that

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victims and survivors who are interested in having a face-to-face meeting with the perpetrator

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of their crime, and we did a lot of homicides.

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We worked with them for about a year and a half, both sides, and then they looked at

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them have a conversation.

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It's an incredibly healing process for those survivors who are interested in it, and it's

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really an amazing, amazing process.

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And those questions that victims have finally can get answered.

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But does commuting ascends undermine justice for victims of crime?

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No, and this process allows the voice of the victim there.

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So the victims are notified.

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Now a lot of survivors, 20 years later, are either no longer in contact with corrections

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or have moved on, but there are survivors, surviving family members who are interested.

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They have a voice, and that's supposed to be consideration.

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In addition, I see that on the commission itself, there are victim advocates, people

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who are expert in trauma and expert in victims' issues.

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There's a former police officer, a poor prosecutor.

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So I have no doubt that that will be a factor in looking at whether or not to have someone

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released, but it doesn't mean that the victim will have the sole say over the individual.

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So the governor's executive order on commutation prioritizes youth offenders sentenced to life

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in prison.

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Why are juveniles carved out in this way?

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Because we have learned, through the years that I've learned since I was on the bench,

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the whole development of the juvenile brain and how that changes.

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And I guess I should have known that I was a school teacher, but how kids think and

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approach things is very different.

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And if you wait 20 years and take a look at them, they are usually different people.

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One of the individuals that I have encountered in the community was someone I sentenced for

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first degree murder at age 14.

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It was an awful murder.

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And I remember sitting as a jobs thinking, how long do I set the parole of a bill and

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date on this kid, because he's salvageable, is he always going to be violent?

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And I gave him a pretty significant parole eligibility date.

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Well, he's out in the community now.

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He actually contacted me.

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He served decades.

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And he is doing such incredible work with the Medical College of Wisconsin and violence

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interruption in the community.

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And it was just the most wonderful day for me to meet him and see how different he is

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than the young kid that sat in front of me, who killed another kid.

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Janine Lieske.

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Thanks very much.

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Thanks for your thoughts.

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You're welcome.

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It's so...

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Sorry, Rachel.

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I talk a lot.

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No, you were great.

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It was perfect and you had really salient examples and I really appreciate it.

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Yeah, it's amazing.

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He asked me to go out to lunch with this guy.

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I didn't remember his name.

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And all of a sudden, he's telling me this story.

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What did you send us him to?

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Do you remember?

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Oh, yeah.

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Oh, I think it was likely imprisonment.

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I think it was 30 years of vulnerability.

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And he got...

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Oh, maybe it was 25.

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But he got out shortly after that.

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It was a pro-boy that was letting people out.

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You know, actually, there was a whole big article in the Seven Day Adventist magazine about

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this whole case because it was just, for me, it was such an incredible experience.

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But halfway through lunch, all of a sudden, I recognized the crime.

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And he wanted to ask me why I sent and sent to the sentence.

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He never did.

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But he also wanted to tell me that I had sent to him, your life is not over, you know,

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and that you might have an opportunity to go out.

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And he kind of lived with that.

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And then he took restorative justice while he was in prison.

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So, you know, amazing things.

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That's one of the reasons I'm here on an anti-death penalty work, you know, just never know.

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Do you remember?

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Oh, I'm sure you do.

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This person's name?

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Yeah, let me think.

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Do I take her?

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James Price.

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How old is he now?

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He is in his, I think, his late 40s.

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Okay.

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All right.

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That would be a great story to tell.

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Oh, it is.

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Well, if you email me, I'll send you the link to the story on this in that magazine.

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It's up for a national award.

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And they really took pictures of both of us and interviewed us.

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So, I'll send that to you.

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And you see these together.

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Hold it.

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Oh, good.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Thank you.

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Thank you so much.

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You're welcome.

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All right.

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Have a good weekend.

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Bye-bye.

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You too.