1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,600
And so do you prefer Charles or Charlie

2
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,200
for how we refer to you in the program?

3
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:11,480
So public presentation, I usually refer to myself as Charles.

4
00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:14,120
It's confusing because I always introduce myself as Charlie.

5
00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:15,840
But Charles is consistent.

6
00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,560
That's what people will find in other news sources

7
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,240
and on our websites and stuff.

8
00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:22,400
Yeah, we get that all the time.

9
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,720
It's why I pay close attention.

10
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:35,280
So and then pronunciation, how do you pronounce your last name?

11
00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,760
So it's Charles Carlin, just like the comedian.

12
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,160
OK, perfect.

13
00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:41,840
All right, are you ready to go?

14
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,040
Yeah, go ahead.

15
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,640
OK.

16
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,400
So just to start, what was your reaction

17
00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,880
when lawmakers failed to reauthorize this program?

18
00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,120
I think the failure to reauthorize Nils Nelson

19
00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,400
was just such an unforced error on the part of lawmakers.

20
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:05,320
There was plenty of political will on both sides of the aisle.

21
00:01:05,320 --> 00:01:10,280
The support from voters is just absolute.

22
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,400
I mean, you can't have an issue that gets broader public support.

23
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:18,480
And so it was an unnecessary victim of partisanship

24
00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,200
in the Capitol.

25
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,200
So how expansive was the program and how important was it

26
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,200
to Wisconsin conservation efforts?

27
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:31,200
So I think the Wisconsin landscape

28
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,200
and the outdoor recreation infrastructure

29
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,200
that we have in Wisconsin simply wouldn't be here today

30
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,200
without the successes of the Nils Nelson stewardship program.

31
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,200
The program has been operating for over 35 years,

32
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,200
has helped us permanently protect more than 650,000 acres

33
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:53,200
of land, most of which is open for public recreation,

34
00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,200
getting out there bird watching, going hunting,

35
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,200
going for a hike with your family.

36
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,200
And every single neighborhood in the state

37
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,200
has been touched by Nils Nelson.

38
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:04,200
It's not an exaggeration.

39
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,200
You know, more than 90% of households

40
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,200
are within a mile of a Nils Nelson investment.

41
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,200
So these are the trails that we walk and bike on,

42
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,200
the beach runs where we go swimming, the weed harvesters

43
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,200
that help keep our lakes clean, the playground equipment

44
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,200
that our kids play on at local parks,

45
00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:26,200
all of this is made possible by the Nils Nelson stewardship program.

46
00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,200
That being said, the program has really been whittled away

47
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,200
over the last 15 years or so.

48
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,200
That's why we see this incredible maintenance backlog

49
00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,200
on state properties.

50
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,200
And so it's a, it's a crisis and it's sort of an unnecessary

51
00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,200
catastrophe for funding to run out.

52
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,200
And at the same time, the problems have been mounting for a while.

53
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:53,200
And so is the backlog of maintenance and those other items

54
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:58,200
you referenced, part of why it failed to be reauthorized?

55
00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:04,200
No, the failure to reauthorize the program is petty partisan politics.

56
00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,200
So not to drag you and your viewers through the weeds too much,

57
00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,200
but there used to be a law on the books that would allow a single

58
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,200
anonymous member of a legislative committee to block almost

59
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,200
any Nils Nelson project from moving forward.

60
00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,200
This is after the legislature had appropriated money for the program.

61
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,200
After the DNR had carefully evaluated all the grants that came in

62
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,200
and chose to award funds.

63
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,200
Then you could have this single anonymous legislator step in at

64
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:36,200
the last moment and say, nope, we're not moving forward.

65
00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,200
There was no way for the public to know who it was, why it happened.

66
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,200
And there was no mechanism to get a project unstuck.

67
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,200
So if that sounds crazy, it's because it was.

68
00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,200
And the Wisconsin Supreme Court agreed and ruled six to one.

69
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,200
Hey, this is unconstitutional and can't happen.

70
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,200
So that legislative veto went away.

71
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,200
And then what we saw was a very small number of lawmakers,

72
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:06,200
mostly senators on the Republican side say.

73
00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,200
We're upset because we lost this power to anonymously block projects.

74
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,200
And therefore, instead of finding a new path forward through policy,

75
00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,200
we'll simply zero out funding for the program.

76
00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,200
Wow. So.

77
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,200
What happens to existing.

78
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,200
Nils Nelson investments land.

79
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,200
And future projects.

80
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,200
So land that has been protected with Nils Nelson is permanently protected.

81
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,200
Nothing is going to undo that.

82
00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:40,200
What it means, however, moving forward is if we need a new segment of the ice age

83
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:45,200
trail or the North Country trail, there's no state money to make that happen.

84
00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,200
If a community is growing and needs a new neighborhood park,

85
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,200
the Nils Nelson stewardship program is what used to provide the funds.

86
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,200
Funding for that. And so that works stops.

87
00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,200
We have no other significant source of funding for acquiring.

88
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,200
Parkland conservation areas, recreation areas in the state.

89
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:10,200
And then all of that stuff that we need to get out and enjoy the places that make Wisconsin special.

90
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,200
So a trailhead to park your car at a kiosk that shows you the map of where you're going to go walk.

91
00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,200
The boat launch to put your kayak or your fishing boat in the water.

92
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,200
As that stuff ages and needs to be repaired.

93
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,200
We have now shot ourselves in the foot and taken away.

94
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:33,200
Really our only significant source of funding to do that to take care of that infrastructure.

95
00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,200
And so how does Wisconsin's.

96
00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,200
Investment at least with this project and overall.

97
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,200
In conservation, compare to other states, both with Nils Nelson and now without it.

98
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:45,200
Yeah.

99
00:05:45,200 --> 00:06:02,200
So for a long time, Wisconsin was really the envy of the nation because when Nils Nelson was founded in 1989.

100
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,200
And remember, this was a real bipartisan success.

101
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:13,200
It was an effort led by legislative Democrats signed into law by Governor Tommy Thompson, a prominent Republican.

102
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:23,200
Governor Thompson then went on to brag over and over again about how his administration protected more land than any other governor's administration in Wisconsin history.

103
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:33,200
And we had more financial resources to protect our land and water and to help people get outside than most other states.

104
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:42,200
Starting in 2011 or so, that story really changed and we saw the state start to significantly pair back.

105
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:52,200
Nils Nelson funding so that really the program became kind of a shadow of itself, while our neighbors really supercharged their efforts.

106
00:06:52,200 --> 00:07:03,200
So in Minnesota, they have what they call their legacy amendment that is putting hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars into natural resources and outdoor recreation.

107
00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:19,200
And there are very red states like Georgia, Florida, Missouri, Texas are all investing hundreds of millions of dollars in conservation and outdoor recreation, because this is a growing economy.

108
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,200
It's an important part of our economic foundation.

109
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:32,200
Because as the climate changes, it becomes more and more important to make those investments in natural spaces like wetlands that can protect our communities.

110
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,200
So our neighbors, they've got their foot on the gas and Wisconsin.

111
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:44,200
We just turned the engine off.

112
00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:55,200
I think you're muted there. Sorry. I read that somewhere that today, even with Nils Nelson, as it was.

113
00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:07,200
Wisconsin is last in conservation and investment. And so without it, we're even worse off than last. Is that true.

114
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:22,200
The metric that you're referring to is Wisconsin ranks dead last in the nation in our investment in our state parks and state parks is one important area where Nils Nelson provides funds.

115
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:39,200
And so what we've got us there is that the legislature a number of years ago took away all tax funding support for the state parks and tried to make them funded exclusively by user fees those stickers we all put on our windshields to get into the state

116
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:50,200
It just doesn't work. That's not actually enough money to take care of both the built infrastructure and all of the natural places that are that are out there.

117
00:08:50,200 --> 00:09:06,200
So I think that's one really striking example of how as a state, we've really walked away from our commitment to caring for, you know, what really makes Wisconsin special, which is all of these remarkable outdoor places.

118
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:08,200
So,

119
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:27,200
Was this a lot of money? Was it the financial aspect that kind of killed it and the ability to veto a project, or was it just the ability to veto a specific project in what it was trying to achieve.

120
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:41,200
It's really not for a lack of funds. So, you know, as we all know, Wisconsin is sitting on a very healthy surplus right now. We've got about two and a half billion extra dollars sitting in the bank.

121
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:52,200
Knowles Nelson was only had about $33 million a year appropriated to it. And when I said earlier that it's really become a shadow of itself.

122
00:09:52,200 --> 00:10:09,200
Go back to 2007 2008. We had three times as much money allocated to the program in nominal dollars. And then if you account for inflation to actually have that kind of purchasing power today, we would be having to put something like $200 million a year towards

123
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,200
that.

124
00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:14,200
So, you know, we have a lot of money.

125
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,200
We have that money. It's a matter of priorities. What we choose to say is is important.

126
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:30,200
You'll occasionally hear a legislator who's critical of the program say, we're just running up the state's credit card by making these Knowles Nelson investments and that's fiscally irresponsible.

127
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,200
So, you know, we have a lot of money.

128
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,200
We have a lot of money.

129
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:42,200
We have a lot of money right now with the money that we dedicate each year as well as debt service payments.

130
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,200
Knowles Nelson costs each Wisconsin resident about $11.

131
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:51,200
So I took my kid to fish fry at Culver's the other week. And I think it was about $15 each.

132
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,200
This is the value we can afford.

133
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:58,200
Is there still a chance that lawmakers will reauthorize.

134
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:09,200
So, you know, it doesn't have to be Knowles Nelson is done forever. So what's happened is the money has run out, but the program stays on the books. So all of the laws that guided are there.

135
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,200
The DNR staff who administer the program are still there.

136
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:20,200
What we need is for the legislature to come back and invest money in the program so that it can get moving again.

137
00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:39,200
And, you know, what we've seen is as the program officially lapsed on June 30th and candidates and legislators, mostly on the Democratic side, have been saying, this is a top priority for us to come back and get the program funded that we're

138
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,200
going to fix this come January, come the 2027 state budget.

139
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:57,200
And I certainly believe that that intention is there. I think the responsibility for all of us as Wisconsin residents and voters is to be asking those very direct questions of our candidates and legislators.

140
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:03,200
Are you going to fix Knowles Nelson, you're going to make sure that we can acquire more conservation land in the future.

141
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:18,200
Because I do think that our November elections are going to have really real consequences for what kind of latitude the legislature has to fund Knowles Nelson again and what priorities they'll choose.

142
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:25,200
There anything else you want to add, something that's important for people to know.

143
00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:39,200
And then the last thing that I would say is that, you know, knows Nelson really does touch us all. So, knows Nelson funds our forest products industry that holds the working forest so the north woods together.

144
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,200
It supports our state parks. If you go visit Devil's Lake.

145
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:48,200
You just added 200 acres to Devil's Lake this year through a Knowles Nelson investment.

146
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:54,200
Or if you live in an urban area, and you're a bike commuter so you ride the cap city trail to work in Madison.

147
00:12:54,200 --> 00:13:00,200
That's there because of the stewardship program. So it has done so much good for us.

148
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:14,200
It is probably the least controversial investment that the state makes according to the public. So, you know, let's just help our legislators like get it together, get back on their feet and get this thing funded again.

149
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,200
All right, that's all I have for you.

150
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,200
So, just to make sure we have it all correct.

151
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,200
Yeah, your title with gathering waters.

152
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,200
That's a strategy officer.

153
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,200
Okay. And, um, you are.

154
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:38,200
So we have a graphic that goes up with your name and we put a locator on it.

155
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:42,200
So where will should we say you're joining us from?

156
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:48,200
Oh, I am in northern Langley County right now.

157
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,200
I'm on a tiny little lake called Duck Lake, sort of on the Langley County Langley to know.

158
00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,200
Oh, night at county line.

159
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:57,200
Okay.

160
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:02,200
Is there like a sit town that we can reference.

161
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,200
Yeah, the closest town is Summit Lake Wisconsin.

162
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,200
Okay.

163
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,200
And then any questions that you have for me.

164
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,200
I think you said this was going to air tomorrow. Is that right?

165
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:23,200
That's correct. So our program air statewide at 730 on Fridays.

166
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,200
So this will be the whole interview won't be used.

167
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:33,200
We'll use some excerpts and then we'll probably use additional pieces on our website.

168
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,200
And so I can send you the links once they're up on our website,

169
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,200
but you can also catch it live tomorrow night.

170
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,200
Okay.

171
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,200
Great.

172
00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,200
And I guess last question. Are.

173
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:53,200
Are you interviewing any policymakers, you know, about this story as well?

174
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,200
Or will it be just kind of me speaking about knows Nelson or.

175
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,200
It'll, it'll just be this.

176
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,200
I might do something more on it in the future, especially.

177
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,200
We're doing a lot of election coverage. That's kind of issue based.

178
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,200
So it's possible we'll touch on this, but this is just to kind of.

179
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,200
We haven't covered knows Nelson as this has been progressing.

180
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:21,200
And so this is just to give viewers an opportunity to understand what it is.

181
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:28,200
What's happening and what is going to be possible in the future.

182
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,200
Well, sounds good. Well, thank you very much for reaching out.

183
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,200
And I really appreciate you all covering this story. I think it's an important one.

184
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,200
Yeah. Thanks for making time. I think we interrupted a holiday.

185
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,200
No problem.

186
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,200
All right. Take care. All right. Yeah. Have a great week.

187
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,200
You too. Bye.