And so do you prefer Charles or Charlie
for how we refer to you in the program?
So public presentation, I usually refer to myself as Charles.
It's confusing because I always introduce myself as Charlie.
But Charles is consistent.
That's what people will find in other news sources
and on our websites and stuff.
Yeah, we get that all the time.
It's why I pay close attention.
So and then pronunciation, how do you pronounce your last name?
So it's Charles Carlin, just like the comedian.
OK, perfect.
All right, are you ready to go?
Yeah, go ahead.
OK.
So just to start, what was your reaction
when lawmakers failed to reauthorize this program?
I think the failure to reauthorize Nils Nelson
was just such an unforced error on the part of lawmakers.
There was plenty of political will on both sides of the aisle.
The support from voters is just absolute.
I mean, you can't have an issue that gets broader public support.
And so it was an unnecessary victim of partisanship
in the Capitol.
So how expansive was the program and how important was it
to Wisconsin conservation efforts?
So I think the Wisconsin landscape
and the outdoor recreation infrastructure
that we have in Wisconsin simply wouldn't be here today
without the successes of the Nils Nelson stewardship program.
The program has been operating for over 35 years,
has helped us permanently protect more than 650,000 acres
of land, most of which is open for public recreation,
getting out there bird watching, going hunting,
going for a hike with your family.
And every single neighborhood in the state
has been touched by Nils Nelson.
It's not an exaggeration.
You know, more than 90% of households
are within a mile of a Nils Nelson investment.
So these are the trails that we walk and bike on,
the beach runs where we go swimming, the weed harvesters
that help keep our lakes clean, the playground equipment
that our kids play on at local parks,
all of this is made possible by the Nils Nelson stewardship program.
That being said, the program has really been whittled away
over the last 15 years or so.
That's why we see this incredible maintenance backlog
on state properties.
And so it's a, it's a crisis and it's sort of an unnecessary
catastrophe for funding to run out.
And at the same time, the problems have been mounting for a while.
And so is the backlog of maintenance and those other items
you referenced, part of why it failed to be reauthorized?
No, the failure to reauthorize the program is petty partisan politics.
So not to drag you and your viewers through the weeds too much,
but there used to be a law on the books that would allow a single
anonymous member of a legislative committee to block almost
any Nils Nelson project from moving forward.
This is after the legislature had appropriated money for the program.
After the DNR had carefully evaluated all the grants that came in
and chose to award funds.
Then you could have this single anonymous legislator step in at
the last moment and say, nope, we're not moving forward.
There was no way for the public to know who it was, why it happened.
And there was no mechanism to get a project unstuck.
So if that sounds crazy, it's because it was.
And the Wisconsin Supreme Court agreed and ruled six to one.
Hey, this is unconstitutional and can't happen.
So that legislative veto went away.
And then what we saw was a very small number of lawmakers,
mostly senators on the Republican side say.
We're upset because we lost this power to anonymously block projects.
And therefore, instead of finding a new path forward through policy,
we'll simply zero out funding for the program.
Wow. So.
What happens to existing.
Nils Nelson investments land.
And future projects.
So land that has been protected with Nils Nelson is permanently protected.
Nothing is going to undo that.
What it means, however, moving forward is if we need a new segment of the ice age
trail or the North Country trail, there's no state money to make that happen.
If a community is growing and needs a new neighborhood park,
the Nils Nelson stewardship program is what used to provide the funds.
Funding for that. And so that works stops.
We have no other significant source of funding for acquiring.
Parkland conservation areas, recreation areas in the state.
And then all of that stuff that we need to get out and enjoy the places that make Wisconsin special.
So a trailhead to park your car at a kiosk that shows you the map of where you're going to go walk.
The boat launch to put your kayak or your fishing boat in the water.
As that stuff ages and needs to be repaired.
We have now shot ourselves in the foot and taken away.
Really our only significant source of funding to do that to take care of that infrastructure.
And so how does Wisconsin's.
Investment at least with this project and overall.
In conservation, compare to other states, both with Nils Nelson and now without it.
Yeah.
So for a long time, Wisconsin was really the envy of the nation because when Nils Nelson was founded in 1989.
And remember, this was a real bipartisan success.
It was an effort led by legislative Democrats signed into law by Governor Tommy Thompson, a prominent Republican.
Governor Thompson then went on to brag over and over again about how his administration protected more land than any other governor's administration in Wisconsin history.
And we had more financial resources to protect our land and water and to help people get outside than most other states.
Starting in 2011 or so, that story really changed and we saw the state start to significantly pair back.
Nils Nelson funding so that really the program became kind of a shadow of itself, while our neighbors really supercharged their efforts.
So in Minnesota, they have what they call their legacy amendment that is putting hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars into natural resources and outdoor recreation.
And there are very red states like Georgia, Florida, Missouri, Texas are all investing hundreds of millions of dollars in conservation and outdoor recreation, because this is a growing economy.
It's an important part of our economic foundation.
Because as the climate changes, it becomes more and more important to make those investments in natural spaces like wetlands that can protect our communities.
So our neighbors, they've got their foot on the gas and Wisconsin.
We just turned the engine off.
I think you're muted there. Sorry. I read that somewhere that today, even with Nils Nelson, as it was.
Wisconsin is last in conservation and investment. And so without it, we're even worse off than last. Is that true.
The metric that you're referring to is Wisconsin ranks dead last in the nation in our investment in our state parks and state parks is one important area where Nils Nelson provides funds.
And so what we've got us there is that the legislature a number of years ago took away all tax funding support for the state parks and tried to make them funded exclusively by user fees those stickers we all put on our windshields to get into the state
It just doesn't work. That's not actually enough money to take care of both the built infrastructure and all of the natural places that are that are out there.
So I think that's one really striking example of how as a state, we've really walked away from our commitment to caring for, you know, what really makes Wisconsin special, which is all of these remarkable outdoor places.
So,
Was this a lot of money? Was it the financial aspect that kind of killed it and the ability to veto a project, or was it just the ability to veto a specific project in what it was trying to achieve.
It's really not for a lack of funds. So, you know, as we all know, Wisconsin is sitting on a very healthy surplus right now. We've got about two and a half billion extra dollars sitting in the bank.
Knowles Nelson was only had about $33 million a year appropriated to it. And when I said earlier that it's really become a shadow of itself.
Go back to 2007 2008. We had three times as much money allocated to the program in nominal dollars. And then if you account for inflation to actually have that kind of purchasing power today, we would be having to put something like $200 million a year towards
that.
So, you know, we have a lot of money.
We have that money. It's a matter of priorities. What we choose to say is is important.
You'll occasionally hear a legislator who's critical of the program say, we're just running up the state's credit card by making these Knowles Nelson investments and that's fiscally irresponsible.
So, you know, we have a lot of money.
We have a lot of money.
We have a lot of money right now with the money that we dedicate each year as well as debt service payments.
Knowles Nelson costs each Wisconsin resident about $11.
So I took my kid to fish fry at Culver's the other week. And I think it was about $15 each.
This is the value we can afford.
Is there still a chance that lawmakers will reauthorize.
So, you know, it doesn't have to be Knowles Nelson is done forever. So what's happened is the money has run out, but the program stays on the books. So all of the laws that guided are there.
The DNR staff who administer the program are still there.
What we need is for the legislature to come back and invest money in the program so that it can get moving again.
And, you know, what we've seen is as the program officially lapsed on June 30th and candidates and legislators, mostly on the Democratic side, have been saying, this is a top priority for us to come back and get the program funded that we're
going to fix this come January, come the 2027 state budget.
And I certainly believe that that intention is there. I think the responsibility for all of us as Wisconsin residents and voters is to be asking those very direct questions of our candidates and legislators.
Are you going to fix Knowles Nelson, you're going to make sure that we can acquire more conservation land in the future.
Because I do think that our November elections are going to have really real consequences for what kind of latitude the legislature has to fund Knowles Nelson again and what priorities they'll choose.
There anything else you want to add, something that's important for people to know.
And then the last thing that I would say is that, you know, knows Nelson really does touch us all. So, knows Nelson funds our forest products industry that holds the working forest so the north woods together.
It supports our state parks. If you go visit Devil's Lake.
You just added 200 acres to Devil's Lake this year through a Knowles Nelson investment.
Or if you live in an urban area, and you're a bike commuter so you ride the cap city trail to work in Madison.
That's there because of the stewardship program. So it has done so much good for us.
It is probably the least controversial investment that the state makes according to the public. So, you know, let's just help our legislators like get it together, get back on their feet and get this thing funded again.
All right, that's all I have for you.
So, just to make sure we have it all correct.
Yeah, your title with gathering waters.
That's a strategy officer.
Okay. And, um, you are.
So we have a graphic that goes up with your name and we put a locator on it.
So where will should we say you're joining us from?
Oh, I am in northern Langley County right now.
I'm on a tiny little lake called Duck Lake, sort of on the Langley County Langley to know.
Oh, night at county line.
Okay.
Is there like a sit town that we can reference.
Yeah, the closest town is Summit Lake Wisconsin.
Okay.
And then any questions that you have for me.
I think you said this was going to air tomorrow. Is that right?
That's correct. So our program air statewide at 730 on Fridays.
So this will be the whole interview won't be used.
We'll use some excerpts and then we'll probably use additional pieces on our website.
And so I can send you the links once they're up on our website,
but you can also catch it live tomorrow night.
Okay.
Great.
And I guess last question. Are.
Are you interviewing any policymakers, you know, about this story as well?
Or will it be just kind of me speaking about knows Nelson or.
It'll, it'll just be this.
I might do something more on it in the future, especially.
We're doing a lot of election coverage. That's kind of issue based.
So it's possible we'll touch on this, but this is just to kind of.
We haven't covered knows Nelson as this has been progressing.
And so this is just to give viewers an opportunity to understand what it is.
What's happening and what is going to be possible in the future.
Well, sounds good. Well, thank you very much for reaching out.
And I really appreciate you all covering this story. I think it's an important one.
Yeah. Thanks for making time. I think we interrupted a holiday.
No problem.
All right. Take care. All right. Yeah. Have a great week.
You too. Bye.