1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000 You 2 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,000 You 3 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,000 You 4 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,000 Here to discuss the case is a member of Sarsour's legal team. 5 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,000 Sam Cole, an attorney with the ACLU of Illinois, who is also a former immigration judge. 6 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,000 Sam, thanks for joining us. 7 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Thanks for having me. 8 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:42,000 You're familiar with the arguments raised by the Trump administration against Sarsour. 9 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:49,000 The Secretary of State himself said that he posed an adverse consequence to foreign policy considerations. 10 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Were there grounds to arrest and detain him? 11 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,000 No, absolutely not. 12 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Mr. Sarsour has been an upstanding person in the United States since he came here over 30 years ago. 13 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:11,000 He is a grandfather of nine U.S. citizen kids and has had absolutely no trouble in the United States. 14 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:19,000 The only reason he was arrested was because he's an outspoken advocate for Palestinian human rights. 15 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,000 And that's why he's been targeted by this administration. 16 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:28,000 And that is absolutely not an appropriate and lawful reason to arrest someone. 17 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 So what were conditions like for Mr. Sarsour in jail? 18 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000 They were pretty bad. 19 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,000 He lost 30 pounds during the time that he was there. 20 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 He also has a medical problem. 21 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:48,000 He's a type 2 diabetic and his doctor required that he have daily glucose, blood glucose monitoring. 22 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,000 And he was getting tested once a month. 23 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,000 So that's not great. 24 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,000 And that can really pose some serious risks to his health. 25 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:59,000 Was there a chance he could have been deported? 26 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,000 So the case is ongoing, right? 27 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:10,000 So he has been released from detention based on our motion in front of a federal district court judge. 28 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:19,000 So Mr. Sarsour filed a petition for a writ of habeas corpus asking the federal judge to release him from the immigration detention. 29 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:24,000 And the judge hasn't ruled on that habeas petition quite yet. 30 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:36,000 But he did grant an interim release of Mr. Sarsour while the court adjudicates the habeas petition by saying that he's made a strong showing that he might prevail in the habeas petition. 31 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,000 But that doesn't mean immigration cases over. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,000 So Mr. Sarsour is still fighting deportation in immigration court. 33 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,000 And that's ongoing. 34 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Okay. 35 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 You're a former immigration judge yourself. 36 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,000 You've said this case is highly unusual. 37 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,000 You've never seen anything like it. 38 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:00,000 How much of the case is outside the bounds of what you'd normally see? 39 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:06,000 I was an immigration judge in the Chicago immigration court for nine years. 40 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,000 And I handled actually a detained docket. 41 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,000 That's a docket of individuals who are in immigration custody. 42 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,000 So very similar to the situation that Mr. Sarsour was in. 43 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,000 And Mr. Sarsour's case is in fact in the Chicago immigration court. 44 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,000 And I can tell you for one, I have never seen anything like this at all. 45 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:33,000 First of all, the primary charge against them is, as you noted, that letter from Secretary 46 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:40,000 of State Marco Rubio saying that Mr. Sarsour's really lawful activity in the United States 47 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,000 poses a foreign policy risk to the United States. 48 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000 Now that is highly unusual and highly legally dubious. 49 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:55,000 But the other thing that is extraordinary about this case is although the case is assigned 50 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:01,000 to the Chicago immigration court, the judge that was assigned to hear the case is not 51 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,000 a Chicago immigration court judge. 52 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:10,000 It's actually a very senior level management judge in the executive office for immigration 53 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,000 review. 54 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,000 It's an acting regional deputy chief immigration judge. 55 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,000 It's essentially the second in command of all the judges in the entire immigration court 56 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000 system. 57 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:27,000 So that case was plucked out of the immigration court judges and specifically assigned to 58 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,000 this one management judge. 59 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,000 I've never seen that happen. 60 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:35,000 So I gather you feel like you have a strong First Amendment case here that his rights, 61 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,000 your client's rights were violated. 62 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,000 Can you explain that? 63 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,000 Absolutely. 64 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:48,000 Mr. Sarsour, as a longtime permanent resident of the United States, has the same First Amendment 65 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:55,000 rights to speak and to engage in political activity and political activism that essentially 66 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,000 you and I do as citizens of the United States. 67 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:06,000 And so what's really happening is the government is targeting him because they don't like his 68 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:07,000 speech. 69 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:11,000 And that is highly problematic. 70 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:19,000 It violates the Constitution, the First Amendment, and we're very concerned to see 71 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,000 these charges against him by the administration. 72 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,000 So you mentioned this, that this case is not over. 73 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 You have hearings coming up. 74 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,000 How does this proceed? 75 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,000 What happens next? 76 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:40,000 So there's another hearing coming up at the end of July, July 22nd, in the immigration 77 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,000 court, where the government has the burden of proof in this case. 78 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:52,000 They have to prove the charges that they have made against him. 79 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,000 And aside from the charges based on the Marco Rubio determination about foreign policy, 80 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,000 there are some other charges that relate to things that have been decades and decades ago. 81 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,000 Things the government has known about for a very long time. 82 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And we will fight these charges. 83 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,000 We are, he has very good defenses and we are fighting them in immigration court. 84 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:19,000 And if we lose immigration court, we will continue our fight all the way up as far as it takes. 85 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,000 Because everyone knows what's going on here. 86 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:24,000 It's not about anything that happened decades ago. 87 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,000 It's about what he's doing now, his speech. 88 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,000 And that's why he's being, that's why he's being targeted. 89 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000 All right. 90 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,000 We'll be watching the case. 91 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,000 Sam Cole, thank you so much for joining us. 92 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,000 Thank you. 93 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Yes. 94 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:08,000 It's not surprising to me that this case has gotten international attention because it is just part of a pattern by the Trump administration. 95 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,000 To target people they don't like, right? 96 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:17,000 They, they do what they can to target individuals who are saying things that, that they're not happy with. 97 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:26,000 And so in terms, and for Mr. Sarsour, he's one of many Palestinian rights activists who have been targeted by the administration. 98 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:40,000 Mr. Sarsour has gotten a tremendous amount of support from his community. 99 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,000 He is really, he is, he is a community leader. 100 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,000 He's the president of his mosque, which is the largest mosque in Wisconsin. 101 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:53,000 He is beloved by many, many people, whether they're Muslim or Jews or Christians. 102 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:59,000 So he has a very big support network because of who he is. 103 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:04,000 And unfortunately, it doesn't mean this because you have a large support network. 104 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:09,000 Doesn't mean that this administration isn't going to specifically go after you because of your speech. 105 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,000 And that's what's happening. 106 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:24,000 Yeah, thank you.