We kind of branched out and said let's take other people and kind of our focus was we wanted other families with kids to use this area and fall in love with it so that when it gets threatened by taking it away there's going to be people that say no no that's such a cool area so it was kind of that was in our mind too is to try and create more opportunities for people to see what we have here you don't have to drive all the way up to Ontario although that's lots of fun and I love it but we can do a lot of those things right here too yeah so how much of the guiding business you developed was just what you guys wanted to do versus you know there's hundreds or thousands of guides that'll take you out on their you know 16 brick giant boat yeah and take you out on a big lake all day yeah you know I think I think that's probably our biggest thing first of all we knew we had we we really wanted to try and create create those moments for people that just make lifelong memories for them especially families and you get that I think when you're totally immersed in not just the fishing but you're in the wilderness river you're going around you know you're seeing wildlife you're getting the sights the smells all that makes a big impact and sometimes it can be you know you have an experience that maybe didn't go as planned but that becomes the experience and that and you know and I have I have all the respect in the world for the guides that hey meet me at the bull lunch jump in my boat we're gonna go out in the lake and fish for eight hours there's all those you know those guys but we always said if you go out on the lake and the fish just aren't biting that day and it's hard you're just out in a boat on a lake with kids that's challenging but when you're going down a river and oh we got some fast water coming up here and you get it you know oh look at the deer standing in the river you know you go sitting up there the kids get restless yeah stop somewhere and let them float down there and catch crayfish they can do you know you can do things that they'll remember and that's you know so that's kind of our kind of our thing so when when was that when did that start about ten years ago was it that one yeah yeah twenty four two more than that yeah twenty fourteen was when we first started and another part to this was we had you know we had just kind of finished doing the doing the kids all you know doing all the sports stuff we had coached baseball for lots of years and football and high school and our kids were in a lot of sports and music and it was like we knew what it was like to have to put all that stuff on the calendar first and not take the time to go and do a camping or you know fishing or whatever and then you had that one weekend where it's like hey wait there's nothing happening did you really want to pack up all your gear to go up north and get back late on a Sunday night you got a car full of wet gear and can't tense and you got you know all that stuff because we've done that a lot because we have done that and we thought it's not fun so we kind of thought that's a niche you know instead of like families who have that situation you know come up north instead of going to Noah's Ark which is a great you know great fun weekend but are you really going to remember that the rest of your life right but come up north we'll take you for a day we'll haul canoes into a little lake you can fish catch lots of fish we'll even cook them for you make a campfire make some s'mores hike out at the end of the day and leave all the stuff with us and and you drive away and you know that's the stuff that you know kids remember lights are firing kids you know a lot of times that they remember that and they want to do that again and we we we're fortunate to make some really great relationships that's been a big part of it it's been a lot of fun we talked about these little girls that have been coming to us since they were five seven and nine and now they're driving and in the little one the first years we she couldn't really we were afraid to let her cast in the boat she might hook somebody so I got a Barbie fishing pole yeah John go with this big bunch of rubber frogs and he said well Janie pick out one of these and so she's looking and she picks out this red sparkly one which up until then I don't think we ever use and he puts it on digs digs the hook right into the rubber so there's no way she's can hurt anybody and she's casting a dozen a musky common gravity rabbit right in the boat side she's screaming she's got this fish out it wasn't like to go and I mean I knew it was a matter of your time before it would just break the line because it was the frog was gone and and she just you know she never she talks about they talk about every time they come back we tell the genie story and then she didn't want to fish anymore she put her pole down and she said Janie why aren't you fishing I don't want a big musky to get my pole yeah and I we had a we just had one this year I had a young man who was a junior in high school a very quiet kid and him and his dad get a lot of father son and mother daughters and but very quiet and he he just he we had a fun day on the river he caught three muskies we had just we caught it was just a and he was just gradually throughout the day just opening up opening up they got back home down by Okano I can you got back home is dead call me it's like John I don't know what happened but he's like a different kid like he's totally just starting to plan him he wants to go to Stephen's point he wants to do resources and everything and then that was that was he's like so that was thanks a lot for the trip okay that was it well just this past summer I got a call from him from his dad he's like John bends out of getting out of the Marine Corps he's put four years in it's first thing he says I want to go on a fishing trip up north you know call John and I was like that was cool we came up we had just we had just a blast you know that kind of stuff makes it just you know just so worth it yeah and I sure like that that different experience being offered doesn't take long for people to you word of mouth becomes your yourself that's pretty much all it is is word of mouth and you know we're not looking to you know we're retired you know so we're not looking to make a living at this in fact most of it just covers the cost of that yeah we travel somewhere and hire a guy but yeah we could guide every day if we wanted to but then we wouldn't be able to go fishing or so lots of calls but it's yeah so it doesn't take long for people to realize that we take everybody you know we don't you know care you know we have fun you know with elderly people too who used to do it 20 years ago and now you get them in a canoe you know give them a comfortable seat and yeah I think we can do this and they just oh yeah that one gal that was like 80 and she just scrambled up in front of the canoe yeah yeah and she we just that's on the water yeah so that's it's really rewarding and when you're I think when you're an educator that's what your career is all of us teaching more coach friend doesn't master has a master naturalist certification so you know there's a lot so you know we do a lot of foraging too along the way and there's always things that you know so so one of the obvious this story is focused on a walleye because of the people around that so musky is a big thing but walleye is another big species right like everybody wants to catch walleyes because I mean they're the most finest table fair we have in Wisconsin right they're just amazing to eat and so a lot of people want to catch walleyes and we found a little niche for that yeah in walleyes I think it's funny I said they're very I don't like the way they said like an intentional fish like people want to catch walleyes and you don't just you just don't stumble across them like in lake you got it you might stumble across other fish when you're fishing for walleyes but you don't just all of some stumble into a bunch of walleyes you know it's usually kind of a focus but I get we get a lot of calls from people they say hey we're coming up you know maybe from no we don't know Chicago or wherever we're coming up for a week we want to get a bunch of walleyes in a freezer it's like certain times a year you can do that in Wisconsin and the guys that guide strictly walleyes up here and they're good and those guys know it's not this isn't northern Minnesota or even in our Canada this is there's great walleye fishing at times in certain areas but it's you know the Green Bay is obviously really good so I'm going to be as good and we do fish there too but but you kind of have to know what you're doing yeah or have a guide that knows what they're doing because it's yeah it's a harder harder fish to catch but the idea of just coming up and loading up on walleyes in northern Wisconsin it's challenging for species coming up in July in August for their one week vacation right so but people have that mentality and they do and their expectation that's northern Wisconsin yeah walleye every day they do and it is it is it is challenging again you know you especially there like there's a there's a really good lake by us that it's a very very good walleye lake but from about early July through August it's solid weeds and it's shallow and solid weeds and there's lots of walleyes and big walleyes but most people like how do you I mean how do you even begin to fish them here like you know and it's frustrating because people aren't used to fishing in the thick weeds for walleyes but they're in there and you can get them if you know but it's totally a learning curve so so talk to me a little bit about the the river experience because you know one thing that a lot of people probably don't realize is walleye are native like lakes are where you think of them but that's actually not their native habitat so how do you stumble into no one where the walleyes are in these little backwards well that's kind of funny because we actually at first didn't really ever walk at them or catch them much no I mean I grew up fishing the rivers around Eau Claire for walleyes but it was mainly in the spring you know spring walleye fishing in the rivers you know it was good and that's kind of the cool thing about when you're fishing these small rivers right like we said deep water holds most of the fish and deep water on these rivers is literally three or four feet so I mean you're talking about deep little hole that might get up to your chest if you walked in it but everything else is this deep there's fish in there and it's going to have muskies in it and there's going to be smallmouth in it and there's going to be walleyes in it and it's funny in the summer in the spring we can we can go and catch hit those holes and there's rivers high and the walleye the raw water temps good and there's a lot of feed in the water and it's spring so they're feeding and we can we can you know we can catch a bunch I mean you can you know never see another boat the entire day and you're catching and some really nice ones too but then you get into summer and all these other fish are really actively feeding you know smallmouth in August they're eating everything so those walleyes are in the same holes a lot of times so it's like you make that cast and oh got a smallmouth oh here a small one and they're there and Austin at maybe four or five fish in I was like oh it's a walleye you know and it's a nice 17 inch walleye perfect eater you know and it's like but they're they just don't they aren't super aggressive and so and then you know also you don't get them in the bite windows if they want to eat morning you know early and late well if you're floating a river and there's a really good walleye hole but you got a three-hour float out how are you gonna hit that right before dark if you're trying to float out in the dark or right at first light how are you gonna get down to it in the dark so sometimes we have to camp you know we'll make camp so we hit in the evening hit it in the morning you know but you can usually pick one or two up in the afternoons you know and and we have dark water here too so that helps these rivers are pretty dark so you know you find a little cloud cover and dark deeper hole and you can usually find them so so growing up you said you fish for walleye you were over by green bay so it was walleye big thing for you as well no it's interesting because back when i was young which is a long time ago um the walleye fishing wasn't a thing on the bay you know i'm back where the fox river was almost a dead river when it was polluted really bad in the 60s and um so our main fish that we fish for was perch which is a sister to a walleye right um so i grew up perch fishing a lot which there's a lot of similarities when you're fishing them but we'd go out catch 200 perch and that was just a normal thing but not walleyes that was not a thing back then so when you started coming up here is that really the first time that you got into walleye oh yeah and it was like i didn't realize how much there was to it you know i didn't know that it was kind of this cult following of people that want to catch walleyes and that was like the night we got out of the light and bobbers yeah i never fished with a light and bobber and he took me up north and like not far hour from here and we went out at midnight at the bolt landing and launched the boat and we got these lights on our bobbers and i'm watching the light go down slow with his bobber and i was just fascinated by it because i had never done anything like that and i just thought it was the coolest thing ever and then we got to eat them which was really awesome yeah so for you was walleye just part of what you were looking for was like walleye the species you certain times of the year i'd focus on walleyes on the river especially or when you're ice fishing or ice fishing i did a lot i always said i always said i probably got through college because of walleyes i said i i would drive my car i went to stout in monomony and i would one of the lakes where i lived and i drive my car out there at night i'd set up my three lighted tip-ups and i'd turn on and leave the car run turn on my dome i'd do all my reading oh gotta fly go out there catch one i could do three or four hours of that you know i didn't find me three four hours in a library doing that but i could do that sitting in a car by myself you know and uh yeah i saw some good friends we were kind of walleye we chased walleyes through the ice and uh you know that was pretty pretty good focus there and and and you know i think too now with all the electronics that are available to people for the lakes um you know you can find them when you used to not really be able to find them right i mean you can find them suspended in 40 feet of water oh you know how did you used to find those fashite you didn't really most people didn't um but in the rivers they really had it really hasn't changed i mean walleye fishing is very much what it was like when i was a kid and when i was growing up and very simple you know and get put a bait in front of them and when you're talking about a hole the size of this table and you know bait it they're going to eat it most likely so um and that's something we really appreciate is the the lack of electronics simplicity like even with that one walleye we have mounted i caught it i was just floating in a canoe and dragging a bait behind me and uh in the middle of nowhere and it hit and i caught it and that's there's just something oh it's it's special when you do it that way it's like it's very it's very uh primitives not the right word i suppose but it's just very it's very simple you know there's no you just read the water and they got to be somewhere in water this time of year when it gets low you know really concentrates them it's getting to those places it's very difficult and during the year there's certain things like right now you know where the ever the wood is in the water they're in that shadow down there and then shallow water they want to hide you know you just kind of get out of the sun you know we got a few places where there's big logs that if you can get it in there without getting hung up you're usually almost always going to catch one so is the i mean obviously bass are known for fighting or they're a little different and musky will take you away but what's it like to catch a walleye what's that experience like can you tell well we tell you the ones on the river are very different than the ones i mean they just fight like crazy they don't want to leave that hole you know they do not want to come out of there and when you're catching we get some walleyes in the mid upper 20 entrance we got 230 inches on the river in the last couple years but you get those those five pound fish and they don't want to come out of that hole and you're and we're using late gear you know like we usually it's it's it's a guess it's pretty intense yeah yeah it's fun and you're in a small boat you know everything everything is kind of like a circus when you get a big fish on a small boat it's just kind of chaotic but that's what people remember you know and yeah so they fight yeah they definitely fight and that that's just some of the fun of it right yeah yeah i mean when you think of like people that are out and when a baggo just trolling there's gold back and forth for six hours and like fish is on it and yeah i mean is there any comparison between the two well we we do we do we do that we we have a bigger boat and we'll go up to shawama game bay and we'll we'll troll we'll do some trolling i enjoy some of that i mean i i mean i it's not doesn't compare to fishing them in in the canoe or on the rivers but i i enjoy but exactly i kind of a lot of times i kind of call that a little bit of a meat hunt i mean you're gonna go out and you're gonna reel in a 16 17 inch or and it's going to go in you know you're even a 20 inch or it's not a lot of it's fun because you're catching a walleye you know kind of in the middle of you know a big body of water and that's kind of figuring them out it's fun that's where we try and get most of our fish to eat is yeah that way yeah because on the river these are small rivers we try and be pretty careful about keeping anything because you know we just don't know you don't want you don't want to affect the population so every now and then if something's hooked bad or we're going to do a whole short lunch or something we'll keep a couple both clients that are like you know do come here we were ever going to catch a wall i were like yeah you can keep one or two or five then one or two not from meal for them and that's good you know but and they're good with that so look how did you get involved with the women fish Wisconsin women fish yeah a lot of bar don't you get involved with everything at a bar sorry to say you know in Wisconsin um no we were we were at a bar for the musky school so my friend Amanda owns the deerfoot down at uh on the Chippewa Floyd and we were down there and I was working at that school and Barb carried the president it was the Wisconsin women fish was there and we were we were talking and she started talking about going ice fishing up on red lake and they stay in sleeper shacks and all these things went off my sleeper shacks you get to fish while you're sleeping it just sounded like the coolest thing ever and I said that to her and she's like you got to come with us and all of a sudden I was riding up to red lake with the lady I didn't know to sleep in a shack with people I didn't know and fish walleyes and it was 28 below and that was my introduction to the club and it was awesome the people are great and I had a blast and uh yeah it's that's been a really nice that's been a really nice niche for us too a lot of women that want to come up here learn the musky fish or you know again we float rivers and we fish with light gear you know we don't throw big heavy stuff they really they feel really comfortable having friend to take them well sometimes they just want a woman to take them and yeah and then sometimes after they come for a year then of course their husband back home is like hey I want to so then I'll take the husband she takes it and it actually is working out really good we do that quite a bit she'll take mother daughter I'll take father son and it ends up you know being really good the more I got involved with Wisconsin women fish the more I started guiding too um in the beginning I was more like just a support system and now I take a lot of people by myself and uh I even get requested sometimes over my husband I'll say sometimes if you really want to catch a fish go with him if you want well especially in the fall October October she guides a lot in October I I we have dogs and I bird hunt a lot and I I kind of back off the first week or two I I have some trips booked but other than that then I kind of I kind of back out but she goes pretty hard out through the whole month so well in that I mean this having covered this around the state this is a pretty male dominated in your masculine sphere so what is it like to to let women know hey there's a comfortable space for you to learn how to do this yeah that's that's that's what the club that I belong to is all about really is giving people a chance to do it without feeling that pressure and uh a lot we have a lot of women too who used to have fish with their husband and their husband maybe passed away or they got divorced and they're like I still want to do this how do I do it on my own and so we're a big support system we have like a private um Facebook page where you can ask questions and only the people in the club can see it so you don't have to be afraid someone's going to jump in and start saying stupid stuff um and making you feel bad so um that's cool and for me when I take someone um I have a kind of a different approach than john he's very he teaches a lot about fishing and gives a lot of direction and I'll often have people that are a little bit more trepidacious about what we're doing and I'll say you know we're gonna go fishing and we're gonna have some fun and if you want guidance or you want me to tell you things please do so if you'd rather have me be quiet and just paddle you along and you want to just cast a little bit and and so I try and approach it that way so it's not so intense and a lot of people appreciate that and then by the end they're like should I cast that spot how about that spot you know and they're just all into it and but it's a it's more of a slow well imagine that as you give women space they're very comfortable to take that space it's like letting them feel like they can take some of that space exactly and I'm I'm pretty known and threatening kind of person and then and sometimes people look at me and they're like you're gonna roll the river for the next eight hours and we're like yeah I am well and and it's funny because you either light you light that fire and someone who's never done it and they just are like this or you relight the fire and someone who used to do it when they were a kid and they just don't really know why they got away from it and they did and then also like oh my gosh this is well I have a gal who's coming back this year last year she came to musky school from california her kids encouraged her to come back because she used to come up here and and do stuff and she read about our musky school and she came and I had her out in the river and I gave her a rod and she's like she made like three cashes like I am so I can't do this and I was like well you know what let's just set you up with a sucker because in the fall we put suckers on a sucker rig with a bobber and whatever and I said you can just hold the rod so you know make it work for for her comfort zone I wasn't gonna keep pounding on her and how to cast it's like no let's just do this and isn't she sitting there and she's just holding this rod and all of a sudden this big musky comes screaming and grabs the sucker runs into my little cargo canoe splashes her with water she screams bloody murder pretty soon we got that fish flying all around we ended catching it it's a 40 inch musky and I she gets a picture with it and it was just it was just such a cool thing and even her family was so happy to hear all about it and it was just and now she's coming back this year so we're gonna hopefully do it again but you know those said a high bar yeah that's a little nerve everything yeah I get a little nervous about all of it I feel a lot of responsibility to help people have a good time and and meet their goals or make their dreams come true and if I don't then it's that's hard for me personally and kind of getting back to what you asked before people's expectations one of the things that is hard to is is because we float these rivers where you know these are small you go down the middle of it you know you you can cast to both banks I mean this is not like you can't get anything much more than a canoeing on a lot of these stretches and trying to understand that well what is what is a trophy or what is success in that river you know because you social media you mentioned on Green Bay you see all these pictures of people these giant walleyes you know multiple stringing and laying on the bottom of the boat you know and and it's like and it's like well that's not really what we're going to do and we have some really good days where we catch a lot of fish but with walleyes if you go through you catch some small moth maybe a musky and on your light gear and then pick up a couple of nice walleyes you know for the frying pan that's pretty that's pretty cool and think about that into context it's always important to so people are some people are really focused on numbers numbers numbers and after the end of the day they're like that was really fun like because it was just simple like with my big walleye I mean to me that was more of a trophy than I've caught bigger ones when I was out trolling with you on the big water but that one was more special just because of how it was caught you know to me you know it was just yeah we had one I had two guys um they're really tired musky fishermen they fish everywhere and they want a trip that we had donated to a local organization and one guy was from Chicago actually and um and these guys know more about musky fish than I did I mean they were I mean they were really good so I picked their brains we it's one thing we don't have any egos we're always literally we don't we're always asking when we get people in a boat that we know no sir we're always picking their brains but but they were like what should we bring for gear and what are we going to use and I told I said here's the guys we use medium medium medium heavy bait casting gear if you want to catch muskies I said we don't don't bring any musky rods no big ones no big baits I said fishing the river eat the same stuff as the bass I said so we'll catch bass along the way but I said this is what these muskies eat well we get to this we're in the super small river I mean it's where it starts it widens up but it's small and he casts he had on a uh he had on the spinnerbait and he casts the spinnerbait down in this little hole and also he's like oh there's one he's like oh man it's good and there was one of these giant walleyes it was a 30 inch here dark gold water it's like dark gold he was literally like this is one of the coolest fish I've ever caught he was so just so appreciative of it and so you know and that was probably a 20 year old fish I mean it was just awesome awesome experience for him and you know we would release it and let it go and you know that even when I got that with a you know a four inch musky because for him that's a nice musky in the river and for him that would have been like oh yeah that's now but that was pretty cool so one of the other things I want to explore a little bit is relationships and couples in fishing these we've ran into some people that they can't really have a relationship because they're almost married to the boat and then there's other people where you know maybe the spouse will come along and they'll read and they'll they'll find a way to be together and then there's people like you we're obviously your passion dovetails together but how how does how important is you know finding a way to balance a relationship with fishing well we come for a circle haven't we well what's really just just a quick example that a lot of my friends when I tell them I got a new reel or I bought some new they'll say did you tell your wife if they're my friends they know they're joking right but like clients like oh I buy I to hide that I'm like I'm like oh man I said between her and I we got to rein each other in because it's like we just you know we support each other all the time but yeah we don't have to hide what we buy when it comes to fishing you know yeah and it fishing together is this is a special treat because a lot of times we're taking other people fishing so when we get to go fishing we usually run away up to Canada to our canoe country and like we did that this spring and we just had an amazing time because we we could just fish for what we wanted to fish when we wanted to fish where we wanted to fish just and it's just it's so natural for us well and I think too when we first met I had I had been fishing tournaments for bass and I was a pretty competitive guy we were both athletes and stuff and we were pretty competitive and I was pretty competitive about fishing I was pretty intense and she was kind of like lighten up like what's it you know jeez you know you know whatever and I knew though that like because of how competitive she can be that over time she has become a lot more like oh no we gotta we gotta go work that section because I know that fish is there and I know you know so she's the more I've learned the more input I've had which is sometimes I know I roar I roar around and she just works it I remember the first time we competed fishing though for perch on the day I don't I completely locked that out of my mind I had floating jig head slip bobber I had all these rigs and we're out in 30 feet of water she had a paint stick with a line wrapped on it and she dropped it straight down with a spring on the bottom and two hooks coming off and I was like got one she had nine in the boat before I even had a bite I'm just like I like this is just way too embarrassing but you know so there's lots of different ways to fit but yeah we we work it out and even like you know he likes to troll a lot and it's not my favorite but I go trolling with him and I've learned more about it and so I can participate more which makes it more interesting that it used to be I used to sit there like if you go out with a charter and you just sit in the boat and wait and wait and wait for abroad to go off now at least I'm what page should we put on and how many feet back and you know so it gives you a lot more to think about so what would you recommend to couples that anyway marriage therapy kind of like well someone one of the partners is passionate and well kind of like we do with our clients a lot of times ask what kind of fishing do you really like to do find out what each person really loves to do and find that happy medium because same thing I mean I have clients that they love to fish slow with jigs they don't really want to cast top what and other people that's all they want to do and it's like you if you can tailor your your experience if somebody doesn't like to sit and look at a bobber and then you make them sit and look at a bobber the whole day they hate that right so that's one thing a lot of times the guys that want to go up and troll on shromming and bay john just takes them and I don't I don't go along on that and if I have girls that really want to sit and jig for crappies and and blue gills you know I'll do that or like with my club I'll go on some outings that you know I really enjoy and and then and then the other piece is don't don't torch them right once you have one of these days and you know even if it's a good day don't overdo it when it's time to be done be done and just then have go get a good dinner or something or or something just make it uh because man that's how you know you you just can really burn people out in a hurry that extra hour or two hours in the boat around the ice or whatever it just I burned you out and add a little bit on ice fishing here I have a hard time getting off the ice she doesn't ever want to stop so that that might cause us more as that I as a as a guy as a guy fishing I can't believe I could complain about my wife not wanting to come off the water but sometimes it's like no hun we we really do have to go so but no I'm very competitive with myself I'm not competitive with so much with other people but if I have a goal or and we do that in our club you know you want to catch a fish a certain size it's like I really want to make that happen and I work really hard at it I've kind of transitioned a little bit too I don't really care if I fish a whole lot now I love rowing people I love taking people down the river and just I I don't fish that much um really anymore and it's funny because every now and then I'll say to him I'll say but I really want to because I said I didn't have all those years of fishing like you did because most of the time I mean I had three kids and I taught full-time I didn't go fishing when I was young and so now it's like three kids too but I still did a little fishing yeah you did a little bit more than me yeah I was inside making dinner and you were standing out in the bay casting yeah but and I don't have any problem with that but now it's like I want to have my time and I don't want to you know there's a lot of times when I want to fish too sometimes it's even hard for me when I'm guiding it's like I'm guiding and I like I want to just cast over there because I know there's a fish and they can't make that cast and I want to just see if there's a fish there so I still have all that going on my mind I don't think you have that so much anymore well that's no that's a funny thing to appear there's a number of guides especially musky guides that they fish right along with their clients and I always ask a lot of the clients that I have that they've traveled all over the world and hired guides you know and I'll say how many times do you come into where the guide is fishing right alongside you they're like not many they're like that's a little different up here it's like there's there's there's some a number of guides that they'll fish right along with the you know to me I've had it happen a number of times where I literally I want to make a cast to see if this real this line is on right or I want to see if this action on this bait and I'll I'll make a cast like this and I was like oh I'm like oh I feel so bad like I hook a fish and you know they hadn't been catching them and it's like oh you know but um but but no we typically don't fish no I will with friends you know I'll have some friends that they'll be like no you got a fish with us and then yeah twist my arm well you guys can fish with us yeah we'll see what we can do so in in terms of like the culture of walleye I mean the history is there that that legacy but is that still as ingrained or is that kind of a generational difference like the older people's view of walleye versus maybe some younger people it's good that's a really good question because again up here we're in a little bit of a throwback area right here we kind of I think a lot of people still really like you know we have multiple generations of people that come up here these old resorts these old lakes they fish the same spots that they did 40-50 years ago and the walleye still has a has kind of this mystique I mean that's the first thing you ask people about is when they're fishing you know you know tends to come up right away as you know you get any walleyes I mean that's pretty you know and obviously the musky has a whole different following but usually no in conversations with people time on muskies you know it's just walleyes are still there aren't many people up here that talk about like oh no I'm not interested in walleye oh most people they want to go catch a few walleyes yeah so when you think of the amount of research that's being done by I mean UW students points and big tribes and the DNR and all the other agencies cliff like and a lot of it focused on walleye is that worth it from a statewide perspective what is the the bigger broader value to all that effort put into to walleye that one species well I think I mean we're we're we're big proponents of science and all the data and research that shows that a lot of lakes are struggling a lot of populations are and that's and that would be really really shame it would be a huge loss just for the north woods culture because the the walleye is sort of you know king of the fishing and even the chip of flowage you know this legendary body of water I mean it's a phenomenal fishery no walleye fishing in the winter you can't catch them to the ice and it's all people talk about like why can't we well how does it all you know so as soon as you took it away you hear from the people like that's ridiculous but it also needs to be protected because you know we said it a million times but with the equipment today especially through the ice the equipment everything from keeping people warm and transportation and shelters and then obviously the electronics the gear you can you can really really um decimated yeah I mean you could do a number we're very careful about little lakes that we go to and especially with ice fishing it keeping them sort of under wraps and there's only certain people we will take to them that we know are responsible fishermen they're going to put them back um because you could just really wipe it out and then you add social media to the mix right and um you know it ends up it ends up being a potential you know crappies we talked about crappies a little bit earlier and crappies I I mean that has to stand people's radars because in the winter towards the end of the towards the end of the winter all those crappies congregate and that you know in a deeper water and in some lakes only have one deep spot and pretty soon there's a shack there's another shack there's another shagnet and pretty soon they're in a hammering them day after day um you know they gotta watch that so education is super important and and and having the the science behind it you know just makes it all work together then it's interesting that we we've we've talked to a number of people that are very focused on like putting walleye back in the lake whether they're walleye sort of are on the little mobile hatcher user they you know they their their guides or their constant fishermen you know how do those people are talking about they'll catch and release being their primary thing like it's the throw of the catch it's not the harvest or you know they'll do a fish fry but that's not their priority so who who is like they're a different breed of person that is just about the harvest because seems like there's almost like a bifurcation among all the fishermen of those that are just the pursuit and then there's it's the table yeah there's a hunting factor to walleye's like figuring out how to get them and how to get them in the boat that's it takes a lot and so you take pride in figuring that out and finding them let's save that question sorry can i cut for one second what's going on you're gonna be able to edit that out i can barely hear them okay if they were inside or not no no no no can we can we stop for just a second okay because i you're tethered each other i know um really always