Good sounds good this angle good right here yeah perfect so I guess let's let's
start with how did this this venture come together so you got some family
history growing things right yeah yep so we all the way back my grandfather
started a greenhouse in wasa or marathon a marathon city Wisconsin and then my
uncles and dad and on started working there when they were growing up my dad
then when I was born in 1996 started his own greenhouse dragon flag gardens in
Amory Wisconsin that was expanded to Turtle Lake and I inherited that from
him when I was in college we did end up selling that business but I'm you know
me and my two high school friends the partners in this venture Trent and
Tanner we had always kind of been interested in starting a business Trent
has a background in dairy farming he has a 1500 acre dairy that he lives on with
his family and Tanner's a gardener by trade but we were all were our first
thing we did together entrepreneurially was trapping actually trapping
skinning selling the first so not super related to that but we knew we were
most interested in local food production and we love the idea of fish farming
because of that feed conversion ratio where one pound of feed into a livestock
animal can get you close to one pound of meat from that animal and fish shrimp
are the close to a one-to-one ratio that you can get whereas a beef cow is more
like nine pounds of feed to one pound of meat pig more like seven to one and a
chicken more like five to one so we were just really interested in that taking
advantage of our resources more we love that that idea within fish farming and
kind of combined that with the knowledge of the problems of our local fish
populations you know our walleye populations have been decreasing since the
1990s all sorts of different theories as to why but we really like the idea of
land-based fish production so raising in fish tanks where you utilize that
wastewater for something positive like growing herbs and salads and tomatoes
like we do and also you're completely controlled what that fish eats and how
fast they eat and you're not taking anything out of local populations so that
kind of got us into our prototype system we first were raising yellow perch we
like the idea of bringing back the Wisconsin the original Wisconsin fish
fry a green bay or yellow perch out of green bay we after a few months of that
we did raise some yellow perch had plenty of loss too but we realized that
while I were a little bit more well-suited for production in this way they
take to the feed a lot better their feed trained a lot easier they serve they
have a better survival rate and that intensively rearing cult larva culture
where you're actually spawning the fish and they're just for lack of a better
term more chill in the tanks they don't try to jump out of the tanks they don't
try to as much get up in the tubes of the tanks like like perchwood and we just
know how highly marketable and how highly interested people are in our area we
had someone in from Colorado yesterday and it's interesting how people out
west have kind of a different idea of walleye where there's certain rivers in
Utah that are in Idaho they're actually overpopulated with walleye they want to
take them out but here there's such a centerpiece of our overall local
culture honestly what brings people to certain towns are what brings people to
certain restaurants so that's why we kind of focused in on the walleye as our
kind of centerpiece of our marketing and our what we can sell to consumers but
yeah three years in and we're in 30 grocery stores five restaurants a few
different food surface areas and we're nearing capacity of what we can
grow both with our fishing plants so far so as you what's your personal
history with walleye is he talked about the that growing element you know did
you grow up fishing yes yeah I definitely grew up fishing mild man was a
little bit more into pan fishing always I kind of fell more in love with walleye
fishing as I got older but no matter how much I loved it it's still about and
the best case scenario I'd catch one or two you know I wasn't necessarily the
most skilled but grew up walleye fishing me Trenton Tanner we had a walleye we
had a walleye trip our senior year to Lake Winnebagoch ish that was you know
maybe more motivational because how of how unsuccessful we were with catching
the fish but yeah that goes back a long ways but didn't start to try to raise
them until basically basically COVID it was a 2020 project that we started
raising the walleye so it was with growing and farming it was plants verse
before the fish but we've been interested in walleye throughout I worked at a
when I was in high school and college clean boats clean waters manage that
program for Amory Wisconsin did a shoreline cleanup service been a part of a
lot of lake studies and you know the amount of times I put a sechie disc down
in a lake here I got and gotten bottom samples are quite a few but just worked
a ton with lakes throughout my life so so what is that about walleye you
mentioned it draws people in yeah how is it that walleye has so much more of a
lure to people that it's a great question I think it starts starts with
tastes like it's a great tasting probably the best tasting fishfully you
can get whether it's that different from a fresh boogular crappie you could
argue it but I think that's where it starts is the best tasting fish it's
beautiful you know that black and gold contrast and it's a it goes back for
thousands of years you know we have a lot of tribes in the state that have
histories of and when they're spawning in the rivers harvesting them that way
or spearing them so historically it goes back it touches people's
palettes what why they're more interesting than northern pike geez it's
a really it's a really interesting question I like eating northern pike as
well but it's it's I say it's in the beauty in the taste number one and
number two not sure which is first but yeah so you you mentioned how you can
control what goes into the feed part of what we're also looking at is
concerns about mercury and so how important is it for you and your
customers that you can offer something we can say there there is no work you're
wanting to do a concern about limit size yeah well I think it's it's
everything we you know more and more studies have come out that we have
micro plastics and everything we have seen unfortunate unfortunately the the
main source of local localish walleye in this area are coming out of the
Great Lakes a little bit further away from Canada but our Great Lakes
unfortunately have that history of industry dumping into them and they're
they're bathtubs you know there's no more for that to go so we have had
intensive cleaning efforts like I think a lot of success is to be proud of but
there's still that limit like my my fiance just had a child when she was
pregnant you know she I think this is a limit for everybody of it especially
when you're pregnant you know you don't want to eat Great Lakes fish more than
once or twice a month whereas for us you know we think of fish those omega
threes really healthy protein healthy healthy fats to it's a really good
addition to our diet so the more that we can add it in I think the better so
controlling exactly what water our fish are in exactly what they're eating
exactly how much stress-free just delivers the best possible product that
you can so that's kind of why we are big proponents of that land-based
production of walleye. How big can this skin I mean be right now you're you're
somewhat limited you've got a facility it does tend to skin massive in terms of
producing walleye you bring back the walleye fish prime. That's a great
question and there there's certain there's definite economies of scale
there's like for one example our fish food the Europa 15 is produced outside
of the United States right now especially with what's going on with
tariffs it we have gone through some efforts and other entities as well
trying to domesticate a walleye feed because that's not an option right now
so that that'd be an easy economy of scale right there if we tell you know
food producer X that we can take well now we can take a hundred thousand
pounds of feed next year it will largely incentivize them to get that
recipe done that non-proprietary recipe done for us there is and we we hope to
scale on this there's plenty of demand for it there's no other local production
of it you see some frozen Canadian walleye and grocery stores or
restaurants but even the price on that is going up in the short term you know
before there's a lot of genetic studies strain studies improvements to food you
know it will continue to be a premium product more like kind of like buying a
ribeye in the grocery store but we really love the idea of you know hopefully
more investment hopefully more R&D institutes like the UWSP NADF facility up
in Bayfield just do you know irreplaceable work because there needs to be
improvements to be able to scale up figure out where we can improve growth
rates feed efficiencies and those types of things is it scalable yes are we going
to do tomorrow not yet no but we think both to with the utilization of each
part of the fish utilizing their wastewater trying to find resources
within each part of the production is where it becomes a better option as we
get bigger too so right now in your business model is the plants are what's
making everything work and the wall there come along with it or do you hope
that the walleye will be profitable all by themselves as well the plants drive
most of our revenue you know if you walk into our facility it's 10,000 square
feet and only you know five percent is of the fish and you'd probably see our
revenue be kind of similar breakdown as that works we would like to going
forward produce more fish in that ratio than plants mostly because of like our
established partners we like we provide them with fresh greens pesto whatever
we would really like to continue our distribution network but also add on the
fish to that because a huge issue bottleneck with a business food business
our side is that distribution just getting product to the stores but then
you add fish then you add nutrients to and then what do you do with those
nutrients so it may we will let our once we reach that capacity in the back of
our minds we're gonna add more fish but then largely let the market demand what
we do with the rest of that space whether it's 75% plants 50% plants we'll
kind of see what our customers need at that time so where where are the fish
going into grocery stores are they going into restaurants or what where do they
end up going right now fish the walleye are going some do some two restaurants
we'll have a restaurant that a couple restaurants that will do like a father's
day special order 25 at a time but mostly it's direct to consumers so just
through our website we can drop it off next day delivery for people okay yep
yes I mean they guess that is we talk about bringing back the fish frying you
know we've gone to the kawana speed of walleye making a fondle back in this
community wall you go to a restaurant that still happens to serve walleye it's
I think so and I think you know as we were talking a bit about food culture
and locations specifically I think that Wisconsin as a place that you know is
so central in the walleye market the walleye world yet it's all Canadian
walleye well what if it becomes Wisconsin walleye that's being served in
Wisconsin I think that becomes a whole addition and a whole improvement to our
state a whole another reason for people to come a whole another reason for people
to enjoy it around here less food miles better product potentially so yeah I
do really see that being the way forward where when we think of a
Wisconsin fish fry it's actually a Wisconsin walleye produced here in an
ecologically friendly way yeah I definitely see a future in that the
demand is already there it's the interest is there it's just the figuring
out the nuts and bolts of how to get that fish from this size to that size and a
low enough price point to be you know competitive but also we want to get get
to a point where anybody can afford this we don't want just the just the
cabins on Lake Mendota or grindstone Lake to be able to buy their nice wall I
would like everybody to be able to buy a nice wall I maybe we can supply school
districts then and other places that the high quality protein is even more
important so that's interesting where where should wall I ideally fit into the
price point because right now if you look at what it costs to get a wall I
dinner at a restaurant at one of the few that will still serve it you know it's
probably 25 bucks or more at least to get that it's equivalent to a steak
maybe not a high-end steak but so should wall I be ribeye prime rib or
should be closer to like roast chicken or where should that fall into that
scale in your mind of ideally you know the cost of going out and getting a
wall I dinner should be comparable to what I think yeah it's absolutely when
you talk about quality a premium idea of a product I do think it fits right in
there with a ribeye T-bone whatever I think it makes sense to kind of mark it
in that way and have it in that realm of product that doesn't mean I don't
wouldn't like it to be able to be send out bulk and you know a restaurant could
get it for 12 to 15 bucks a pound that'd be awesome too but it's yeah it's just
the right now the way it needs to be intensively raised is gonna just take
that it basically has to fit into that premium product so you you mentioned
the NIDF a lot of the research that looks like walleye right now is focused
on the why it's on lakes and how to increase them up there for fishermen
tourists and anglers and all the businesses that live on that side of it
and you're you're very small operation in that big of a billion dollar scale on
the aquaculture side but you do have research looking that helps you and can
talk about the importance of NIDF and what they've meant to you and how like
their research is kind of at that next like it's not just what goes back in
lakes but what can come to you too yeah and it's really cool because they're so
like they're they're stocked fish that are going to Lake Namakagan correct like
there that's potentially the same cohort of fish raised in the same way that we
will have in our system as well so fish that were feed trained brought up in
this very efficient way utilizing this feed and then can either go into lakes
or or be you know grow more into a fillet for for food at home so I think
it's a it's really important because we might find that as we think about
scaling up you might find that you have to do both just to make it economically
work because if you have a it's 14 months about to get to that market size
which is about almost four times faster than in the walleye so a huge deal but
then once once you consider if you're starting a facility and from 0 to 14
months you have nothing to sell all the while you could lose fish there's all
sorts of risks within there so how do you bridge that gap you could do specific
things in your investing have your runway but really what makes the most
economic sense is to be able to have fish where you can sell them throughout
you can get them to six to eight inches you can sell some to a lake association
because they need 10,000 walleye to stock in Lake Chitak or whatever it is so the
combination of being able to do both with the same kind of cohort of fish
will probably prove very important for this industry whether it's us or
somebody else scaling up to tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of
walleye in an annual season rather than just a couple thousand like we have
right now and that is that is interesting that the future of fish
farming may be all industries not just what's going to end up on the table right
you know direct from a freezer yeah and you can hear me talking you know it's
it's right away you could be selling the the small fry you could be selling
extended growth fry then you get into the fillets or large right now
Cabellas has to fill up their tanks somehow you know maybe they'll be
spend a big big chunk on a three pound walleye or something but then once you
fillet them then the rest of the fish can really be used we talked a little bit
about that while we're filleting whether it's for plant nutrients fish
leather pet treats you can really take advantage of that and that's part of
the reason why too we try not to see anybody as our competitors in this
industry we're gonna have to be partnered with a lot of different
business businesses here in Wisconsin just to get everything we can out of
that walleye fillet and each thing that we're able to do each piece of value
hopefully allow us to get the fillet price down as low as possible as well
do you would you see more likely success that a billion dollar company comes in
these they finally you you showed them you showed the way that this can be
profitable and scalable and then some giant corporation comes in to sell thanks
for the road map now we can buy you out or not we can do like you know land
elites just over Minnesota they already own dog for companies and that's part
of their distribution model that is clocked on factory in Minnesota or
Wisconsin and is it is that what will get to the scale or is it going to be
small businesses that grow themselves to that scale yeah they're us personally
we definitely have specific beliefs on business ownership and employee to
ownership relationship so we actually there would be a level where we wouldn't
work with someone else you know maybe international ownership something like
that on personal that's where we would get away from but there is yeah there's
absolutely large food distributors food processors in this area that have
expressed interest in it at least yeah I I could see a Cisco or US foods you know
these companies that go through hundreds or thousands of pounds of
Canadian walleye well maybe they can figure we don't have we can get rid of
a couple of plainfolds and we could produce it ourselves here I could see
the interest being there for sure because again there is the demand they
already know they have to sell and how much more sellable does it become when
it's a Wisconsin product so yeah I could see it being a thing that happens in
the future whether it needs to be a big company or not I don't necessarily
think that's the case I think it could be it could be scaled up as as we go it's
but that when you talk about investment that's probably the hardest
question mark on getting from day zero where you don't have any fish producing
you start your you start your facility and then you grow all out to that 14
months how do you bridge that gap regular agricultural market has kind of
shown the progression that there's you're a smaller family farmer or small
farmer you have to go home and specialty right if you're gonna do like teaching
high-end quality means of grass bed otherwise it's caffeine is that kind of
the question mark that's gonna exist if aquaculture is gonna expand into walleye
where the smaller ones have to be more focused yeah you mean instead of like
a large hydroponic beat tilapia right right yeah right yeah and you made a
great point like it's been since the 1920s since farms have been consolidated
consolidated consolidated bigger and bigger and you can see the economies
of scale there like the synergies when you have a and that's one thing we
thought of you know we had considered putting the walleye farm on the same
property as trend dairy farm we had considered that because there are some
synergies there but when you talk about how focus you should be you're on one
thing or the other with this grow in this way it's very enticing to be have a
little bit here a little bit there once you once you know how to raise fish you
do get the general idea of the nitrification process they how you feed
how dense you can make it and then how you use their wastewater so then like
salmon seems really cool shrimp seems really cool too I would say like a lot
of things and just production the more niche you could be focused the more you'll
get efficiencies just for an example you know if we were raising something else
besides walleye we could easily need two different types of feed and then instead
of buying a full truckload if we scaled up then it's two pallets at a time so
just for one thing off the top of my head but I would say the more you need to be
pretty focused so for you we saw you met a couple walleye
play them out and they're gonna go in the pot tonight yep
personally is that is that just as exciting as catching one on a pole or
how does that compare for some of my cubies most people been on the pole is
the only way to get right I think for me it's the only thing that you can compare
the taste of when you just catch them out of the lake and then it's fresh
right right on the pan it's arguably a cleaner fillet even I probably I probably
get more excited when someone else eats the walleye that we raise if it's me
eating it it's kind of a horse a piece nice to catch it it's cool that I grew
this whatever but if it's someone else enjoying it it feels pretty cool to be
kind of doing this novel new new-ish technologies and grow strategies and
make a super healthy delicious product that someone else is eating that's
that's what gets me the most excited about it probably so you mentioned
before possibly working with redcliffe or some of the other tribes obviously
we're up in the sea territory and spearing has been issues as far as one of
those things that people like to blame for population decline of walleye and
lakes a lot of other factors have you seen a change in the mindset of people
when they talk about walleye and the connection to the tribes well I'd say to
be fair I'm 28 so the times where there was a lot of protests and stuff going on
at the bolt landing does a little bit before my time but does seem like it's
improving you know people you don't hear people complain about it so much
you know Lake Tomahawk is a really interesting example where they shut
off walleye both keeping walleye both the tribes and sport fishermen and it's a
amazing walleye fishermen fishery now so I'd say there is improvements you know
like the redcliffe tribes specifically I've seen them they produce the numbers
how many fish they spirit out of this lake this lake and then they say this
is how many walleye we spawned them to put back in those lakes to help replace
that so I think through and through there's more eyes on conservation I
definitely you know wouldn't make any claims that though decline in walleye
population is any one thing whether you know sport fishing spearing the are the
lack of forage fish the lakes getting warmer I can't say which one it is or
which one it's not but I think it's a combination of all of them but I do think
the eyes on conservation is improving and I think something like this whether we
get in the business of stocking a bunch of lakes with walleye I think it's a
motivational piece that people are more aware of that the walleye populations
they are declining you know and what is it what can we do about it maybe a
couple people say male instead of keeping that walleye I'll go buy a walleye
filet from aqua garden great but besides that we just hope that we're kind of
helping move along the conversation when you think about how much money the
state spends in research and funding all the studies for wine and for DNR
enforcement and the restocking and all of the all those aspects together for
that one one species having you be this close to that species do you
understand why does that feel like an appropriate investment is it worth it
when you think of the big picture of all the attention on one fish species yeah I
think I think in general when you have that much interest you get a lot of
opportunity it's almost like a political opportunity where you know whether it
ends up that someone in the state is eventually raising 10 million walleye
or not of all this work that's been done from the summer felts from UWSPNADF
Greg Fisher Tyler Fergus Emma Houser whether there's a million walleye system
or not they will have done so much that promoted walleye conservation and
aquaculture in general of all these practices so I think the there's a
value in just building that knowledge building those conversations and we do
need to do some we do need to do something with you know fishermen do take
out thousands of walleye every single year and then how are we replacing those
with spawning that's also getting potentially worse so whether I'm not
saying we have the answers or the best answers we have some answers and
hopefully those answers will just you know exponential growth will get better
and better better data and you know hopefully just overall improve local
populations as good as we can but if tomorrow the state and all the
industry whole stakeholders said you know what it's just not worth the amount of
money we're gonna let you know I do the wall I do if you want to fish you know
there's bass there's bad fish there's something else that we fish with but
the state be better off or would be have lost something critical yeah I think you
know why why walleye right yeah and what would we what would we lose without
them and it's hard to hard to quantify you know how many people are going to a
restaurant to get the walleye how many people are going up to Hayward this
weekend to fish for walleye how many people are going to Lake Winnebagashish
or the rainy river to fish for walleye but it's a we're talking a lot a big part
of an economy for a lot of rural towns you know what else what else brings
people to many of these rural towns you know people don't only go to the lake
and catch a couple fish they stay at the hotels they they spend money at the
marina stop at restaurants whatever so I think it's a a connecting piece of our
state of our area and other places don't have it so anyone can argue whether
you know a red snapper in the Florida Keys is better than the walleye in the
Midwest but it's ours it's ours it's our culture so I think promoting that is
as good a good and important as an endeavor as ever
and you can't just replace it by saying go catch it back I'll say you're a crop
instead right yeah it'll something will get lost if someone says oh bluegills
taste actually just as good that doesn't really mean anything to anybody
that's great great information but it's not going to make someone else drive to
a different lake and invest there and that's not what it's all about either you
know I think you know us in this room all our partners so many people who we
work with you know it's the it's the time spent with their grandpa it's the
time spent with their dad they're going out and they're catching while trying
to catch walleye it doesn't super matter you know we only have so much time now
to spend with each other so I think you know these things that are bringing
together without it you lose some of that yeah six weeks old right now so you
know hopefully in a year year or two maybe it'll be catching some water no
but there is something you think about right absolutely yeah yeah think about
how to yeah what am I gonna do with with my son when he when he's a little
bit older you know everyone has their own interests and not all the time
parents interests align with kids so just one more thing to do together I
think that's amazing probably already envisioned first time right yes and the
other thing too is like when you look at all of the
conservation not all but most of the conservation in land or water especially
here in Wisconsin who is responsible for it it's fishermen and it's hunters
people that have been taught to interact with the land get get food
production out of it they're the ones who really want to protect it you know
they're the ones who invest in public lands or you know these research projects
whatever it and a lot of this doesn't happen if there's not that interest in
fishing if there's not the interest in hunting the ways to connect to the
land or water that connection just doesn't happen without it anything else
do you want to bring up I'm sure I'm gonna forget and think about it in 10
minutes but yeah all right let's we're gonna just be quiet for about 30 seconds
okay just so we can capture that the sound of the fridge