talk to me. I know there's a million things. Yeah, I'll do the best I can. And yeah, there's
no wrong answers here. You're just your opinions or recollections. All right. Let's kind of start
back at the beginning and tell me how you came to be here in this lovely place. It's kind of a
long story but I came here with a bunch of rowdy guys that were about 24 years old. We come back
from Canada. We're very tired and we decided that we needed to stop somewhere and sleep.
So of all things we drove to Garmish and rented a room after driving a number of hours from Canada
and we got our poles and we went down to the lake and we caught more walleyes than what we
caught up in Canada. And we were just laughing and having fun and it was getting late at night and
the owner came down and said, can you guys hold it down a little bit? So there was four of us. We
were just having a blast. We ran out of bait and I always remembered Lake Namacoggan because of that.
And when Mary and I were looking for a place, we looked at a number of lakes and I said,
you know, I know a lake that's a little further east that had pretty good walleye fishing.
And we came here and like I told you, we found a lot, happened to be for sale and so it was kind
of a long, you know, my first experience here, I was, I don't know, 22 years old. So, you know,
that's how long it took and then we finally ended up, but we had had a lake place before in
Yellow Lake, but we wanted something different and maybe a little more, I don't know, wild,
if that's the right word. And so this was it. So that was my connection. That was how I knew
about Lake Namacoggan staying at Garmish. And you know, it's a fantastic lake. You can water
ski, you can fish, you can take your canoe out. It's, you know, let you do everything. And that's
what we were really looking for. And when was that when you were buying here?
You know, we bought here, I think in 2002, somewhere in that, that area. And like I said,
we built a cabin. This was a cabin and it was just designed to be a two season experience. And then
we just decided we did not want to have two properties to take care of. So we remodeled and
turned this into a home. So you, how many children? Just one son went to St. Norbert's.
Good football player, good football program. And, but he would have been high school or younger.
He was, so we had a lake home on Yellow Lake. He was quite young. Then we had a few years off.
I worked for 3M and it was an international and I traveled. And so then a number of years later,
so he was just going into college. So he, I think he was just entering college.
So, but this wasn't bought with the idea of being a family getaway. This was for you too.
Well, when we, we bought it, I got to get my timing straight, but we bought it. He helped me,
so from the family standpoint, it was the first time we actually got to work together and say
nice things to each other rather than instruct each other. So it was really very good for the
both of us. So he helped build it. And so the intent was all along, as it always has been,
is to have a place for the family and other family members to come and fish and
hunt. It's good grouse hunting around here. So, and just enjoy the Northwoods and the lake.
And I think it's Great Lake. So let's go back to your youth. When did you first start to fish?
My dad was not a fisherperson, but my grandparents were. My grandfather was an Italian immigrant.
Why he ended up ending his movement and settled in Minnesota's beyond me.
We always said, if you just went a little further, we could have grown up in California.
But anyway, he settled in Minnesota and got married, and they loved to fish. And not unlike
other people who are immigrants, you know, they ate what they caught. But they enjoyed fishing,
and my experience fishing is really with my grandfather, Mike, and his wife, and my grandmother.
And that's where I learned to love fishing. And they were very good fisher people. And
that's just where it started for me. You know, my dad hunted. He didn't like to hunt ducks,
but he liked upland game. So that's where he would take me. But it was my grandparents that
really got me going. And was that just anything that was biting? They ate everything.
I don't want to say Italian immigrants. But yeah, absolutely. My grandmother would take
walleyes and Northern Pike, even catfish. And she would steam them. And then she would take
them apart, bone them, and then make fish patties. Absolutely delicious. So fried fish patties.
Many years later, I was out on the back porch of one of our cabins. And I had become pretty good
fishermen. And I was fleeing some walleyes. And she came out and she said, that looks great. You
know, your grandfather never knew how to fly a fish. So all the fish were caught and given to her.
And then she would make fish patties. But that's how they and they loved them. And they loved fishing,
and they caught everything. I know there were regulations at that time, and they didn't
exceed those. But they really loved fishing. And that's where I got my interest in it.
So how did you go? Was it a pretty straight line from there to be going to Canada with some other
guys? You know, I went to a camp in Western Minnesota on Stone Lake. And probably the first
fish I caught without a parent or a grandparent or somebody else, I caught a 10 pound
northern, which was a big deal there. And it was a big deal for me. And I was just really hooked.
And as I got older, I started going to Canada. And we'd go to White Pine Lodge up in
Sue Narrows. And I got to know a couple of one guide in particular. And Bobby, he was Native
American. And he taught me how to tie spinners and tied lures. And he took me even duck hunting.
He knew all the great spots. He was an amazing guide. We're out in the middle of a race paddy
that's 40 acres. And he said, we'll hunt ducks here. And I looked around and it went, what?
He said throughout four decoys. And the ducks only flew directly over us. They didn't fly over
on that side. So we had, he knew exactly where the ducks, he was an amazing guy. And he taught
me how to have fish really a lot more. And so I went up to White Pine Lodge for probably 10 years.
Whether it was with Mary and I or just my buddies. And I kept going up there or my brother and I.
And Bobby was always there. He always taught us how to fish and where to fish. So I guess my
grandparents started it. And I have to thank Bobby for teaching me how to fish. So when you came here,
there were lots of things that drew you to this area, including some of those memories.
What was your initial pursuit when you would launch a boat here? It was really walleye fishing. My
memory was that there was good walleye fishing here. I knew this was a lake that you could catch
walleyes and not just a couple, but you could catch enough to have a fry. And that's what
the lake I had been on previously, you know, as many lakes and in parts of Wisconsin,
you know, the walleye fishing was a little tougher. So the other part that really drew me here was
you can do everything here. So water skiing, swimming, the lake doesn't have swimmer's itch.
The lake is good clean water. Not that I knew it at the time, but all the water comes through
the national forest. So it's not impaired in any way. It's just really, you know, the lake is
stained, but that's a natural occurrence. So it's a lake that you can do everything that you want.
And I'd like to do, as a fisherman, there's nothing I enjoy more than to see
a family out there water skiing that we did with my father, certainly more than fishing,
but I was a water skier. So I mean, it's a lake you can do everything on.
Was it different then? We were talking more than 20 years ago. Was there a different
type of people that were here, type of people that came and lived in these, there was a two-season
cabin at the start? Yeah, so I think it was different in that there were more cabins.
There were more even one-season cabins. There were some really large cabins
that people from out of town, Chicago, would come up for just a month or a couple of weeks.
But since 2002 or whenever the date was, people started building, you know, homes,
and some significant ones. And the little cabins, in fact, I was out the other just across the
bay here the other day. And there's a small cabin that's very traditional. The people come from
Illinois. They'll come here probably on the fourth. They'll stay for July and part of August,
and then they'll go back to Chicago. Those are almost gone. And when we've looked the place,
there was another place across the way here. And I thought, I can't understand why the
realtor was showing it to me. But it was really, he said, well, you're going to tear it down.
I said, really? He said, yeah. And that's when it really started happening. There was a lot of
tear downs. There was a lot of people really looking at a different lake experience,
more home-like. As I told you, when we built this and I wanted to build a one-season cabin,
they kind of laughed at us and said, we don't build those anymore. So your construction
became, you know, either had a basement or you had a cement surface that's heated,
but you had a foundation. You weren't putting it on blocks. You weren't putting it on piers.
And so that's what things really started changing at that time.
Do you think, I mean, there was a shift then also in the walleye population. Do you think those
things are related or is it just coincidental as this lake shifted and the people that came here
changed the landscape around it and what they did on the lake, that what happened in the lake
changed to? Oh, I think so. I think, you know, as nice as it is that we have lots of springs here
and water that comes from the National Forest when you build a McMansion or just a big home.
One of the things, especially doing what I'm doing now, is people have a tendency to go down
and cut trees down in the front of their lake. They either do it for the view or if you've seen,
I think earlier in spring, we showed people that liked to mow to the lake.
And, you know, there's more than one factor why the walleye population as
in our lake started to fall. But I think certainly that's one of them is that we weren't taking care of
the lake. We were clearing out bigger areas. We were, you know, some people who built large homes
wanted them to look just like their homes in suburban Minneapolis. And that, I think, had an
effect on the lake. There were more things that affected, but that, I think, had a lot, a lot to do
with it. The joke I have for people who are interested in redoing their shoreline is that
when Mary and I moved here, the first thing we did was take the wood out of the water
because that was terrible. Why would you have wood in the water? When that's a critical element to
the growth of fish and everything else. So, yeah, I think that had an effect.
So, I did some research. I looked at some of the nanocogan walleye population estimates.
They were, it was over nine fish per acre, 20, 30 years ago. So, on average, we've had over
five fish per acre. We did have, and I've reminded Scott Toshner is our fishery, one of the fisheries
biologists. He's in charge of the group. 1997, he was responsible for this lake. There was over
nine per acre. So, this is a good, this is a naturally reproducing walleye lake.
We slid, and it really started in 2002. Oftentimes, people want to blame the spring harvest.
That's not the whole answer. By the way, hook and line fishermen catch three to four
times more than any spring harvest that's done by the Native Americans. So, anyway,
that population was hanging pretty close to seven six walleye per acre till about 2002,
which might be when I came. I don't want to say I'm responsible, but then it started to decline.
And it got down to, in 2018, population was 2.3 walleyes per acre.
And that's when Glyphwick got ahold of us, and they were concerned. They really changed
how they harvested this lake, and we knew something was wrong. And when we first came here, the fishing
was, you know, they weren't all huge fish, but I could take Mike out. And with a slip bobber,
we'd catch 40 fish in an evening. And all of them went back, except for a few that were capable.
But there was fish. And by 2019, 18, there were not. Actually, it was 17 is when we got the data.
And then this project started 2018. So did you change your patterns as a fisherman then,
along with the patterns of the lake? Yeah, you know, I did.
It probably has more to do with what I'm doing now, but I really kind of move towards catch and
release. I do catch, I love walleye, but there's certain bodies of water close by that
really can provide fish to eat. You know, bodies of water like Green Bay, Winnebago.
Anybody, and certainly this body of water can, but for me, I just said, okay, I'm just going to
put the fish back. Unless Mary said, gee, could we have walleye tonight? And then I, you know,
find my way to get a couple of keepers. But I did change how I fished, and I actually changed
towards a smallmouth bass for fun. I mean, I always thought they were fun, but then, you know, so
now I fish for walleyes to find where they're at, where, you know, what weed beds are they in,
you know, the water temperature, like tonight, last night, my sun caught two walleyes,
one of which we stocked, and a couple of northerins, and they were in five feet of water.
So in almost July 4th, everybody's going to think that all the walleyes are in 12, 15 feet.
This is a cold, dark lake is what the DNR has classified it, and the walleyes relate shallow.
So I did change. I changed how I fished. If I like to eat fish, I like sunfish.
I can fully sunfish as well as I can play a walleye. So that's what I, that's what I fish for.
And there have been a lot of studies that have shown that to be the case of when
walleye decreased, and people realized, hey, they're just not, they're harder to catch,
there's not as many out there, they'll target something else. They don't want to fish.
Absolutely. Yeah. But I fished really for fun now, and I'm more interested.
Yesterday, Mike and I went out and fished, and you know, he's 35 years old, and you know,
it's just a good time to go out and fish. You know, I'm not trying to hammer. You know,
let's get a load of fish. So that whole thing has changed, and even Mike has changed too. And I
think it's part of maturing. I think fishermen do that, where it used to be important. The
reason I went to Canada all the time, and fished with that white pine lodge with bobby,
was to bring back a limit. Now, I'd much rather have a fish fry, and not bring any back, or
go to Green Bay. I go to Green Bay a lot, and I catch, you know, some fish, and I've got enough
fish to cook up. So. As things changed on the lake, was it the study that made you realize that
things didn't change, or did Glyphwick contact you, and that's what spurred it, or how did that
all get injured? Sure. You know, first, we all recognized that fishing was getting tougher,
and you know, the expression that, you know, 20 percent of the fishermen catch 80 percent of the
fish, a little arrogant to consider me part of the 20, but I think I was a pretty good fisherman,
and they were just getting harder to catch. And it became apparent that there was just less
fish in the lake. Then Glyphwick, who does surveys every fall, to understand the population of
zero year wall, or year, year of the fish, you know, the fry of that year, figure out how to.
Yeah. Young of year. Y-O-Y. So they count what they call zero year, first year, and then they call
actually year one, so one year olds, and then they can tell the population and how our recruitment
has been doing. And what they had seen wasn't just in the year 2017, but in succeeding years,
preceding years, and preceding years, that survey that they've done was just declining.
And, you know, it could have had to have been some factors, but nobody could figure out the
factors. It wasn't harvest, although harvest hurt. So every time I kept the fish, that affected,
and so we were concerned. And so Glyphwick sent the information to our town board, Jim Krieger,
as one of them, and he called me, and we got a group together. We tried to get a hold of
as many fishermen together, and went to the town hall and brought the DNR, Scott Tashner,
Mark Laring from Glyphwick. There was a few others, you know, myself and others, and we said,
what can we do, or what should we do? And both Mark and Scott were very important to say,
why don't you write a fishery initiative? And we wrote that. So one of our, we made goals. One of
our goals was to have returned the walleye to population of, returned the population of walleyes
to over five per acre. And that's pretty high for the DNR, because the DNR is objective.
Statewide for each lake is three, but this is a good lake, and they knew it was a good lake.
Glyphwick also considers this a very important lake. So that was the goal. The other goal was to
provide some fish habitat, not cribs, but fish habitat on the shore, whether they were fish sticks.
And then we were just going to try to do some shoreline restoration. And we did a little of
that. That's hard. It's hard in that going to people and saying, hey, stop mowing the lawn.
You know, it's kind of, there's a nicer way to say it, but you're still telling somebody their
lakelot looks bad, or it's bad for fish. So we've done some restoration, but there's got to be a
better effort at it. So, and the other method that we were going to use was stocking.
So kind of as a group, we came together, and I happened to have an opportunity to go
up to Redcliffe and meet the people at NADF, and was a fantastic meeting. The guy at the time
who was the director there, we made an agreement that if any one of our parties
said, we're not together on this, he said, it's over. You can't use any of my space.
So that means that Redcliffe would have to agree to what we're doing, that the DNR would have to
agree to what we're doing, that Glyphic was on board, and certainly those of us working on this
project and the Lake Association, but that's what I do. I work on this project. So we all
four had to really come together and say, we agree with what we're doing. And it became a really
nice collaboration that's worked out very well, and I think it's one of the, I think there's a
few more in the state, but I'd have to say in 2017, that's probably the first one that did that.
When there's a chance that something like this could fall apart, like what
not to point fingers, where's the most likely place that falls apart? Is it just hubris,
or is there different goals, or how does, it seems like a pretty, everyone can agree. Yeah,
let's try and get more questions. The simplest way to fall apart is that if the pawn's up at
UW-Steven's point, which is on property by that red cliff, if there's a project for the pawns,
then we wouldn't be able to raise fish. But the aquaculture is not raising fish in
pawns anymore. So those pawns really aren't used, but that'd be the very first one is
if Tyler said, gee, we don't have room this year. The other one would be if you have attitudes,
you know, like, you know, the DNR, it's the DNR's fault. It's a red cliff fault. Hook and line
fishermen take too many, that if we're not working together in a green, then things can break apart.
There's a lot of anger and silly issues that can come up, but we've got a good group that
understand, you know, this is what our goal is, and we like each other and trust each other.
So that's, I was just up talking to Tyler and talk to Lance and, you know, I consider him friends,
but they're also important to it. But if Lance said, gee, we can't get it done this year,
there's not budget, I can't, you know, spend the time to, you guys were there,
get the fish, then, then it kind of, it would stop. But sometimes, in fact, an individual
said, wow, this is a big political issue, meaning we can use walleyes for politics.
That would be disastrous, because none of us want that. We just want to do good things for this
lake. And what Lance is doing is taking the same idea of let's get eggs from a particular lake
and melt, and let's hatch the eggs and grow them and put them back in the lake. So,
you don't have the problems with the DNR in terms of fish farming or permits. It's just a lot
cleaner. And, and I think Red Cliff is doing a great job with area lakes, and they know we're
on board for stocking and helping here. I think they're also pretty excited that we
have projects to habitat into the lake that helps the fishery.
I mean, I've heard of other lakes that are stocked around Wisconsin, and a lot of times the
attitude from the people that live there, the lake association is, when's the DNR going to
put fish in my lake? It's a very my, my ownership centric viewpoint. It is. Yeah, you know,
Max Walters wrote sort of a plan for walleyes for the state. And I think
the goal there was to not stock lakes that really aren't good habits had for walleyes.
Because it's nothing but a dead end. And maybe those lakes are great panfish,
northern pike. Maybe they're great smallmouth bass, musky lakes. But then there are certain
lakes that are, you know, natural, naturally reproductive walleye lakes that stocking can help,
can assist. And then we can, you know, make sure that that body of water is similar to like
what it had been in the past. So there are a lot of people that tell the DNR or expect the DNR
that we need walleyes in our lake. And I think an effort was done, you know, a number of years ago
that was political. And some lakes were promised walleyes and probably all likelihood it was going
to be a dead end. What happens in those lakes, there's one north of Namacoggan is they don't
reproduce walleyes. So the walleyes that you put in at $4 a fish, mostly die off. The walleyes
that live are mostly females. And the walleyes you catch are large. But there's fewer and fewer
every year. And they don't reproduce. So when you're done with it and you put 10,000 fish at $4 a
fish into a lake, you have, you know, $500 fish that you're catching. And there's no end in sight.
It's just nothing but stocking, where many of those lakes can be fantastic fisheries
for other kinds of fish. And people can really enjoy it. And, you know, I think even on Namacoggan
here, Scott, many, many years ago, changed the regulation on smallmouth bass from 14 to 18 inches.
And it was, it's been fantastic. If you like fishing for smallmouth bass, sure, there are
more famous places. But man, our fish are fun to catch. And they're more numerous. People are
putting them back. And they're big fish. And they fight a lot. So I think, you know, I think
my lake deserves to have 10,000 walleyes stocked in. And sometimes that's probably going to change.
But if you said my lake should be a great panfish lake, what can we do to, you know, help that
population? I think that's where your fisheries biologists can really help out. So I think that's
where we're trying to get or I think that's where Max was trying to get. And we're just lucky that
we're considered a naturally reproducing lake. You've been on the lake. It varied. It's got islands,
it's rock biles, it's fresh water coming into it. That's why I moved here. So when did you start
seeing a difference as a fisherman in this process? Oh, I think, you know, in 2002,
when we bought this place, the fishing was really good. And the data supports it too.
I would say it was 2015, maybe 2020, you know, in those areas where it was like, man, I'm really
working, you know, I'm working really hard. I could go out here and on our north shore and
troll, you know, from 8.30 to 9 o'clock and have enough fish, you know, there was a limit,
was three, but had enough fish where I could bring it in and I could play them up and we could have
a fish fry. That wasn't anymore. You know, it was harder and harder. And sometimes when we were
trolling, we were catching crappies. And there's some interesting studies about crappies and walleyes,
but that was a big change for me. I'm catching crappies on what I'm trolling for walleyes and
usually, you know, so that's when things started getting different. By the time 2017 came around,
people are better fisher than me, and there's a lot of them. But everybody was saying,
man, it's tough. It's really hard. So I would say from that time, that time on, so it was a good
20 years of decline and, you know, in a lake like this, if you're down to two walleyes per acre,
that's not a lot of fish. So since then, have you seen an uptick? Have you been able to see the
work? Oh, yeah, it's all, it's all the work I've done. And the team is not, it's not really us.
We've had, remarkably, we had a couple of years of good recruitment. And as much as we can stock
and we did stock, there's nothing like Mother Nature to get the job done. But it was a turnaround
in recruitment and the fact that we were stocking that, so I had, we had good recruitment in 2018,
2020, I think, 2021 and two, it's rare. So we had like three or four good years of recruitment,
where on a one mile, they're finding, in fact, Mark called me and said on this lake, as long as
you don't tell anybody, they were finding 25 fish per mile. That's a big number. That's like the
numbers that you saw, the data that you saw from 97. So the recruitment's really helped.
We believe the stocking is helped too. I don't know how the, we're going to assess
doing tree drops, because that's what we've changed to, how that's going to help the numbers.
But we know that that creates a huge amount of not only habitat, but food stuff for fish
and places for perch to nest in. And so it's going to help, but I don't know if we'd be able to
figure that out. We are going to do a population estimate for walleyes next year. Glyphlic will
be helping us. I know the TNR will pitch in. And that's where we're going to try to understand
on this lake, which survived better, minu-fed fish, or pellet-raised fish. And many states
around the upper Midwest are just stocking with pellet-raised fish. Minu-raised fish are wildly
expensive. So that's the real interesting study that NADF is going to do. We're all interested in
at the DNR's interested in lands and the people at Redcliffe are interested. But that's what's going
to happen. But right now we believe we're at 4.3 walleyes per acre. So it's a great improvement.
Now do you've noticed that as a fisherman? Someone can tell you the numbers, but compared to where
you were eight years ago when you started this, do you feel when you go out on the boat?
I had a really neat experience this last fall when we were clipping fins. I like to say an older
gentleman, but I guess that's what I am now. But I think he had a few years on me. And
grabbed my arm and he said, thank you. He said, our fishing hasn't been better for years and years.
And so this was a guy who was up clipping fins, somebody who had brought his family up
for decades. And now their fishing was back. And any number of people have told me that the
fishing was a lot better. Now they complain the fish aren't big enough, which is not a project
I'm going to take on. But that's good news. And I'm catching more fish. Now our fish relate.
A lot of times people say, I can't catch any fish. And I said, where are you fishing?
And they're saying rock piles and 20 feet of water. And I'm saying, don't fish there.
You know, they're in the weeds. I don't know if that's a behavioral thing or if they've
always been in the weeds. But that's where I catch my fish. They're in the weeds.
So we talked about the involvement of the Red Cliff band. And obviously they're key to all of this.
What were the attitudes of the locals towards the
spearing and the rights of the Chippewa to come in here back when you first got up here?
Oh, you know, here's the, if I can tell a funny story, is when this group of fishermen got together
in 2017, I think it was January of 2018. And Mark Larry was in the meeting with us.
And Mark works for Glyphlic. And we got into the conversation is that the fault was the tribes.
They're spearing too many fish. And, you know, Mark is well-versed. You know, he's been able
to handle the Malax group. And he explained exactly what the numbers are. And so,
you know, it's really hard to get attitudes changed. So on the meeting I said, well, Mark,
can you tell us what happens when you get together with tribal members?
Oh, he starts laughing. He says, yeah, they complain that all the fish that hook and line
fishermen take go right into the live well. In other words, we don't bring fish back.
So everybody's blaming each other. You know, the data is the data. When that meeting was done,
a well-known fisherman on this lake came up to me and shook my hand and said,
I wish you the best of luck. I just don't believe you're going to have any success.
And so that was the attitude about it's their fault. And the attitude for some of the tribal
fishermen is it's their fault. No question, when you take a fish and you fillet, that's one less
fish in the lake. But we started losing our recruitment in 2002. Tribal experience started
well before then. If it had been that, that would have dropped immediately. The formula that they
use is pretty straightforward. It's really hard formula to understand, but 35% of the fish are
harvestable. Between Bad River and Red Cliff, they take a third of that. So they don't take 35%.
And so they establish their quota. And if the ice is good and the season is good,
hook and line fishermen take the rest. Now, this last year, we had a couple of years ago,
we had a survey. We weren't taking that 35% by a logshot, both between the tribes
and hook and line fishermen. So you notice I try not to say spearing or,
so we're taking less and less fish. So that's not the problem. The problem was recruitment
and what's causing the recruitment to go down. And that's happening all over. The lakes are
either getting warmer, which is true. There's more crappies. So there's an interesting paper
speculating that crappies may have an effect. There was a thought about
largemouth bass and northern pike. I'd say like everything is probably true. But our lakes are
warming, our lakes are changing a little bit. And that's the reality. So I think if you
look at this lake now, I think the fishermen are saying, you know, it's working. One interesting
thing that happened two years ago is there was a youth spearing
on this lake in the spring. And that's where I don't know how many kids they bring up. Lance
told me about it, but they had a pow wow or a blessing of the lake. And I got phone calls from
people saying, so it was at night. It was dark. It was listening to the tribe and with the drums.
And people are saying, it's just beautiful. And I'm going, yeah, good. The kids, I think,
got 80 fish. So it's not spearing. And I think we're getting there. We have meetings now and
we've gotten away from that. But when I first started, people said, gee, I'd really like to
help Mike. What can I do? And I'd say, well, you know, you could you could help with some
stuff. And they say, you know what, the problems, the spearing, and I'd go, all right, you're not
on the list. Because we don't need that. Those are the things that would say what would break up
this collaboration. That would do it easily. You know, if Lance felt, no, no, when Lance, when
we stock fish and I stock fish with Lance, he's the most meticulous guy in the world.
He doesn't let a single floater go because one floater is found and they blame the tribes. So,
but we're getting there. And I, and I do believe that that we're getting there. And I think we're
an example of it. We're also very lucky that recruitment has seemed to have turned around a
little bit. And I don't know that they can explain that is any better than they can explain the
decline. But I think things in the habitat or in the lake have changed. So temperature is certainly
one. But do you think some of the fishermen who want to blame the tribal members and their rights
understand on the other side that the tribes are the ones helping to raise the fish that are being
stocked back in? Or do they only view them as takers? No, I think they only view them as takers.
And the, the, we first started with Chase Mariano and I, who was at the hatchery.
And I said the same thing to Lance is you got a PR problem here that you're not really working on.
And the PR problem is where you're spearing fish, you're stocking fish. You're concerned about
the habitat. You're concerned about the population. And most people don't get that.
And I try to explain that when we have any of our meetings that, you know, Lance and team
are out on another lake. Usually it's kept a secret for a while. And they're taking
eggs and they're going to stock that lake also. Excuse me. So if you think of the area lakes and
the lakes that Redcliffe likes to spear, they're working at it. And it's not well
publicized. And maybe that's not their style. But I'm an old marketing guy, I would be letting
people know. Excuse me. Do you think there's a generational difference in mindset that some
of the people who've been up here for a long time may remember the TDs. And even if they weren't
here, remember the boat landing kind of stuff. So I asked Chase once a number of years ago
if I could go at one other spearing. And he said Mike, I recommend you didn't. So I looked up
what happened with Redcliffe. And there's a couple of members of that tribe that were
got injured. And there's still hard feelings. And there's hard feelings here
that I hear recently somewhere somebody. I don't believe in our, between our tribes with somebody
slash tires. So it's one of those you go, really? Is that where we're at still? You know,
the problem is, if it is a problem of declining walleye numbers, there is a problem with
declining recruitment. It's not because the tribal members are spearing. And the most
hopeful thing for me is the DNR now when we're in meetings has nothing to do with it. They won't
accept the conversation. They won't accept the argument. They're saying they're not the problem.
That's not it. We're not going there. And that, that keeps the conversation down.
It used to be the DNR kind of destructive shoulders. Right. The Glyphwick is an asset to them. Glyphwick
is another resource to them. And it's a resource to us. And we easily can work together and do.
Um, you know, have you met Mark? Mark is a wonderful guy. I've spoken with them. I
Yeah. And, and they're very helpful. And Nate Thomas, our fisheries biologist,
they all accept. So when we do our population estimate next spring, there will be,
maybe, you know, 20 nets from Glyphwick. Maybe we'll use some of red cliffs,
fight nets. We'll have five or six boats and maybe one will be DNR. Maybe Lance will be on
another Lance and Rob. But the others will be Glyphwick and we'll do our count. It's just a great
resource. And they're good biologists. They're not, they're just good biologists. They're,
they're not political biologists. They're not teaming up for the tribes. And I think the DNR
has understood that. And I think they're generally, generationally have figured out,
okay, that's, that's not the issue. And we just can't have our local fishermen.
And upsetting themselves about it because it's the law. It's settled. There's not a discussion.
I saw an article in a national newspaper about, said, depending on what side you're on. And I
was irritated. There is, there are no sites. This is settled law. The courts in the land have
said, this is it. And it's a treaty. On top of that, the one thought I had is, can you imagine
living here, you know, a couple hundred years ago, when the ice comes off, it's, it's, it's
wonderful for Mary and I, when the ice comes off the lake, that there was this gift that gave them
that fish would come right to shore. They went, you know, it's protein. It's fresh protein.
So it must have been a fantastic thing. So I think the fact that they
take that history, come out on the lake, and you've been on the lake with me. It's cold.
It's really cold. And, and they spear a couple of fish. They are counted. Mark has done a number of
videos. They're counted. They're measured. You know, it's time to be really over with that. I think
many of the people on this lake in the hardcore fishermen, and I think the other difference is,
you can't look at walleye now and say it's going to be a source of protein for my family.
The tribes don't. I don't know. But I think many years ago, the fish were abundant. There were
less people on the lake. There weren't any McMansions. There weren't any lawns that we were, you know,
mowing down to the water. There were a lot of, a lot more fish in the water, and you could have a
source of protein. I don't, it certainly isn't for me. Nothing I'd like more. I was at a restaurant
last night, and I had fried walleye. It didn't come from here. But anyway, it can't be a source
of protein. I think many people did. I told you about my grandfather and grandmother immigrants.
It was a source of protein. They loved the fish. But, and so I think some of that attitude has
come off. The last time I was, we were together down at Lake Woods. A fisherman, one of, that I
would call one of the harder core fishermen, knew pretty much what we were doing and was very
supportive. But the one comment he had that was negative is that we should be very careful with
forward-facing sonar. I thought, well, now here's a guy that's worried about how we're fishing
rather than worried about others. So he knows he's has better fishing on this lake,
but he's concerned about how we're taking fish. So I think it's getting better. That's a long
way of saying it. I think it's getting better. You brought up something that I want to talk about,
and that's why, why walleye? Why walleye? What is walleye like? The fish, the species.
That's a great question. I don't know. First off, it does taste great. It's unbelievable on the
plate. There's not a lot of bones in it unless you get a big fish and then there's the pin bones
and you can take care of those pretty easy. It's an excellent eating fish. I think Northern
Pike are better. I know how to take the wide bones out, thanks to Bobby, and I can take them
out almost as fast as I can fillet a walleye. I like sunfish, but walleyes are sort of the
symbol of what everybody wants to catch. That's the only way I can describe it because I can't
understand. For those people who live on lakes that really should be sun, panfish,
Northern Pike lakes, they insist on having walleyes per day or big day have walleyes per day.
I think if you can make that sunfish population much better, but it's walleye. People love the
fish for walleyes. What is it about catching them? Take me through what it's like when you
know there's a walleye. It's a different bite. It is a different bite. You can tell how it feels
whether the people call it head shakes or they don't jump. They're not as much fun as a small mouth
and even the little sneaky Northern will give up better fight. But when you have a good walleye on
and then when they get up a little closer to the boat and decide that that's not where they want
to be, then you can tell sometimes while I really have a nice fish on. I don't, I get it,
but I can't have a hard time describing it to you. But you know it when you're fishing for walleyes.
In fact, I think I can tell almost every fish I catch, I'll go that. It's not a walleye.
And that's probably the first thing I say that's not a walleye.
You're discounting it already. A discount is immediately. No, it's not acting like a walleye.
So that is part of it. It's part of the, I don't know if it's a mystique or it's part of the fun
of it. You know, I still enjoy fishing and and I enjoy catching walleyes and I have to tell you
a small mouth bass is like three times more fun. But walleyes are a big deal. And walleyes are
would attract money and attract tourism. It's part of the history, whether you're a hook and
lion fisherman. 50 years ago on this lake, your grandparents or parents, you were catching walleyes
and that was important to you. But small mouth bass much better.
There's a generational thing. Do you remember the first time that your son caught a walleye?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And we, like I said, when we were out here, when we first
moved and could take our boat out and a couple of slip bobbers and I'm working hard taking the
fish off the hooks more than I'm actually fishing because you know, you could have a couple of those
those nights that you know, it was just fun and almost more like panfish. But
though there was good walleye fishing and then you could, you know, by the end of the evening,
you could have, you know, three of them, you know, 14 inches. I think the limit was under,
you know, up to nothing over 14, you know, something like that.
Limits have changed. That's the other thing I think is helped. By the way, I think our new limits are
helping. But I mean, you've got a young grandson. Yeah. He's not quite ready for that part yet.
He's too. That's going to be in the back of your mind. He's like, I want to be in there when he
when he gets his first walleye. I want to see the look on his face. Well, yeah, I want to see the
the look on his face with his first fish. Wall I will be. Yeah, I would like to be there. I mean,
I'd like to be part of that. I'd like there to be walleye here so that my son can have that experience
so that he can, you know, his grandson is Adrian, so he can take Adrian and fish for walleyes and
be the, have that experience. And it, I'd like him to have that experience on this lake,
which is a decent walleye lake rather than have to take him on a long ride somewhere else
to catch a fish. Those, that works too, but be nice if he could come up here and
then Adrian and a young seven year old would, you know, say, grandpa, I caught my first walleye
and be all excited about it. And that's, that's what, you know, like my, my first northern
pike that I caught on my own. That was a big deal. Well, I mean, I'm sure you can imagine the time
that it's like, right, let's run down to the water. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't know up to the boat. Yeah.
So another part of aspect of your life is obviously your, your wife. Yeah.
There are some relationships that fishing is separate and some where fishing gets incorporated.
How, how, how does yours work? Well, she loves to fish. She's a good fisherman. She's a better
fisherman than I am. When we first got buried, my, my wife is a lot smarter than I am. So
she's the academic in the household. She's really smart. So we went to Canada and
I said, we're going to go fishing in the morning. She said, great. She had a great big straw hat with
a visor on it and five books that she carried down to the boat. I went okay. And so we went out
and the very first fish she caught, we stopped in one place and we trolled through it. She caught
a five pound walleye. That's a big fish. And she was like, oh my God. And so we put, we put it back.
That was a very big fish. And then we went to a deep area and she caught a 10 pound leg trout.
The next morning at about 5 a.m. she was kicking the end of the bed and the coffee was on. She said,
come on, we're going fishing. The book stayed back at the cabin. And she's always been a really
good fisherman. You know, she's not as, she has a lot of other things in her life that are important
to her. But we're going to go on a fishing trip in August and she'll out catch me. In fact, I,
last year we were on a fishing trip and she caught the first fish. And it was like 26.
And of course we put it back. Even where we were at, we put that back. And then she
outfished me for the rest of them. So it's like, I just give up. So she's a good fisherman. You
know, the relationship, that's important because she has to be willing to live up here too. So
she has to have things that are important to her. But she's generous enough to, and she likes the
lake life, but it was generous enough to give up maybe a more academic life. But I'm sure you know,
you know, guys that never see their wives because they're always out fishing or maybe they lost a
most fishing widow is a pretty common thing. Is it? It'd be really bad.
Well, there's a lot of people that I guess I know a few that fish and not with their
spouses or whatever, consider it. But you know, I do think of it as something to do with others.
I do fish on my own, but I'm not crazy. If I fish on my own, I'm trying to find where they're at.
At the season. So as you know, early in the spring, the fish are very shallow.
And I try to understand what they would bite shallow. But when they move, where are they moving to
what weed beds? They're usually weed beds. I do that for myself. If I want to eat any fish,
I go for panfish. But you know, having my wife with me is very important. And we enjoy
our time together doing that. She's just not as she doesn't want to be on the walleye project.
So she has other things.
We've covered a lot of territory here. Anything else that you can think of that
comes to mind, otherwise I'm sure we'll have other opportunities.
No, I'm glad you covered the thing about the tribes because
I have a friend that is working on this with me. His name is Ted Pike one. I've told him. I said
you get into a meeting or you have a conversation with somebody and they say the problems, the tribes
don't be nice. You have to say that's not true. There's data that supports that we catch more fish,
hook and line fishermen. And I don't want to make it racial than the tribes do. And what you're
saying about the tribes is not accurate. I said, Ted, you can say it nicer or more
diplomatic than I am. But that's not true.
Excuse me. And I think we have to get there. And so I'm glad you asked about that. And
you know, they have every right in the world. They're wonderful people. I think of
was it 1540 when they finally moved here in this cold area and they found this fish that comes to
the surface almost in the spring. It must have been a wonderful experience. You know, I mean,
you're eating wild rice and not much any dried berries and now you can get some fish or fresh meat.
So I think it's wonderful. I hope they continue to do it. And I told Ted, I said you absolutely
have to say that's not accurate. And I've been really pleased with the DNR is that they don't
put up with the conversation anymore. And they say the same things that it's not accurate.
But, you know, for us, you know, you want to be one of the guys. And yeah, you know, it's the
tribes. And I explained it to others. We got to tell them, no, I'm not having that conversation.
And that's not true. And I think you have to find the nicest way to say that is not true.
Because it's it gets us all screwed up. You know, we're worried about what the other
people are doing, what others, you know, and you know, if you think about this collaboration,
then that that would end it, you know. And that's why the guy who said I'd like to help you. And the
first advice he was going to give me is the problem is the tribes, you know, you're off the list,
buddy. You know, so Ted is all with me all the way, you know, it's not true. It's a conversation
that has to be had. I think if we get here, if we had another big meeting, I don't think you'd
get many questions anymore, where in the winter of 2018, a lot of questions. And everybody's seen
there's more fish working together, red cliff is here. Everybody likes Lance. Rob is great.
The hatcheries working. And I wish they would hire a PR guy to talk a little bit more about
what they're doing, because they, you know, they're they're helping other lakes too. I mean,
it's smart, but you know, they're they're in there. So that's why I tried to get the community.
And you'll see that up to red cliff and we'll clip fins. And if I could get some of them to
help Lance clip, that'd be fun too. All right. So I think what we'd like to do is we're going to
put a little wireless mic on you back again, just so we can kind of walk around. I was hoping
you kind of show off some of your fish. Sure. Sure. Before that, I just need 30 seconds of
quiet. I think it's all right. We have to get some it's for the audio sound of the room. Yeah.
Yeah.