and then whenever you're ready, it sounds good.
Cool, so I'll just start with some questions I have about Moa
and when you first met him.
So when I was talking to him, I remember he said by the time
he got to Dodge County and he realized he was in Wisconsin,
he was just so depressed.
He didn't even want to leave his cell
and even when he heard about the law clinic.
And so he didn't even want to come,
but he finally decided to.
So when you met him, what was your first impression
of him when you saw him?
When I first met him, so when we're in Dodge,
I greet people and then place them with students.
And I remember asking him after, you know,
who was the first person you spoke to?
And he was like, here, and it was you.
And all you did was ask if I spoke English.
And I was like, oh, that wasn't super welcoming, I'm sure.
But then he immediately went and sat
with one of our students, Maggie.
And about 10 minutes after they were talking,
she came back to me with tears in her eyes
and said, Erin, we have to help him.
And reading his story and talking to him that day,
I knew that it was a case that we should be taking.
And Maggie was the student who would be working on it.
So what was it about his case that you knew you would be able
to help or like stood out compared to other cases?
So compared to other cases, there are some cases at Dodge
where people have criminal convictions that maybe make it
tougher to qualify for immigration benefits,
or they have like a border violation
or something like that.
But why didn't have any of that?
And what I would say of what I learned from this case,
he had what would be a textbook asylum case.
It was one of the strongest asylum cases I've ever seen.
And I knew that we should, we would be able,
I hoped that we would be able to represent him
and assist him in receiving asylum
and eventually reuniting with his family as well.
So what are those kinds of points for asylum
that made it so textbook?
So he was, he fled Cameroon based on persecution,
past persecution because of his political beliefs.
And the evidence was strong.
They're not only his country of reports
and expert reports that were able to present,
but he also wears scars on his body,
that we were able to demonstrate
were linked to the persecution that he suffered
from the government in Cameroon.
Gotcha.
So can you also kind of walk me through
like a typical asylum case?
Like what does that look like?
How long does it take?
And also kind of how does that compare
to you applying for green carpet?
So there's no way to really,
for me to articulate a normal asylum case
because over the past,
especially since Trump was president,
it's changed substantially.
And it seems to change substantially every few months,
including now with their current policies
that have been changing through the power
of the executive office.
But when we met him,
I looked at it as like a normal,
detained defensive asylum claim,
meaning he's in deportation proceedings
and will represent him.
And eventually he'll present his case
in front of an immigration judge.
And if he gets asylum,
then he'll be released from detention
and will be in a pathway to citizenship.
So after one year of being an asylum,
you can apply for your green card.
And then four years after,
you can apply to become a US citizen.
But when he entered,
it was at the peak of the most restrictive asylum policies
implemented by President Trump,
including a safe third country transit ban,
which means if you pass through a third country
on the way to the United States
and didn't apply for asylum in one of those countries,
and then you would try to apply for asylum
at the southern border,
you're barred from receiving asylum.
And that's what he was facing.
Even though any other time I would have met him,
I would have said, we're gonna go to your hearing
in three months after we prepared everything
and you're gonna get asylum.
I'm confident you are.
I would never say 100%.
But because of the policies under the Trump administration,
they barred him from having asylum.
So we had to change strategies.
And the first thing we wanted to do
was to get him out of detention.
And that's almost impossible
for people that are considered under the law,
arriving aliens.
They are people who present themselves
at the southern border to seek asylum.
They're subject to mandatory detention.
So Gua was subject to mandatory detention.
But because of his good character
and his family ties in the US theater cousin here,
ICE, Immigration Customs Enforcement,
actually agreed to parole him into the United States,
which shocked us,
but then allowed him to not have to remain in detention
during the pendency of his asylum case.
And so normally when someone's in detention,
we're gonna have their final asylum hearing
four to five months after they are detained there.
Once someone is released from detention
and they are applying for asylum, but not detained,
it can take years.
And that's what it did in Gua's case.
The only reason he has asylum now is we requested
for an expedited hearing.
Otherwise, he probably would have still been waiting
five or six years later.
Why not?
Yeah.
So.
So I remember talking to him as well,
and he was saying how he didn't even know
he was in Wisconsin until months after,
because he said the most confusing part
of his whole journey here was honestly getting
to the US border and getting traveling
from there to Wisconsin.
How often does that happen with people?
It's super common.
People that are detained at the Dodge County
correctional facility here in Wisconsin
are from all over the world.
Many of them are from Wisconsin and surrounding states.
Illinois doesn't have any detention centers anymore.
So there are people from many other states
who have been living in other states.
But also when we are bringing people
from the southern border to be detained,
they can be from all over the world.
We meet people from Afghanistan, from China,
from Cameroon, from Cote d'Ivoire, from Venezuela,
really all over the world.
And they have no idea why they're in Dodge County,
Wisconsin, and really where that is.
I mean, we're closer to Canada than we are
to Mexico.
So it can be really disorienting to them.
Totally.
So since you've been a lawyer,
how have you seen immigration policies, people come through?
How has that changed over the past five years, past 10 years?
Over the past five years, they become much more restrictive
and all of the policies have become more complicated,
especially as they relate to asylum.
When Trump became president, it felt like
there was very little I could do to represent someone
to qualify for asylum.
And meeting Gua during that time was almost paralyzing
because I knew that our laws and our international agreements
should allow him to have safety within the United States
and to eventually be reunited with his family.
But as it stood the day that I met him,
that was impossible.
So going along with the policies,
what is your reaction to the Biden executive order
that temporarily shuts off access along the border,
especially for asylum seekers?
I'm not surprised that there is a more restrictive policy
that is coming across, even from Biden's office,
because it has become so politicized
and there's so much misunderstanding about the border.
All we do is hear in flux, in emergency,
and but we're really forgetting about
that this is a humanitarian issue
and that as the United States, we have laws
that allow people to seek protection here
when they will be persecuted or have been persecuted
in their home country.
And now we're just blocking that off again
for many people that would otherwise be eligible
for protections in the US.
But as a political nature of immigration right now
is, I think this is by restricting things
that the border is the only way someone is gonna gain
popularity with the general population,
even though that's incredibly disheartening.
Yeah, totally.
And so oftentimes these immigrants
return back to their home countries,
where it could be unsafe.
What does that mean for someone like,
what who could have, this potentially could have been
if it had been used earlier?
Right, well, I mean, when Gua entered the United States,
he entered in a very, it was an emergent situation.
He had just been survived and attempted kidnapping.
And prior to that, he was stuck in Mexico
under the migrant protection protocols.
So he would have had to remain in Matamoros, Mexico,
which is one of the most dangerous cities in the world.
And he would have had to remain there for a long time.
But after he was beaten and almost kidnapped,
he begged a custom border protection officer
to allow him to enter the United States
and be detained there during the asylum process
versus staying in Mexico,
where he knew his life was very much in danger.
And we believe, and I've talked to Gua about this,
that the only reason they did eventually let him in,
beyond that he had physical wounds
and his health was in danger, he spoke English well.
And so he was able to communicate fully
with the custom border protection officer.
And Gua's an articulate, he's intelligent, he's kind.
I think all of those, his ways of communicating
really allowed him to not remain in Mexico
during the pendency of his asylum hearing.
But if I think about him being returned,
to Mexico at a date like today,
I'm not sure he would have survived.
There is so much danger to migrants
in these border cities because they are targets.
Many of them, they may travel with some money,
but it's not much money.
But the gangs in the narco-trafficantes,
they are controlling many of those areas,
and they know how to target individuals
who are extremely vulnerable
on their journey to seek safety in the US.
And beyond that, there's a lot of,
what I've witnessed and what has been reported,
there's a lot of racism also in Mexico
for migrants from African countries,
in particular those who look like Gua.
And so he experienced a lot of that on his journey as well.
And I think at first he thought it was
because he didn't speak Spanish,
and later he realized it was because the color of his skin.
So the danger that he would face
if he was forced to remain in Mexico during this time,
or if he had been returned to Cameroon,
he would not have survived.
Yeah, so what does that mean for people
who are now unable to cross the border,
who are at the border right now,
what does it look like for them?
What are the implications of this policy?
So right now, the Biden administration is attempting
to have everyone process for asylum through an app,
a CBP-1 app.
And so when I go to the border,
I meet with people who are in the process of waiting
for an appointment to then go and ask the U.S.
if they can apply for asylum within the U.S.
People are waiting for months to just get an appointment
with CBP-1 in order to process.
And so they're living in Tijuana.
I visited shelters where people are leaving,
but you're living,
but you also see people just living in tent cities.
They're waiting there with some hope
that they one day will be able to enter the U.S.
But those that are waiting for the CBP-1 app
are waiting a long time.
And those that are crossing irregularly
without a CBP-1 app are often targeted
by criminal organizations or being smuggled
and paying people exorbitant amounts of money
in order to attempt to cross the U.S.
So the dangers and the desperation are evident
everywhere you look and with everyone you meet.
And while increasing options for more regular migration,
I do think is a solution.
It's not happening enough.
There are not enough safe routes for people
to seek protection.
Yeah, so how dangerous are those routes?
Because people will still try to cross regardless, right?
So what happens to them?
The death rate at the border right now
is incredibly high.
People face the elements, but also criminals.
There's so much danger that people face,
but people are desperate.
And so in order, they're risking their lives
because they have no other choice.
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's kind of a good question.
Is there anything else you wanna talk about?
I mean, I guess when you go to these countries,
like what's your goal when you're meeting these people,
your clients, what do you need to help bring you?
So we have a new project.
It's called Safe Passage from the Darien Gap.
And the focus of the project is to look at ways
to mitigate the dangers that people face
when they are coming from south of the Darien Gap,
so in Colombia, a similar journey that Guat did.
And he was actually one of the inspirations for this
because of everything he suffered during his journey.
And also, I've met a number of people
that he was on the journey with,
and they talk about how he saved their life.
He's a strong, compassionate, strong leader.
And so learning about that,
but then learning about all the hardships
that he went through and the discrimination
and that people even survived the journey is incredible.
But we're looking at ways to harm reduction.
How can we reduce harm to people like Gua,
who have these strong asylum cases,
in order to see if there's a way that they can get to the US
with asylum in a regular route,
without having to risk their lives
in order to get to the southern border,
because there's really no other options.
And so in a few countries right now,
including Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala,
there are these safe mobility offices.
And so Biden has opened up these regular routes of migration.
So people can apply with the United Nations
or with the IOM, so International Office of Migration,
to receive benefits while they're in Colombia,
and then they can fly to the US.
So if Gua had been afforded the opportunity
to apply for asylum in Colombia with the United Nations,
then he wouldn't have had to risk all of it.
And then he would have arrived in the US
without needing a court date,
because he already would have been deemed a refugee.
And so Biden is starting to do some of these,
opening these regular migration routes
that increase safety and also encourage people
with strong asylum claims to apply for asylum earlier,
or refugee status earlier.
So we're really looking at that
and hoping that there's ways that we can increase
these opportunities for people to seek,
have a safe passage to the US.
The problem is, it's very limited on who can apply
and how many people are able to process, but it's a start.
And so we're really looking at those factors
and seeing what other ways we can mitigate the danger
that people are facing.
And one of that is also information campaigns.
So the people actually know before they risk their lives
whether they may be eligible for asylum in the US.
Because a lot of people who are coming,
they don't necessarily know what the law is.
Gua did, he studied before he came.
He knew what US asylum law.
He knew that he should qualify for protection.
But many people are coming,
get misinformation, whether it's from their governments
or from criminal organizations that benefit
from the money that people pay to take this dangerous journey.
So trusted information is really important
and we're hoping to be part of that.
Those information campaigns
that will allow people to have trusted information
before they choose to risk their life.
Yeah, it's really, that was gonna be my next question.
Like how do you get that information out to people
to just do word of mouth?
And how does that add to the confusion also?
Right.
So one thing we're starting to do is
we're collaborating with law schools in Mexico and Colombia
to do transnational immigration clinics.
So when we were in Colombia in February,
I brought five of my students
and then we worked with a immigration clinic
at Universidad de Los Andes,
which is a really amazing law school,
highly reputable.
And what we did is we went out to the community
and met with people who had questions
about both Colombian protections and U.S. protections.
Because Colombia before five, about five years ago,
didn't really have people that were wanting to stay there.
But with Venezuela, it all changed.
And so there are actions for asylum in Colombia.
There are options for temporary status
for certain people in Colombia.
And so for some people who aren't going to qualify
for asylum in the U.S.,
it may be better for them to stay in Colombia.
But doing these transnational clinics,
they are able to meet with a U.S. attorney
who can advise on the U.S. law
as well as a Colombian attorney
so that they can have agency in their choice
and say, okay, doesn't sound like my case
would allow me to qualify for asylum.
So maybe I'll look at staying in Colombia
or I have a very strong case for asylum in Colombia.
How, or asylum in the U.S., how am I going to,
how am I going to process that
and do I want to risk my life to go through the Deering Gap
and to reach this other border?
But just sharing trusted information,
providing ability for people to have agency
in their decisions.
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that's pretty much all I have.
Is there anything else you want to talk about with Moa?
I don't think so.
No.
But thank you.