I am recording, so whenever you're ready.
Okay, you can start by just saying your name and your title.
My name is Sumudu Atapato and I'm a teaching professor here at University of Wisconsin Law School.
And I'm also the Director of the Global Legal Studies Center and the Executive Director of
the Human Rights Program.
And then can you just tell me a bit about your work and what your research?
So I look at the link between human rights and environmental issues, especially climate
change and how a human rights framework would be useful to address environmental pollution
and degradation.
And then talk to me about the wiki working group.
You remember what do you guys research and what kind of questions are you asking?
So I'm part of the working group looking at climate migration.
So one of the things we want to look at is whether people are moving to Wisconsin because
of climate change.
There is some anecdotal evidence that people are moving here due to climate change impacts.
But we don't know for sure, so we want to do a more scientific study on that.
So that's what we are doing right now.
Sorry, can you?
It might be awkward.
Can you leave the other way?
Yes, yes.
Definitely.
Sorry.
Maybe you take out the notebook.
Oh.
And you're like a centimeter to the eyes on the screen.
I just would like her looking at more of those.
Yes, yes.
That's perfect.
Okay.
And then when did you start studying human rights in the environment and what got you interested
in these topics?
So I'm originally from Sri Lanka.
So when I was there, I worked for an environmental NGO.
And I realized that the lawyers there did not really look at the impact of environmental
issues on people per se.
And there were some court cases where they evicted some people from a national park.
And I realized that by applying one framework of law, they were violating another.
So that really got me interested in the link between human rights and environment.
Can you talk about why are healthy climate as a human right?
So if you look at the impact of an unhealthy environment on people, like pollution causes
things like asthma and other health issues, polluted water has health impacts as well.
And if you're displaced by a disaster, then you might lose everything you have, including
your shelter, your possessions and things like that.
So and with climate change impacts, water is going to become scarce, places are going
to get drier and desertification is a problem.
So all these impacts have, all these consequences have impacts on people and they're right.
So even right to life could be affected.
Right to health, food, water, shelter, freedom of movement could be affected.
So the whole range of rights could be affected by environmental degradation, especially climate
change.
And then you mentioned in our first interview that kind of the people who feel impacts are
double whammy, feeling other impacts, can you just talk about what kind of communities
are disproportionately affected by climate change?
So if you look at the situation in the US, especially, we know that minorities have
been disproportionately affected by things like redlining and things like that.
These are the same communities that are affected by environmental degradation.
We have a history of locating polluting industries in low income and minority communities.
The environmental justice movement started as a result of that.
So these are the same communities that are disproportionately affected by climate change.
And then there are other reasons like age, disability, gender.
So the communities that are already in a vulnerable situation are disproportionately affected
by climate change, which is a justice issue as well.
And why is it important to get a human face to climate change?
So when you look at how climate change started, people still think that it's just
an environmental problem.
They don't realize that we are living through the consequences of climate change.
So highlighting that there are already victims of climate change, you know, identifying the
victims and giving them a human face, I think it's important to bring the issue closer to
the people.
So that's why I said, you know, giving a human face to the problem is important.
And why should people who might not really be thinking about things like climate change
and migration care about these things?
So climate change is a global problem with localized impacts.
Nobody will be able to escape the consequences.
We cannot insulate ourselves from the consequences of climate change.
So because everybody is affected, obviously some communities and countries are more affected
than others, we are living through the consequences of climate change.
So everybody should care about climate change because everybody is affected.
And unfortunately, some communities have to move because of climate change.
Even in the US, there are communities in Alaska that are being relocated or awaiting relocation.
There's a community in Louisiana that is being relocated to the mainland.
And then people will move to Wisconsin too because it's safer than other parts of the
country.
So I think everybody should care about it because nobody will escape the consequences.
Thank you.
And then can you talk a bit about how climate change will impact things like public health
and the economy?
So as I already mentioned, climate change has severe health impacts like air pollution
causes more asthma, cases of asthma.
There will be less water even in the US, even with great lakes, there will be less water.
So that has a big impact on health.
But we should also think about the positive aspects.
So if people walk more, then drive, for example, that will have health benefits.
So climate change is a good opportunity for us to become healthier, transition to a healthier
diet, a plant-based diet, which will have climate benefits as well as health benefits.
And then you mentioned things like water scarcity, vector-borne diseases, air pollution, and
mental health issues.
Could you just talk a bit about what other kinds of issues you think will be seeing?
Mental health issues is a big issue.
It has not been studied too much.
Extreme heat causes a lot of anxiety.
And generally climate change is causing a lot of anxiety in the younger generation.
If you look at the US alone, last year there had been $1 billion weather disasters almost
every two weeks on average.
So that can cause intense anxiety in a lot of people, especially if you're directly
affected.
And it's a huge economic issue as well, right?
So the mental health impacts, the vector-borne diseases and tropical diseases, which we haven't
seen before, like malaria and dengue, would become prevalent with increased temperatures.
Thank you.
And then is climate migration already happening?
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
As I mentioned, some communities are being relocated.
As we speak, some communities are awaiting relocation, and people are moving, especially
from small island states in the Pacific, because with sea level rise and severe weather events,
these countries are becoming uninhabitable.
So people have started moving, and some countries like Australia recently announced that they
will take in climate refugees.
And then we talked in our first interview about people who can't migrate for reasons
like poverty and disability.
Can you just talk a bit about that?
Right.
So migration is considered as a form of adaptation to extreme weather events, to climate change.
But there are communities who are unable to move due to poverty or social norms or disability
or age.
So it's important to pay attention to those trap populations as well, in addition to looking
at people who are moving due to climate change.
And how can we increase the resilience of communities to adapt to the consequences of
climate change?
So learn from the past, although we have never faced such a severe threat to the global community
before, but indigenous communities especially have adapted to changing climate for millennia.
So we can learn from their wisdom, and also communities that are close to the ground,
like small scale farmers, they have adapted to changing climates.
And also build more better infrastructure to withstand these disasters and educate people
about what we can do to build our resilience.
And then I know you study like global things, not local, but are there any ways you recommend
we increase the resilience of Madison or any thing you recommend a city does to be prepared
for the impacts of climate migration?
Yeah, so again, there are lots of things that we can do as citizens.
I said it's a global problem with local impacts, so there are lots of things that we can do
to make houses, places where we live, more climate friendly, and even our diet can contribute
to climate change.
So if we can sort of transition to a more plant-based diet, reduce food waste and things like that.
And I think the most important thing is to educate ourselves about what we can do.
The governor has established a task force on climate change.
In Wisconsin, the mayor has a program, so getting involved in those things and getting
educated I think is the most important thing.
And then are there any ways you think cities or governments should be getting ready like
maybe investing infrastructure or stuff like that?
Absolutely.
I mean, with the recent disaster in Baltimore, the collapse of the bridge, people are already
talking about the need to increase infrastructure.
So we have seen many examples of that around the world.
So the recent infrastructure bill that was passed by the Biden administration has a lot
of money for this, so we really need to invest in better infrastructure, better buildings
to withstand these disasters.
So flooding is going to be a problem, extreme heat is going to be a problem, it's already
a problem.
So we need to build infrastructure to withstand those and make it better for people to live
in.
And from your personal perspective, do you think Madison has the potential to be a client even?
I think so, because we have not experienced the severe weather events that other places
have experience like wildfires and extreme heat and things like that or tornadoes.
So I think it has the potential to become a climate haven and some people might already
be moving as a result of climate impacts from other parts of the country.
So yeah.
And do you have any general advice for climate migrants or people like even thinking about
doing research on where to live?
I think moving is a big decision and climate change might be one factor that goes into
that decision, affordability is a big thing, affordable housing is a big factor that goes
in and Madison especially is becoming quite expensive in terms of housing and cost of
living and things like that, comparatively it's still better than California and the
East Coast.
So looking at, and your culture plays a big role too, particularly for people, indigenous
people moving or leaving their land is a big decision.
So looking at all these factors and weighing them I think will give people a good choice
really, but sometimes you don't have time to make those decisions, sometimes they have
to move pretty fast.
And then of course you go to the safest possible place when you're faced with a disaster especially.
And besides like a lack of affordable housing, are there any reasons you think Madison might
not be suitable as a climate haven?
Well I mean we have had, I mean our winters are pretty harsh, right?
So that's something that people think about when we think about Wisconsin.
But I think overall Wisconsin especially Madison you know it has good schools, a very
nice university, so I think it has a lot of attraction to a lot of people, but harsh winters
might be a negative factor for some people.
And then throughout my research I've kind of found that people tend to migrate within countries
rather than overseas, can you just talk a bit about that?
That's right, even with climate migration a lot of people move internally.
It takes a lot of resources for people to move you know across borders.
And also you know visa regulations and you know border policies, data people from moving
across borders, they could get arrested if they go without a visa and things like that.
So most of the migration associated with climate change will be internal.
And then can you talk a bit about like building resilience and creating adaptation plans and
then in particular like listening to traditional knowledge when we're thinking about climate
resilience?
So many countries have already come up with their adaptation plans, some least developed
countries were actually given assistance by the UN to develop their adaptation plans.
Whether many countries are actually incorporating indigenous knowledge and talking to people
is questionable, but that it's really important if we are serious about building our resilience
and learning from our past experience.
It's very important to listen to those who have that knowledge.
And then you talked about how climate migration and change are a global problem with local
impacts, can you just expand on that a bit?
So when I say it's a global problem, I mean everybody, every state is contributing to
the problem, every country is emitting greenhouse gases and all the gases are accumulating
in the atmosphere and cause damage several years down the line.
But the impacts are very localized.
So just because the US is emitting doesn't mean that the localized populations in Wisconsin
will not have the impact.
So everybody as I said will be impacted by climate change.
But those greenhouse gas emissions will also cause damage thousands and thousands of miles
away where these small island states are disproportionately affected as well.
And then what are local impacts look like?
So we are already experiencing, you know, the winters are very different from what we are
used to, less snow, right, less precipitation, more extreme weather.
So the summers will be warmer, winters will be warmer as well.
We will also experience more flooding, which will also have an impact on farming, you know,
things like that when it's too warm, some of the pests won't die, which will also have
an impact on the farming community as well, yeah.
And then we previously talked about the impacts of like climate migration, so resource scarcity
and complex negative sentiments against foreigners and dwindling resources.
Could you just talk a bit about all those things?
Sure.
So if you think about the negative perception of foreigners and migrants, you know, there
is a negative connotation in the minds of the people that these migrants are coming
to take our jobs away, take our resources away.
So on the one hand you have that, on the other hand, resources are getting scarce as
a result of climate change.
So when more people are looking or trying to get the same resources, obviously there
will be resource scarcity.
And there is some information out there that resource scarcity could lead to the next wave
of conflict, especially lack of water.
So desertification is a big problem in many parts of the world, especially Africa.
So that could lead to, you know, crop failures, less water, and maybe conflict as well.
Thank you.
And then we talked before about how climate change is a collective action problem and
that everyone must work together.
Could you just talk a bit about that?
Sure.
So because every state, no matter how big or small they are, is contributing to the problem,
every state should work together to address that because even if the US cuts down its
greenhouse gas emissions and everybody else continued to do the same without reducing
their emissions, then whatever US does will not be very effective.
So every state must work together because it's a collective action problem to solve the problem
as well.
And then if there's like one thing people in Madison can do to try to fight climate
changes or anything in particular you recommend them doing.
One thing, maybe reduce our waste and consumption because our carbon footprint is huge.
There are little things we can do without having a big sort of drastic change on our
lifestyles.
Food waste is a big issue and also our consumption levels, especially electronics.
I think electronic waste is a big issue, adding to climate change as well.
So think about whether we need when we go to buy the next sort of the latest iPhone or
the laptop or whatever.
Just think whether it's necessary for us right now.
And also what happens to the stuff that we no longer use, where do they go, right?
So educating ourselves and also cutting down our consumption I think would be important.
Thank you.
And do you think we'll see an increase in climate migration in the next few years?
I think it's inevitable as these consequences become worse.
I think climate migration will increase as a result.
And it will be in the millions if you look at the global picture.
And then my last question is just there's no terminology or legal framework to go into
climate refugees.
Can you just talk a bit about that?
Sure.
So if you look at the legal framework governing refugees right now it's confined to political
refugees.
There's a very specific definition of refugees in the Geneva Convention and you have to establish
persecution based on certain factors like your national origin, political opinion, etc.
So climate migration or climate refugees, which is not a legal term, will not fall within
that definition.
So currently if people are forced to move across borders because of climate change, they will
not be covered by the Geneva Convention.
So currently there is a legal sort of gap when it comes to climate refugees.
Is there anything else you want to talk about or expand on today?
So I think paying attention to the problem, realizing that nobody is going to escape the
consequences of climate change and also the fact that the decisions we make here will have
repercussions thousands of miles away like small island states and people who are living
there because they will be the ground zero of climate change because they might lose
everything they have including their country.
So we don't really know where those people will go and what will happen to those countries.
So it's important for us to realize that the decisions we take will have repercussions
thousands of miles away.
And then is there any questions you have?
I don't have any questions.
And do you think I should redo the first two so she's looking at me or do you think it
wasn't that diff rack?
It's probably okay if you wanted to do the introduction is fine.
Okay, I'll just do the first full question.
Okay.
Can you just tell me a bit about your work and your research and then a bit about the
wiki working group?
So I look at the link between human rights and environmental issues and how human rights
framework would be beneficial for environmental issues.
And my work in Viki is part of the working group on climate migration.
We want to see why and whether people are moving to Wisconsin because of climate change.
There is some anecdotal evidence that people are moving to the Midwest because of climate
change but we don't know for sure.
So we want to do a more scientific study of people who have moved to Wisconsin especially
to see why they moved and where the climate change was the reason.
Thank you.
Okay.
Thank you for answering all those questions.
No problem.
Great.
Did you go well?
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Okay, whenever you're ready, you can give it a try.
Okay.
And now how about we're going to go back to your computer.
Okay.
Beautiful.
Okay.
And then just chat for like 30 seconds doesn't have to be about anything in particular.
Okay.
Whenever you're ready.
You can even say you're going for lunch.
Right.
Yes.
Okay.
Professor.
Yeah.
I've been reading about the plastics tree and also reading the tree itself.
So I was wondering how do plastics end up in the ocean or how do so many people just don't
that.
Yeah.
And sometimes the, you know, the ships discharge them to which they're not supposed to do.
Yeah.
So I go for lunch now.
Just talk to each other.
Yeah.
Okay.
Then I go for lunch.
I'm going to go across to the education building.
Okay.
Yeah.
Not too far.
Yeah.
But they have good choice.
Yeah.
That's good.
Thank you.
So whenever you're ready, I'm recording.
You can just walk down to Hannah.
I haven't actually come this way for a long time.
Whenever you're ready.
Okay.
Don't do my office.
Okay.
And actually, I'm sorry.
Can we do it one more time?
It was my fault.
I messed up.
Oh.
And would you feel, I sometimes feel more comfortable if they're like carrying something.
If you have like a binder or something like that.
It might help you feel more, like natural.
Yeah.
Sometimes it just talks to feel.
I don't know.
You know, people always forget how to walk.
Which I would, I don't know how to walk.
Yeah.
So then whenever you're ready, come on down.
Okay.
Great.