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The Democratic primary for governor starts to get negative, and one candidate turns to

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national live streams to raise money.

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Not everyone's happy about it.

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This is Inside Wisconsin Politics.

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I'm Sean Johnson here with Anya Van Wechtendank and Rich Kramer in Eau Claire.

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Hey, gang.

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Hey, Sean.

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So, I want to start this discussion with a simple question.

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I think a lot of people probably associate political campaigns with negative attacks.

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Candidates run for office.

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They attack their opponents.

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So, Anya, I'm wondering, why is it noteworthy that here in the middle of summer, we have

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overt negative attacks in this Democratic primary?

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Yeah, you know, I think for the last couple weeks, months, there have been some snipes,

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what I might call sort of a Midwestern-nice approach to trying to get negative.

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This is the first week that we got, you know, a press release from a candidate explicitly

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saying, my opponent has done something bad.

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I am going to do something great, and that was Mandela Barnes calling out Sarah Rodriguez,

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a former lieutenant governor calling out a current lieutenant governor over donations

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that she received while she was in the assembly.

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And essentially trying to suggest that she is viable, that he is not, so making an issue

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of this in a much more explicit way.

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So, a little bit of a shot across the bow, six weeks out from the midterm, to really

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kind of start to make these more explicit points.

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Rich, I think this kind of pales by comparison from attacks you would see in national politics

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right now for sure and in past Wisconsin campaigns.

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Have you seen anything like this yet this summer?

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Not really, I mean, as Anya mentioned, these have been pretty mild, and I guess if we're

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thinking about, you know, boneless buffalo wings, these would be the ranch and the blue

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cheese type of attacks that we've seen thus far.

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We're starting to get into the actual, you know, Frank's red-hot kind of territory,

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but even still, it's pretty tame.

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What I was thinking about is the earlier veiled criticisms that we heard, like, during the

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democratic convention or something, most people aren't really tuned in to this race yet.

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That is your regular voter, but the people that might be getting these communications

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from the candidates could be, you know, fellow politicians looking to endorse one of the six

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candidates in the race could also be messaging out to money groups or donors.

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I mean, that's speculation, but really, unless you're really tuned in, you wouldn't be able

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to connect the dots between some of the attacks we've seen until this moment between the candidates

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when they're talking about electability or first-time politician, et cetera.

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You'd really have to do some homework to find out, and now it's a little more blatant.

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Right, so you would have to know, like, a convention, for example, when Kaldoroy says,

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we can't have anybody without experience stepping in here at this time.

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She's, you know, we kind of know who she's referring to, but she's not saying it.

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Francesco Hong saying, you know, voters can detect BS.

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I don't know, I suppose she could be saying that about everybody but her.

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But this is, like, a candidate against another candidate.

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So I guess I'm wondering, what does it say about Mandela Barnes and Sarah Rodriguez right

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now that the attack is coming from Mandela Barnes against Sarah Rodriguez?

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And by the way, she responded in kind.

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Absolutely, right.

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It was kind of a forceful exchange of words.

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So then her response was essentially, you were in for Senate and lost.

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I ran for Lieutenant Governor and won.

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And so, again, them fighting words.

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That's a little bit not quite Midwest nice.

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So I think it tells us a couple of things.

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One, it says that Sarah Rodriguez is considered to be a serious contender, right?

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You don't need to take down somebody who has nowhere to come down from.

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Another thing is that Mandela Barnes is really trying to make utility rates a kind

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of central platform.

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And so using this particular thing, donations around utility rates is also a way

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to kind of draw attention to himself.

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And then I think the third thing is, you know, voters are pretty checked out,

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even though, again, we are less than six weeks away from the primary.

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Absentee ballots have already started being sent out.

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But there's like a way that these candidates need to be drawing contrast

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between themselves in a crowded race where there's not super strong distinctions, right?

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On the sort of the major issues, they're relatively unified.

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And so this is also a way of like distinguishing in terms of lane.

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So he didn't go after, for example, Francesca Hong, who is a little bit more

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on his wing of the Democratic Party.

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He went after somebody who's a little bit more moderate.

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And so it's a way of, I think, again, trying to draw starker distinctions

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between lanes in this race, not just between individual candidates.

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Yeah, I'm still trying to make sense of the lanes in this race.

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I mean, I kind of have a sense of it, but I wonder if they are feeling it out, too.

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And that is kind of the way I read it, too, is that Mandela Barnes probably feels

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like I'm not going to win over the Francesca Hong supporters, necessarily.

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But those Rodriguez supporters, they might be my people.

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One in a crowded primary, you're fighting over the same voters.

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You're fighting over Democrats, right?

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And so you also, it's the kind of thing where a few thousand votes can be the difference

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between winning and not.

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It's more competitive in certain ways than a general and to like the contours

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of what competition looks like in the primary is also going to look different.

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Rich.

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And this kind of reminds me of something I heard from the campaign strategist back

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in 2022.

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This was the Senate race between Mandela Barnes and Ron Johnson.

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Ron Johnson's polling numbers, you know, approval ratings weren't super high.

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And this this person who was a Republican campaign consultant said

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Johnson doesn't need to improve his numbers.

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He just needs to hurt and bring down the numbers of Barnes.

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So in a primary like this, that might be part of the calculus.

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Like if someone seems to be, whether it be from internal polling or whatever,

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getting some ground and your campaign doesn't like that, try to knock them down a bit.

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So I guess wonder if this is kind of uncorking the bottle.

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So to speak, you know, like, is this going to be the new norm?

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Now that a fight started, is it okay for Democrats to say, well, you know, I didn't

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start it, but but I got to finish it now or they or they see sort of the urgency

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of the primary coming up and if they want to stand out, do they have to attack?

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Is there any signs that that's happening?

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Well, it's a little bit of a calculation because, you know, on the one hand,

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negative attacks can get you more attention.

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If you're like kind of sassy on social media that tends to resonate a little bit

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more, but at the same time, you don't want to weaken fellow Democrats terribly

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because ultimately they're going to go up against presumably Tom Tiffany in

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November for what is going to be a close race, like a general election in

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Wisconsin is always going to be close.

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And so you want to kind of weaken your opponents enough that you can get

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across the finish line, but not so much that you kind of leave your entire party

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susceptible to potentially Tom Tiffany picking up what you've already said and

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running with it.

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Rich, what do you say? Yeah, it's it's I agree 100% and I mean, no matter who

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the Democratic candidate is, it would be surprising if the entirety of the

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party doesn't try to rally around them because this race is pretty critical

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for them as they're they're hoping, you know, the best case scenario would be a

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trifecta where they win the state assembly state Senate and keep the

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governorships. So maybe that's also why the attacks have been kind of mild.

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But whoever it is, that bad blood will likely magically disappear at least

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publicly after the August primary.

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So Anya, there was a story that you covered this week involving Francesco

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Hong's fundraising strategy here.

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It was at the end of the fundraising period, by the way, where she went on a

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couple of national livestreams to raise money.

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Tell us about who she talked to and why is that significant?

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Yeah, so she went on to on Monday, one was Mike from PA, who's sort of a

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progressive streamer aligned with the Democratic Socialists of America.

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He has a pretty big following.

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And then she went on with Hassan Piker, who's arguably one of the biggest

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political streamers online.

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And he's become something of a kingmaker or perhaps attempted kingmaker on the

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left of American politics.

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And he's appeared with a number of DSA aligned or sort of leftist politicians.

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And so she went on with him.

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It was about an hour and a half appearance.

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It was sort of fun and chatty.

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They talked about politics, but they also ate Korean food and they talked about

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merchandise and they talked about whether they should erect a statue of Scott Walker

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for people to walk around and slap when they have big feelings.

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So it was this really, you know, it's a very different kind of appearance than

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might occur sort of here on PBS Wisconsin or WPR.

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But that was this kind of approach to, according to Francesca Hong, meeting

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different types of voters, more disaffected voters, the type of people who keep

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these streams going.

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Again, perhaps very different voters than our our our our our audience.

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But at the same time, Hassan Piker has said numerous very controversial things

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in the past, things about Israel in particular that has offended some Jewish

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communities. And so there's also been a response.

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She ended the day having raised about $92,000 from those two different streams.

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Hassan Piker has said now he's going to come out to Wisconsin and campaign with

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her. But at the same time, there's been this kind of pushback from fellow Democrats

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and others saying, why would you appear with somebody who has said XYZ in the past?

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And and so like you did see some attack there from David Crowley kind of like

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saying, you should just you shouldn't go on here, right?

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I mean, essentially.

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Yeah, he said those comments are beyond the pale.

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And you know, I should perhaps specify what they were.

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So he said, for example, 911 was deserved.

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And he says that he was referring to this idea that America's foreign policy

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actions have consequences.

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And then again, a number of his comments about Israel and Zionism has has sort of

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been seen as conflating Jewish Americans, Zionists, this kind of thing.

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And so I spoke with, for example, Ann Jacobs, who's the co-chair of the Jewish

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caucus of the Wisconsin Democratic Party, who was really kind of appalled by the

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fact that Francesca Hong would go alongside this person and said that, you

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know, should Hong receive the nomination in November, she feels like she's going

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to have a lot of work to do to bring Jewish Democrats kind of into the ballot

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box to make sure that a Democrat can still win.

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And again, you know, I reached out to the Hong campaign for comment and they

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said, essentially, we are willing to meet with just about anyone to share our

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vision if we don't go on these types of platforms that creates a vacuum that,

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you know, conservative messaging can instead go to.

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So they are trying to create this sort of big tent.

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Some of the concern from other Democrats is who all should be in the big tent.

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And how much did she raise in a day?

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$92,000, $57,000 from Hasanpaker or from that stream.

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And, you know, for somebody who's watched those streams, they kind of know what to

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expect for somebody who doesn't, it's a little busy on those streams, is it not?

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Yeah, as a, you know, a public radio girly, I will say, it was a little bit

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stimulating to have that kind of thing going.

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But I think people who are younger than me, like this is how they are getting a

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lot of their, their news and information.

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And again, in this kind of funny, cheeky way.

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All right.

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What do you think, Chad?

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I don't know.

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Is that how it's done?

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All right, fam.

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Rich, Rich Kramer.

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Uh, what are Republicans saying about this, uh,

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appearance there by Francesca Hong?

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They're saying a lot.

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They're, uh, they're framing it as, you know, this is the entire

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Democratic Party lurching to the left towards these, what they call

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dangerous ideas and comments.

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Um, so they've, they've been very critical of Hong.

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But again, they're conflating this to, uh, to try to say that all

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Democrats are essentially Hasanpaker fans and they support everything that he's

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ever said, uh, which is obviously an exaggeration, but that seems to be the

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way you do it in politics when you're trying to bring down the other side.

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And we'll get a sense in the middle of July, July 15th, are when fundraising

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reports are due for the first half of this year.

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So you'll see not only that fundraising, but everybody else is fundraising up

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through that point and, you know, you'll get a real sense of who's got

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formidable campaign right before the campaign wraps up.

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Essentially we're going to be, uh, in a very compressed primary campaign here.

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Rich Tom Tiffany, the Republican candidate for governor is, uh, had the

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benefit of not having a real contested primary on his side.

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And he's getting a correspondence now from the president of the United

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States about disaster declaration.

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Um, what happened there?

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It was really interesting.

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So, um, President Donald Trump used his, uh, his personal social media

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site, Truth Social, um, to announce that Wisconsin has been approved for around

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22 and a half million dollars in disaster relief aid.

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Uh, this is tied to the storms that we saw earlier this year, the big time

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flooding, other kinds of damage that really hit local governments pretty hard.

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So he made this announcement, which is not unusual, but he didn't mention

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governor Ebers once.

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In fact, he said that the first call that he made was to Tom Tiffany, who he

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also mentioned, I endorsed and he kind of re upped that.

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Uh, Trump also essentially applauded every Republican in the congressional

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delegation and didn't mention a single Democrat from Wisconsin, even though, uh,

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governor Tony Evers and, um, people like Tammy Baldwin and the rest of the

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delegation sent letters in May asking for this assistance.

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They were asking for 27 million dollars.

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So, um, it almost seemed like the president was treating Tiffany, like he's

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already the governor and that T that Evers is already kind of an afterthought.

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So that was, that was pretty interesting to see and that the Evers

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administration essentially doesn't know the detail, at least when you talk to

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them, they didn't know the details of the funding.

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You reached out to the White House press office and had a series of questions

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for them about the details and they had a very brief response to you.

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That's right.

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I wanted to, I asked, you know, when might this money becoming?

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What type of aid because there's aid from the, from FEMA that goes to

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businesses or governments or individuals?

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I said, so those were the questions I asked and they just said, we refer you

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to the truth, which means to the president's post.

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Um, so they didn't have any additional information.

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All right.

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So we had two very big Supreme Court decisions, U.S.

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Supreme Court's decisions this week, which were national news, but I think it's

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fair to say there are some Wisconsin angles in there versus this, this

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birthright citizenship decision, Rich, I think this was widely expected that the

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court would rule against President Trump's executive order and say that, you

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know, birthright citizenship is protected by the U.S.

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Constitution, but there are Republicans and I mean, noteworthy

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Republicans in Wisconsin who are saying, we got to do something about this.

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Yeah, to, to, to borrow Anya's term, big feelings.

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There were big feelings from some Republicans in Wisconsin.

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Congressman Derrick Van Orden basically said that the Constitution's

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14th Amendment was aimed at guaranteeing citizenship to freed slaves and not for

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children of illegal immigrants.

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He said the ruling undermines the integrity of American citizenship and

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that Congress has to do something about it with it being declared unconstitutional,

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at least the executive order.

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It's kind of unclear what that would look like.

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Congressman Tony Weed, another Republican, said that, you know, this

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amendment wasn't intended for what it's being used for today.

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There's all this talk of birth tourism, where the idea is that people that are

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pregnant, you know, women that are pregnant from other countries come here,

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have a baby strictly so that they can get that child citizenship automatically.

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One of the more, I guess, aggressive comments came from 7th Congressional

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District Republican candidate Michael Alfonso.

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He's the son-in-law of Sean Duffy, the U.S.

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Transportation Secretary.

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He talked about how his newborn baby can trace her ancestry, quote,

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back to before the Revolutionary War and that the ruling essentially is telling

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people that children like his are not equally as American to, quote,

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Chinese spies, anchor babies.

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So a lot of, a lot of thoughts coming from some on the right.

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And Anya, there was this other Supreme Court decision involving national

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parties and how much they can raise and spend.

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You said it would export the Wisconsin model.

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What do you mean?

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Well, so here in Wisconsin, since about 2015, we have had a rule in the

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book that says that our state political parties can raise and spend as much money

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as they want in political races.

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You've actually reported on the fact that this was a Republican law that in

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recent years, Democrats have made very good use of, in particular, in our

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enormous Supreme Court races, right?

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Democrats, for example, for the election of Janet Protasseo, it spent $10 million

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on that campaign and that sort of unleashed these flagates.

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Well, now as of this Supreme Court decision, this will be the case at the

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national level, at the federal level.

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So the national political parties are in CC, DLCC, these kinds of organizations.

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They can spend as much as they want on these races in coordination with

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campaigns.

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And so essentially it's doing away with a major cap on campaign finance

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regulations that, you know, people I've spoken to have said, as in Wisconsin,

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so now we'll go on the nation.

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Yeah.

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And I know the Wisconsin law, everybody thought for sure, this is going to help

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Republicans that ended up being helpful to Democrats here.

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We'll see what happens with this change at the national level and open the

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floodgates for us to have record breaking expensive elections.

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It seems like every year it certainly did.

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That's all the time we have for today.

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Thanks for joining us.

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Our colleagues, Zach Schultz, will be back next week.

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This has been Inside Wisconsin Politics.

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Be sure to follow us on pbswisconsin.org, wpr.org YouTube or wherever you get your

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podcasts.