Wisconsin Republicans convene a special session on gerrymandering and nothing really happens,
but was it, what is it, sorry about that, Wisconsin Republicans convene a special session
on gerrymandering and nothing really happens, but what does it mean that they kept the session
open plus another key to key senator retires and the race for governor picks up steam.
This is inside Wisconsin politics. I'm Sean Johnson here with my colleagues,
Anya Ben-Wagtendank, Zach Schultz, and Rich Kramer in Eau Claire. Hey, everyone.
Hey, Sean. Hey. So, Anya, I think there's actually a lot to kind of pick apart in terms
of why Republicans did what they did with this session and what this issue means to
the parties this year, but first for people who have not experienced the drama of a special
session, I think maybe they hear that word special and assume it is kind of a big deal.
What's it actually like in the room where this happens? Yeah, I mean, so with regular sessions,
I think something that not a lot of people know is that there are very few surprises
during a regular session, right? If something is coming to the floor, that means the majority
wants it there. Generally speaking, we sort of know what's going to happen. With a special
session, and especially this time around where Republicans hadn't signaled in advance
that they hated the idea, there was really an open question of exactly what was going
to happen on that day. So going into it, I kind of needed to be in two places at once.
I needed to be in both the Assembly and the Senate, and then thankfully Assembly leadership
sent out a message saying, we're going to keep this open, but that's so that we can
have negotiations. Okay, so that signals that like maybe I don't need to be in the Assembly.
So we go over to the Senate. That's where all of the reporters are waiting to see what
exactly is going to happen in the Senate. And then there was just a lot of waiting
around. Only Democrats were showing up. Finally, Democrats hold a press conference to kind
of criticize their colleagues across the aisle saying they're not doing anything. Republican
leaders show up and say, we too are leaving the session open. And so the end result is
that it was a whole lot of waiting around for nothing, but the nothing could become something
if and when they reached sort of negotiations with the governor and then reconvene at some
point in the future.
And I can tell you because we did team coverage on this one in the Assembly, it was a whole
lot of milling about would be the way I describe it. I don't think they even had gavels this
time, which feels like it's really kind of pretty pretty chill in there. So, okay, the
special session was not all that dramatic, but the important thing is this thing is technically
open. So Zach, I guess my question is, why is that? I'm maybe it's just muscle memory,
but I just am used to this Republican legislature being pretty comfortable telling this governor,
don't tell us what to do.
Well, there's only one of two reasons why to keep it open. One, because maybe they actually
want to do something and be good to their word and negotiate and try and pass this constitutional
amendment. Or two, the optics of keeping it open are important to their base and their
voters because redistricting and gerrymandering is an important thing. And especially this
time around, it's Republican voters who understand, oh, this is why we're potentially losing
the Senate and we lost a bunch of race in the seat. It doesn't feel good to be on this
end of it. And so maybe since both sides have felt the effects of when it's not in your
favor, that perhaps there's an idea of, hey, let's come to a compromise and try and resolve
this.
Rich, what do you think? Is this a real session here? Could something actually happen?
I suppose it could. This, there's been a lot of surprises in the, this session and the
end of the last session for me. I started working at WPR in 2011 about and, you know,
I'm used to seeing Gavilan Gavilan out, essentially saying thanks, but no thanks from the Republicans
saying that to Governor Tony Evers. But we've got these new state legislative maps, you
know, control of the Senate is a big question mark after the November election. So they're
just acting differently. What it means? I don't know what happens. I really don't
know.
You know, coming back to the optics that you mentioned there, I feel like that is probably
a big factor. You know, whatever ends up being decided here, just thinking back to 2024,
which was the first year that we had elections under these new, more competitive legislative
maps. And I get to edit a bunch of stories from reporters around the state. And I swear
the number one thing I heard in every story from these candidates in these contested districts,
these 50 50 districts was voters want candidates who will work across the aisle and not, you
know, get into these fights in Madison, Wisconsin. So if you're trying to do what's best for
those candidates right now, why not keep it open? You know, why not keep that an option
for them to at least talk about? Anya, did you get the sense that the governor kind
of saw that too with the statement that he put out after this session? It was pretty
like get going, you know, get yourselves in gear here.
The statement that said there is actually nothing to negotiate while we are wondering
whether he and Republicans are in the middle of negotiations around this language. Yeah,
it does kind of raise the question of what those negotiations will look like. And to what
extent this is about sort of a messaging war going into this election year. And one of
the things that he also said in that statement was, you know, lawmakers will have to go on
the record about their feeling about gerrymandering. And so if they don't, if they don't hold this
session, if they don't go to the floor, that is a statement. And so really trying to, again,
kind of put the onus on Republicans who are especially in the Senate quite vulnerable
right now to make the point to their voters where they stand on this issue.
I want to play a skeptic here for one more minute here as to why they might not want to
do this. This is a Republican legislature. We've been talking about how the Supreme
Court has this liberal majority that could be there for years. The resolution that the
governor is proposing just says basically, districts shall not provide a disproportionate
advantage partisan gerrymandering is prohibited. It's pretty thin. Who's going to interpret
that if they passed it? Well, there's only two ways to interpret it. One is they actually
negotiate state law that gives a definition for what that means. That could be the negotiations
happening is a parallel bill if that was actually going to be resolved through the legislature
and the governor. But otherwise, it's going to be the Supreme Court. And ultimately,
no matter what gets passed, it'll be the Supreme Court because these would be added to the
Wisconsin Constitution. This is not just a law. This would be a constitutional amendment
and it would create this big language that does not have definitions so far in state
law. And that really would be a liberal Supreme Court, more than likely, coming back to say,
well, this is what we determined to be partisan gerrymandering. And this is what we think
is an advantage for partisans.
Rich, what happens when you invite a court to start talking about statistics and mathematics?
Oh, you know, like a three year court trial, I'm exaggerating. But what also happens is the
courts have generally not wanted to touch this, this claim, this partisan gerrymandering claim
from the US Supreme Court to the Wisconsin Supreme Court. They've just wanted to avoid it. And if
we look back to when the legislative maps passed by Republicans in 2011 were struck down,
they didn't do it. They didn't take up the partisan gerrymandering claim. They got around
that by looking at contiguity of districts, whether or not one district has a piece in another.
So that was, in a way, a technicality. They did get to the same place that the plaintiffs wanted,
which was new maps, but it took a bit of a roundabout way to get there.
Okay, before we move on from this, can we just kind of explore the possibility that maybe there
would be a scenario where Republicans really would look at the situation and say, hey,
let's pass this. Let's make a deal with the governor. Let's say it's November after the election.
How might that play out?
I think the biggest variable is who wins in November because member constitutional
amendments need two consecutive sessions. So this legislature can pass it all the way through
December 31st, but then the next legislature, which will be made up in November elections,
will determine whether it gets passed again. And so that's the key element there.
Is there a scenario where the winners in the fall indicate we would like to actually pass
this? And so there's incentive to do it in the lame duck? Possibly.
If they don't have the majority, maybe they say this is their best outcome.
Possibly. Okay. Well, we've already seen the current map kind of having an effect on the
upcoming races here, especially in the state Senate where we know, you know, majority control
is going to hinge on who wins for state Senate seats. Rich, you're sitting in one of those
districts right now, I believe, and there was some news there this week. What happened?
Well, first, let me take you on a tour of the 31st Senate district. So what happened was
one of the Republicans in a race for the 31st or the Republican in the race for the 31st Senate
district announced that he's dropping out. He's not going to run against Democrat Jeff Smith.
So this was Senator Jesse James. And he was in a different district, but because of the map
redrawing, he was going to have to face Smith. So two incumbents, but now you've got one incumbent.
You've got the Democrat in the race, who's already represented the district, even though
it's changed a little bit. So big picture, when the maps were redrawn, there's four
Senate districts that are deemed competitive, that it's really kind of a coin flip or just about.
And we've seen retirements from three of the Republicans in four of those districts.
And, you know, that in and of itself is a big signal for how people are feeling about the fall
election. So I guess, in a way, it complicates Republicans' chances of holding the Senate majority
and definitely gives some fuel to Democrats who are getting pretty excited about November.
So we have elections that are going to have to take place before we get the answers to these
questions. But Anya, I would suspect that Senate Republicans would have preferred to run these
races in these, you know, three of these four key seats with Senators Hutton, with Senator
James, with Senator Wengard. You know, what position are they in now?
I mean, it's interesting. Like, there's a mix of reasons why these lawmakers have said that
they are stepping down. Again, that has Rich just alluded to Democrats are trying to spin this as,
you know, they're kind of running scared. But it is, it raises sort of the question of who will
then run in their spots. So Jesse James is a really interesting example. He has worked
quite a bit across the aisle. He's been a real kind of leader on criminal justice issues.
One of my favorite sort of fun facts is that he and Madison Democrat Sheila Stubbs are like
best friends and they do a lot of work together. He's done a lot on mental health. And so he is
a really different kind of Republican than you might see in, let's say, suburban Milwaukee or
something like this. And so the question is, who then comes out? I think Zach has made this point
before that when you're in the minority and when you are kind of pushing up against a less
likely scenario, more sort of fringe candidate or people further to the left or the right
tend to be the ones who come forward. And so there will be a really interesting question to see who
is entering these races in November and what that does for who's wanting to vote in November.
We already have our first dancer in this particular race, the first Republican to announce they're
going to run. Her middle name is Maga Dance. And she put that on all of her campaign signs two
years ago when she ran and lost an assembly race. And you cannot connect yourself literally more
closely by putting your name and making it close to Trump's Maga movement. And that is who is running
in that Republican district, which is now drawn to be Democrat has a Democrat incumbent. And
as we've talked about over and over on this show, you don't have to look any more past what the
candidates do. And when they are not running, that tells you they know the environment they're
up against. Every one of them will have their own individual story. But the larger picture
gives us a pretty clear roadmap of what Republicans think of their odds in the Senate specifically.
But to go back to Robin Voss holding the assembly for all those years, we saw in a number of elections
in 18 and in 22 where top of the ballot, Tammy Baldwin or Tony Evers would win some of those
Republican assembly seats and Republicans down ballot won them. And then part was because
incumbents name recognition fund raising ability. And when you have people drop out,
you lose all of that. You don't have the name. You don't have the person that knows how to knock
the doors that has the community connections. And they don't raise as much money. They really
do is put them in a big hole. So I guess against that backdrop, you have these signals being sent
by Republicans dropping out of these races. You have the Supreme Court blowout of a couple of a
week ago, I guess now. It's not at this moment looking great for them. So why would Republican
Congressman Tom Tiffany, the candidate for governor, pick now to come out with the seven-figure
ad buy in the governor's race? He's trying to reset the landscape. Absolutely. This is the perfect
time to reframe it coming out of that Supreme Court race and say we've got four months until
the August primary and then a few months after that and into November. And he is the lone Republican
out there. So it's a positive ad. If you watch the ad, it's not hitting on anyone. It's talking
about where his values and where he grew up and on a dairy farm and what he's done for his experience
and how much he loves the state. Those are all things that play really well statewide. And when
he has to boost his name recognition, if you look at the polling, it's still 65% of Republicans
weren't sure. And he was really the only major candidate left. So he has to win his base and
there's room for moderates and independents who especially looking at that national landscape
may say, well, if there's going to be Democrats in one chamber, well, who's going to run the state?
He has an opportunity to reset his agenda, give himself a little distance from Trump,
whose name right now is not very popular in Wisconsin among independents, young people and a lot of
other groups. So this is a time for him to own the stage by himself. Well, the Democrats don't
have money to go on the air in a seven-way primary. A rear window to run positive ads. We know he
likes old fashions and the Packers and all this cliche Wisconsin stuff he says about himself.
Rich, there was another message in there in the Tom Tiffany ad that caught your eye.
Yeah, there was. He basically was saying that he'd fight against Wall Street buying up
residential homes and push back against big tech bulldozing farmland for data centers.
Those are talking points that are more akin to something you'd hear out of Democrats
in recent years. So that is really interesting. And to pivot off of what Zach was saying,
Tiffany's trying to define himself before one of the Democrats define him as, or they have already,
but until the whole connection with President Trump sticks more. So he's getting out ahead of it.
And also, I've seen a lot of conservatives on social media say, this ad won him the election.
Well, that's an exaggeration. But we've seen people tend to like kind of boring folks in general
elections. Governor Evers is an example. So maybe Tiffany's trying to make that happen and build
that reputation for himself. Sean, I want to ask you about this because I got the sense that he was
trying to rebrand himself as a folksy guy. Now, if you look back at the history of candidates
winning elections, you look at Evers and Tommy Thompson. I mean, what's your impression of
what attributes do they share in common when it comes to being the every man in Wisconsin and
folksy nature? I think if you just look at right now in Wisconsin politics that Rich said the word
boring, but I think these candidates kind of embrace that though. Tony Evers gives off this
awesucks vibe. That is his brand. Scott Walker once described himself as aggressively normal
when he was running for president. And I think people in other states thought what? But you
know, we know here, yeah, that's what went on the election. Even, you know, like Jim Doyle,
Harvard Law educated, he would kind of drop his R's when he was out on the campaign trail because
he knows what he was going for with that vibe. And so it is something that Tom Tiffany seems to
have going for him that that guy that you could see at a bar talking about sports or you name it.
There was one development in the Democratic primary that I'd like to touch on if we can.
There's still a big primary. There's seven candidates who've been forums that you all have covered.
One of them got a fairly big endorsement in Democratic politics on you. Can you tell us about that?
Yeah. And then I actually also want to turn it back to you. So Calder Roy's got this major
endorsement from, we asked this big education teachers union. And the sort of open question
that I have and that you and I have discussed is how significant is that now? So in the past,
that would have been sort of almost like a king making move. She is certainly really kind of
trying to promote it in part because her polling numbers have been pretty low throughout. So this
could be a last chance, a last ditch effort. But I'm curious what you think compared to again,
like eight years ago, what this endorsement could mean?
Well, I mean, I think Zach, you know, when before we lost a lot of his power with Act 10,
it was a huge endorsement. I think in a Democratic primary, it's something they certainly have to
take note of though. You can't ignore the largest teachers union. To me, it just signals at this
primary that we sort of are expecting to get smaller organically at some point.
Calder Roy's not going to go anywhere when she has the teacher's union on her side. So
that is one that seems like is going to take a little more time to sort out here.
So that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for joining us. This has been Inside
Wisconsin Politics. Be sure to follow us on pbswisconsin.org, wpr.org, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
And that's banter.